RE: Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights?
Here are a couple of links that show the cases in question. One of the stores I found them at is a national chain with 43 stores from California to Ohio. They appear to be widespread and therefore, its reasonable to expect that a lot of them will get built. http://www.storefinity.com/go/silverpcscom/ http://www.ocsystem.com/skyhaw43almi.html It will be interesting to see if in fact they do cause problems. I suspect that Analog cell phone service might well be affected whereas devices using any type of spread spectrum such as digital cell phones and digital mobile phones will probably not be susceptible since the noise should be mostly narrowband clocks. I appreciate the responses I recieved concerning my question. Its been most educational. Best Regards, George Stults -Original Message- From: Jeff Klinger [mailto:jklin...@celectronics.com] Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 10:44 AM To: michael.sundst...@nokia.com; jklin...@celectronics.com; George Stults; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights? With the Home-Built issue, I was keying on the instructions to build available on the internet part, obviously if the systems are offered or marketed for sale whole, or in kit form, then as far as the FCC rules are concerned, it's not considered homebuilt. This has been an issue for as long as I can recall, PC systems, built and sold through mom-and-pop stores, usually slide when it comes to the FCC rules. It's just too difficult for the FCC to pursue each and every issue. I can't speak for the FCC, but my understanding is that the FCC is complaint driven, so if this becomes a problem, someone possibly will complain, and the FCC will get involved, depending on the severity of the problem. Now, if this becomes a major craze and everyone is buying these systems, then the exposure to any problems that exist is far greater, and the probability of the FCC putting a stop to it is far greater. The short-and-simple of it is that it is not legal to sell these systems unless the FCC rules have been applied. The more complex question would then be, What can, and or should, be done about it? And to make this response even longer and more complex, let me ask one more question; How many people build or modify their own systems at home or in the office, and how many problems are actually caused by these systems? Jeff -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of michael.sundst...@nokia.com Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 5:58 AM To: jklin...@celectronics.com; george.stu...@watchguard.com; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights? If they are selling these PC's out of a store, how can they be homebuilt? Michael Sundstrom NOKIA TCC Dallas / EMC ofc: (972) 374-1462 cell: (817) 917-5021 amateur call: KB5UKT -Original Message- From: ext Jeff Klinger [mailto:jklin...@celectronics.com] Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 5:39 PM To: George Stults; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights? George, The method for testing motherboards is intended to be combined with the DoC method of declaring compliance based on individual testing of the components that comprise the full computer system, i.e. Assembled from tested components. The final computer system is still required to meet the FCC Class B limit just as if it was tested, even though it was not. I suppose that a small (extremely small) chance exists that the final system could pass if tested. The loophole here may be the Home-Built devices clause, Title 47 part 15.23. Where the device is not marketed or constructed from a kit. This allows for five or less devices built for personal use without the need for compliance testing (FCC only). Jeff Klinger Director EMC Engineering Compatible Electronics, Inc. Ph: 714-579-0500 Fx: 714-528-8984 http://www.celectronics.com NARTE Certified ATL-0180-E -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of George Stults Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 3:11 PM To: 'emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org' Subject: Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights? Hi Folks, I just walked into three local computer stores (west coast, USA) and found that desktop computers have become art forms. There are computer cases for sale with large plexiglass windows about (10in x12in), some with a fan in the middle of the plexiglass panel, and inside the case, there is a 12 inch long neon lamp, powered from the ATX power supply just like any installable drive. Through the window, one can see the motherboard, CPU heatsink, etc, all illuminated by the Neon light. Its the latest in computer fashion, I suppose. I asked a few questions at the stores and found at there are least 2 manufacturers, and that one can obtain
RE: Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights?
RE: Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights?The problem here is that the DoC method is based on Class B levels for personal computers and peripherals, Class A is categorized under the FCC rules as Verification, not Declaration of Conformity. So, the legal problem would be that the wrong limits were applied. Jeff -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of George Stults Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 11:38 AM To: 'Wagner, John P (John)'; michael.sundst...@nokia.com; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights? Okay then, I think I see the point. Supposing for the moment that an FCC DoC does exist for the modified case, and that it self declares Class A, and they have test results to back it up, Then, the 'legal' problem would lie with the assertion that its being sold at retail outlets for home use. Except of course the manufacturer would say that its not being sold for that purpose, and the retail outlet doesn't know the difference. Ignorance is bli$$. George Stults -Original Message- From: Wagner, John P (John) [mailto:johnwag...@avaya.com] Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 10:52 AM To: michael.sundst...@nokia.com; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org; George Stults Subject: RE: Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights? Importance: High The current FCC rules are pretty clear. For systems assembled from components, the system considered compliant if assembled from compliant components; namely, enclosures, motherboards, power supplies. The peripheral rules also apply. So, if this case or enclosure has been tested and shown to be compliant when used as a component for a system, then all is ok. To be legal, the case should have an FCC DoC. John P. Wagner Regulatory Compliance Mandatory Standards AVAYA Strategic Standards. 1300 W. 120th Ave, Room B3-D16 Westminster, CO 80234-2726 Phone/Fax: (303) 538-4241 johnwag...@avaya.com -- From: George Stults[SMTP:george.stu...@watchguard.com] Reply To: George Stults Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 9:56 AM To: 'michael.sundst...@nokia.com'; 'emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org' Subject:Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights? The cases are being sold as components, although I am sure that any of the stores I visited would sell me an assembled system with the modified plastic-window-style-cases. There is no understanding of emission requirements at the level of the retail outlet. Surely this situation has come up before, where there were easily assembled systems from commercially available components sold for the purpose, that would nevertheless be non-compliant with a high degree of probability. How was it handled in the past? What reasoning can be applied to justify the proposition that the plastic-window-style-cases cannot be legally sold? George Stults -Original Message- From: michael.sundst...@nokia.com [mailto:michael.sundst...@nokia.com] Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 5:58 AM To: jklin...@celectronics.com; George Stults; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights? If they are selling these PC's out of a store, how can they be homebuilt? Michael Sundstrom NOKIA TCC Dallas / EMC ofc: (972) 374-1462 cell: (817) 917-5021 amateur call: KB5UKT -Original Message- From: ext Jeff Klinger [mailto:jklin...@celectronics.com] Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 5:39 PM To: George Stults; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights? George, The method for testing motherboards is intended to be combined with the DoC method of declaring compliance based on individual testing of the components that comprise the full computer system, i.e. Assembled from tested components. The final computer system is still required to meet the FCC Class B limit just as if it was tested, even though it was not. I suppose that a small (extremely small) chance exists that the final system could pass if tested. The loophole here may be the Home-Built devices clause, Title 47 part 15.23. Where the device is not marketed or constructed from a kit. This allows for five or less devices built for personal use without the need for compliance testing (FCC only). Jeff Klinger Director EMC Engineering Compatible Electronics, Inc. Ph: 714-579-0500 Fx: 714-528-8984 http://www.celectronics.com NARTE Certified ATL-0180-E -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
RE: Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights?
RE: Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights?However, the other problem may be that PC's, in general, are DEFINED as a Class B device unless the Manufacturer can show reason otherwise. Those reasons include that the product is NOT sold to the general public such as in mom pop electronics outlet. Thus, the product should have been considered as a Class B device by the manufacturer, tested accordingly, and issued the Declaration of Conformity (DoC). (The TCB route to certification is also available). If the computer has been assembled from certified components, then he/she may issue a DoC based upon the certified components and mark the product accordingly. Without the appropriate FCC Certification mark (or DoC mark), the product would be considered non-compliant and is on the market illegally. This is also a major issue for people like us (on this list) that spend the money to do things correctly and then have to compete with those that do not. my 2-bits worth. John Shinn, P.E. Manager, Lab Operations Sanmina-SCI -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of George Stults Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 11:38 AM To: 'Wagner, John P (John)'; michael.sundst...@nokia.com; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights? Okay then, I think I see the point. Supposing for the moment that an FCC DoC does exist for the modified case, and that it self declares Class A, and they have test results to back it up, Then, the 'legal' problem would lie with the assertion that its being sold at retail outlets for home use. Except of course the manufacturer would say that its not being sold for that purpose, and the retail outlet doesn't know the difference. Ignorance is bli$$. George Stults -Original Message- From: Wagner, John P (John) [mailto:johnwag...@avaya.com] Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 10:52 AM To: michael.sundst...@nokia.com; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org; George Stults Subject: RE: Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights? Importance: High The current FCC rules are pretty clear. For systems assembled from components, the system considered compliant if assembled from compliant components; namely, enclosures, motherboards, power supplies. The peripheral rules also apply. So, if this case or enclosure has been tested and shown to be compliant when used as a component for a system, then all is ok. To be legal, the case should have an FCC DoC. John P. Wagner Regulatory Compliance Mandatory Standards AVAYA Strategic Standards. 1300 W. 120th Ave, Room B3-D16 Westminster, CO 80234-2726 Phone/Fax: (303) 538-4241 johnwag...@avaya.com -- From: George Stults[SMTP:george.stu...@watchguard.com] Reply To: George Stults Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 9:56 AM To: 'michael.sundst...@nokia.com'; 'emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org' Subject:Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights? The cases are being sold as components, although I am sure that any of the stores I visited would sell me an assembled system with the modified plastic-window-style-cases. There is no understanding of emission requirements at the level of the retail outlet. Surely this situation has come up before, where there were easily assembled systems from commercially available components sold for the purpose, that would nevertheless be non-compliant with a high degree of probability. How was it handled in the past? What reasoning can be applied to justify the proposition that the plastic-window-style-cases cannot be legally sold? George Stults -Original Message- From: michael.sundst...@nokia.com [mailto:michael.sundst...@nokia.com] Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 5:58 AM To: jklin...@celectronics.com; George Stults; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights? If they are selling these PC's out of a store, how can they be homebuilt? Michael Sundstrom NOKIA TCC Dallas / EMC ofc: (972) 374-1462 cell: (817) 917-5021 amateur call: KB5UKT -Original Message- From: ext Jeff Klinger [mailto:jklin...@celectronics.com] Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 5:39 PM To: George Stults; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights? George, The method for testing motherboards is intended to be combined with the DoC method of declaring compliance based on individual testing of the components that comprise the full computer system, i.e. Assembled from tested components. The final computer system is still required to meet the FCC Class B limit
RE: Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights?
The capacity for Humans to do stupid things still amazes me after all the years I have been in this business. Neon lights on dash boards, under cars, surrounding license plates sync'd to music to mention a few. That someone would re-create the spark gap noise generator in the guise of a PC chassis should come as no surprise. A 1.5Ghz P4 CPU with inadequate power distribution, no decoupling a Who Fung-Yuck power supply is not noisy enough ???, we now need a new - improved noise source to pollute our crowded spectrum ??? As a visitor from Vulcan once said Beam me up - there is no intelligent life on this planet Michael Taylor Choking on smoke in Colorado -Original Message- From: Wagner, John P (John) [mailto:johnwag...@avaya.com] Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 1:48 PM To: michael.sundst...@nokia.com; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org; George Stults; Ken Javor Subject: RE: Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights? Importance: High Sorry, I mis-spoke. Originally, the intent was to separately recognize CPU boards, power supplies, and enclosures. The requirement for enclosures is not in the rules only CPU boards and power supplies. In answer to the question, there were no specific shielding effectiveness requirements. The enclosure was to be evaluated with one or more fully functional PC enclosed, or alternatively a signal generator. If the device so enclosed met the limit requirments, the enclosure was compliant. Presumably lack of support for the enclosure rules caused the FCC to back off. Now the requirements are on the CPU board whose installation instructions must include any requirements for the use of a metal enclosure, etc. 15.101 and 15.102 describe the conditions for compliance. John P. Wagner Regulatory Compliance Mandatory Standards AVAYA Strategic Standards. 1300 W. 120th Ave, Room B3-D16 Westminster, CO 80234-2726 Phone/Fax: (303) 538-4241 johnwag...@avaya.com -- From: Ken Javor[SMTP:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com] Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 1:18 PM To: Wagner, John P (John); michael.sundst...@nokia.com; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org; George Stults Subject:Re: Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights? Importance: High What is an FCC compliant enclosure? What are the shielding effectiveness requirements? :-) on 7/15/02 12:51 PM, Wagner, John P (John) at johnwag...@avaya.com wrote: The current FCC rules are pretty clear. For systems assembled from components, the system considered compliant if assembled from compliant components; namely, enclosures, motherboards, power supplies. The peripheral rules also apply. So, if this case or enclosure has been tested and shown to be compliant when used as a component for a system, then all is ok. To be legal, the case should have an FCC DoC. John P. Wagner Regulatory Compliance Mandatory Standards AVAYA Strategic Standards. 1300 W. 120th Ave, Room B3-D16 Westminster, CO 80234-2726 Phone/Fax: (303) 538-4241 johnwag...@avaya.com -- From: George Stults[SMTP:george.stu...@watchguard.com] Reply To: George Stults Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 9:56 AM To: 'michael.sundst...@nokia.com'; 'emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org' Subject:Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights? The cases are being sold as components, although I am sure that any of the stores I visited would sell me an assembled system with the modified plastic-window-style-cases. There is no understanding of emission requirements at the level of the retail outlet. Surely this situation has come up before, where there were easily assembled systems from commercially available components sold for the purpose, that would nevertheless be non-compliant with a high degree of probability. How was it handled in the past? What reasoning can be applied to justify the proposition that the plastic-window-style-cases cannot be legally sold? George Stults -Original Message- From: michael.sundst...@nokia.com [ mailto:michael.sundst...@nokia.com mailto:michael.sundst...@nokia.com ] Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 5:58 AM To: jklin...@celectronics.com; George Stults; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights? If they are selling these PC's out of a store, how can they be homebuilt? Michael Sundstrom NOKIA TCC Dallas / EMC ofc: (972) 374-1462 cell: (817) 917-5021 amateur call: KB5UKT -Original Message- From: ext Jeff Klinger [ mailto:jklin...@celectronics.com mailto:jklin...@celectronics.com ] Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 5:39 PM To: George Stults; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights? George, The method for testing motherboards is intended to be combined with the DoC method of declaring
Re: Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights?
RE: Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights?I dont recall seeing a DoC on any of the $28 cases I have purchased for my home built pc's. It is remarkable that the ATX power supplies actually have UL/TUV many of these cases include. Please note that these cases do NOT provide sufficient containment to meet class A (much less class B) without intelligent treatment. It is indeed a big loophole, albeit for a small crowd. IMHE, purchasing a new pc with warranty costs only a little more than a self assembled pc from a heap of parts. This would seem to appeal only to the hobbyist (new age student?) and constitute a very small population. Kyle Ehler (forced retiree - LSI Logic) - Original Message - From: Wagner, John P (John) To: michael.sundst...@nokia.com ; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org ; George Stults Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 12:51 PM Subject: RE: Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights? The current FCC rules are pretty clear. For systems assembled from components, the system considered compliant if assembled from compliant components; namely, enclosures, motherboards, power supplies. The peripheral rules also apply. So, if this case or enclosure has been tested and shown to be compliant when used as a component for a system, then all is ok. To be legal, the case should have an FCC DoC. John P. Wagner
Re: Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights?
But even a CPU board requirement is invalid unless all possible input/output cables are attached, right? on 7/15/02 2:48 PM, Wagner, John P (John) at johnwag...@avaya.com wrote: Sorry, I mis-spoke. Originally, the intent was to separately recognize CPU boards, power supplies, and enclosures. The requirement for enclosures is not in the rules only CPU boards and power supplies. In answer to the question, there were no specific shielding effectiveness requirements. The enclosure was to be evaluated with one or more fully functional PC enclosed, or alternatively a signal generator. If the device so enclosed met the limit requirments, the enclosure was compliant. Presumably lack of support for the enclosure rules caused the FCC to back off. Now the requirements are on the CPU board whose installation instructions must include any requirements for the use of a metal enclosure, etc. 15.101 and 15.102 describe the conditions for compliance. John P. Wagner Regulatory Compliance Mandatory Standards AVAYA Strategic Standards. 1300 W. 120th Ave, Room B3-D16 Westminster, CO 80234-2726 Phone/Fax: (303) 538-4241 johnwag...@avaya.com -- From: Ken Javor[SMTP:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com] Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 1:18 PM To: Wagner, John P (John); michael.sundst...@nokia.com; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org; George Stults Subject:Re: Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights? Importance: High What is an FCC compliant enclosure? What are the shielding effectiveness requirements? :-) on 7/15/02 12:51 PM, Wagner, John P (John) at johnwag...@avaya.com wrote: The current FCC rules are pretty clear. For systems assembled from components, the system considered compliant if assembled from compliant components; namely, enclosures, motherboards, power supplies. The peripheral rules also apply. So, if this case or enclosure has been tested and shown to be compliant when used as a component for a system, then all is ok. To be legal, the case should have an FCC DoC. John P. Wagner Regulatory Compliance Mandatory Standards AVAYA Strategic Standards. 1300 W. 120th Ave, Room B3-D16 Westminster, CO 80234-2726 Phone/Fax: (303) 538-4241 johnwag...@avaya.com -- From: George Stults[SMTP:george.stu...@watchguard.com] Reply To: George Stults Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 9:56 AM To: 'michael.sundst...@nokia.com'; 'emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org' Subject:Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights? The cases are being sold as components, although I am sure that any of the stores I visited would sell me an assembled system with the modified plastic-window-style-cases. There is no understanding of emission requirements at the level of the retail outlet. Surely this situation has come up before, where there were easily assembled systems from commercially available components sold for the purpose, that would nevertheless be non-compliant with a high degree of probability. How was it handled in the past? What reasoning can be applied to justify the proposition that the plastic-window-style-cases cannot be legally sold? George Stults -Original Message- From: michael.sundst...@nokia.com [mailto:michael.sundst...@nokia.com] Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 5:58 AM To: jklin...@celectronics.com; George Stults; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights? If they are selling these PC's out of a store, how can they be homebuilt? Michael Sundstrom NOKIA TCC Dallas / EMC ofc: (972) 374-1462 cell: (817) 917-5021 amateur call: KB5UKT -Original Message- From: ext Jeff Klinger [mailto:jklin...@celectronics.com] Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 5:39 PM To: George Stults; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights? George, The method for testing motherboards is intended to be combined with the DoC method of declaring compliance based on individual testing of the components that comprise the full computer system, i.e. Assembled from tested components. The final computer system is still required to meet the FCC Class B limit just as if it was tested, even though it was not. I suppose that a small (extremely small) chance exists that the final system could pass if tested. The loophole here may be the Home-Built devices clause, Title 47 part 15.23. Where the device is not marketed or constructed from a kit. This allows for five or less devices built for personal use without the need for compliance testing (FCC only). Jeff Klinger Director EMC Engineering Compatible Electronics, Inc. Ph: 714-579-0500 Fx: 714-528-8984 http://www.celectronics.com NARTE Certified ATL-0180-E -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of George Stults Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 3:11 PM To: 'emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org' Subject: Open chassis computers for sale - with neon
RE: EN60950 3rd vs EN60950-1
Richard et al, It is my understanding that IEC/EN/?? 60950-1 is intended to supercede IEC/EN/?? 60950 3rd Edition. This is evidenced by the statement from CENELEC's web site relating to EN60950-1, which is Supersedes EN 60950:2000. The IEC's website provides this statement This first edition of IEC 60950-1 cancels and replaces the third edition of IEC 60950, issued in 1999, and constitutes a technical revision. For specific requirements for particular product variants, other sub-parts (EN60950-xx) would be necessary. BTW, EN60950-21 (remote power feeding) is the only sub-part on record with CENELEC according to their website. In addition to Part 21, the IEC's website also describes Part 22: Equipment installed outdoors and Part 23: Large IT equipment with integral robotics. So, I believe that if products do not apply to any sub-part, then I would presume that sub-part 1 would be the only sub-part that would apply. Comments? Best regards, Ron Pickard rpick...@hypercom.com richwo...@tycoint.com Sent by: To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org owner-emc-pstc@majordocc: mo.ieee.org Subject: RE: EN60950 3rd vs EN60950-1 07/15/02 11:45 AM Please respond to richwoods A couple of months ago, I asked the group if I should be using EN60650-1. The answer was no, until and unless the particular part was published that covered my product. In other words, the new edition is incomplete and subsequent parts will need to be published before it can be used instead of the current edition. Richard Woods Sensormatic Electronics Tyco International -Original Message- From: Brian O'Connell [mailto:boconn...@t-yuden.com] Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 9:25 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: EN60950 3rd vs EN60950-1 In my copy of EN 60950-1:2002, purchased from BSI, the DoP is listed as December 01, 2002. R/S, Brian O'Connell Taiyo Yuden (USA), Inc. -Original Message- From: Ron Pickard [mailto:rpick...@hypercom.com] Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 3:10 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: EN60950 3rd vs EN60950-1 Hi Allen, Thanks for your reply, however, I highly doubt that these products will be obsoleted by then, which is the source of my concern and my query. Also, at some standards purchasing houses, I've noticed that EN60950 3rd Edition has been, or is being, superceded by EN60950-1. This has caused me to ask the question of OJ publication. Best regards, Ron Pickard rpick...@hypercom.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to:
RE: IEEE Conference Proceedings (2000 - 2001)
Mat, I had received the 2001 IEEE Conference Proceedings CD in the original shrink wrap, which was post marked BELGIQUE. I do not know the name of the company that mailed it to me. Regards, Ravinder PCB Development and Design Department IBM Corporation Email: ajm...@us.ibm.com *** Always do right. This will gratify some people and astonish the rest. Mark Twain Aschenberg, Mat Matt.Aschenberg@echosTo: 'bnad...@matrox.com' bnad...@matrox.com, tar.com emc-p...@ieee.org Sent by: cc: owner-emc-pstc@majordoSubject: RE: IEEE Conference Proceedings (2000 - 2001) mo.ieee.org 07/15/2002 11:15 AM Please respond to Aschenberg, Mat Let me clarify... Is there a company sponsoring the distribution of the IEEE conference proceedings, so that they are not approx. $150 each? -Original Message- From:Benoit Nadeau [SMTP:bnad...@matrox.com] Sent:Monday, July 15, 2002 11:44 AM To:Aschenberg, Mat; emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: IEEE Conference Proceedings (2000 - 2001) Bonjour de Montreal, Each year, the IEEE library buys all the documentation issued by International Symposiums of all the IEEE. They then make them available to buy on their web site. The following link will bring you to the Internet pages for the last IEEE EMC Symposiums. Just click Conference proceedings and do a search on electromagnetic compatibility and you will get a list of all they have. You will see the 2000 (Washington) and 2001 (Montreal) symposiums listed on paper or CD-ROM. Regards, http://shop.ieee.org/store/ == Benoît Nadeau, ing., M.ing. (P.Eng., M.Eng) Gérant du Groupe Conformité (Conformity Group Manager) Matrox == 1055, boul St-Régis Dorval (Québec) Canada H9P 2T4 Tel : (514) 822-6000 (2475) Fax : (514) 822-6275 mailto:bnad...@matrox.com http://www.matrox.com == -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Aschenberg, Mat Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 11:18 To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: IEEE Conference Proceedings (2000 - 2001) Hello, In the past the IEEE procedings have been made available to the public. Applied Microfilm sponsored the 40 years for $40. UL sponsored a CD for the few years following. Has anyone seen a CD for the last two years? Mat --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list
RE: Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights?
Sorry, I mis-spoke. Originally, the intent was to separately recognize CPU boards, power supplies, and enclosures. The requirement for enclosures is not in the rules only CPU boards and power supplies. In answer to the question, there were no specific shielding effectiveness requirements. The enclosure was to be evaluated with one or more fully functional PC enclosed, or alternatively a signal generator. If the device so enclosed met the limit requirments, the enclosure was compliant. Presumably lack of support for the enclosure rules caused the FCC to back off. Now the requirements are on the CPU board whose installation instructions must include any requirements for the use of a metal enclosure, etc. 15.101 and 15.102 describe the conditions for compliance. John P. Wagner Regulatory Compliance Mandatory Standards AVAYA Strategic Standards. 1300 W. 120th Ave, Room B3-D16 Westminster, CO 80234-2726 Phone/Fax: (303) 538-4241 johnwag...@avaya.com -- From: Ken Javor[SMTP:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com] Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 1:18 PM To: Wagner, John P (John); michael.sundst...@nokia.com; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org; George Stults Subject: Re: Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights? Importance: High What is an FCC compliant enclosure? What are the shielding effectiveness requirements? :-) on 7/15/02 12:51 PM, Wagner, John P (John) at johnwag...@avaya.com wrote: The current FCC rules are pretty clear. For systems assembled from components, the system considered compliant if assembled from compliant components; namely, enclosures, motherboards, power supplies. The peripheral rules also apply. So, if this case or enclosure has been tested and shown to be compliant when used as a component for a system, then all is ok. To be legal, the case should have an FCC DoC. John P. Wagner Regulatory Compliance Mandatory Standards AVAYA Strategic Standards. 1300 W. 120th Ave, Room B3-D16 Westminster, CO 80234-2726 Phone/Fax: (303) 538-4241 johnwag...@avaya.com -- From: George Stults[SMTP:george.stu...@watchguard.com] Reply To: George Stults Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 9:56 AM To: 'michael.sundst...@nokia.com'; 'emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org' Subject:Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights? The cases are being sold as components, although I am sure that any of the stores I visited would sell me an assembled system with the modified plastic-window-style-cases. There is no understanding of emission requirements at the level of the retail outlet. Surely this situation has come up before, where there were easily assembled systems from commercially available components sold for the purpose, that would nevertheless be non-compliant with a high degree of probability. How was it handled in the past? What reasoning can be applied to justify the proposition that the plastic-window-style-cases cannot be legally sold? George Stults -Original Message- From: michael.sundst...@nokia.com [mailto:michael.sundst...@nokia.com] Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 5:58 AM To: jklin...@celectronics.com; George Stults; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights? If they are selling these PC's out of a store, how can they be homebuilt? Michael Sundstrom NOKIA TCC Dallas / EMC ofc: (972) 374-1462 cell: (817) 917-5021 amateur call: KB5UKT -Original Message- From: ext Jeff Klinger [mailto:jklin...@celectronics.com] Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 5:39 PM To: George Stults; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights? George, The method for testing motherboards is intended to be combined with the DoC method of declaring compliance based on individual testing of the components that comprise the full computer system, i.e. Assembled from tested components. The final computer system is still required to meet the FCC Class B limit just as if it was tested, even though it was not. I suppose that a small (extremely small) chance exists that the final system could pass if tested. The loophole here may be the Home-Built devices clause, Title 47 part 15.23. Where the device is not marketed or constructed from a kit. This allows for five or less devices built for personal use without the need for compliance testing (FCC only). Jeff Klinger Director EMC Engineering Compatible Electronics, Inc.
Re: Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights?
What is an FCC compliant enclosure? What are the shielding effectiveness requirements? :-) on 7/15/02 12:51 PM, Wagner, John P (John) at johnwag...@avaya.com wrote: The current FCC rules are pretty clear. For systems assembled from components, the system considered compliant if assembled from compliant components; namely, enclosures, motherboards, power supplies. The peripheral rules also apply. So, if this case or enclosure has been tested and shown to be compliant when used as a component for a system, then all is ok. To be legal, the case should have an FCC DoC. John P. Wagner Regulatory Compliance Mandatory Standards AVAYA Strategic Standards. 1300 W. 120th Ave, Room B3-D16 Westminster, CO 80234-2726 Phone/Fax: (303) 538-4241 johnwag...@avaya.com -- From: George Stults[SMTP:george.stu...@watchguard.com] Reply To: George Stults Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 9:56 AM To: 'michael.sundst...@nokia.com'; 'emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org' Subject:Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights? The cases are being sold as components, although I am sure that any of the stores I visited would sell me an assembled system with the modified plastic-window-style-cases. There is no understanding of emission requirements at the level of the retail outlet. Surely this situation has come up before, where there were easily assembled systems from commercially available components sold for the purpose, that would nevertheless be non-compliant with a high degree of probability. How was it handled in the past? What reasoning can be applied to justify the proposition that the plastic-window-style-cases cannot be legally sold? George Stults -Original Message- From: michael.sundst...@nokia.com [mailto:michael.sundst...@nokia.com] Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 5:58 AM To: jklin...@celectronics.com; George Stults; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights? If they are selling these PC's out of a store, how can they be homebuilt? Michael Sundstrom NOKIA TCC Dallas / EMC ofc: (972) 374-1462 cell: (817) 917-5021 amateur call: KB5UKT -Original Message- From: ext Jeff Klinger [mailto:jklin...@celectronics.com] Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 5:39 PM To: George Stults; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights? George, The method for testing motherboards is intended to be combined with the DoC method of declaring compliance based on individual testing of the components that comprise the full computer system, i.e. Assembled from tested components. The final computer system is still required to meet the FCC Class B limit just as if it was tested, even though it was not. I suppose that a small (extremely small) chance exists that the final system could pass if tested. The loophole here may be the Home-Built devices clause, Title 47 part 15.23. Where the device is not marketed or constructed from a kit. This allows for five or less devices built for personal use without the need for compliance testing (FCC only). Jeff Klinger Director EMC Engineering Compatible Electronics, Inc. Ph: 714-579-0500 Fx: 714-528-8984 http://www.celectronics.com NARTE Certified ATL-0180-E -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of George Stults Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 3:11 PM To: 'emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org' Subject: Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights? Hi Folks, I just walked into three local computer stores (west coast, USA) and found that desktop computers have become art forms. There are computer cases for sale with large plexiglass windows about (10in x12in), some with a fan in the middle of the plexiglass panel, and inside the case, there is a 12 inch long neon lamp, powered from the ATX power supply just like any installable drive. Through the window, one can see the motherboard, CPU heatsink, etc, all illuminated by the Neon light. Its the latest in computer fashion, I suppose. I asked a few questions at the stores and found at there are least 2 manufacturers, and that one can obtain kits on the internet to do the same modification at home. After looking at the computer cases, I would expect them to radiate about the same as an open chassis though possibly more directional. My question would be, is there any loophole through which this is legal, or is this the blatant violation that it looks like. I've heard that there is a requirement for computer motherboards to fall within some radiated level with an open chassis. Is that correct and could that be the rational here? George Stults --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to:
RE: EN60950 3rd vs EN60950-1
A couple of months ago, I asked the group if I should be using EN60650-1. The answer was no, until and unless the particular part was published that covered my product. In other words, the new edition is incomplete and subsequent parts will need to be published before it can be used instead of the current edition. Richard Woods Sensormatic Electronics Tyco International -Original Message- From: Brian O'Connell [mailto:boconn...@t-yuden.com] Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 9:25 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: EN60950 3rd vs EN60950-1 In my copy of EN 60950-1:2002, purchased from BSI, the DoP is listed as December 01, 2002. R/S, Brian O'Connell Taiyo Yuden (USA), Inc. -Original Message- From: Ron Pickard [mailto:rpick...@hypercom.com] Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 3:10 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: EN60950 3rd vs EN60950-1 Hi Allen, Thanks for your reply, however, I highly doubt that these products will be obsoleted by then, which is the source of my concern and my query. Also, at some standards purchasing houses, I've noticed that EN60950 3rd Edition has been, or is being, superceded by EN60950-1. This has caused me to ask the question of OJ publication. Best regards, Ron Pickard rpick...@hypercom.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights?
Okay then, I think I see the point. Supposing for the moment that an FCC DoC does exist for the modified case, and that it self declares Class A, and they have test results to back it up, Then, the 'legal' problem would lie with the assertion that its being sold at retail outlets for home use. Except of course the manufacturer would say that its not being sold for that purpose, and the retail outlet doesn't know the difference. Ignorance is bli$$. George Stults -Original Message- From: Wagner, John P (John) [mailto:johnwag...@avaya.com] Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 10:52 AM To: michael.sundst...@nokia.com; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org; George Stults Subject: RE: Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights? Importance: High The current FCC rules are pretty clear. For systems assembled from components, the system considered compliant if assembled from compliant components; namely, enclosures, motherboards, power supplies. The peripheral rules also apply. So, if this case or enclosure has been tested and shown to be compliant when used as a component for a system, then all is ok. To be legal, the case should have an FCC DoC. John P. Wagner Regulatory Compliance Mandatory Standards AVAYA Strategic Standards. 1300 W. 120th Ave, Room B3-D16 Westminster, CO 80234-2726 Phone/Fax: (303) 538-4241 johnwag...@avaya.com -- From: George Stults[SMTP:george.stu...@watchguard.com] Reply To: George Stults Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 9:56 AM To: 'michael.sundst...@nokia.com'; 'emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org' Subject:Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights? The cases are being sold as components, although I am sure that any of the stores I visited would sell me an assembled system with the modified plastic-window-style-cases. There is no understanding of emission requirements at the level of the retail outlet. Surely this situation has come up before, where there were easily assembled systems from commercially available components sold for the purpose, that would nevertheless be non-compliant with a high degree of probability. How was it handled in the past? What reasoning can be applied to justify the proposition that the plastic-window-style-cases cannot be legally sold? George Stults -Original Message- From: michael.sundst...@nokia.com [ mailto:michael.sundst...@nokia.com mailto:michael.sundst...@nokia.com ] Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 5:58 AM To: jklin...@celectronics.com; George Stults; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights? If they are selling these PC's out of a store, how can they be homebuilt? Michael Sundstrom NOKIA TCC Dallas / EMC ofc: (972) 374-1462 cell: (817) 917-5021 amateur call: KB5UKT -Original Message- From: ext Jeff Klinger [ mailto:jklin...@celectronics.com mailto:jklin...@celectronics.com ] Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 5:39 PM To: George Stults; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights? George, The method for testing motherboards is intended to be combined with the DoC method of declaring compliance based on individual testing of the components that comprise the full computer system, i.e. Assembled from tested components. The final computer system is still required to meet the FCC Class B limit just as if it was tested, even though it was not. I suppose that a small (extremely small) chance exists that the final system could pass if tested. The loophole here may be the Home-Built devices clause, Title 47 part 15.23. Where the device is not marketed or constructed from a kit. This allows for five or less devices built for personal use without the need for compliance testing (FCC only). Jeff Klinger Director EMC Engineering Compatible Electronics, Inc. Ph: 714-579-0500 Fx: 714-528-8984 http://www.celectronics.com http://www.celectronics.com NARTE Certified ATL-0180-E -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [ mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org ]On Behalf Of George Stults Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 3:11 PM To: 'emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org' Subject: Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights? Hi Folks, I just walked into three local computer stores (west coast, USA) and found that desktop computers have become art forms. There are computer cases for sale with large plexiglass windows about (10in x12in), some with a fan in the middle of the plexiglass panel, and inside the case, there is a 12 inch long neon lamp, powered from the ATX power supply just like any installable drive. Through the window, one can see the motherboard, CPU heatsink, etc, all illuminated by the Neon light. Its the latest in
RE: IEEE Conference Proceedings (2000 - 2001)
Let me clarify... Is there a company sponsoring the distribution of the IEEE conference proceedings, so that they are not approx. $150 each? -Original Message- From: Benoit Nadeau [SMTP:bnad...@matrox.com] Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 11:44 AM To: Aschenberg, Mat; emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: IEEE Conference Proceedings (2000 - 2001) Bonjour de Montreal, Each year, the IEEE library buys all the documentation issued by International Symposiums of all the IEEE. They then make them available to buy on their web site. The following link will bring you to the Internet pages for the last IEEE EMC Symposiums. Just click Conference proceedings and do a search on electromagnetic compatibility and you will get a list of all they have. You will see the 2000 (Washington) and 2001 (Montreal) symposiums listed on paper or CD-ROM. Regards, http://shop.ieee.org/store/ == Benoît Nadeau, ing., M.ing. (P.Eng., M.Eng) Gérant du Groupe Conformité (Conformity Group Manager) Matrox == 1055, boul St-Régis Dorval (Québec) Canada H9P 2T4 Tel : (514) 822-6000 (2475) Fax : (514) 822-6275 mailto:bnad...@matrox.com http://www.matrox.com == -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Aschenberg, Mat Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 11:18 To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: IEEE Conference Proceedings (2000 - 2001) Hello, In the past the IEEE procedings have been made available to the public. Applied Microfilm sponsored the 40 years for $40. UL sponsored a CD for the few years following. Has anyone seen a CD for the last two years? Mat --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights?
The current FCC rules are pretty clear. For systems assembled from components, the system considered compliant if assembled from compliant components; namely, enclosures, motherboards, power supplies. The peripheral rules also apply. So, if this case or enclosure has been tested and shown to be compliant when used as a component for a system, then all is ok. To be legal, the case should have an FCC DoC. John P. Wagner Regulatory Compliance Mandatory Standards AVAYA Strategic Standards. 1300 W. 120th Ave, Room B3-D16 Westminster, CO 80234-2726 Phone/Fax: (303) 538-4241 johnwag...@avaya.com -- From: George Stults[SMTP:george.stu...@watchguard.com] Reply To: George Stults Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 9:56 AM To: 'michael.sundst...@nokia.com'; 'emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org' Subject: Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights? The cases are being sold as components, although I am sure that any of the stores I visited would sell me an assembled system with the modified plastic-window-style-cases. There is no understanding of emission requirements at the level of the retail outlet. Surely this situation has come up before, where there were easily assembled systems from commercially available components sold for the purpose, that would nevertheless be non-compliant with a high degree of probability. How was it handled in the past? What reasoning can be applied to justify the proposition that the plastic-window-style-cases cannot be legally sold? George Stults -Original Message- From: michael.sundst...@nokia.com [mailto:michael.sundst...@nokia.com] Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 5:58 AM To: jklin...@celectronics.com; George Stults; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights? If they are selling these PC's out of a store, how can they be homebuilt? Michael Sundstrom NOKIA TCC Dallas / EMC ofc: (972) 374-1462 cell: (817) 917-5021 amateur call: KB5UKT -Original Message- From: ext Jeff Klinger [mailto:jklin...@celectronics.com] Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 5:39 PM To: George Stults; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights? George, The method for testing motherboards is intended to be combined with the DoC method of declaring compliance based on individual testing of the components that comprise the full computer system, i.e. Assembled from tested components. The final computer system is still required to meet the FCC Class B limit just as if it was tested, even though it was not. I suppose that a small (extremely small) chance exists that the final system could pass if tested. The loophole here may be the Home-Built devices clause, Title 47 part 15.23. Where the device is not marketed or constructed from a kit. This allows for five or less devices built for personal use without the need for compliance testing (FCC only). Jeff Klinger Director EMC Engineering Compatible Electronics, Inc. Ph: 714-579-0500 Fx: 714-528-8984 http://www.celectronics.com NARTE Certified ATL-0180-E -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of George Stults Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 3:11 PM To: 'emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org' Subject: Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights? Hi Folks, I just walked into three local computer stores (west coast, USA) and found that desktop computers have become art forms. There are computer cases for sale with large plexiglass windows about (10in x12in), some with a fan in the middle of the plexiglass panel, and inside the case, there is a 12 inch long neon lamp, powered from the ATX power supply just like any installable drive. Through the window, one can see the motherboard, CPU heatsink, etc, all illuminated by the Neon light. Its the latest in computer fashion, I suppose. I asked a few questions at the stores and found at there are least 2 manufacturers, and that one can obtain kits on the internet to do the same modification at home. After looking at the computer cases, I would expect them to radiate about the same as an open chassis though possibly more directional. My question would be, is there any loophole through which this is legal, or is this the blatant violation that it looks like. I've heard that there is a requirement for computer motherboards to fall within some radiated level with an open chassis. Is that correct and could that be the rational here? George Stults --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line:
RE: Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights?
With the Home-Built issue, I was keying on the instructions to build available on the internet part, obviously if the systems are offered or marketed for sale whole, or in kit form, then as far as the FCC rules are concerned, it's not considered homebuilt. This has been an issue for as long as I can recall, PC systems, built and sold through mom-and-pop stores, usually slide when it comes to the FCC rules. It's just too difficult for the FCC to pursue each and every issue. I can't speak for the FCC, but my understanding is that the FCC is complaint driven, so if this becomes a problem, someone possibly will complain, and the FCC will get involved, depending on the severity of the problem. Now, if this becomes a major craze and everyone is buying these systems, then the exposure to any problems that exist is far greater, and the probability of the FCC putting a stop to it is far greater. The short-and-simple of it is that it is not legal to sell these systems unless the FCC rules have been applied. The more complex question would then be, What can, and or should, be done about it? And to make this response even longer and more complex, let me ask one more question; How many people build or modify their own systems at home or in the office, and how many problems are actually caused by these systems? Jeff -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of michael.sundst...@nokia.com Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 5:58 AM To: jklin...@celectronics.com; george.stu...@watchguard.com; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights? If they are selling these PC's out of a store, how can they be homebuilt? Michael Sundstrom NOKIA TCC Dallas / EMC ofc: (972) 374-1462 cell: (817) 917-5021 amateur call: KB5UKT -Original Message- From: ext Jeff Klinger [mailto:jklin...@celectronics.com] Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 5:39 PM To: George Stults; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights? George, The method for testing motherboards is intended to be combined with the DoC method of declaring compliance based on individual testing of the components that comprise the full computer system, i.e. Assembled from tested components. The final computer system is still required to meet the FCC Class B limit just as if it was tested, even though it was not. I suppose that a small (extremely small) chance exists that the final system could pass if tested. The loophole here may be the Home-Built devices clause, Title 47 part 15.23. Where the device is not marketed or constructed from a kit. This allows for five or less devices built for personal use without the need for compliance testing (FCC only). Jeff Klinger Director EMC Engineering Compatible Electronics, Inc. Ph: 714-579-0500 Fx: 714-528-8984 http://www.celectronics.com NARTE Certified ATL-0180-E -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of George Stults Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 3:11 PM To: 'emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org' Subject: Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights? Hi Folks, I just walked into three local computer stores (west coast, USA) and found that desktop computers have become art forms. There are computer cases for sale with large plexiglass windows about (10in x12in), some with a fan in the middle of the plexiglass panel, and inside the case, there is a 12 inch long neon lamp, powered from the ATX power supply just like any installable drive. Through the window, one can see the motherboard, CPU heatsink, etc, all illuminated by the Neon light. Its the latest in computer fashion, I suppose. I asked a few questions at the stores and found at there are least 2 manufacturers, and that one can obtain kits on the internet to do the same modification at home. After looking at the computer cases, I would expect them to radiate about the same as an open chassis though possibly more directional. My question would be, is there any loophole through which this is legal, or is this the blatant violation that it looks like. I've heard that there is a requirement for computer motherboards to fall within some radiated level with an open chassis. Is that correct and could that be the rational here? George Stults --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
RE: IEEE Conference Proceedings (2000 - 2001)
Bonjour de Montreal, Each year, the IEEE library buys all the documentation issued by International Symposiums of all the IEEE. They then make them available to buy on their web site. The following link will bring you to the Internet pages for the last IEEE EMC Symposiums. Just click Conference proceedings and do a search on electromagnetic compatibility and you will get a list of all they have. You will see the 2000 (Washington) and 2001 (Montreal) symposiums listed on paper or CD-ROM. Regards, http://shop.ieee.org/store/ == Benoît Nadeau, ing., M.ing. (P.Eng., M.Eng) Gérant du Groupe Conformité (Conformity Group Manager) Matrox == 1055, boul St-Régis Dorval (Québec) Canada H9P 2T4 Tel : (514) 822-6000 (2475) Fax : (514) 822-6275 mailto:bnad...@matrox.com http://www.matrox.com == -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Aschenberg, Mat Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 11:18 To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: IEEE Conference Proceedings (2000 - 2001) Hello, In the past the IEEE procedings have been made available to the public. Applied Microfilm sponsored the 40 years for $40. UL sponsored a CD for the few years following. Has anyone seen a CD for the last two years? Mat --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: IEEE Conference Proceedings (2000 - 2001)
The 2001 Montreal Symposium is IEEE Cat. # 01CH37161C and ISBN: 0-7803-6571-2 David Sterner ADEMCO -Original Message- From: Aschenberg, Mat [mailto:matt.aschenb...@echostar.com] Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 11:18 AM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: IEEE Conference Proceedings (2000 - 2001) Hello, In the past the IEEE procedings have been made available to the public. Applied Microfilm sponsored the 40 years for $40. UL sponsored a CD for the few years following. Has anyone seen a CD for the last two years? Mat --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights?
The cases are being sold as components, although I am sure that any of the stores I visited would sell me an assembled system with the modified plastic-window-style-cases. There is no understanding of emission requirements at the level of the retail outlet. Surely this situation has come up before, where there were easily assembled systems from commercially available components sold for the purpose, that would nevertheless be non-compliant with a high degree of probability. How was it handled in the past? What reasoning can be applied to justify the proposition that the plastic-window-style-cases cannot be legally sold? George Stults -Original Message- From: michael.sundst...@nokia.com [mailto:michael.sundst...@nokia.com] Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 5:58 AM To: jklin...@celectronics.com; George Stults; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights? If they are selling these PC's out of a store, how can they be homebuilt? Michael Sundstrom NOKIA TCC Dallas / EMC ofc: (972) 374-1462 cell: (817) 917-5021 amateur call: KB5UKT -Original Message- From: ext Jeff Klinger [mailto:jklin...@celectronics.com] Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 5:39 PM To: George Stults; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights? George, The method for testing motherboards is intended to be combined with the DoC method of declaring compliance based on individual testing of the components that comprise the full computer system, i.e. Assembled from tested components. The final computer system is still required to meet the FCC Class B limit just as if it was tested, even though it was not. I suppose that a small (extremely small) chance exists that the final system could pass if tested. The loophole here may be the Home-Built devices clause, Title 47 part 15.23. Where the device is not marketed or constructed from a kit. This allows for five or less devices built for personal use without the need for compliance testing (FCC only). Jeff Klinger Director EMC Engineering Compatible Electronics, Inc. Ph: 714-579-0500 Fx: 714-528-8984 http://www.celectronics.com NARTE Certified ATL-0180-E -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of George Stults Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 3:11 PM To: 'emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org' Subject: Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights? Hi Folks, I just walked into three local computer stores (west coast, USA) and found that desktop computers have become art forms. There are computer cases for sale with large plexiglass windows about (10in x12in), some with a fan in the middle of the plexiglass panel, and inside the case, there is a 12 inch long neon lamp, powered from the ATX power supply just like any installable drive. Through the window, one can see the motherboard, CPU heatsink, etc, all illuminated by the Neon light. Its the latest in computer fashion, I suppose. I asked a few questions at the stores and found at there are least 2 manufacturers, and that one can obtain kits on the internet to do the same modification at home. After looking at the computer cases, I would expect them to radiate about the same as an open chassis though possibly more directional. My question would be, is there any loophole through which this is legal, or is this the blatant violation that it looks like. I've heard that there is a requirement for computer motherboards to fall within some radiated level with an open chassis. Is that correct and could that be the rational here? George Stults --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute:
IEEE Conference Proceedings (2000 - 2001)
Hello, In the past the IEEE procedings have been made available to the public. Applied Microfilm sponsored the 40 years for $40. UL sponsored a CD for the few years following. Has anyone seen a CD for the last two years? Mat --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: EN60950 3rd vs EN60950-1
In my copy of EN 60950-1:2002, purchased from BSI, the DoP is listed as December 01, 2002. R/S, Brian O'Connell Taiyo Yuden (USA), Inc. -Original Message- From: Ron Pickard [mailto:rpick...@hypercom.com] Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 3:10 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: EN60950 3rd vs EN60950-1 Hi Allen, Thanks for your reply, however, I highly doubt that these products will be obsoleted by then, which is the source of my concern and my query. Also, at some standards purchasing houses, I've noticed that EN60950 3rd Edition has been, or is being, superceded by EN60950-1. This has caused me to ask the question of OJ publication. Best regards, Ron Pickard rpick...@hypercom.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights?
If they are selling these PC's out of a store, how can they be homebuilt? Michael Sundstrom NOKIA TCC Dallas / EMC ofc: (972) 374-1462 cell: (817) 917-5021 amateur call: KB5UKT -Original Message- From: ext Jeff Klinger [mailto:jklin...@celectronics.com] Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 5:39 PM To: George Stults; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights? George, The method for testing motherboards is intended to be combined with the DoC method of declaring compliance based on individual testing of the components that comprise the full computer system, i.e. Assembled from tested components. The final computer system is still required to meet the FCC Class B limit just as if it was tested, even though it was not. I suppose that a small (extremely small) chance exists that the final system could pass if tested. The loophole here may be the Home-Built devices clause, Title 47 part 15.23. Where the device is not marketed or constructed from a kit. This allows for five or less devices built for personal use without the need for compliance testing (FCC only). Jeff Klinger Director EMC Engineering Compatible Electronics, Inc. Ph: 714-579-0500 Fx: 714-528-8984 http://www.celectronics.com NARTE Certified ATL-0180-E -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of George Stults Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 3:11 PM To: 'emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org' Subject: Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights? Hi Folks, I just walked into three local computer stores (west coast, USA) and found that desktop computers have become art forms. There are computer cases for sale with large plexiglass windows about (10in x12in), some with a fan in the middle of the plexiglass panel, and inside the case, there is a 12 inch long neon lamp, powered from the ATX power supply just like any installable drive. Through the window, one can see the motherboard, CPU heatsink, etc, all illuminated by the Neon light. Its the latest in computer fashion, I suppose. I asked a few questions at the stores and found at there are least 2 manufacturers, and that one can obtain kits on the internet to do the same modification at home. After looking at the computer cases, I would expect them to radiate about the same as an open chassis though possibly more directional. My question would be, is there any loophole through which this is legal, or is this the blatant violation that it looks like. I've heard that there is a requirement for computer motherboards to fall within some radiated level with an open chassis. Is that correct and could that be the rational here? George Stults --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/
Re: China approvals - CCC
Hi Mr. leslie Bai you can visit web page http://www.cqc.com.cn/index-e.htm for details Regards Xing weibing 2002-07-15 - Original Message - From: Leslie Bai To: Scott Douglas ; Emc-Pstc Group (E-mail) Sent: Saturday, July 13, 2002 7:23 AM Subject: RE: China approvals - CCC Scott, Go to www.siemic.com , click ccc to download a 10-page complete introduction of CCC mark. Leslie Scott Douglas dougl...@naradnetworks.com wrote: Can anyone provide web links to look at these catalogues? I am interested to see if our products are on the list. Thanks, Scott At 08:02 AM 7/12/02 -0700, Joshua Wiseman wrote: Amund, I think you should also take a look at the old CCIB scheme. The CCC is still developing standards at this time. I believe it is safe to say that if your product was in the catalog for CCIB it will be for CCC as well. I also understand that CCC will cover more products than CCIB did as well. If nothing else keep your ear to the door you may find yourself working toward CCC approval in the future. Good Luck, Josh Josh Wiseman EMC/Product Safety (714) 368-2737 [mailto:jwise...@printronix.com] -Original Message- From: am...@westin-emission.no [mailto:am...@westin-emission.no] Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 1:39 AM To: Emc-Pstc Group (E-mail) Subject: China approvals - CCC Hi all, Rules and Procedures for Compulsory Product Certification were implemented on May 1, 2002. The certification mark is referred to as China Compulsory Certification (CCC). The first Catalogue of Products Subject to Compulsory Certification is now released. Question: If my product is not listed in the catalogue, does it mean what I do not have to document compliance to the EMC or electrical safety requirements ? no need for Chinese certification ? I have be told so via competent sources. I would like to check the discus! sion form for other views. Best regards Amund Westin, Oslo/Norway --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list -- Do You Yahoo!? New! SBC Yahoo! Dial - 1st Month Free unlimited access
