RE: Product vs Battery Approvals
http://www.ieee-pses.org/symposium http://www.emc2004.org/ Yes. For safety certifications, Lithium Ion batteries present a risk that needs to be considered. If the batteries are short-circuited, overcharged, or charged (if not rechargeable) there is a potential for fire. If you are using UL Recognized batteries, you can use the maximum reverse charging/overcurrent ratings in designing your protection circuit. Remember to use two layers of protection, to protect in case of a single fault. Note there are batteries on the market which incorporate this protection. The batteries themselves need to meet UN testing requirements for transport (testing is primarily environmental), and in the US, the DOT is supposed to be adopting the UN standard soon to be required for battery transport in the US. There are exceptions, but primarily for very small batteries. This requirement is intended for the battery manufacturer, not the end user. If you have any more questions, feel free to ask me directly. Thanks, Sam Davis Product Safety Certifications Engineer Professional Testing Inc. (512)244-3371 x112 From: owner-emc-p...@listserv.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@listserv.ieee.org] On Behalf Of Alex McNeil Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2004 9:56 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Product vs Battery Approvals http://www.ieee-pses.org/symposium http://www.emc2004.org/ Hi Guys, We are in the process of changing the types of 7.2V battery packs in our already fully approved products from Ni_mH to Li_Ion. Are there any approvals issues that may need to be re-considered e.g. EMC, Safety, battery approval reqts. or? As always I look forward to your expert opinions. Kind Regards Alex McNeil This email has been scanned for all known viruses and appropriate content by the Messagelabs mail service. This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. IEEE PSES Main Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions for use of the list server: http://listserv.ieee.org/listserv/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.693 / Virus Database: 454 - Release Date: 5/31/2004 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.693 / Virus Database: 454 - Release Date: 5/31/2004 This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. IEEE PSES Main Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions for use of the list server: http://listserv.ieee.org/listserv/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Product vs Battery Approvals
http://www.ieee-pses.org/symposium http://www.emc2004.org/ Hi Guys, We are in the process of changing the types of 7.2V battery packs in our already fully approved products from Ni_mH to Li_Ion. Are there any approvals issues that may need to be re-considered e.g. EMC, Safety, battery approval reqts. or? As always I look forward to your expert opinions. Kind Regards Alex McNeil This email has been scanned for all known viruses and appropriate content by the Messagelabs mail service. This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. IEEE PSES Main Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions for use of the list server: http://listserv.ieee.org/listserv/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Pollution Degree 2 - Abracadabra !
http://www.ieee-pses.org/symposium http://www.emc2004.org/ Well done Doug Massey - you've rubbed the magic lamp. I was aware that 60950 - 22 was on the way but until published should not be relied upon as it could be modified (or cancelled, even). That is why I was trying to get a concensous of feeling from this international learned group as to what was acceptable. Feedback has supported my feelings that IP54 could provide an environment sufficient for Pollution degree 2 in general. A lesser IP rating could also suffice providing measures are taken to improve its interior environment. Now I must get on and get some work done. Thanks to all who responded. Eric (Super - scouse) What is a 'scouser' ? - http://www.fortunecity.com/meltingpot/park/346/whatisscouse.html ericm...@intertest.co.uk IEng, IIE, SEE, IIRSM INTERTest Systems UK the trading name of the test laboratory of E M Consulting Ltd Safety - Consultancy, evaluation and Int Certification This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. IEEE PSES Main Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions for use of the list server: http://listserv.ieee.org/listserv/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: Pollution Degrees EN60950 - are others struggling too !
http://www.ieee-pses.org/symposium http://www.emc2004.org/ Eric Neil, TC108 is working on IEC 60950-22, ITE Installed Outdoors, which may hopefully put some parameters on a topic that is at present somewhat subjective. The standard is currently in its 2nd committee draft. In the meantime, you may want to review UL's Guideline for ITE installed outdoors at http://www.ul.com/ite/OutdoorITEGuideline.PDF, which, as I understand it, discusses much of the rationale that will be seen in the -22 standard, including installation category, transient protection, etc., in addition to pollution degree. Specifically, page 19 of this document discusses PD in relation to ingress protection - although it does not give a specific set of rules correlating IP rating to PD. In general, if you can show that an enclosure prevents the interior from being subject to conductive pollution, or to dry non-conductive pollution that could become conductive during periods of expected condensation, then the evaluator can assume PD2. In my estimation, this means that a minimum IP rating of IP54 would be required to safely assume PD2 on the interior of an enclosure intended for outdoor use - if the enclosure may likely be subject to hose-down, such as mounted on the side of a residence, then IP55 would be a minimum rating - in this particular case, where the homeowner may use a pressure washer, IP56 is more appropriate. If the unit is to mounted near to the ground, or below ground level, then IP57 is appropriate. As of today, this is a subjective call - I'm not sure how much detail will be given on this topic in the -22 standard - but I would hazard to guess that any effort to establish a firm set of rules for a broad spectrum of products will result in criteria that does not allow much room to easily apply sound engineering judgment - when you try to make a set of rules that covers everything, the rules tend to be very strict. A related topic that I would like to see resolved is the US national deviation that requires manufacturers of outdoor ITE to comply with UL50 environmental protection criteria for the US and Canada, and does not allow a cross-reference to IP ratings - this dual criteria typically doubles the cost of enclosure testing for manufacturers of outdoor ITE, with little objective justification. Doug Massey, NCE From: owner-emc-p...@listserv.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@listserv.ieee.org] On Behalf Of Barker, Neil Sent: Monday, June 07, 2004 5:20 AM To: 'intert...@safety.demon.co.uk'; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Pollution Degrees EN60950 - are others struggling too ! http://www.ieee-pses.org/symposium http://www.emc2004.org/ Eric, I don't believe that you can correlate IP rating and Pollution Degree. While Ingress Protection can provide some assurance of a specific pollution degree, it can be perfectly acceptable for equipment with an IP rating of only say IP20 to be assesses for Pollution Degree 2 if the typical usage and the operating instructions indicate that it is suitable for use only in specific environments such as offices. You cannot test for a specific pollution degree, it is simply a condition that must be considered when performing a safety assessment. By the way, an outdoor enclosure can meet pollution degree 2. We manufacture products that are intended to be mounted on the outside of buildings or vehicles. The enclosure has an environmental seal and is vented through a dessicant breather, so the interior remains clean and dry. Best regards, Neil R. Barker C.Eng. MIEE MIEEE MSEE Manager Compliance Engineering e2v technologies ltd 106 Waterhouse Lane Chelmsford Essex CM1 2QU UK Tel: +44 (0)1245 453616 Fax: +44 (0)1245 453410 e-mail: neil.bar...@e2vtechnologies.com Web: http://www.e2vtechnologies.com From: intert...@safety.demon.co.uk [mailto:intert...@safety.demon.co.uk] Sent: 01 June 2004 19:51 To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Pollution Degrees EN60950 - are others struggling too ! http://www.ieee-pses.org/symposium http://www.emc2004.org/ Only two replies to this one last week - thank you guys - good supportive information. Can I entice any further responses ? I have IT equipment certified to EN60950 - Pollution Degree 2. The designer swears blind that his out-door cabinet can meet the requirements of Pollution Degree 2 - IT IS VERY DOUBTFUL. Do any environmental test labs in the UK test to EN60950 - Pollution Degree 2 ? I believe they only test IP ratings - that is why I need to correlate Pollution Degree 2 to an IP rating. While we are at it : Would anyone venture to correlate Pollution Degree 1 3 to IP ratings ? Eric ericm...@intertest.co.uk IEng, IIE, SEE, IIRSM INTERTest Systems UK the trading name of the test laboratory of E M Consulting Ltd Safety - Consultancy, evaluation and Int Certification This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. IEEE PSES Main Website:
RE: Fragility levels for components.
http://www.ieee-pses.org/symposium http://www.emc2004.org/ -- I'm not sure this is a meaningful question - as Brian observes the mounting of the equipment or internal construction of the unit always dominates. My products are used in an environment (motorsport) that has a perisistant 20g = 100g rms spectrum, and they always survives major impact shock. e.g Race car crashing and disintegrating at Indianapolis at 230mph. Impact g (multiple times) being beyond what we can measure at 100g. The component technology is nothing special and wide ranging - the mechanics of the overall unit is considered!! What environment are you talking about?? From: Brian O'Connell [mailto:boconn...@t-yuden.com] Sent: 07 June 2004 18:02 To: Gary McInturff; EMC-PSTC (E-mail) Subject: RE: Fragility levels for components. http://www.ieee-pses.org/symposium http://www.emc2004.org/ -- Based on HALT and HASS that I've performed, component fragility is dependent on its end-use environment (i.e., mechanical characteristics of how the component is installed on the PCB). I suppose that max shock vibration recommended by the mfr could be used as starting point. But you will never know until you have empirical data, based on the end-use installation. I have seen identical components, that were both mounted on similar-sized PCBs, fail at significantly different g-levels. Adjacent components, PCB material, adjacent trace properties, and other factors can effect the mechanical performance of discretes and ICs. luck, Brian -Original Message- From: Gary McInturff [ mailto:gmcintu...@spraycool.com] Sent: Monday, June 07, 2004 8:04 AM To: EMC-PSTC (E-mail) Subject: Fragility levels for components. Does anyone know if there exists a report that generalizes component fragility levels? An 2 cm ball grid array ASIC etc, board mounted? Failure Vibration and shock levels. Thanks Gary --- This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. IEEE PSES Main Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions for use of the list server: http://listserv.ieee.org/listserv/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc --- This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. IEEE PSES Main Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions for use of the list server: http://listserv.ieee.org/listserv/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
