RE: CISPR 22 / ANSI C63.4 antenna-to-EUT distance
IMO - It's all a question of balance: For all practical purposes 1)- if you have margin (i.e . the MU), then no antenna movement is required. 2) - If the EUT is small wrt to the measurement distance: ditto 3) If your EUT FILLS the turntable and/or you have minimal margin the antenna adjustment might be your friend! Best Regards Charles Grasso Compliance Engineer Echostar Communications Corp. Tel: 303-706-5467 Fax: 303-799-6222 Cell: 303-204-2974 Pager/Short Message: 3032042...@vtext.com Email: charles.gra...@echostar.com From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of ari.honk...@nsn.com Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 2:15 PM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: CISPR 22 / ANSI C63.4 antenna-to-EUT distance That would be a reasonably challenging objective. I believe the principle now is in a way sound: if you follow the standard's text to the letter, now when you record the final reading from your receiver the horizontal distance between antenna and EUT really is 10 metres. And this single definition equally suits to EUTs of all shape and appearance. Compromises are of course done for practical reasons. Probably no-one's feelings are hurt if a manufacturer makes a compromise in their own tests in a way that the results are say 1 dB higher (but never lower) than what they would be if the standard were exactly followed. Ari -Original Message- From: ext Pettit, Ghery [mailto:ghery.pet...@intel.com] Sent: 20. helmikuuta 2008 22:41 To: Honkala Ari (NSN - FI/Espoo); emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: CISPR 22 / ANSI C63.4 antenna-to-EUT distance Exactly. And, Ari, maybe we need to make this clearer in the next update to CISPR 22 and in CISPR 32 when we finally publish it (in our lifetimes?). Ghery -Original Message- From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of ari.honk...@nsn.com Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 12:00 PM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: CISPR 22 / ANSI C63.4 antenna-to-EUT distance I have the 2005 version of CISPR 22 in hand and it says: The boundary of the EUT is defined by an imaginary straight-line periphery describing a simple geometric configuration encompassing the EUT. All ITE intersystem cables and connecting ITE shall be included within this boundary (see also Figure 2). In other words, if the footprint of EUT, cables and used accessories is not a circle, the test distance varies when the table is rotated. This is indeed inconvenient, and what we usually do is that we take the closest distance available using such straight-line periphery and set that as the prescribed test distance. We penalise ourselves a bit since in some azimuths one EUT corner is too close but with typical EUT's the effect is not significant since we want anyhow some margin to the limits. regards, Ari Honkala Nokia Siemens Networks From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of ext Bill Owsley Sent: 20. helmikuuta 2008 20:29 To: Pettit, Ghery; T.Sato; emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: CISPR 22 / ANSI C63.4 antenna-to-EUT distance Ghery, I don't understand your desciption. I thought the original question was to find the 3 or 10 or 30 meter distance, numbers not actually mentioned, specified in the two standards given the interesting text in the standards. For example, Figure 3 of CISPR 22:2003 shows the circle surrounding the EUT system, and the two straight lines across the center. Then the distance L is indicated from the perimeter of the circle to the antenna center. This defines the specified measuring distance of antenna to EUT system. Then if one is interested in the actual distance from antenna to EUT, given that the EUT is setup along the edge of the table such the cables hang off, a measurement would have to be made, or if good at trigonometry - calculated. Thus, as the EUT is rotated during the survey, the measuring distance - actual antenna to EUT distance, changes as the turntable rotates. Figure 5 of C63.4:2003 seems to indicate much the same - a circle indicating the EUT on a turntable. Now there has been some debate of the definition of what's being tested. Is it just the EUT part of a system setup and then the distance measurement is made from just the EUT part and not encompassing system of accessories? Or does the system, which includes the EUT, become the whole of what is being tested and thus the distance is from the edge of the system, the outer most point of the various parts? Pettit, Ghery ghery.pet...@intel.com wrote: Actually, draw an outline of the EUT boxes on the table. Now draw a straight line between the outer edges of the boxes. As the turntable rotates the measurement distance is from the antenna to this outline. It is not a circle containing the EUT, the actual measurement point can be closer to the center of the table as it
Re: CISPR 22 / ANSI C63.4 antenna-to-EUT distance
In message e2ceff6b0970a840bb7597dc31bec3300305a...@esebe107.noe.nokia.com, dated Wed, 20 Feb 2008, ari.honk...@nsn.com writes: Probably no-one's feelings are hurt if a manufacturer makes a compromise in their own tests in a way that the results are say 1 dB higher (but never lower) than what they would be if the standard were exactly followed. I'm not sure what view an assessor would take about a manufacturer testing his own products that way, but a test-house must not 'over-test' for expediency. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk For very important information, please turn over. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: CISPR 22 / ANSI C63.4 antenna-to-EUT distance
In message f50a4280b6033741b1dd2b4e902258b1071af...@orsmsx411.amr.corp.intel.com, dated Wed, 20 Feb 2008, Pettit, Ghery ghery.pet...@intel.com writes: Well, John, it's been there for a while. It's been in CISPR 22 since at least the 2nd Edition in 1993 (I don't have an electronic copy of the 1st Edition on my computer). Ah, well, many EMC standards had 'surprising' provisions in those days. 'Maximizing emissions' in one standard could have required over 10 000 measurements! If you have a better idea, we'd love to hear it as we've been looking at this very issue in CISPR 22 and the upcoming CISPR 32 in SC I. I agree that the simple 'circumcircle' (smallest circle that encloses the plan area of the EUT) solution doesn't 'look right' for a rectangular EUT with length very different from width. But if the standard specified it, at least the assessors would not have an issue. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk For very important information, please turn over. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: CISPR 22 / ANSI C63.4 antenna-to-EUT distance
That would be a reasonably challenging objective. I believe the principle now is in a way sound: if you follow the standard's text to the letter, now when you record the final reading from your receiver the horizontal distance between antenna and EUT really is 10 metres. And this single definition equally suits to EUTs of all shape and appearance. Compromises are of course done for practical reasons. Probably no-one's feelings are hurt if a manufacturer makes a compromise in their own tests in a way that the results are say 1 dB higher (but never lower) than what they would be if the standard were exactly followed. Ari -Original Message- From: ext Pettit, Ghery [mailto:ghery.pet...@intel.com] Sent: 20. helmikuuta 2008 22:41 To: Honkala Ari (NSN - FI/Espoo); emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: CISPR 22 / ANSI C63.4 antenna-to-EUT distance Exactly. And, Ari, maybe we need to make this clearer in the next update to CISPR 22 and in CISPR 32 when we finally publish it (in our lifetimes?). Ghery -Original Message- From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of ari.honk...@nsn.com Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 12:00 PM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: CISPR 22 / ANSI C63.4 antenna-to-EUT distance I have the 2005 version of CISPR 22 in hand and it says: The boundary of the EUT is defined by an imaginary straight-line periphery describing a simple geometric configuration encompassing the EUT. All ITE intersystem cables and connecting ITE shall be included within this boundary (see also Figure 2). In other words, if the footprint of EUT, cables and used accessories is not a circle, the test distance varies when the table is rotated. This is indeed inconvenient, and what we usually do is that we take the closest distance available using such straight-line periphery and set that as the prescribed test distance. We penalise ourselves a bit since in some azimuths one EUT corner is too close but with typical EUT's the effect is not significant since we want anyhow some margin to the limits. regards, Ari Honkala Nokia Siemens Networks From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of ext Bill Owsley Sent: 20. helmikuuta 2008 20:29 To: Pettit, Ghery; T.Sato; emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: CISPR 22 / ANSI C63.4 antenna-to-EUT distance Ghery, I don't understand your desciption. I thought the original question was to find the 3 or 10 or 30 meter distance, numbers not actually mentioned, specified in the two standards given the interesting text in the standards. For example, Figure 3 of CISPR 22:2003 shows the circle surrounding the EUT system, and the two straight lines across the center. Then the distance L is indicated from the perimeter of the circle to the antenna center. This defines the specified measuring distance of antenna to EUT system. Then if one is interested in the actual distance from antenna to EUT, given that the EUT is setup along the edge of the table such the cables hang off, a measurement would have to be made, or if good at trigonometry - calculated. Thus, as the EUT is rotated during the survey, the measuring distance - actual antenna to EUT distance, changes as the turntable rotates. Figure 5 of C63.4:2003 seems to indicate much the same - a circle indicating the EUT on a turntable. Now there has been some debate of the definition of what's being tested. Is it just the EUT part of a system setup and then the distance measurement is made from just the EUT part and not encompassing system of accessories? Or does the system, which includes the EUT, become the whole of what is being tested and thus the distance is from the edge of the system, the outer most point of the various parts? Pettit, Ghery ghery.pet...@intel.com wrote: Actually, draw an outline of the EUT boxes on the table. Now draw a straight line between the outer edges of the boxes. As the turntable rotates the measurement distance is from the antenna to this outline. It is not a circle containing the EUT, the actual measurement point can be closer to the center of the table as it rotates. Ghery Pettit From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Bill Owsley Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 6:57 AM To: T.Sato; emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Re: CISPR 22 / ANSI C63.4 antenna-to-EUT distance I understand it to be such when the system is assembled on a turntable, which is then rotated, the system can be contained within a circle described by the outer most device as the system rotates. Then the distance is from this circle to the antenna center, however the
RE: CISPR 22 / ANSI C63.4 antenna-to-EUT distance
Well, John, it's been there for a while. It's been in CISPR 22 since at least the 2nd Edition in 1993 (I don't have an electronic copy of the 1st Edition on my computer). If you have a better idea, we'd love to hear it as we've been looking at this very issue in CISPR 22 and the upcoming CISPR 32 in SC I. Ghery Pettit Convener, CISPR SC I WG3 From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of John Woodgate Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 12:18 PM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Re: CISPR 22 / ANSI C63.4 antenna-to-EUT distance In message e2ceff6b0970a840bb7597dc31bec3300305a...@esebe107.noe.nokia.com, dated Wed, 20 Feb 2008, ari.honk...@nsn.com writes: This is indeed inconvenient, It certainly is, and while your work-around is OK, it would not impress the assessors! It's surprising that such a provision was accepted for the standard. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk For very important information, please turn over. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: CISPR 22 / ANSI C63.4 antenna-to-EUT distance
Exactly. And, Ari, maybe we need to make this clearer in the next update to CISPR 22 and in CISPR 32 when we finally publish it (in our lifetimes?). Ghery From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of ari.honk...@nsn.com Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 12:00 PM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: CISPR 22 / ANSI C63.4 antenna-to-EUT distance I have the 2005 version of CISPR 22 in hand and it says: The boundary of the EUT is defined by an imaginary straight-line periphery describing a simple geometric configuration encompassing the EUT. All ITE intersystem cables and connecting ITE shall be included within this boundary (see also Figure 2). In other words, if the footprint of EUT, cables and used accessories is not a circle, the test distance varies when the table is rotated. This is indeed inconvenient, and what we usually do is that we take the closest distance available using such straight-line periphery and set that as the prescribed test distance. We penalise ourselves a bit since in some azimuths one EUT corner is too close but with typical EUT's the effect is not significant since we want anyhow some margin to the limits. regards, Ari Honkala Nokia Siemens Networks From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of ext Bill Owsley Sent: 20. helmikuuta 2008 20:29 To: Pettit, Ghery; T.Sato; emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: CISPR 22 / ANSI C63.4 antenna-to-EUT distance Ghery, I don't understand your desciption. I thought the original question was to find the 3 or 10 or 30 meter distance, numbers not actually mentioned, specified in the two standards given the interesting text in the standards. For example, Figure 3 of CISPR 22:2003 shows the circle surrounding the EUT system, and the two straight lines across the center. Then the distance L is indicated from the perimeter of the circle to the antenna center. This defines the specified measuring distance of antenna to EUT system. Then if one is interested in the actual distance from antenna to EUT, given that the EUT is setup along the edge of the table such the cables hang off, a measurement would have to be made, or if good at trigonometry - calculated. Thus, as the EUT is rotated during the survey, the measuring distance - actual antenna to EUT distance, changes as the turntable rotates. Figure 5 of C63.4:2003 seems to indicate much the same - a circle indicating the EUT on a turntable. Now there has been some debate of the definition of what's being tested. Is it just the EUT part of a system setup and then the distance measurement is made from just the EUT part and not encompassing system of accessories? Or does the system, which includes the EUT, become the whole of what is being tested and thus the distance is from the edge of the system, the outer most point of the various parts? Pettit, Ghery ghery.pet...@intel.com wrote: Actually, draw an outline of the EUT boxes on the table. Now draw a straight line between the outer edges of the boxes. As the turntable rotates the measurement distance is from the antenna to this outline. It is not a circle containing the EUT, the actual measurement point can be closer to the center of the table as it rotates. Ghery Pettit From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Bill Owsley Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 6:57 AM To: T.Sato; emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Re: CISPR 22 / ANSI C63.4 antenna-to-EUT distance I understand it to be such when the system is assembled on a turntable, which is then rotated, the system can be contained within a circle described by the outer most device as the system rotates. Then the distance is from this circle to the antenna center, however the antenna center is defined. The straight line reference might be the tangent of the circle closest to the antenna. I get to have fun when one complete product is about 1 inch in size and the next is just over 12 feet in diameter. - Bill T.Sato vef00...@nifty.ne.jp wrote: Dear experts, I have a question about definition of antenna-to-EUT distance in CISPR 22 and ANSI C63.4. CISPR 22:2005 clause 10.3.1 (Antenna-to-EUT distance) says that: Measurement of the radiated field shall be made with the antenna
RE: CISPR 22 / ANSI C63.4 antenna-to-EUT distance
Figure three shows the minimum size of the metal ground plane for an OATS, nothing more. Figure 2 illustrates the straight line perimeter of the EUT. This is also the same in CISPR 22, Edition 5 which was published in 2005 and is the basis for EN 55022:2006. And you are correct, the actual measurement distance does change as the turntable rotates. Nobody pays it any mind, at least not in any lab I’ve seen around the world. But if you want to be absolutely precise, here’s an opportunity for mast manufacturers to offer a new high cost option. :-) Ghery _ From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Bill Owsley Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 10:29 AM To: Pettit, Ghery; T.Sato; emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: CISPR 22 / ANSI C63.4 antenna-to-EUT distance Ghery, I don't understand your desciption. I thought the original question was to find the 3 or 10 or 30 meter distance, numbers not actually mentioned, specified in the two standards given the interesting text in the standards. For example, Figure 3 of CISPR 22:2003 shows the circle surrounding the EUT system, and the two straight lines across the center. Then the distance L is indicated from the perimeter of the circle to the antenna center. This defines the specified measuring distance of antenna to EUT system. Then if one is interested in the actual distance from antenna to EUT, given that the EUT is setup along the edge of the table such the cables hang off, a measurement would have to be made, or if good at trigonometry - calculated. Thus, as the EUT is rotated during the survey, the measuring distance - actual antenna to EUT distance, changes as the turntable rotates. Figure 5 of C63.4:2003 seems to indicate much the same - a circle indicating the EUT on a turntable. Now there has been some debate of the definition of what's being tested. Is it just the EUT part of a system setup and then the distance measurement is made from just the EUT part and not encompassing system of accessories? Or does the system, which includes the EUT, become the whole of what is being tested and thus the distance is from the edge of the system, the outer most point of the various parts? Pettit, Ghery ghery.pet...@intel.com wrote: Actually, draw an outline of the EUT boxes on the table. Now draw a straight line between the outer edges of the boxes. As the turntable rotates the measurement distance is from the antenna to this outline. It is not a circle containing the EUT, the actual measurement point can be closer to the center of the table as it rotates. Ghery Pettit _ From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Bill Owsley Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 6:57 AM To: T.Sato; emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Re: CISPR 22 / ANSI C63.4 antenna-to-EUT distance I understand it to be such when the system is assembled on a turntable, which is then rotated, the system can be contained within a circle described by the outer most device as the system rotates. Then the distance is from this circle to the antenna center, however the antenna center is defined. The straight line reference might be the tangent of the circle closest to the antenna. I get to have fun when one complete product is about 1 inch in size and the next is just over 12 feet in diameter. - Bill T.Sato vef00...@nifty.ne.jp wrote: Dear experts, I have a question about definition of antenna-to-EUT distance in CISPR 22 and ANSI C63.4. CISPR 22:2005 clause 10.3.1 (Antenna-to-EUT distance) says that: Measurement of the radiated field shall be made with the antenna located at the horizontal distance from boundary of the EUT as specified in Clause 6. The boundary of the EUT is defined by an imaginary straight-line periphery describing a simple geometric configuration encompassing the EUT. This text is not very clear for me, but I think use of the imaginary straight-line periphery suggests that it is not intended to define the distance as the minimum distance between the antenna and boundary of the EUT when the EUT is rotated. I think that the Figure 2 suggests the same thing, and the figure also suggests that the distance is to be measured from front, or front or rear, of the EUT. Does anybody know clearer interpretation about this? And what about ANSI C63.4-2003, which simply says that: The specified distance is the distance between the horizontal projection onto the groundplane of the closest periphery of the EUT and the projection onto the groundplane of the center of the axis of the elements of the receiving antenna. in its clause 8.2.3? Regards, Tom Tomonori Sato URL: http://homepage3.nifty.com/tsato/ - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List
RE: CISPR 22 / ANSI C63.4 antenna-to-EUT distance
To be precise in the measurement distance, yes. Now, what many will do is test at a closer distance and only move the antenna back for a particular turntable position if additional margin to the limit is needed. I've never seen a lab move the mast forwards and backwards, but a strict reading could lead you to it. See section 10.3.1 of CISPR 22 and also look carefully at Figure 2 with the dotted lines on the EUT in the illustration. We're looking at perhaps making this clearer in either an update to CISPR 22 (that's in the early stages of development) or in CISPR 32 (multimedia equipment emissions standard that is also under development in CISPR SC I). Ghery Pettit From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of rehel...@mmm.com Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 9:58 AM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: CISPR 22 / ANSI C63.4 antenna-to-EUT distance I don't understand. Are you saying that the antenna needs to be moved in and out as the table is rotating? Bob Heller 3M EMC Laboratory, 76-1-01 St. Paul, MN 55107-1208 Tel: 651- 778-6336 Fax: 651-778-6252 = Pettit, Ghery ghery.pettit@int el.com To Sent by: Bill Owsley wdows...@yahoo.com emc-p...@ieee.org T.Sato vef00...@nifty.ne.jp emc-p...@ieee.org cc 02/20/2008 10:59 AM Subject RE: CISPR 22 / ANSI C63.4 antenna-to-EUT distance Actually, draw an outline of the EUT boxes on the table. Now draw a straight line between the outer edges of the boxes. As the turntable rotates the measurement distance is from the antenna to this outline. It is not a circle containing the EUT, the actual measurement point can be closer to the center of the table as it rotates. Ghery Pettit From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Bill Owsley Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 6:57 AM To: T.Sato; emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Re: CISPR 22 / ANSI C63.4 antenna-to-EUT distance I understand it to be such when the system is assembled on a turntable, which is then rotated, the system can be contained within a circle described by the outer most device as the system rotates. Then the distance is from this circle to the antenna center, however the antenna center is defined. The straight line reference might be the tangent of the circle closest to the antenna. I get to have fun when one complete product is about 1 inch in size and the next is just over 12 feet in diameter. - Bill T.Sato vef00...@nifty.ne.jp wrote: Dear experts, I have a question about definition of antenna-to-EUT distance in CISPR 22 and ANSI C63.4. CISPR 22:2005 clause 10.3.1 (Antenna-to-EUT distance) says that: Measurement of the radiated field shall be made with the antenna located at the horizontal distance from boundary of the EUT as specified in Clause 6. The boundary of the EUT is defined by an imaginary straight-line periphery describing a simple geometric configuration encompassing the EUT. This text is not very clear for me, but I think use of the imaginary straight-line periphery suggests that it is not intended to define the distance as the minimum distance between the antenna and boundary of the EUT when the EUT is rotated. I think that the Figure 2 suggests the same thing, and the figure also suggests that the distance is to be measured from front, or front or rear, of the EUT. Does anybody know clearer interpretation about this? And what about ANSI C63.4-2003, which simply says that: The specified distance is the distance between the horizontal projection onto the groundplane of the closest periphery of the EUT and the projection onto the groundplane of the center of the axis of the elements of the receiving antenna. in its clause 8.2.3? Regards, Tom -- Tomonori Sato URL: http://homepage3.nifty.com/tsato/ - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc - Bill You can say what you want about the South, but you never hear of anyone retiring and moving North!!! Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all
Re: CISPR 22 / ANSI C63.4 antenna-to-EUT distance
In message e2ceff6b0970a840bb7597dc31bec3300305a...@esebe107.noe.nokia.com, dated Wed, 20 Feb 2008, ari.honk...@nsn.com writes: This is indeed inconvenient, It certainly is, and while your work-around is OK, it would not impress the assessors! It's surprising that such a provision was accepted for the standard. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk For very important information, please turn over. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: Vibration requirements for Anechoic Chamber?
Please see comments below. Bill Owsley wrote: Could that be tested by putting on the turntable a large coil and DC current in the chamber that is vibrating and then measure what microphonics appear? This could be done but the amplitude would be proportional to the DC field and phase angle as well as the vibration. I seem to recall that our nerves, other than audio and optical, can only feel vibrations up to a few hundreds of hertz which is below the 9kHz lower regulated limit. And resonances are sinusoidal aren't they? Yes they are sinusoidal but can contain harmonics. These VLF frequencies are not an EMI problem until they modulate an RF carrier. That creates side bands at the carrier frequency. The carrier can be furnished by either an intentional or unintentional radiator. However the VLF frequencies can be a problem to the operation of low level analog circuits where they can raise the noise floor. For example, my car radio antenna resonants, vibrates, with the airflow while driving. But the AM radio stations (the only low frequency receiver I have) does not seem to be affected nor have I noticed any effects in the FM band. But at my age, all I have left is low pass audio hearing. The effect is not seen on AM stations because the vibration is small in relation to the wave length of the carrier. However at VHF AM the effect is quite noticeable and is called picket fencing. Most pilots have heard this effect at 120 MHz. You do not hear the effect on your FM band because the radios have limiters with take out the AM. Fred Townsend DC to Light - Bill Fred Townsend mailto:f...@dctolight.net f...@dctolight.net wrote: I think you have much more than shielding integrity issues to deal with. Vibrate a metal diaphragm in a magnetic field and you generate an EMF. We call intentional devices of this kind microphones and the noise they generate microphonics. These can lead to all kinds of noise problems. The building is quite likely to have directional characteristics so when a DUT is on a turn-table resonate peaks can be expected. Large devices will have more noise than small devices placed on a styrofoam table. RF sources may be modulated spreading their side bands. I would tell my facilities person any vibration I can feel is too much. It's an unknown variable you are unprepared to deal with. Fred Townsend DC to Light codymil...@micron.com wrote: We are installing a pre-compliance chamber in a room that has a HAST chamber in it. The floor in the room is a raised floor and the is some vibration that can be felt when touching or standing in the chamber? Our facilities vibration specialist is measuring and quantifying the vibration in the room, but he would like to know how much vibration is too much? My main concern is potential RF shield integrity issues which bolts working loose over time. All bolts have been torqued to 90 inch-lbs. Has anyone dealt with vibration concerns with a chamber? Thanks, Cody - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc -- Text inserted by Platinum 2007: This message has NOT been classified as spam. If it is unsolicited mail (spam), click on the following link to reclassify it: http://127.0.0.1:6083/Panda?ID=pav_241073 http://127.0.0.1:6083/Panda?ID=pav_241073SPAM=true SPAM=true -- - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc - Bill You can say what you want about the South, but you never hear of anyone retiring and moving North!!! _ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51733/*http //mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ%20 Try it now.
PSES Symposium -- Call for Papers
The 2008 IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society Symposium will be October 20-21-22 in Austin, Texas. We are seeking presentations and papers on: product safety safety and emc certification standards and standards activities safety research environmental regulations For more details, see our web site: http://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/symposium/CFP2008.pdf Author's schedule is: Intent to present and topic (e-mail): 29 April 2008 Draft e-paper/presentation: 1 June 2008 Notification of Acceptance: 6 July 2008 Complete e-paper/presentation: 17 August 2008 We have two kinds of papers. One is a PowerPoint presentation and is not subject to peer review, although it is reviewed for applicability. (This is the majority of our program.) The other is a formal paper written to IEEE specs and peer reviewed. This paper will be posted on IEEE Xplore. The paper is presented at the Symposium as a PowerPoint presentation. At this time, we are collecting intent to present. Just send me an e-mail that you intend to make a presentation and the topic. Then, we'll put you on our Speaker's list, and keep you up to date with all kinds of details to help you prepare your paper or presentation. Feel free to contact me with any questions or for further details. Best regards, Rich Richard Nute IEEE PSES Symposium, Technical Program San Diego Tel: 858-592-2620 FAX: 858-592-2620 Mobile: 858-776-1618 e-mail: ri...@ieee.org - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: CISPR 22 / ANSI C63.4 antenna-to-EUT distance
I have the 2005 version of CISPR 22 in hand and it says: The boundary of the EUT is defined by an imaginary straight-line periphery describing a simple geometric configuration encompassing the EUT. All ITE intersystem cables and connecting ITE shall be included within this boundary (see also Figure 2). In other words, if the footprint of EUT, cables and used accessories is not a circle, the test distance varies when the table is rotated. This is indeed inconvenient, and what we usually do is that we take the closest distance available using such straight-line periphery and set that as the prescribed test distance. We penalise ourselves a bit since in some azimuths one EUT corner is too close but with typical EUT's the effect is not significant since we want anyhow some margin to the limits. regards, Ari Honkala Nokia Siemens Networks From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of ext Bill Owsley Sent: 20. helmikuuta 2008 20:29 To: Pettit, Ghery; T.Sato; emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: CISPR 22 / ANSI C63.4 antenna-to-EUT distance Ghery, I don't understand your desciption. I thought the original question was to find the 3 or 10 or 30 meter distance, numbers not actually mentioned, specified in the two standards given the interesting text in the standards. For example, Figure 3 of CISPR 22:2003 shows the circle surrounding the EUT system, and the two straight lines across the center. Then the distance L is indicated from the perimeter of the circle to the antenna center. This defines the specified measuring distance of antenna to EUT system. Then if one is interested in the actual distance from antenna to EUT, given that the EUT is setup along the edge of the table such the cables hang off, a measurement would have to be made, or if good at trigonometry - calculated. Thus, as the EUT is rotated during the survey, the measuring distance - actual antenna to EUT distance, changes as the turntable rotates. Figure 5 of C63.4:2003 seems to indicate much the same - a circle indicating the EUT on a turntable. Now there has been some debate of the definition of what's being tested. Is it just the EUT part of a system setup and then the distance measurement is made from just the EUT part and not encompassing system of accessories? Or does the system, which includes the EUT, become the whole of what is being tested and thus the distance is from the edge of the system, the outer most point of the various parts? Pettit, Ghery ghery.pet...@intel.com wrote: Actually, draw an outline of the EUT boxes on the table. Now draw a straight line between the outer edges of the boxes. As the turntable rotates the measurement distance is from the antenna to this outline. It is not a circle containing the EUT, the actual measurement point can be closer to the center of the table as it rotates. Ghery Pettit From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Bill Owsley Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 6:57 AM To: T.Sato; emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Re: CISPR 22 / ANSI C63.4 antenna-to-EUT distance I understand it to be such when the system is assembled on a turntable, which is then rotated, the system can be contained within a circle described by the outer most device as the system rotates. Then the distance is from this circle to the antenna center, however the antenna center is defined. The straight line reference might be the tangent of the circle closest to the antenna. I get to have fun when one complete product is about 1 inch in size and the next is just over 12 feet in diameter. - Bill T.Sato vef00...@nifty.ne.jp wrote: Dear experts, I have a question about definition of antenna-to-EUT distance in CISPR 22 and ANSI C63.4. CISPR 22:2005 clause 10.3.1 (Antenna-to-EUT distance) says that: Measurement of the radiated field shall be made with the antenna located at the horizontal distance from boundary of the EUT as specified in Clause 6. The boundary of the EUT is defined by an imaginary straight-line periphery describing a simple geometric configuration encompassing the EUT. This text is not
RE: CISPR 22 / ANSI C63.4 antenna-to-EUT distance
Ghery, I don't understand your desciption. I thought the original question was to find the 3 or 10 or 30 meter distance, numbers not actually mentioned, specified in the two standards given the interesting text in the standards. For example, Figure 3 of CISPR 22:2003 shows the circle surrounding the EUT system, and the two straight lines across the center. Then the distance L is indicated from the perimeter of the circle to the antenna center. This defines the specified measuring distance of antenna to EUT system. Then if one is interested in the actual distance from antenna to EUT, given that the EUT is setup along the edge of the table such the cables hang off, a measurement would have to be made, or if good at trigonometry - calculated. Thus, as the EUT is rotated during the survey, the measuring distance - actual antenna to EUT distance, changes as the turntable rotates. Figure 5 of C63.4:2003 seems to indicate much the same - a circle indicating the EUT on a turntable. Now there has been some debate of the definition of what's being tested. Is it just the EUT part of a system setup and then the distance measurement is made from just the EUT part and not encompassing system of accessories? Or does the system, which includes the EUT, become the whole of what is being tested and thus the distance is from the edge of the system, the outer most point of the various parts? Pettit, Ghery ghery.pet...@intel.com wrote: Actually, draw an outline of the EUT boxes on the table. Now draw a straight line between the outer edges of the boxes. As the turntable rotates the measurement distance is from the antenna to this outline. It is not a circle containing the EUT, the actual measurement point can be closer to the center of the table as it rotates. Ghery Pettit _ From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Bill Owsley Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 6:57 AM To: T.Sato; emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Re: CISPR 22 / ANSI C63.4 antenna-to-EUT distance I understand it to be such when the system is assembled on a turntable, which is then rotated, the system can be contained within a circle described by the outer most device as the system rotates. Then the distance is from this circle to the antenna center, however the antenna center is defined. The straight line reference might be the tangent of the circle closest to the antenna. I get to have fun when one complete product is about 1 inch in size and the next is just over 12 feet in diameter. - Bill T.Sato vef00...@nifty.ne.jp wrote: Dear experts, I have a question about definition of antenna-to-EUT distance in CISPR 22 and ANSI C63.4. CISPR 22:2005 clause 10.3.1 (Antenna-to-EUT distance) says that: Measurement of the radiated field shall be made with the antenna located at the horizontal distance from boundary of the EUT as specified in Clause 6. The boundary of the EUT is defined by an imaginary straight-line periphery describing a simple geometric configuration encompassing the EUT. This text is not very clear for me, but I think use of the imaginary straight-line periphery suggests that it is not intended to define the distance as the minimum distance between the antenna and boundary of the EUT when the EUT is rotated. I think that the Figure 2 suggests the same thing, and the figure also suggests that the distance is to be measured from front, or front or rear, of the EUT. Does anybody know clearer interpretation about this? And what about ANSI C63.4-2003, which simply says that: The specified distance is the distance between the horizontal projection onto the groundplane of the closest periphery of the EUT and the projection onto the groundplane of the center of the axis of the elements of the receiving antenna. in its clause 8.2.3? Regards, Tom Tomonori Sato URL: http://homepage3.nifty.com/tsato/ - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc - Bill You can say what you want about the South, but you never hear of anyone retiring and moving North!!! _ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51733/*http /mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ%20 - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. Website:
VCCI
Can you apply a VCCI mark to your product as a Rank D supporting member of VCCI? Thanks, Bob Heller 3M EMC Laboratory, 76-1-01 St. Paul, MN 55107-1208 Tel: 651- 778-6336 Fax: 651-778-6252 = - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: CISPR 22 / ANSI C63.4 antenna-to-EUT distance
I don't understand. Are you saying that the antenna needs to be moved in and out as the table is rotating? Bob Heller 3M EMC Laboratory, 76-1-01 St. Paul, MN 55107-1208 Tel: 651- 778-6336 Fax: 651-778-6252 = Pettit, Ghery ghery.pettit@int el.comTo Sent by: Bill Owsley wdows...@yahoo.com emc-p...@ieee.org T.Sato vef00...@nifty.ne.jp emc-p...@ieee.org cc 02/20/2008 10:59 AMSubject RE: CISPR 22 / ANSI C63.4 antenna-to-EUT distance Actually, draw an outline of the EUT boxes on the table. Now draw a straight line between the outer edges of the boxes. As the turntable rotates the measurement distance is from the antenna to this outline. It is not a circle containing the EUT, the actual measurement point can be closer to the center of the table as it rotates. Ghery Pettit From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Bill Owsley Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 6:57 AM To: T.Sato; emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Re: CISPR 22 / ANSI C63.4 antenna-to-EUT distance I understand it to be such when the system is assembled on a turntable, which is then rotated, the system can be contained within a circle described by the outer most device as the system rotates. Then the distance is from this circle to the antenna center, however the antenna center is defined. The straight line reference might be the tangent of the circle closest to the antenna. I get to have fun when one complete product is about 1 inch in size and the next is just over 12 feet in diameter. - Bill T.Sato vef00...@nifty.ne.jp wrote: Dear experts, I have a question about definition of antenna-to-EUT distance in CISPR 22 and ANSI C63.4. CISPR 22:2005 clause 10.3.1 (Antenna-to-EUT distance) says that: Measurement of the radiated field shall be made with the antenna located at the horizontal distance from boundary of the EUT as specified in Clause 6. The boundary of the EUT is defined by an imaginary straight-line periphery describing a simple geometric configuration encompassing the EUT. This text is not very clear for me, but I think use of the imaginary straight-line periphery suggests that it is not intended to define the distance as the minimum distance between the antenna and boundary of the EUT when the EUT is rotated. I think that the Figure 2 suggests the same thing, and the figure also suggests that the distance is to be measured from front, or front or rear, of the EUT. Does anybody know clearer interpretation about this? And what about ANSI C63.4-2003, which simply says that: The specified distance is the distance between the horizontal projection onto the groundplane of the closest periphery of the EUT and the projection onto the groundplane of the center of the axis of the elements of the receiving antenna. in its clause 8.2.3? Regards, Tom -- Tomonori Sato URL: http://homepage3.nifty.com/tsato/ - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc - Bill You can say what you want about the South, but you never hear of anyone retiring and moving North!!! Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it
RE: CISPR 22 / ANSI C63.4 antenna-to-EUT distance
Actually, draw an outline of the EUT boxes on the table. Now draw a straight line between the outer edges of the boxes. As the turntable rotates the measurement distance is from the antenna to this outline. It is not a circle containing the EUT, the actual measurement point can be closer to the center of the table as it rotates. Ghery Pettit _ From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Bill Owsley Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 6:57 AM To: T.Sato; emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Re: CISPR 22 / ANSI C63.4 antenna-to-EUT distance I understand it to be such when the system is assembled on a turntable, which is then rotated, the system can be contained within a circle described by the outer most device as the system rotates. Then the distance is from this circle to the antenna center, however the antenna center is defined. The straight line reference might be the tangent of the circle closest to the antenna. I get to have fun when one complete product is about 1 inch in size and the next is just over 12 feet in diameter. - Bill T.Sato vef00...@nifty.ne.jp wrote: Dear experts, I have a question about definition of antenna-to-EUT distance in CISPR 22 and ANSI C63.4. CISPR 22:2005 clause 10.3.1 (Antenna-to-EUT distance) says that: Measurement of the radiated field shall be made with the antenna located at the horizontal distance from boundary of the EUT as specified in Clause 6. The boundary of the EUT is defined by an imaginary straight-line periphery describing a simple geometric configuration encompassing the EUT. This text is not very clear for me, but I think use of the imaginary straight-line periphery suggests that it is not intended to define the distance as the minimum distance between the antenna and boundary of the EUT when the EUT is rotated. I think that the Figure 2 suggests the same thing, and the figure also suggests that the distance is to be measured from front, or front or rear, of the EUT. Does anybody know clearer interpretation about this? And what about ANSI C63.4-2003, which simply says that: The specified distance is the distance between the horizontal projection onto the groundplane of the closest periphery of the EUT and the projection onto the groundplane of the center of the axis of the elements of the receiving antenna. in its clause 8.2.3? Regards, Tom Tomonori Sato URL: http://homepage3.nifty.com/tsato/ - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc - Bill You can say what you want about the South, but you never hear of anyone retiring and moving North!!! _ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51733/*http /mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ%20 it now. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: Vibration requirements for Anechoic Chamber?
Could that be tested by putting on the turntable a large coil and DC current in the chamber that is vibrating and then measure what microphonics appear? I seem to recall that our nerves, other than audio and optical, can only feel vibrations up to a few hundreds of hertz which is below the 9kHz lower regulated limit. And resonances are sinusoidal aren't they? For example, my car radio antenna resonants, vibrates, with the airflow while driving. But the AM radio stations (the only low frequency receiver I have) does not seem to be affected nor have I noticed any effects in the FM band. But at my age, all I have left is low pass audio hearing. - Bill Fred Townsend f...@dctolight.net wrote: I think you have much more than shielding integrity issues to deal with. Vibrate a metal diaphragm in a magnetic field and you generate an EMF. We call intentional devices of this kind microphones and the noise they generate microphonics. These can lead to all kinds of noise problems. The building is quite likely to have directional characteristics so when a DUT is on a turn-table resonate peaks can be expected. Large devices will have more noise than small devices placed on a styrofoam table. RF sources may be modulated spreading their side bands. I would tell my facilities person any vibration I can feel is too much. It's an unknown variable you are unprepared to deal with. Fred Townsend DC to Light codymil...@micron.com wrote: We are installing a pre-compliance chamber in a room that has a HAST chamber in it. The floor in the room is a raised floor and the is some vibration that can be felt when touching or standing in the chamber? Our facilities vibration specialist is measuring and quantifying the vibration in the room, but he would like to know how much vibration is too much? My main concern is potential RF shield integrity issues which bolts working loose over time. All bolts have been torqued to 90 inch-lbs. Has anyone dealt with vibration concerns with a chamber? Thanks, Cody - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc -- Text inserted by Platinum 2007: This message has NOT been classified as spam. If it is unsolicited mail (spam), click on the following link to reclassify it: http://127.0.0.1:6083/Panda?ID=pav_241073SPAM=true -- - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc - Bill You can say what you want about the South, but you never hear of anyone retiring and moving North!!! _ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51733/*http //mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ Try it now. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Intentional radiator (13.56 MHz smart card reader) approvals for Indonesia
Dear Experts, We are planning to sell our RFID reader that operates with 13.56 MHz transciever to an OEM at Indonesia. For this product we have already obtained FCC ID (FCC Part 15 Sub part 'C' section 15.225) and we have tested / generated reports (as per ETSI 301489 ETSI 300330) from accredited labs for the CE marking also. For placing the product in the Indonesian market do we need any other approvals specific to Indonesia? I have been told that there is no country specific approval required for Indonesia. Where can I locate information about Indonesian government regulations for product certifications. Thanking you in advance Bharath. _ Share files, take polls, and discuss your passions - all under one roof. http://in.rd.yahoo.com/tagline_groups_8/*http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups Click here. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
CISPR 22 / ANSI C63.4 antenna-to-EUT distance
Dear experts, I have a question about definition of antenna-to-EUT distance in CISPR 22 and ANSI C63.4. CISPR 22:2005 clause 10.3.1 (Antenna-to-EUT distance) says that: Measurement of the radiated field shall be made with the antenna located at the horizontal distance from boundary of the EUT as specified in Clause 6. The boundary of the EUT is defined by an imaginary straight-line periphery describing a simple geometric configuration encompassing the EUT. This text is not very clear for me, but I think use of the imaginary straight-line periphery suggests that it is not intended to define the distance as the minimum distance between the antenna and boundary of the EUT when the EUT is rotated. I think that the Figure 2 suggests the same thing, and the figure also suggests that the distance is to be measured from front, or front or rear, of the EUT. Does anybody know clearer interpretation about this? And what about ANSI C63.4-2003, which simply says that: The specified distance is the distance between the horizontal projection onto the groundplane of the closest periphery of the EUT and the projection onto the groundplane of the center of the axis of the elements of the receiving antenna. in its clause 8.2.3? Regards, Tom Tomonori Sato vef00...@nifty.ne.jp URL: http://homepage3.nifty.com/tsato/ - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Teseq AC switch - NSG 2200
All We are attempting to install an NSG 1007 power source plus NSG 2200 AC switch in out lab. Has anyone installed one of these AC switches together with a suitable power source? If so could you tell me of any particular installation requirements or problems encountered with it, please. It may be better to send replies directly. Ian Gordon *** The information contained in this email and any attachments may be confidential and is provided solely for the use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, distribution, or use of this e-mail, its attachments or any information contained therein is unauthorised and prohibited. If you have received this in error, please contact the sender immediately and delete this e-mail and any attachments. No responsibility is accepted for any virus or defect that might arise from opening this e-mail or attachments, whether or not it has been checked by anti-virus software. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
