[PSES] EN60204 Safety of machinery - Electrical equipemnt of machines
Could l please have your feedback. EN60204 appears in the OJ for the Machinery Directive, (MD) but does not give a Presumption of conformity as it is not classified as B or C standard. With other Directives if a standard is in the OJ you get a presumption of conformity, so the MD is different this respect. Just what is the status of standards which appear in the MD, OJ and are not classified as A,B or C standards We would like to use this standard, is there anything we can do to obtain the presumption of conformity or do we just have to use a different standard ? Regards Ian White Compliance and Reliability. _ Spirax-Sarco Engineering Plc. This e-mail has been scanned for viruses by Verizon Business Internet Managed Scanning Services - powered by MessageLabs. For further information visit http://www.verizonbusiness.com/uk - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] EN60204 Safety of machinery - Electrical equipemnt of machines
CENELEC has a corrigendum that is free through many standards distributors (I got mine from Estonia) Corrigendum to EN 60204-1:2006 English version ___ Annex ZZ (informative) Coverage of Essential Requirements of EC Directives This European Standard has been prepared under a mandate given to CENELEC by the European Commission and the European Free Trade Association and within its scope the standard covers only the following essential requirements out of those given in annex I of the EC Directive 2006/42/EC: - 1.2.1 - 1.2.2 - 1.2.3 - 1.2.4.1 - 1.2.4.3 - 1.2.4.4 - 1.2.6 - 1.5.1 - 1.5.4 - 1.6.3 (for isolation of electrical supplies of machinery) - 1.6.4 (for access to electrical equipment) - 1.7.0 - 1.7.1 - 1.7.1.1 - 1.7.1.2 - 1.7.2 (for residual risks of an electrical nature) - 1.7.4.2 (e) Compliance with this standard provides one means of conformity with the specified essential requirements of the Directive concerned. WARNING: Other requirements and other EC Directives may be applicable to the products falling within the scope of this standard. Regards, Lauren Crane KLA-Tencor From: Ian White (SXS UK) [mailto:ian.wh...@uk.spiraxsarco.com] Sent: Friday, June 27, 2014 4:08 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: [PSES] EN60204 Safety of machinery - Electrical equipemnt of machines Could l please have your feedback. EN60204 appears in the OJ for the Machinery Directive, (MD) but does not give a Presumption of conformity as it is not classified as B or C standard. With other Directives if a standard is in the OJ you get a presumption of conformity, so the MD is different this respect. Just what is the status of standards which appear in the MD, OJ and are not classified as A,B or C standards We would like to use this standard, is there anything we can do to obtain the presumption of conformity or do we just have to use a different standard ? Regards Ian White Compliance and Reliability. _ Spirax-Sarco Engineering Plc. This e-mail has been scanned for viruses by Verizon Business Internet Managed Scanning Services - powered by MessageLabs. For further information visit http://www.verizonbusiness.com/uk - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.orgmailto:emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.netmailto:emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.orgmailto:mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.orgmailto:j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.commailto:dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Varistor and Earthing
Hi Rich: Thanks for your efforts to help me sort through this. I've added some responses in blue text. Hi Joe: 4) Now consider the case where the ground pin on the mains plug is left floating. This can happen when an uninformed customer uses a cheater adapter to convert to a 2-pin mains outlet. In this configuration the 3000 VRMS isolation barrier has 400V SPDs connected directly across it. All that separates the PC chassis and the SELV outputs of the power supply is a pair of 400V SPDs. Note that this hazard is not contained within just the PC itself. All of the allegedly SELV user ports on the PC (USB, audio, video, etc.) are now only separated from the AC mains by the 400V SPDs. The 3000 VRMS isolation barrier has been defeated by the SPDs.Yes and no. The SPD is an open circuit until an overvoltage transient occurs. It operates when the overvoltage between the mains and ground exceeds 400 V. If the ground is defeated, there is no voltage across the SPD; it will not operate (turn on). The isolation is 3000 V. If the PC ground is defeated, and one of the ports is connected to a grounded equipment, the SPD will turn on when the voltage across the SPD exceeds 400 V. The voltage on the ground side of the SPD is likely to be high due to both the higher resistance and, more importantly, the inductance to a stable ground. Note that the 3000 V requirement is to preserve the insulation from failure at a lower voltage. The SPD presumably prevents failure of the isolation barrier at voltages that exceed 3000. (At least, that is what we safety folks prefer to believe.) There is no (or little) shock hazard from transient overvoltages. The duration is too short (50 us) to cause an injury (or a serious injury). I think that perhaps my frustration with the SPD allowances (at least for AC mains) has been due to my misunderstanding of the purpose of the 3000 VRMS requirement. I always thought that this requirement was intended to protect *users* from high voltage transients. If I'm understanding you correctly, the actual purpose is to protect the *insulation* from high voltage transients. As you have shown in previous presentations, once an insulation barrier breaks down in response to a transient (unless the breakdown path was purely an air gap), there is physical damage to the barrier that compromises its dielectric strength. So, for the long term reliability of the insulation, it is important to ensure that transients can not damage it. Also, if I am understanding you correctly, the implied requirement for protecting *users* from the AC mains is more modest, in the range if 400V peak for a 230 VRMS mains circuit. This will protect the user from the normal 230 VRMS voltages on the AC mains. Apparently the rationale is that transients on the AC mains are not a significant hazard for users. If the above interpretation is correct, I think this rationale for SPDs (at least for AC mains) holds together just fine. The 400V peak requirement is actually what protects users. For cases where a 400V SPD is placed across the isolation barrier, the reason we still impose a 3000 VRMS requirement on the insulation is to cover the case where the SPD fails open. In that case the insulation will be subjected to transients, and we need reasonable assurance that those transients will not reduce the integrity of the insulation to a level below 400V peak. 5) I believe that the scenario described in item #4 is quite plausible, but the authors of 60950 apparently concluded that this scenario is beyond their control. After all, the presumed safety of a Class I power supply also requires a reliable ground. So, the standard has to stop somewhere, and the authors apparently chose to stop at the ground pin on the AC mains plug. I can understand this choice as a philosophical decision. However, the only way the SPD allowance makes sense to me is if the authors of 60950 *assumed* the presence of a reliable ground when they allowed the SDPs to be installed.Grounding is a supplemental safeguard against electric shock. It provides protection against the failure of the basic insulation. Equipment requirements insure the integrity and reliability of the equipment ground circuit. Loss of ground is due to the installation -- which is why one would use a 3-wire to 2-wire (cheater) adapter. Loss of ground means one (of two) safeguards is lost. The equipment remains safe with one safeguard being effective. 6) Unfortunately, the notion of allowing SPDs to bridge an isolation barrier has found its way into clause 6 of 60950 (Connection to Telecommunication Networks), but the assumption of having a reliable ground appears to have been lost entirely. Clause 6.1.2.1 (Separation of the Telecommunication Network from Earth) refers only to circuitry that will be earthed in some applications. The situation is even worse in clause 6.2 (Protection of Equipment Users From Overvoltages on Telecommunication Networks). Here, neither side of the isolation barrier
Re: [PSES] EN60204 Safety of machinery - Electrical equipemnt of machines
Just because it’s not listed as an ‘A’, ‘’B’, or ‘C’ standard does not mean it does not confer a presumption of conformity. The Directive does not actually recognise the ABC hierarchy of standards - this is a feature of EN ISO 12100 and has no legislative basis. Regards Nick. On 27 Jun 2014, at 12:08, Ian White (SXS UK) ian.wh...@uk.spiraxsarco.com wrote: Could l please have your feedback. EN60204 appears in the OJ for the Machinery Directive, (MD) but does not give a Presumption of conformity as it is not classified as B or C standard. With other Directives if a standard is in the OJ you get a presumption of conformity, so the MD is different this respect. Just what is the status of standards which appear in the MD, OJ and are not classified as A,B or C standards We would like to use this standard, is there anything we can do to obtain the presumption of conformity or do we just have to use a different standard ? Regards Ian White Compliance and Reliability. Nick Williams Director Direct line: +44 1298 873811 Mobile: +44 7702 995135 email: nick.willi...@conformance.co.uk - Conformance Ltd - Product safety, approvals and CE-marking consultants The Old Methodist Chapel, Great Hucklow, Buxton, SK17 8RG England Tel. +44 1298 873800, Fax. +44 1298 873801, www.conformance.co.uk Registered in England, Company No. 3478646 - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
[PSES] Test equipment question
Am the proud new owner of an (obsolete) HP 8753 network analyzer. The unit works, but the fan doesn¹t come on when powered up. I have all the manuals, but they don¹t say whether the fan should be on at all times, or whether it is thermostatically-controlled. The unit is supposed to shut down in an overtemp situation, but that is not the same as a thermostatically-controlled fan. Anyone out there know, or know how to find out, short of trying to induce an overtemp situation? Thank you, Ken Javor Phone: (256) 650-5261 - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Varistor and Earthing
Hi Joe: I think that perhaps my frustration with the SPD allowances (at least for AC mains) has been due to my misunderstanding of the purpose of the 3000 VRMS requirement. I always thought that this requirement was intended to protect *users* from high voltage transients. If I'm understanding you correctly, the actual purpose is to protect the *insulation* from high voltage transients. Yes. If the insulation fails (due to HV transients or other causes), the ground circuit is supposed to carry the fault current thereby protecting the user. The SPD operating voltage can be any up to the required withstand level. But, designers believe that the transient voltages damage the functional circuits and therefore select the SPD operating voltage just above the peak of the mains voltage, e.g., 400 V. (I don't know if they consider the tremendous current during operation of the SPD and its magnetic field coupling to nearby conductors.) As you have shown in previous presentations, once an insulation barrier breaks down in response to a transient (unless the breakdown path was purely an air gap), there is physical damage to the barrier that compromises its dielectric strength. So, for the long term reliability of the insulation, it is important to ensure that transients can not damage it. Yes. Also, if I am understanding you correctly, the implied requirement for protecting *users* from the AC mains is more modest, in the range if 400V peak for a 230 VRMS mains circuit. This will protect the user from the normal 230 VRMS voltages on the AC mains. Apparently the rationale is that transients on the AC mains are not a significant hazard for users. Well... the last sentence is correct. I don't understand the first two sentences. The user is protected against all steady state voltages exceeding 30 V rms. There is no way we can keep transient voltages from appearing on accessible parts; due to the impedance of the source and of the ground, the ideal SPD operation will allow half the transient voltage on grounded accessible parts. If the above interpretation is correct, I think this rationale for SPDs (at least for AC mains) holds together just fine. The 400V peak requirement is actually what protects users. For cases where a 400V SPD is placed across the isolation barrier, the reason we still impose a 3000 VRMS requirement on the insulation is to cover the case where the SPD fails open. In that case the insulation will be subjected to transients, and we need reasonable assurance that those transients will not reduce the integrity of the insulation to a level below 400V peak. No and yes. The SPD is not a safety device; it does not protect users. It is there as a functional device to protect the functional circuits against transient overvoltages. It bridges an insulation that provides protection against electric shock, therefore it must not compromise that insulation either in its operation or in its failure. Best regards, Rich - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Test equipment question
Ken, Mine (8753ES) has two diagnostic LEDs on the back; one on and one off (Normal Operation). The fan is always on. If your LEDs are correct and the fan is not running, I'd say the fan is probably broken or maybe not plugged in inside the unit. On Jun 27, 2014 12:07 PM, Ken Javor ken.ja...@emccompliance.com wrote: Am the proud new owner of an (obsolete) HP 8753 network analyzer. The unit works, but the fan doesn't come on when powered up. I have all the manuals, but they don't say whether the fan should be on at all times, or whether it is thermostatically-controlled. The unit is supposed to shut down in an overtemp situation, but that is not the same as a thermostatically-controlled fan. Anyone out there know, or know how to find out, short of trying to induce an overtemp situation? Thank you, Ken Javor Phone: (256) 650-5261 - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to LT; emc-p...@ieee.orgGT; All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas LT;emcp...@radiusnorth.netGT; Mike Cantwell LT;mcantw...@ieee.orgGT; For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher LT;j.bac...@ieee.orgGT; David Heald LT;dhe...@gmail.comGT; - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Test equipment question
Mine is an ³A² model without the LEDs, but thank you for letting me know the fan should be on all the time. Ken Javor Phone: (256) 650-5261 From: Jeffrey Gilbert jeff.gilber...@gmail.com Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2014 13:41:03 -0700 To: Ken Javor ken.ja...@emccompliance.com Cc: EMC-PSTC@listserv.ieee.org Subject: Re: [PSES] Test equipment question Ken, Mine (8753ES) has two diagnostic LEDs on the back; one on and one off (Normal Operation). The fan is always on. If your LEDs are correct and the fan is not running, I'd say the fan is probably broken or maybe not plugged in inside the unit. On Jun 27, 2014 12:07 PM, Ken Javor ken.ja...@emccompliance.com wrote: Am the proud new owner of an (obsolete) HP 8753 network analyzer. The unit works, but the fan doesn¹t come on when powered up. I have all the manuals, but they don¹t say whether the fan should be on at all times, or whether it is thermostatically-controlled. The unit is supposed to shut down in an overtemp situation, but that is not the same as a thermostatically-controlled fan. Anyone out there know, or know how to find out, short of trying to induce an overtemp situation? Thank you, Ken Javor Phone: (256) 650-5261 - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to LT;emc-p...@ieee.orgGT; All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas LT;emcp...@radiusnorth.netGT; Mike Cantwell LT;mcantw...@ieee.orgGT; For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher LT;j.bac...@ieee.orgGT; David Heald LT;dhe...@gmail.comGT; - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Test equipment question
I have service manuals plus much more (138 MB zipped) on the original, A, D ES variants. A pack is already on the way to Ken; anyone else who wants a copy just email me off-list. Ed Price WB6WSN Chula Vista, CA USA 1961 Amphicar 770 2001 Fleetwood Storm 31W 2008 Ford Explorer From: Ken Javor [mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com] Sent: Friday, June 27, 2014 1:46 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Test equipment question Mine is an A model without the LEDs, but thank you for letting me know the fan should be on all the time. Ken Javor Phone: (256) 650-5261 _ From: Jeffrey Gilbert jeff.gilber...@gmail.com Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2014 13:41:03 -0700 To: Ken Javor ken.ja...@emccompliance.com Cc: EMC-PSTC@listserv.ieee.org Subject: Re: [PSES] Test equipment question Ken, Mine (8753ES) has two diagnostic LEDs on the back; one on and one off (Normal Operation). The fan is always on. If your LEDs are correct and the fan is not running, I'd say the fan is probably broken or maybe not plugged in inside the unit. On Jun 27, 2014 12:07 PM, Ken Javor ken.ja...@emccompliance.com wrote: Am the proud new owner of an (obsolete) HP 8753 network analyzer. The unit works, but the fan doesn't come on when powered up. I have all the manuals, but they don't say whether the fan should be on at all times, or whether it is thermostatically-controlled. The unit is supposed to shut down in an overtemp situation, but that is not the same as a thermostatically-controlled fan. Anyone out there know, or know how to find out, short of trying to induce an overtemp situation? Thank you, Ken Javor Phone: (256) 650-5261 - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
