Re: [PSES] Reliable means to attach thermocouple to object

2016-02-27 Thread Richard Nute 
> > You are dating yourself.  How many people on this list
> know what a TO-220 is.
> 
> Some of us also know what a CK-722 is, a 5Y3 and an 80.
> Among other things.

Ahh, yes.  And Sams Photofact.  And Hugo Gernsbach's "Radio-Electronics" 
magazine.

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Re: [PSES] Reliable means to attach thermocouple to object

2016-02-27 Thread Brian O'Connell 
TO-220 not that uncommon. Better thermal than TO-92. The more mundane linear 
regs and FETs still use TO-220. 

My dog continues to use TO-220 in his designs, but the cat prefers DPAK.

And real engineers specify TO-3 packages just to see if anyone is paying 
attention at the next design review...

Brian

-Original Message-
From: John Shinn [mailto:jmsh...@pacbell.net] 
Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2016 2:45 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Reliable means to attach thermocouple to object

Michael, 
You are dating yourself.  How many people on this list know what a TO-220 is.  

Regards

John Shinn

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 27, 2016, at 11:42 AM, Heckrotte, Michael  
> wrote:
> 
> During college I had a summer job as an electronic technician for a company 
> that made panel meters. Construction was two PCBs facing each other, one on 
> top, one on the bottom, approximately 1" high by 2" wide meter movement on 
> the front side, connector on the rear side. The layout of the two boards was 
> coordinated so that tall components on one board would face short components 
> on the other. Suffice to say, not much room for airflow...furthermore it had 
> an unvented plastic case so couldn't even use the enclosure for heatsinking.
> 
> Anyway one unit failed when the series pass transistor for the voltage 
> regulator (case style similar to TO-220, on the top board) fell out because 
> it got so hot it melted the solder on its leads.
> 
> Apart from the obvious negative effect on the solder joint, it says something 
> about the quality of the silicon that went into that batch of transistors. 
> Maybe they should have put a taller component at that location on the bottom 
> board, the meter could have continued working a while longer...or maybe not, 
> the additional heat might have resulted in a fire.
> 
> Best Regards,
> Mike
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2016 7:06 AM
> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> Subject: Re: [PSES] Reliable means to attach thermocouple to object
> 
> Hi Brian,
> 
> Thanks for your pointer to reference.  I will search them for further 
> infomration.
> 
> Apart from the semiconductor overheating, I also concern the high operating 
> temperature may bring negative effect to solder joints (become soft solder 
> and cracked joint during vibration) and other components such as solid state 
> capacitors and electrolytic capacitors, etc.
> 
> Regards.
> 
> Scott
> 
> 
> 
>> On 27 Feb, 2016, at 1:10 am, Brian O'Connell  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> UL and CSA have published specific procedures and material recommendations 
>> for T/C use in Type Tests. Most NRTLs have some type of CIP program where a 
>> sample power supply is sent to a company lab to verify test technique via 
>> TRF data veracity.
>> 
>> So the moral of the story is to use whatever technique that enables NRTL/NB 
>> acceptance of your test data. In general, cyanoacrylates are my adhesive of 
>> choice, along with Loctite 7452, where the attachment is only for limited 
>> number of tests. Adhesion is only half of the problem. The other issues that 
>> must be addressed are where the t/c is placed on the component, selection of 
>> components, and test conditions.
>> 
>> Tape is a poor choice, for many reasons, for most power supply components.
>> 
>> " ...operating at a temperature of 120 degC..." has no meaning. Test 
>> conditions and component ID? A Tj of 150deg does not mean that you are 
>> allowed 150deg on the component body. TI, ST, and others have published some 
>> good stuff on calculating component temps for power semiconductors. That 
>> said, not unusual for normal operating temp of some components in some SMPS 
>> to exceed 100deg. Of course, Arrhenius had something to say about this...
>> 
>> In any case, just calculate power dissipation for the diode, then use to 
>> calc the Tj. This will be your 'sanity check'.
>> 
>> Brian
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com]
>> Sent: Friday, February 26, 2016 8:53 AM
>> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
>> Subject: [PSES] Reliable means to attach thermocouple to object
>> 
>> I used to attach thermocouple to the object under temperature rise test 
>> using Kapton tape.  Currently I looked at an SMPS that is operating at a 
>> temperature of 120 degC under an ambient temperature of 20 degC.  The tape 
>> seems not very reliable and rigid enough for long period of testing.  Is 
>> there any other more suitable means to attach the thermocouple to such high 
>> temperature point of interest?
>> 
>> The spec quotes the max temperature of 150 degC.  Is it normal for the 
>> rectifier to have such high operating temperature?
>> 
>> Thanks and regards,
>> 
>> Scott

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering

Re: [PSES] Reliable means to attach thermocouple to object

2016-02-27 Thread Cortland Richmond 

On 2/27/2016 5:44 PM, John Shinn wrote:

You are dating yourself.  How many people on this list know what a TO-220 is.


Some of us also know what a CK-722 is, a 5Y3 and an 80. Among other things.

Cortland Richmond

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Re: [PSES] Reliable means to attach thermocouple to object

2016-02-27 Thread John Shinn 
Michael, 
You are dating yourself.  How many people on this list know what a TO-220 is.  

Regards

John Shinn

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 27, 2016, at 11:42 AM, Heckrotte, Michael  
> wrote:
> 
> During college I had a summer job as an electronic technician for a company 
> that made panel meters. Construction was two PCBs facing each other, one on 
> top, one on the bottom, approximately 1" high by 2" wide meter movement on 
> the front side, connector on the rear side. The layout of the two boards was 
> coordinated so that tall components on one board would face short components 
> on the other. Suffice to say, not much room for airflow...furthermore it had 
> an unvented plastic case so couldn't even use the enclosure for heatsinking.
> 
> Anyway one unit failed when the series pass transistor for the voltage 
> regulator (case style similar to TO-220, on the top board) fell out because 
> it got so hot it melted the solder on its leads.
> 
> Apart from the obvious negative effect on the solder joint, it says something 
> about the quality of the silicon that went into that batch of transistors. 
> Maybe they should have put a taller component at that location on the bottom 
> board, the meter could have continued working a while longer...or maybe not, 
> the additional heat might have resulted in a fire.
> 
> Best Regards,
> Mike
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2016 7:06 AM
> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> Subject: Re: [PSES] Reliable means to attach thermocouple to object
> 
> Hi Brian,
> 
> Thanks for your pointer to reference.  I will search them for further 
> infomration.
> 
> Apart from the semiconductor overheating, I also concern the high operating 
> temperature may bring negative effect to solder joints (become soft solder 
> and cracked joint during vibration) and other components such as solid state 
> capacitors and electrolytic capacitors, etc.
> 
> Regards.
> 
> Scott
> 
> 
> 
>> On 27 Feb, 2016, at 1:10 am, Brian O'Connell  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> UL and CSA have published specific procedures and material recommendations 
>> for T/C use in Type Tests. Most NRTLs have some type of CIP program where a 
>> sample power supply is sent to a company lab to verify test technique via 
>> TRF data veracity.
>> 
>> So the moral of the story is to use whatever technique that enables NRTL/NB 
>> acceptance of your test data. In general, cyanoacrylates are my adhesive of 
>> choice, along with Loctite 7452, where the attachment is only for limited 
>> number of tests. Adhesion is only half of the problem. The other issues that 
>> must be addressed are where the t/c is placed on the component, selection of 
>> components, and test conditions.
>> 
>> Tape is a poor choice, for many reasons, for most power supply components.
>> 
>> " ...operating at a temperature of 120 degC..." has no meaning. Test 
>> conditions and component ID? A Tj of 150deg does not mean that you are 
>> allowed 150deg on the component body. TI, ST, and others have published some 
>> good stuff on calculating component temps for power semiconductors. That 
>> said, not unusual for normal operating temp of some components in some SMPS 
>> to exceed 100deg. Of course, Arrhenius had something to say about this...
>> 
>> In any case, just calculate power dissipation for the diode, then use to 
>> calc the Tj. This will be your 'sanity check'.
>> 
>> Brian
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com]
>> Sent: Friday, February 26, 2016 8:53 AM
>> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
>> Subject: [PSES] Reliable means to attach thermocouple to object
>> 
>> I used to attach thermocouple to the object under temperature rise test 
>> using Kapton tape.  Currently I looked at an SMPS that is operating at a 
>> temperature of 120 degC under an ambient temperature of 20 degC.  The tape 
>> seems not very reliable and rigid enough for long period of testing.  Is 
>> there any other more suitable means to attach the thermocouple to such high 
>> temperature point of interest?
>> 
>> The spec quotes the max temperature of 150 degC.  Is it normal for the 
>> rectifier to have such high operating temperature?
>> 
>> Thanks and regards,
>> 
>> Scott
>> 
>> -
>> 
>> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society
>> emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your
>> e-mail to 
>> 
>> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
>> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
>> 
>> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
>> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in 
>> well-used formats), large files, etc.
>> 
>> Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
>> Instructions:

Re: [PSES] Reliable means to attach thermocouple to object

2016-02-27 Thread Heckrotte, Michael 
During college I had a summer job as an electronic technician for a company 
that made panel meters. Construction was two PCBs facing each other, one on 
top, one on the bottom, approximately 1" high by 2" wide meter movement on the 
front side, connector on the rear side. The layout of the two boards was 
coordinated so that tall components on one board would face short components on 
the other. Suffice to say, not much room for airflow...furthermore it had an 
unvented plastic case so couldn't even use the enclosure for heatsinking.

Anyway one unit failed when the series pass transistor for the voltage 
regulator (case style similar to TO-220, on the top board) fell out because it 
got so hot it melted the solder on its leads.

Apart from the obvious negative effect on the solder joint, it says something 
about the quality of the silicon that went into that batch of transistors. 
Maybe they should have put a taller component at that location on the bottom 
board, the meter could have continued working a while longer...or maybe not, 
the additional heat might have resulted in a fire.

Best Regards,
Mike


-Original Message-
From: Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2016 7:06 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Reliable means to attach thermocouple to object

Hi Brian,

Thanks for your pointer to reference.  I will search them for further 
infomration.

Apart from the semiconductor overheating, I also concern the high operating 
temperature may bring negative effect to solder joints (become soft solder and 
cracked joint during vibration) and other components such as solid state 
capacitors and electrolytic capacitors, etc.

Regards.

Scott



> On 27 Feb, 2016, at 1:10 am, Brian O'Connell  wrote:
>
> UL and CSA have published specific procedures and material recommendations 
> for T/C use in Type Tests. Most NRTLs have some type of CIP program where a 
> sample power supply is sent to a company lab to verify test technique via TRF 
> data veracity.
>
> So the moral of the story is to use whatever technique that enables NRTL/NB 
> acceptance of your test data. In general, cyanoacrylates are my adhesive of 
> choice, along with Loctite 7452, where the attachment is only for limited 
> number of tests. Adhesion is only half of the problem. The other issues that 
> must be addressed are where the t/c is placed on the component, selection of 
> components, and test conditions.
>
> Tape is a poor choice, for many reasons, for most power supply components.
>
> " ...operating at a temperature of 120 degC..." has no meaning. Test 
> conditions and component ID? A Tj of 150deg does not mean that you are 
> allowed 150deg on the component body. TI, ST, and others have published some 
> good stuff on calculating component temps for power semiconductors. That 
> said, not unusual for normal operating temp of some components in some SMPS 
> to exceed 100deg. Of course, Arrhenius had something to say about this...
>
> In any case, just calculate power dissipation for the diode, then use to calc 
> the Tj. This will be your 'sanity check'.
>
> Brian
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Friday, February 26, 2016 8:53 AM
> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> Subject: [PSES] Reliable means to attach thermocouple to object
>
> I used to attach thermocouple to the object under temperature rise test using 
> Kapton tape.  Currently I looked at an SMPS that is operating at a 
> temperature of 120 degC under an ambient temperature of 20 degC.  The tape 
> seems not very reliable and rigid enough for long period of testing.  Is 
> there any other more suitable means to attach the thermocouple to such high 
> temperature point of interest?
>
> The spec quotes the max temperature of 150 degC.  Is it normal for the 
> rectifier to have such high operating temperature?
>
> Thanks and regards,
>
> Scott
>
> -
> 
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society
> emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your
> e-mail to 
>
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
>
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
> formats), large files, etc.
>
> Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
> Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to
> unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
>
> For help, send mail to the list administrators:
> Scott Douglas 
> Mike Cantwell 
>
> For policy questions, send mail to:
> Jim Bacher:  
> David Heald: 

-

This

Re: [PSES] Reliable means to attach thermocouple to object

2016-02-27 Thread Scott Xe 
Hi Brian,

Thanks for your advice!  The thermal imaging camera is a good and effective 
equipment to find out the hot spot.  Do you have any idea of the cost of 
equipment and operation?

Regards,

Scott

> On 27 Feb, 2016, at 2:56 am, Kunde, Brian  wrote:
> 
> Brian brings up a good point. Where is the best place to put the thermocouple.
> 
> If the location is critical, we use two methods; one is a touchless 
> thermometer. These are cheap. Less than $25 at most places like Harbor 
> Freight. You are only looking for the hot spots. Method #2 is we go borrow 
> the thermal imaging camera from R We can quickly locate the hot spots and 
> mark it with a Sharpie. Then glue the thermocouples at those locations.
> 
> As the cost of thermal imaging cameras are coming down, we are hoping to buy 
> our own very soon.
> 
> The Other Brian
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Brian O'Connell [mailto:oconne...@tamuracorp.com]
> Sent: Friday, February 26, 2016 12:11 PM
> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> Subject: Re: [PSES] Reliable means to attach thermocouple to object
> 
> UL and CSA have published specific procedures and material recommendations 
> for T/C use in Type Tests. Most NRTLs have some type of CIP program where a 
> sample power supply is sent to a company lab to verify test technique via TRF 
> data veracity.
> 
> So the moral of the story is to use whatever technique that enables NRTL/NB 
> acceptance of your test data. In general, cyanoacrylates are my adhesive of 
> choice, along with Loctite 7452, where the attachment is only for limited 
> number of tests. Adhesion is only half of the problem. The other issues that 
> must be addressed are where the t/c is placed on the component, selection of 
> components, and test conditions.
> 
> Tape is a poor choice, for many reasons, for most power supply components.
> 
> " ...operating at a temperature of 120 degC..." has no meaning. Test 
> conditions and component ID? A Tj of 150deg does not mean that you are 
> allowed 150deg on the component body. TI, ST, and others have published some 
> good stuff on calculating component temps for power semiconductors. That 
> said, not unusual for normal operating temp of some components in some SMPS 
> to exceed 100deg. Of course, Arrhenius had something to say about this...
> 
> In any case, just calculate power dissipation for the diode, then use to calc 
> the Tj. This will be your 'sanity check'.
> 
> Brian
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Friday, February 26, 2016 8:53 AM
> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> Subject: [PSES] Reliable means to attach thermocouple to object
> 
> I used to attach thermocouple to the object under temperature rise test using 
> Kapton tape.  Currently I looked at an SMPS that is operating at a 
> temperature of 120 degC under an ambient temperature of 20 degC.  The tape 
> seems not very reliable and rigid enough for long period of testing.  Is 
> there any other more suitable means to attach the thermocouple to such high 
> temperature point of interest?
> 
> The spec quotes the max temperature of 150 degC.  Is it normal for the 
> rectifier to have such high operating temperature?
> 
> Thanks and regards,
> 
> Scott
> 
> -
> 
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
> 
> 
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
> 
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
> formats), large files, etc.
> 
> Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
> Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to 
> unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
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> Mike Cantwell 
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> mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you.
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> -
> 
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
> 
> 
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
> 
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for

Re: [PSES] Reliable means to attach thermocouple to object

2016-02-27 Thread Scott Xe 
Hi Rich,

My investigation may result in a safety failure.  From the external case, it 
melt a small hole inside out close to the rectifier.  If the user touched the 
case, he or she will get burnt.  The design seems not to have taken care about 
all effects of overheating.  Hope to identify the possible deficiencies and 
determine improvement plans.

Regards,

Scott


> On 27 Feb, 2016, at 2:42 am, Richard Nute  wrote:
> 
>> " ...operating at a temperature of 120 degC..."
> has no
>> meaning. Test conditions and component ID? A Tj
> of
>> 150deg does not mean that you are allowed 150deg
> on the
>> component body. TI, ST, and others have
> published some
>> good stuff on calculating component temps for
> power
>> semiconductors. That said, not unusual for
> normal operating
>> temp of some components in some SMPS to exceed
> 100deg.
>> Of course, Arrhenius had something to say about
> this...
> 
> For safety purposes, the only temperatures that
> count are the temperatures of safeguard
> insulations (basic, supplementary, and
> reinforced), and accessible parts.  
> 
> For years, certification houses have measured
> transistors, diodes, and electrolytic capacitors,
> but they don't count for preserving the safeguard;
> failure of these kinds of components do not create
> the possibility of electric shock or thermal burn.
> (Failure of these kinds of components may result
> in fire, but control of component temperature does
> not predict whether or not failure of the
> component will cause a fire.)
> 
> 
> Rich
> 
> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Brian O'Connell
>> [mailto:oconne...@tamuracorp.com]
>> Sent: Friday, February 26, 2016 9:11 AM
>> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
>> Subject: Re: [PSES] Reliable means to attach
> thermocouple
>> to object
>> 
>> UL and CSA have published specific procedures
> and
>> material recommendations for T/C use in Type
> Tests. Most
>> NRTLs have some type of CIP program where a
> sample
>> power supply is sent to a company lab to verify
> test
>> technique via TRF data veracity.
>> 
>> So the moral of the story is to use whatever
> technique that
>> enables NRTL/NB acceptance of your test data. In
> general,
>> cyanoacrylates are my adhesive of choice, along
> with
>> Loctite 7452, where the attachment is only for
> limited
>> number of tests. Adhesion is only half of the
> problem. The
>> other issues that must be addressed are where
> the t/c is
>> placed on the component, selection of
> components, and test
>> conditions.
>> 
>> Tape is a poor choice, for many reasons, for
> most power
>> supply components.
>> 
>> " ...operating at a temperature of 120 degC..."
> has no
>> meaning. Test conditions and component ID? A Tj
> of
>> 150deg does not mean that you are allowed 150deg
> on the
>> component body. TI, ST, and others have
> published some
>> good stuff on calculating component temps for
> power
>> semiconductors. That said, not unusual for
> normal operating
>> temp of some components in some SMPS to exceed
> 100deg.
>> Of course, Arrhenius had something to say about
> this...
>> 
>> In any case, just calculate power dissipation
> for the diode,
>> then use to calc the Tj. This will be your
> 'sanity check'.
>> 
>> Brian
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com]
>> Sent: Friday, February 26, 2016 8:53 AM
>> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
>> Subject: [PSES] Reliable means to attach
> thermocouple to
>> object
>> 
>> I used to attach thermocouple to the object
> under
>> temperature rise test using Kapton tape.
> Currently I looked
>> at an SMPS that is operating at a temperature of
> 120 degC
>> under an ambient temperature of 20 degC.  The
> tape seems
>> not very reliable and rigid enough for long
> period of testing.
>> Is there any other more suitable means to attach
> the
>> thermocouple to such high temperature point of
> interest?
>> 
>> The spec quotes the max temperature of 150 degC.
> Is it
>> normal for the rectifier to have such high
> operating
>> temperature?
>> 
>> Thanks and regards,
>> 
>> Scott
>> 
>> -
>> 
> --
> --
>> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety
> Engineering
>> Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a
> message to the
>> list, send your e-mail to 
>> 
>> All emc-pstc postings are archived and
> searchable on the
>> web at:
>> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
>> 
>> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES
> Online
>> Communities site at
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/
>> can be used for graphics (in well-used formats),
> large files,
>> etc.
>> 
>> Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
>> Instructions:
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including
>> how to unsubscribe)
>> List rules:
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
>> 
>> For help, send mail to the list administrators:
>> Scott Douglas 
>> Mike Cantwell 
>> 
>>

Re: [PSES] Reliable means to attach thermocouple to object

2016-02-27 Thread Scott Xe 
Hi Daniele,

Thanks for your good UL ref.  We should use standard method to improve 
repeatable result.

Regards,

Scott


> On 27 Feb, 2016, at 1:58 am, Daniele Conforti  
> wrote:
> 
> Take a look at these, taken from UL Data Acceptance Program Tools and IECEE 
> Guides:
> 
> 
> http://ul.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/00-OP-C0037.pdf 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.iecee.org/Operational_documents/iecee_documents/od-5012_ed.1.0.pdf 
> 
> 
> 
> ​Daniele​ Conforti
> 
> 
> 
> 2016-02-26 18:12 GMT+01:00 Kunde, Brian  >:
> Scott,
> 
> Year ago we used Tac Pac with a spray accelerator. Just place a dab of glue 
> where you want it, insert the thermocouple, then spray it with the 
> accelerator and it would instantly harden.  To remove, we used some kind of 
> solvent (acetone?).  Just a drop would start to soften the glue and within 30 
> seconds you could pull the thermocouple out for re-use.
> 
> I don't recall the product numbers but a little research should find them 
> easy enough. I think it was something like Loctite 444 adhesive with 
> accelerator kit. The accelerator was 7452 and came either in a small spray 
> can or in a bottle.  There are probably new formulas today that work just as 
> good.
> 
> Some glue the thermocouple up slightly from the end and then use thermal 
> paste on the end. It is messy and we  didn't really see much difference in 
> our test results.
> 
> The Other Brian
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com ]
> Sent: Friday, February 26, 2016 11:53 AM
> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG 
> Subject: [PSES] Reliable means to attach thermocouple to object
> 
> I used to attach thermocouple to the object under temperature rise test using 
> Kapton tape.  Currently I looked at an SMPS that is operating at a 
> temperature of 120 degC under an ambient temperature of 20 degC.  The tape 
> seems not very reliable and rigid enough for long period of testing.  Is 
> there any other more suitable means to attach the thermocouple to such high 
> temperature point of interest?
> 
> The spec quotes the max temperature of 150 degC.  Is it normal for the 
> rectifier to have such high operating temperature?
> 
> Thanks and regards,
> 
> Scott
> 
> -
> 
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
> >
> 
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Re: [PSES] Reliable means to attach thermocouple to object

2016-02-27 Thread Scott Xe 
Dear Ken,

Learned something new from your info.  Many thanks!

Regards.

Scott

> On 27 Feb, 2016, at 1:56 am, IBM Ken  wrote:
> 
> Hi Scott;
> 
> You may not be required to use it, but the IECEE's Operational Document 5012 
> (the previous document, OP-108 was superseded by OD-5012 last year) describes 
> methods for preparing, attaching, extending, and using thermocouples.
> 
> Sections 8.4 through 8.6 cover the attachment of thermocouples to the EUT.  A 
> few of the methods described may be surprising to some.
> 
> It is available free of charge here:   
> http://www.iecee.org/Operational_documents/iecee_documents/od-5012_ed.1.0.pdf 
> 
> 
> -Ken A.
> 
> On Fri, Feb 26, 2016 at 11:52 AM, Scott Xe  > wrote:
> I used to attach thermocouple to the object under temperature rise test using 
> Kapton tape.  Currently I looked at an SMPS that is operating at a 
> temperature of 120 degC under an ambient temperature of 20 degC.  The tape 
> seems not very reliable and rigid enough for long period of testing.  Is 
> there any other more suitable means to attach the thermocouple to such high 
> temperature point of interest?
> 
> The spec quotes the max temperature of 150 degC.  Is it normal for the 
> rectifier to have such high operating temperature?
> 
> Thanks and regards,
> 
> Scott
> 
> -
> 
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
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> 
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>  can be used for graphics (in 
> well-used formats), large files, etc.
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Re: [PSES] Reliable means to attach thermocouple to object

2016-02-27 Thread Scott Xe 
Hi Brian,

Thanks for your pointer to reference.  I will search them for further 
infomration.

Apart from the semiconductor overheating, I also concern the high operating 
temperature may bring negative effect to solder joints (become soft solder and 
cracked joint during vibration) and other components such as solid state 
capacitors and electrolytic capacitors, etc.

Regards.

Scott



> On 27 Feb, 2016, at 1:10 am, Brian O'Connell  wrote:
> 
> UL and CSA have published specific procedures and material recommendations 
> for T/C use in Type Tests. Most NRTLs have some type of CIP program where a 
> sample power supply is sent to a company lab to verify test technique via TRF 
> data veracity.
> 
> So the moral of the story is to use whatever technique that enables NRTL/NB 
> acceptance of your test data. In general, cyanoacrylates are my adhesive of 
> choice, along with Loctite 7452, where the attachment is only for limited 
> number of tests. Adhesion is only half of the problem. The other issues that 
> must be addressed are where the t/c is placed on the component, selection of 
> components, and test conditions.
> 
> Tape is a poor choice, for many reasons, for most power supply components.
> 
> " ...operating at a temperature of 120 degC..." has no meaning. Test 
> conditions and component ID? A Tj of 150deg does not mean that you are 
> allowed 150deg on the component body. TI, ST, and others have published some 
> good stuff on calculating component temps for power semiconductors. That 
> said, not unusual for normal operating temp of some components in some SMPS 
> to exceed 100deg. Of course, Arrhenius had something to say about this... 
> 
> In any case, just calculate power dissipation for the diode, then use to calc 
> the Tj. This will be your 'sanity check'.
> 
> Brian
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com] 
> Sent: Friday, February 26, 2016 8:53 AM
> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> Subject: [PSES] Reliable means to attach thermocouple to object
> 
> I used to attach thermocouple to the object under temperature rise test using 
> Kapton tape.  Currently I looked at an SMPS that is operating at a 
> temperature of 120 degC under an ambient temperature of 20 degC.  The tape 
> seems not very reliable and rigid enough for long period of testing.  Is 
> there any other more suitable means to attach the thermocouple to such high 
> temperature point of interest?
> 
> The spec quotes the max temperature of 150 degC.  Is it normal for the 
> rectifier to have such high operating temperature?
> 
> Thanks and regards,
> 
> Scott  
> 
> -
> 
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
> 
> 
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Re: [PSES] Reliable means to attach thermocouple to object

2016-02-27 Thread Scott Xe 
Hi Brian,

Thanks for your advice about the use of spray type application!

Regards,

Scott


> On 27 Feb, 2016, at 1:34 am, Brian O'Connell  wrote:
> 
> Generally agree, but be careful with using a spray-type application for the 
> accelerant. Prefer to use an eye dropper. Had a tech, while doing tests for 
> UL5085-3, that caught a small linear transformer on fire because the (very 
> volatile) accelerant had not completely evaporated after spray application, 
> and had been applied over a 2x2cm area.
> 
> Thermal paste, by itself, can be adiabatic (may actually expand to insulate), 
> and is essentially a contaminate unless compressed between two parallel 
> surfaces. Should never be used around TCs for type tests. Cured cyanoacrylate 
> is essentially diabatic.
> 
> The glue line must be very thin, and must hold the TC bead in firm, static 
> mechanical contact with the component.
> 
> Wrote a tutorial about thermal test technique and error sources about 10 
> years ago, that showed up at two NRTLs, but was never accepted by the IEEE 
> PSES. Should be sitting somewhere on one of the servers, will try to find it.
> 
> Of course the best accelerant for TC adhesives are the tears of the sales and 
> marketing directors.
> 
> Brian
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com] 
> Sent: Friday, February 26, 2016 9:13 AM
> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> Subject: Re: [PSES] Reliable means to attach thermocouple to object
> 
> Scott,
> 
> Year ago we used Tac Pac with a spray accelerator. Just place a dab of glue 
> where you want it, insert the thermocouple, then spray it with the 
> accelerator and it would instantly harden.  To remove, we used some kind of 
> solvent (acetone?).  Just a drop would start to soften the glue and within 30 
> seconds you could pull the thermocouple out for re-use.
> 
> I don't recall the product numbers but a little research should find them 
> easy enough. I think it was something like Loctite 444 adhesive with 
> accelerator kit. The accelerator was 7452 and came either in a small spray 
> can or in a bottle.  There are probably new formulas today that work just as 
> good.
> 
> Some glue the thermocouple up slightly from the end and then use thermal 
> paste on the end. It is messy and we  didn't really see much difference in 
> our test results.
> 
> The Other Brian
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Friday, February 26, 2016 11:53 AM
> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> Subject: [PSES] Reliable means to attach thermocouple to object
> 
> I used to attach thermocouple to the object under temperature rise test using 
> Kapton tape.  Currently I looked at an SMPS that is operating at a 
> temperature of 120 degC under an ambient temperature of 20 degC.  The tape 
> seems not very reliable and rigid enough for long period of testing.  Is 
> there any other more suitable means to attach the thermocouple to such high 
> temperature point of interest?
> 
> The spec quotes the max temperature of 150 degC.  Is it normal for the 
> rectifier to have such high operating temperature?
> 
> Thanks and regards,
> 
> Scott
> 
> -
> 
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
> 
> 
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> 
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> formats), large files, etc.
> 
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For

Re: [PSES] Reliable means to attach thermocouple to object

2016-02-27 Thread Scott Xe 
Brian,

Thanks for useful info.  It sounds a good means for my application.  Do I need 
to concern the heat conductivity between the point of interest and 
thermocouple?  What is the highest temperature for this glue?

Thanks and regards,

Scott


> On 27 Feb, 2016, at 1:12 am, Kunde, Brian  wrote:
> 
> Scott,
> 
> Year ago we used Tac Pac with a spray accelerator. Just place a dab of glue 
> where you want it, insert the thermocouple, then spray it with the 
> accelerator and it would instantly harden.  To remove, we used some kind of 
> solvent (acetone?).  Just a drop would start to soften the glue and within 30 
> seconds you could pull the thermocouple out for re-use.
> 
> I don't recall the product numbers but a little research should find them 
> easy enough. I think it was something like Loctite 444 adhesive with 
> accelerator kit. The accelerator was 7452 and came either in a small spray 
> can or in a bottle.  There are probably new formulas today that work just as 
> good.
> 
> Some glue the thermocouple up slightly from the end and then use thermal 
> paste on the end. It is messy and we  didn't really see much difference in 
> our test results.
> 
> The Other Brian
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Friday, February 26, 2016 11:53 AM
> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> Subject: [PSES] Reliable means to attach thermocouple to object
> 
> I used to attach thermocouple to the object under temperature rise test using 
> Kapton tape.  Currently I looked at an SMPS that is operating at a 
> temperature of 120 degC under an ambient temperature of 20 degC.  The tape 
> seems not very reliable and rigid enough for long period of testing.  Is 
> there any other more suitable means to attach the thermocouple to such high 
> temperature point of interest?
> 
> The spec quotes the max temperature of 150 degC.  Is it normal for the 
> rectifier to have such high operating temperature?
> 
> Thanks and regards,
> 
> Scott
> 
> -
> 
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
> 
> 
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> formats), large files, etc.
> 
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Re: [PSES] Reliable means to attach thermocouple to object

2016-02-27 Thread Scott Xe 
Hi Rodney & Scott,

Thanks for your info!  I will try to get it for studying.

Regards,

Scott


> On 27 Feb, 2016, at 1:12 am, Scott Aldous 
> <0220f70c299a-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org 
> > wrote:
> 
> Hi Scott,
> 
> Though not relevant to your product, UL 1741 has requirements on how to hold 
> a TC in contact with the surface being measured that may be useful. Use of 
> tape is not allowed except as strain relief only. If you are a UL customer, 
> you should be able to access the standard. See clause 43.8.
> 
> When I was at UL, we used an adhesive with accelerator, similar to Rodney's 
> suggestion.
> 
> On Fri, Feb 26, 2016 at 9:08 AM, Rodney Davis  > wrote:
> I have never heard of taping a thermocouple.
> may i suggest simple Loctite and eccelerator for quick application, a dip of 
> thermal transfer paste would also be good for good concise measurements.
> 
> Rodney Davis
> 
> From: Scott Xe >
> Sent: Friday, February 26, 2016 11:52 AM
> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG 
> Subject: [PSES] Reliable means to attach thermocouple to object
> 
> I used to attach thermocouple to the object under temperature rise test using 
> Kapton tape.  Currently I looked at an SMPS that is operating at a 
> temperature of 120 degC under an ambient temperature of 20 degC.  The tape 
> seems not very reliable and rigid enough for long period of testing.  Is 
> there any other more suitable means to attach the thermocouple to such high 
> temperature point of interest?
> 
> The spec quotes the max temperature of 150 degC.  Is it normal for the 
> rectifier to have such high operating temperature?
> 
> Thanks and regards,
> 
> Scott
> 
> -
> 
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
> >
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>  can be used for graphics (in 
> well-used formats), large files, etc.
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