Re: [PSES] RED products in EMC compliance part

[Charlie Blackham]

Scott

I understand the issue you describe, however it should be remembered that:

  *   The manufacturer is always responsible , whoever advises them. If they 
are going to ask a 3rd party (lab or consultant) then they should satisfy 
themselves that the advice is correct, perhaps by asking what the 
recommendation is based on.
  *   A test lab cannot issue a “Declaration of Conformity” only a manufacturer 
(or suitably contracted representative) can do that – test labs should (only) 
issue “Certificates of Conformity” as a summary of test results, which are not 
the same thing
  *   Copying someone else who got it wrong isn’t much of a defence

In my experience, you should be prepared for challenges from market 
surveillance if you don’t apply Harmonised Standards (but whether you actually 
get challenged may be down to luck and whether your product type has been 
selected for market surveillance activity)

Regards
Charlie

Charlie Blackham
Sulis Consultants Ltd
Tel: +44 (0)7946 624317
Web: 
www.sulisconsultants.com
Registered in England and Wales, number 05466247

From: Scott Xe 
Sent: 20 June 2018 17:31
To: Charlie Blackham 
Cc: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] RED products in EMC compliance part

Hi Charlie,

Understand that the manufacturer is free to choose any conformity assessment to 
meet the essential requirements for EMC without using a Notified Body.  However 
the manufacturer must have expert in this area to provide the appropriate 
advice.  Most of oem manufacturers lack of such luxury resource and reply on 
renowned test houses to do it for them.  Can we use the declaration of 
conformity from the test lab for selecting the right test standards for EMC 
part even those standards are not in RED and EMC harmonized lists.  Would we 
receive extra challenges from the market surveillances due to the fact that we 
use non harmonized standards.

Thanks and regards,

Scott

On 21 June 2018 at 00:12, Charlie Blackham 
mailto:char...@sulisconsultants.com>> wrote:
Scott

EN 55035 is the (only) article 3.1(b) EMC standard that is Harmonised for 
broadcast receivers under the RED.

As per RED article 17, the manufacturer is free to choose any conformity 
assessment to meet the essential requirements for EMC without using a Notified 
Body, but:

  *   Your approach to EMC needs to be considered in your Risk Assessment 
(whether or not a Harmonised Standard is applied)
  *   Market enforcement and customs would “expect” to see Harmonised Standards 
such as EN 55035:2017 listed on the DoC

If the DAB radio contains Bluetooth then EN 301 489-1 and -17 would also apply, 
though these won’t be in the OJ until Q4 2017 or Q1 2018

Regards
Charlie

Charlie Blackham
Sulis Consultants Ltd
Tel: +44 (0)7946 624317
Web: 
www.sulisconsultants.com
Registered in England and Wales, number 05466247

From: Scott Xe mailto:scott...@gmail.com>>
Sent: 20 June 2018 16:05
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] RED products in EMC compliance part

Dear All,

We have a DAB radio with BT speaker.  It held NB a cert using EN 55032 : 2015,  
EN 55020 : 2007 + A12 : 2016, ….  for EMC part compliance last year.  Currently 
we are reviewing the continual compliance.  It is discovered that both EN 55032 
and EN 55020 disappears in the latest list of EMC harmonized standard list.  In 
RED harmonized standard list, there is a new harmonized standard EN 55035.  Is 
it in need of meeting EN 55035 : 2017 instead of EN 55020 : 2007 to maintain 
the continual compliance of RED?

Thanks and regards,

Scott
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Re: [PSES] ESD question

[Ken Javor]

Michael,

I downloaded those two articles from the In Compliance magazine web site. I
recall reading them at the time (2011) but I will re-read them with greater
attention.

Thank you,

Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261



From: "Wm. Michael King" 
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2018 09:20:42 -0700
To: "Grasso, Charles" 
Cc: Ken Javor , "EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG"

Subject: RE: [PSES] ESD question

Charles,
I've interacted with Ken on occasion through a LinkedIn EMC group. I see by
scrolling down through this thread that there are several components to the
conversation. As you have implied, I have a very rich and delineated history
of how this all started, and how it evolved over the decades since
approximately 1979 since much of it is based on my original research.

Since this appears to be involved with a ListServ, I have a simple
suggestion for anyone that might be interested in both the research and the
history. Please visit the web site of InCompliance Magazine. When there ask
for the archive under my name: W. Michael King. The majority of the ESD
details are there in a two-part serialized piece. Others are in posted on my
web site: systemsemc.com.

Thank you for the kind reference.

Michael

At 02:08 PM 6/19/2018, Grasso, Charles wrote:
> Ken,
>  
> The gun model is derived from extensive research by Mike King and others
> (David Pommerenke) to derive
> a pulse that reflects an ESD event from a human with an intervening metal
> object. 
>  
> I have copied Mike for his input. Dr Pommerenke is on the EMC blog.
>  
>  
> Thanks
>  
> Charles Grasso
> (w) 303-706-5467
>  
>  
>  
>  
> From: Ken Javor [ mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com
>  ]
> Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2018 2:35 PM
> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> Subject: Re: [PSES] ESD question
>  
> 
>  This message originated outside of DISH and was sent by:
> owner-emc-p...@listserv.ieee.org
> What with Doug Smith being active in this sort of standard writing activity, I
> doubt it‚s simply inertia.
> 
> Ken Javor
> Phone: (256) 650-5261
> 
> 
> From: John Woodgate 
> Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2018 21:26:38 +0100
> To: Ken Javor < ken.ja...@emccompliance.com
>  >, < EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
>  >
> Subject: Re: [PSES] ESD question
> 
>
> 
> Probably handed down on a stone tablet in 1910 and no-one had the courage to
> challenge it yet. (;-)
> 
>  
> John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
> J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk  <
> http://www.woodjohn.uk  >
> Rayleigh, Essex UK
>  
> On 2018-06-19 21:18, Ken Javor wrote:
>  
>  
> ESD question Anyone out there know the origins of the 150 pF/330 ohm gun model
> used in EN61000-4-2 and derivative standards? It seems it ought to be a human
> body model, but it isn't.
>  
>  Ken Javor
>  Phone: (256) 650-5261 -
>  
>  
> 
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to
> 
>  
> 
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
>  
> 
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used
> formats), large files, etc.
>  
> 
> Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
>  Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to
> unsubscribe) < http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html
>  >
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>  
> -
> 
> 
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> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to
> 
> 
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> formats), large files, etc.
> 
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Re: [PSES] ESD question

[Nyffenegger, Dave]

Wah???  You had to actually touch the TV to change the channel?

From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk]
Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2018 11:52 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] ESD question


It's probably not ethnicity directly, but skin resistance. This varies greatly 
between people. Long years ago, when we had touch-contact channel change on 
TVs, we had to double the sensitivity so that one particular person in the lab 
could work it. When we took sets to a show, someone turned up who couldn't work 
it.  We found it necessary to double the sensitivity again.  If you think about 
a person standing in the ESD field as a large (poorly-) conducting body, you 
can see why the effect can occur.

John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only

J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk

Rayleigh, Essex UK
On 2018-06-20 14:06, Jim Hulbert wrote:
Somewhere, I have copies of the discharge waveforms (captured on a scope) from 
human subjects that Michael King recruited during his studies.  As I recall, 
the amplitude of the ESD pulses was limited to about 10kV as the subjects 
started to balk.

I believe Michael’s studies also led to the development of the Andy Hish 255 
probe.  The waveform from that probe, which was a long wand grasped in the 
hand, was influenced by the human body capacitance of the technician performing 
the tests.   There was a situation some years ago in our EMC Lab, where my 
associate and I both consistently passed a product for ESD using the Andy Hish 
probe, which was our corporate standard tester at the time.  However, an intern 
working with us consistently failed the product.  We did our best to make sure 
we were all following the exact same test technique.   The only difference my 
associate and I could think of was that the intern was of a different ethnicity 
than us.  We didn’t dare mention that, however.

Jim Hulbert



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Re: [PSES] ESD question

[Ken Javor]

I wouldn¹t lay claim to the mantle of ³great engineer,² but I have had a
very successful and fulfilling career, and greatly exceeded my expectations
going into the field.

While the names of my mentors might not mean much to most of you,  it is the
specific knowledge and skills I was able to access from each that is
important.

>From Bill Briles, who worked in aerospace and military aviation, I learned
empiricism, in a sense. That is, to learn a lot of the facts and sources and
to be able to quote chapter and verse on any topic of interest.  He was a
master of quoting any relevant military standard on just about any
electrical engineering topic.

>From H. David Fassburg, a radar systems and EMC engineer, I learned to think
about things and analyze them, not merely quote chapter and verse from some
authority. Both empirical knowledge and analytical skills are necessary.

And finally, from Mark Nave, five years my junior, I learned to look at EMC
engineering not only as a technical skill, but as a profession.  Mark Nave
ignited the desire to be in business for myself, and imparted some of the
skills and knowledge to do so (in addition to teaching me a great deal of
EMC design principles).

It also helped that at the same time Mark Nave was providing a good Force,
there was a dark Force propelling me out the door of my employer.  I owe as
much to a particularly unpleasant boss in this regard.

But I had had such in the past with no such response or even consideration
on my part, so it took both the bad Force of a bad boss and the good Force
to push me successfully in the right direction.

Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261



From: Douglas Smith 
Reply-To: Douglas Smith 
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2018 09:16:45 -0700
To: 
Subject: Re: [PSES] ESD question


I also have a copy of those waveforms and a paper Michael King wrote on one
of my older Macs, can likely find it if needed.

I was lucky to have been mentored by Michael King when I was younger. He is
a great scientist/engineer and had a great effect on me.

I was fortunate to have four great mentors in my life: my Father, George
Florio (who got me into this field at age ten and helped me to become an
engineer by age 14), Henry Ott, and Michael King. I can¹t imagine my life
without these great men.

Maybe others can post about mentors who helped them become engineers.

Doug Smith
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone:  408-858-4528
Office:702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org
Website: http://dsmith.org

On Wed, Jun 20, 2018 at 8:52, John Woodgate  wrote:
> 
>  
> 
> It's probably not ethnicity directly, but skin resistance. This varies greatly
> between people. Long years ago, when we had touch-contact channel change on
> TVs, we had to double the sensitivity so that one particular person in the lab
> could work it. When we took sets to a show, someone turned up who couldn't
> work it.  We found it necessary to double the sensitivity again.  If you think
> about a person standing in the ESD field as a large (poorly-) conducting body,
> you can see why the effect can occur.
>  
>  
> John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
> J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk 
> Rayleigh, Essex UK
>  
> On 2018-06-20 14:06, Jim Hulbert wrote:
>  
>  
>>  
>>  
>> 
>> Somewhere, I have copies of the discharge waveforms (captured on a scope)
>> from human subjects that Michael King recruited during his studies.  As I
>> recall, the amplitude of the ESD pulses was limited to about 10kV as the
>> subjects started to balk.
>>  
>>  
>>  
>> I believe Michael¹s studies also led to the development of the Andy Hish 255
>> probe.  The waveform from that probe, which was a long wand grasped in the
>> hand, was influenced by the human body capacitance of the technician
>> performing the tests.   There was a situation some years ago in our EMC Lab,
>> where my associate and I both consistently passed a product for ESD using the
>> Andy Hish probe, which was our corporate standard tester at the time.
>> However, an intern working with us consistently failed the product.  We did
>> our best to make sure we were all following the exact same test technique.
>> The only difference my associate and I could think of was that the intern was
>> of a different ethnicity than us.  We didn¹t dare mention that, however.
>>  
>>  
>>  
>>  
>> 
>> Jim Hulbert
>>  
>>  
>>  
>>  
>>  
>>  
>  
>  
> -
> 
> 
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to
> 
> 
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
> 
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used
> formats), large files, etc.
> 
> Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
> Instructions:  

Re: [PSES] RED products in EMC compliance part

[Charlie Blackham]

Scott

EN 55035 is the (only) article 3.1(b) EMC standard that is Harmonised for 
broadcast receivers under the RED.

As per RED article 17, the manufacturer is free to choose any conformity 
assessment to meet the essential requirements for EMC without using a Notified 
Body, but:

  *   Your approach to EMC needs to be considered in your Risk Assessment 
(whether or not a Harmonised Standard is applied)
  *   Market enforcement and customs would “expect” to see Harmonised Standards 
such as EN 55035:2017 listed on the DoC

If the DAB radio contains Bluetooth then EN 301 489-1 and -17 would also apply, 
though these won’t be in the OJ until Q4 2017 or Q1 2018

Regards
Charlie

Charlie Blackham
Sulis Consultants Ltd
Tel: +44 (0)7946 624317
Web: 
www.sulisconsultants.com
Registered in England and Wales, number 05466247

From: Scott Xe 
Sent: 20 June 2018 16:05
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] RED products in EMC compliance part

Dear All,

We have a DAB radio with BT speaker.  It held NB a cert using EN 55032 : 2015,  
EN 55020 : 2007 + A12 : 2016, ….  for EMC part compliance last year.  Currently 
we are reviewing the continual compliance.  It is discovered that both EN 55032 
and EN 55020 disappears in the latest list of EMC harmonized standard list.  In 
RED harmonized standard list, there is a new harmonized standard EN 55035.  Is 
it in need of meeting EN 55035 : 2017 instead of EN 55020 : 2007 to maintain 
the continual compliance of RED?

Thanks and regards,

Scott
-


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David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>>

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Re: [PSES] RED products in EMC compliance part

[Scott Xe]

Hi Charlie,

Understand that the manufacturer is free to choose any conformity
assessment to meet the essential requirements for EMC without using a
Notified Body.  However the manufacturer must have expert in this area to
provide the appropriate advice.  Most of oem manufacturers lack of such
luxury resource and reply on renowned test houses to do it for them.  Can
we use the declaration of conformity from the test lab for selecting the
right test standards for EMC part even those standards are not in RED and
EMC harmonized lists.  Would we receive extra challenges from the market
surveillances due to the fact that we use non harmonized standards.

Thanks and regards,

Scott

On 21 June 2018 at 00:12, Charlie Blackham 
wrote:

> Scott
>
>
>
> EN 55035 is the (only) article 3.1(b) EMC standard that is Harmonised for
> broadcast receivers under the RED.
>
>
>
> As per RED article 17, the manufacturer is free to choose any conformity
> assessment to meet the essential requirements for EMC without using a
> Notified Body, but:
>
>- Your approach to EMC needs to be considered in your Risk Assessment
>(whether or not a Harmonised Standard is applied)
>- Market enforcement and customs would “expect” to see Harmonised
>Standards such as EN 55035:2017 listed on the DoC
>
>
>
> If the DAB radio contains Bluetooth then EN 301 489-1 and -17 would also
> apply, though these won’t be in the OJ until Q4 2017 or Q1 2018
>
>
>
> Regards
>
> Charlie
>
>
>
> *Charlie Blackham*
>
> *Sulis Consultants Ltd*
>
> *Tel: +44 (0)7946 624317*
>
> *Web: **www.sulisconsultants.com*
> 
>
> Registered in England and Wales, number 05466247
>
>
>
> *From:* Scott Xe 
> *Sent:* 20 June 2018 16:05
> *To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> *Subject:* [PSES] RED products in EMC compliance part
>
>
>
> Dear All,
>
>
>
> We have a DAB radio with BT speaker.  It held NB a cert using EN 55032 :
> 2015,  EN 55020 : 2007 + A12 : 2016, ….  for EMC part compliance last
> year.  Currently we are reviewing the continual compliance.  It is
> discovered that both EN 55032 and EN 55020 disappears in the latest list of
> EMC harmonized standard list.  In RED harmonized standard list, there is a
> new harmonized standard EN 55035.  Is it in need of meeting EN 55035 : 2017
> instead of EN 55020 : 2007 to maintain the continual compliance of RED?
>
>
>
> Thanks and regards,
>
>
>
> Scott
>
> -
> 
>
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <
> emc-p...@ieee.org>
>
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
>
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in
> well-used formats), large files, etc.
>
> Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
> Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to
> unsubscribe) 
> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
>
> For help, send mail to the list administrators:
> Scott Douglas 
> Mike Cantwell 
>
> For policy questions, send mail to:
> Jim Bacher 
> David Heald 
>

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Re: [PSES] ESD question

[Douglas Smith]

I also have a copy of those waveforms and a paper Michael King wrote on one of 
my older Macs, can likely find it if needed.
I was lucky to have been mentored by Michael King when I was younger. He is a 
great scientist/engineer and had a great effect on me.

I was fortunate to have four great mentors in my life: my Father, George Florio 
(who got me into this field at age ten and helped me to become an engineer by 
age 14), Henry Ott, and Michael King . I can’t imagine my life without these 
great men.
Maybe others can post about mentors who helped them become engineers.
Doug Smith Sent from my iPhone IPhone: 408-858-4528 Office: 702-570-6108 Email: 
d...@dsmith.org Website: http://dsmith.org
On Wed, Jun 20, 2018 at 8:52, John Woodgate  wrote:
It's probably not ethnicity directly, but skin resistance. This varies greatly 
between people. Long years ago, when we had touch-contact channel change on 
TVs, we had to doubl e the sensitiv ity so that one particular person in the 
lab could work it. When we took sets to a show, someone tur ned up who couldn't 
work it. We found it necessary to double the sensitivity again. If you think 
about a person standing in the ESD field as a large (poorly-) conducting body, 
you can see why the effect can occur.


John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk [http://www.woodjohn.uk]
Rayleigh, Essex UK

On 2018-06-20 14:06, Jim Hulbert wrote:
Somewhere, I have copies of the discharge waveforms (captured on a scope) from 
human subjects that Michael King recruited during his studies. As I recall, the 
amplitude of the ESD pulses was limited to about 10kV as the subjects started 
to balk.



I believe Michael’s studies also led to the development of the Andy Hish 255 
probe. The waveform from that probe, which was a long wand grasped in the hand, 
was influenced by the human body capacitance of the technician performing the 
tests. There was a situation some years ago in our EMC Lab, where my associate 
and I both consistently passed a product for ESD using the Andy Hish probe, 
which was our corporate standard tester at the time. However, an intern working 
with us consistently failed the product. We did our best to make sure we were 
all following the exact same test technique. The only difference my associate 
and I could think of was that the intern was of a different ethnicity than us. 
We didn’t dare mention that, however.



Jim Hulbert





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Re: [PSES] ESD question

[John Woodgate]

It's probably not ethnicity directly, but skin resistance. This varies 
greatly between people. Long years ago, when we had touch-contact 
channel change on TVs, we had to double the sensitivity so that one 
particular person in the lab could work it. When we took sets to a show, 
someone turned up who couldn't work it.  We found it necessary to double 
the sensitivity again.  If you think about a person standing in the ESD 
field asa large (poorly-) conducting body, you can see why the effect 
can occur.


John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk
Rayleigh, Essex UK

On 2018-06-20 14:06, Jim Hulbert wrote:


Somewhere, I have copies of the discharge waveforms (captured on a 
scope) from human subjects that Michael King recruited during his 
studies.  As I recall, the amplitude of the ESD pulses was limited to 
about 10kV as the subjects started to balk.


I believe Michael’s studies also led to the development of the Andy 
Hish 255 probe.  The waveform from that probe, which was a long wand 
grasped in the hand, was influenced by the human body capacitance of 
the technician performing the tests.   There was a situation some 
years ago in our EMC Lab, where my associate and I both consistently 
passed a product for ESD using the Andy Hish probe, which was our 
corporate standard tester at the time.  However, an intern working 
with us consistently failed the product.  We did our best to make sure 
we were all following the exact same test technique.   The only 
difference my associate and I could think of was that the intern was 
of a different ethnicity than us.  We didn’t dare mention that, however.


*Jim Hulbert*





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[PSES] RED products in EMC compliance part

[Scott Xe]

Dear All,

We have a DAB radio with BT speaker.  It held NB a cert using EN 55032 :
2015,  EN 55020 : 2007 + A12 : 2016, ….  for EMC part compliance last
year.  Currently we are reviewing the continual compliance.  It is
discovered that both EN 55032 and EN 55020 disappears in the latest list of
EMC harmonized standard list.  In RED harmonized standard list, there is a
new harmonized standard EN 55035.  Is it in need of meeting EN 55035 : 2017
instead of EN 55020 : 2007 to maintain the continual compliance of RED?

Thanks and regards,

Scott

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Re: [PSES] UL Listing of Computer Keyboard

[James Pawson (U3C)]

 

Again many thanks to everyone who has replied, I’ve found the responses very 
useful.

All the best

James

 

 

 

From: Ted Eckert <07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org> 
Sent: 19 June 2018 16:07
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] UL Listing of Computer Keyboard

 

NRTL approval is not a legal requirement to sell a product in the United 
States. There is no national legal requirement for many types of consumer 
products. Many jurisdictions have adopted NFPA 70, the National Electrical 
Code, which requires products either to be Listed by an NRTL or to be approved 
by the local inspector. This creates a de facto NRTL requirement for most 
permanently connected products. Inspections typically only occur during 
construction or renovation. 

 

NRTL approval is expected for line-voltage products. Many large retailers won’t 
carry products unless they have NRTL approval. However, there are plenty of 
on-line and physical stores that don’t have NRTL requirements for the products 
they sell.

 

OSHA under the Department of Labor sets requirements for the workplace and OSHA 
does mandate NRTL approvals. OSHA actually manages the NRTL program as noted by 
one of the earlier commenters. 

 

The standard for a keyboard depends on how it is used. I had a colleague that 
worked on 60601 approval for a keyboard used in medical applications. For the 
office, it would be UL 60950-1 or UL 62368-1, with the former standard being 
withdrawn in late 2020 if I recall correctly. The application in the U.S. is 
different than in Europe. Products certified to UL 60950-1 can continue to 
carry the certification mark after the date of withdrawal of the standard. 
Another date may be set further in the future when UL 60950-1 products would 
then need to be recertified to UL 62368-1. 

 

Keyboards that are USB powered or use alkaline batteries technically fall under 
the OSHA requirements, but are generally considered low enough power that it is 
extremely unlikely that an inspector would require them to be NRTL approved. 

 

If a keyboard is included in the retail package with an NRTL Listed computer, 
the NRTL may require the keyboard to be a Listed Accessory. Many NRTLs will 
require all included electrical accessories to be Listed if they are included 
in the same SKU with an NRTL Listed product.

 

Ted Eckert

Microsoft Corporation

The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my 
employer.

 

 

 

From: James Pawson (U3C) mailto:ja...@unit3compliance.co.uk> > 
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2018 1:56 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG  
Subject: Re: [PSES] UL Listing of Computer Keyboard

 

Hi all,

 

Thanks very much for the illuminating replies, it’s a great help. To summarise 
(and to make sure I’ve understood):

 

*   NRTL approval legally required for selling in the USA? No.
*   NRTL / UL approval expected? Highly likely.
*   NRTL approval required for use in the workplace? Yes, not legally 
required but market expectation? Or is it a legal requirement?
*   Standard used: UL 62368-1

 

@Pete Perkins: are you saying when the LVD was recast that they tried to remove 
the lower voltage limit? Presumably this didn’t happen because companies didn’t 
want the extra workload involved with extra testing / assessment?

 

Having looked at EN 62368-1, there’s not a great deal in there that applies to 
a low power device such as a USB powered keyboard so I think it’s fair to say 
that the type approval wouldn’t take a great deal of time / cost.

 

Reading http://www.productapprovals.co.uk/ul-approval.html 

  there appear to be initial and regular factory inspections associated with a 
NRTL listing, with the figure of a few thousand dollars being quoted as a 
typical fee for maintaining an NRTL mark. Does this match people’s experience?

 

If the factory already has NRTL approval for manufacturing another product, 
could one piggyback onto this approval or is it on a per product basis?

 

Thanks again

James

 

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Re: [PSES] ESD question

[John Woodgate]

Hello, Doug. As you know, the 'spherical model' is a classic joke about 
physicists, but only half-joking because they do workas long as you 
don't 'push' the model too far.  Take a human of 80 kg who just floats, 
they seem to have a 'spherical' capacitance of 300 pF (but  I don't 
trust my arithmetic this early in the morning).


John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk
Rayleigh, Essex UK

On 2018-06-20 00:10, Doug Smith wrote:

Hi John and the group,

Actually I was just kidding everyone. But I am going to start telling 
everyone my body is about 24 pF/ns and see what happens. I will keep 
an eye open for the men in the white coats with nets. Actually I have 
been watching for them for some time now. Just completed a run at 100 
F. Will be running in 111+ F on Thursday at the peak of the afternoon. 
Some day I will act my age.


Doug



On Tue, 19 Jun 2018 22:29:44 +0100, John Woodgate wrote:

I think the model should assume a spherical body of the relevant mass, 
which capacitance in the archaic unit 'centimetres' is equal to its 
radius in cm,  and 1 cm = 1.13 pF. With all respect to Doug, I think 
the BCI is about as scientific as BMI, which is at least a pressure 
(kg/metre-squared) of some sort. I'm not sure what pF/ns would represent.


Of course the capacitance of a spherical grandmother of any radius is 
1 nanafarad.


John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associateswww.woodjohn.uk
Rayleigh, Essex UK
On 2018-06-19 22:06, Doug Smith wrote:

Hi Ken and the group,

The model started out in IEC 801-2 which had a 150 Ohm, 150 pF model. 
This eventually became IEC 6000-4-2 at 330 Ohms and 150 pF. Both were 
meant to model a piece of metal in a human hand. Such a discharge is 
an order of magnitude more severe, even for a tiny piece of metal in 
one's hand, than a discharge directly from a human hand if one 
measures the radiated EMI from these events.


The R and C above were the result of many measurements on people. The 
first engineers to describe the IEC 61000-4-2 pulse as it is today, 
with the sharp peak at the start, was Michael King and David Reynolds 
back when dinosaurs roamed the earth in the last century.


There is a semiconductor device handling spec called "Human Body 
Model" using 100 pF and 1500 Ohms. But, for me, there are no good HBM 
simulators on the market as they all have metallic tips. They need a 
tip composed of material that has the same volume and surface 
resistivity as a human finger. There it goes, now no one can patent 
the idea...it is now in the public domain.


Since capacitance goes by surface area, we may need a new capacitance 
value as the population has gained weight. I propose we replace BMI 
(Body Mass Index) with the BCI (Body Capacitance Index) a combination 
of body free space capacitance in pF of a person and the number of 
nanoseconds (at one foot per nanosecond) it takes for light to go from 
head to foot. Like BCI = [body capacitance]/[body length in 
nanoseconds at the speed of light]. For me that might be about 25 
pF/ns. Some of my friends might be about 45 pF/ns.


Wow, two ideas in the same email!

Doug


On Tue, 19 Jun 2018 15:34:57 -0500, Ken Javor wrote:


What with Doug Smith being active in this sort of standard writing 
activity, I doubt it’s simply inertia.


Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261



*From: *John Woodgate 
*Date: *Tue, 19 Jun 2018 21:26:38 +0100
*To: *Ken Javor , 


*Subject: *Re: [PSES] ESD question



Probably handed down on a stone tablet in 1910 and no-one had the 
courage to challenge it yet. (;-)



John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk  


Rayleigh, Essex UK

On 2018-06-19 21:18, Ken Javor wrote:

ESD question Anyone out there know the origins of the 150 pF/330
ohm gun model used in EN61000-4-2 and derivative standards? It
seems it ought to be a human body model, but it isn't.

 Ken Javor
 Phone: (256) 650-5261 -
 


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