Re: [PSES] [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] electric shock from capacitor discharge

[Ted Eckert]

Hi Rich,

I can’t think of many cases of modern IT equipment with a significant risk of 
capacitance discharge through the plug. However, I could foresee motor-driven 
equipment where it could be an issue. The manufacturer might put a power factor 
correction capacitor across the line to compensate for the inductive load of 
the motor. The motor should bleed off the charge of the capacitor, but there 
may still be some residual charge when the user pulls the plug. You probably 
wouldn’t have that large of a capacitor on a plug-connected motor appliance, 
but it is possible.

It’s been more than a decade since I worked with large motor-drive appliances, 
so my memory of their workings isn’t great. I’m sure there is somebody on this 
list server who can correct any error I’ve made in my statements.

Ted Eckert
The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my 
employer.


From: MIKE SHERMAN 
Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2020 5:58 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] electric shock from capacitor discharge

Rich --

Are you including old CRTs as capacitors? I recall that, even with the early 
Macs, you had to be careful to discharge the tube if you were going to mess 
around inside.

Mike
On 09/29/2020 4:27 PM Richard Nute mailto:ri...@ieee.org>> 
wrote:




I am interested in knowing what constructions, situations, and products where a 
capacitive discharge into a body could take place.

I am aware of the X and Y capacitors discharge at the prongs of a power plug.  
I don’t immediately know of other situations or products that might discharge a 
capacitor into a body.

I would appreciate descriptions of such discharges into a body, not conjecture. 
 Preferably, normal conditions and some single-fault conditions.

Do we need to include capacitive discharge requirements in the safety standards?

Stay safe!

Rich

-


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Re: [PSES] electric shock from capacitor discharge

[MIKE SHERMAN]

Rich --

Are you including old CRTs as capacitors? I recall that, even with the early 
Macs, you had to be careful to discharge the tube if you were going to mess 
around inside.

Mike

> On 09/29/2020 4:27 PM Richard Nute  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am interested in knowing what constructions, situations, and products 
> where a capacitive discharge into a body could take place.
> 
> I am aware of the X and Y capacitors discharge at the prongs of a power 
> plug.  I don’t immediately know of other situations or products that might 
> discharge a capacitor into a body. 
> 
> I would appreciate descriptions of such discharges into a body, not 
> conjecture.  Preferably, normal conditions and some single-fault conditions. 
> 
> Do we need to include capacitive discharge requirements in the safety 
> standards?
> 
> Stay safe!
> 
> Rich
> 
> 
> -
> 
> 
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
> mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org >
> 
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
> 
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site 
> at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in 
> well-used formats), large files, etc.
> 
> Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
> Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to 
> unsubscribe) http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html
> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
> 
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> 

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Re: [PSES] electric shock from capacitor discharge

[BANSI PATEL]

Rich:

 

There are incidents where there are capacitors in the equipment, that can have 
hazardous energy.

UL 1778, safety standard for UPS has requirement for protection of safety 
personnel, where there is clause to make sure that makes sure that energy in 
the capacitor is discharged before service personnel has an access to the 
capacitor. 

 

Please be safe

 

Stay Home - Stop the Spread – Save Lives

 

Best Regards

 

Bansi Patel

M: 909-260-9403

bansipate...@gmail.com  

 

From: Richard Nute  
Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2020 3:04 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] electric shock from capacitor discharge

 

 

 

Hi Lauren:

 

Thanks, but I recognize that many standards include such requirements.  I am 
looking for instances (other than the pins of a power plug) where such 
requirements must be invoked. 

 

Stay safe!

Rich

 

 

From: lauren.cr...@us.tel.com   
mailto:lauren.cr...@us.tel.com> > 
Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2020 2:52 PM
To: ri...@ieee.org  
Cc: EMC-PSTC@listserv.ieee.org  
Subject: Re: [PSES] electric shock from capacitor discharge

 

Hi Rich, 

 

Discharge requirements are already in some electrical safety standards. Not at 
my desk so recall is poor, but likely 61010 or even NFPA 79 have something 
about caps with stored energy above x joules have to discharge within N seconds 
of power off...

 

Cheers,

-Lauren

Sent from my mobile phone - please excuse typos, brevity, etc.

 

On Sep 29, 2020, at 4:27 PM, Richard Nute mailto:ri...@ieee.org> > wrote:

 

I am interested in knowing what constructions, situations, and products where a 
capacitive discharge into a body could take place.

I am aware of the X and Y capacitors discharge at the prongs of a power plug.  
I don’t immediately know of other situations or products that might discharge a 
capacitor into a body.  

I would appreciate descriptions of such discharges into a body, not conjecture. 
 Preferably, normal conditions and some single-fault conditions.  

Do we need to include capacitive discharge requirements in the safety standards?

Stay safe!

Rich

 

-


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David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com> > 


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Re: [PSES] electric shock from capacitor discharge

[Richard Nute]

 

 

Hi Lauren:

 

Thanks, but I recognize that many standards include such requirements.  I am 
looking for instances (other than the pins of a power plug) where such 
requirements must be invoked. 

 

Stay safe!

Rich

 

From: lauren.cr...@us.tel.com  
Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2020 2:52 PM
To: ri...@ieee.org
Cc: EMC-PSTC@listserv.ieee.org
Subject: Re: [PSES] electric shock from capacitor discharge

 

Hi Rich, 

 

Discharge requirements are already in some electrical safety standards. Not at 
my desk so recall is poor, but likely 61010 or even NFPA 79 have something 
about caps with stored energy above x joules have to discharge within N seconds 
of power off...

 

Cheers,

-Lauren

Sent from my mobile phone - please excuse typos, brevity, etc.





On Sep 29, 2020, at 4:27 PM, Richard Nute mailto:ri...@ieee.org> > wrote:

 

I am interested in knowing what constructions, situations, and products where a 
capacitive discharge into a body could take place.

I am aware of the X and Y capacitors discharge at the prongs of a power plug.  
I don’t immediately know of other situations or products that might discharge a 
capacitor into a body.  

I would appreciate descriptions of such discharges into a body, not conjecture. 
 Preferably, normal conditions and some single-fault conditions.  

Do we need to include capacitive discharge requirements in the safety standards?

Stay safe!

Rich






-

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Re: [PSES] Low Voltage Products and EN 62368-1 and -3

[Richard Nute]

 

 

Hi Scott:

 

Certification is not a function of the safety standard; it is a function of the 
certification house.  Most certification houses would be happy to certify a 
low-voltage product.  

 

Keep in mind that the various safety standards also address matters other than 
electric shock.  62368-1 has separate clauses that address heat, fire, 
stability, etc., so these other matters are clearly visible.  If your EPS is 
rated for 4 amps at 12 volts, you have 48 watts available under normal 
conditions and probably 100 watts under fault conditions.  Under 62368-1, the 
ITE would (should!) be evaluated for both fire and hot accessible parts.  

 

Required by 62368-1?  No.  But, a good idea; it’s easy, relatively fast, 
relatively cheap, and keeps the questions from being asked.

 

Stay safe!

Rich

 

 

From: Scott Douglas  
Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2020 1:52 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Low Voltage Products and EN 62368-1 and -3

 

Esteemed colleagues,

 

Question on EN 62368-1 and -3 related to low voltage products.

 

Products are ITE equipment with power requirement of 5v or 12v DC and less than 
4 amps, sometimes they are powered by PoE. We ship some of these products with 
an external power supply 120/230 V~ input and 5 or 12 VDC output. The EPS 
always have full certifications to normal safety standards including 62368-1. 
Other times we do not include an EPS with the product.

 

One of our factories is trying to tell us that under IEC/EN 62368-1 or -3, our 
products are required to have safety certifications, that having just the EPS 
certified to 62368-1 is not enough.

 

We have always said that since these are low voltage products (even the PoE 
ones) that safety certifications are not required for the products themselves.

 

Has something changed where these type products are now required to have safety 
approvals for the EU or US/Canada markets? Or since they are not directly 
connected to the AC Mains, they do not need safety approvals?

 

Looking for someone to either confirm my sanity or teach me a new lesson. All 
comments welcome.

 

Scott

 


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Re: [PSES] electric shock from capacitor discharge

[lauren . crane]

Hi Rich,

Discharge requirements are already in some electrical safety standards. Not at 
my desk so recall is poor, but likely 61010 or even NFPA 79 have something 
about caps with stored energy above x joules have to discharge within N seconds 
of power off...

Cheers,
-Lauren

Sent from my mobile phone - please excuse typos, brevity, etc.

On Sep 29, 2020, at 4:27 PM, Richard Nute  wrote:



I am interested in knowing what constructions, situations, and products where a 
capacitive discharge into a body could take place.

I am aware of the X and Y capacitors discharge at the prongs of a power plug.  
I don’t immediately know of other situations or products that might discharge a 
capacitor into a body.

I would appreciate descriptions of such discharges into a body, not conjecture. 
 Preferably, normal conditions and some single-fault conditions.

Do we need to include capacitive discharge requirements in the safety standards?

Stay safe!

Rich

-


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discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>>

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[PSES] electric shock from capacitor discharge

[Richard Nute]

I am interested in knowing what constructions, situations, and products
where a capacitive discharge into a body could take place.

I am aware of the X and Y capacitors discharge at the prongs of a power
plug.  I don't immediately know of other situations or products that might
discharge a capacitor into a body.  

I would appreciate descriptions of such discharges into a body, not
conjecture.  Preferably, normal conditions and some single-fault conditions.


Do we need to include capacitive discharge requirements in the safety
standards?

Stay safe!
Rich



-

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[PSES] Low Voltage Products and EN 62368-1 and -3

[Scott Douglas]

Esteemed colleagues,

Question on EN 62368-1 and -3 related to low voltage products.

Products are ITE equipment with power requirement of 5v or 12v DC and less
than 4 amps, sometimes they are powered by PoE. We ship some of these
products with an external power supply 120/230 V~ input and 5 or 12 VDC
output. The EPS always have full certifications to normal safety standards
including 62368-1. Other times we do not include an EPS with the product.

One of our factories is trying to tell us that under IEC/EN 62368-1 or -3,
our products are required to have safety certifications, that having just
the EPS certified to 62368-1 is not enough.

We have always said that since these are low voltage products (even the PoE
ones) that safety certifications are not required for the
products themselves.

Has something changed where these type products are now required to have
safety approvals for the EU or US/Canada markets? Or since they are not
directly connected to the AC Mains, they do not need safety approvals?

Looking for someone to either confirm my sanity or teach me a new lesson.
All comments welcome.

Scott

-

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Re: [PSES] Safety and Energy Certification Job Opening

[Ted Eckert]

Hello all,

I have an additional open position for a Product Safety Engineer. The original 
position I posted is for somebody familiar with A/V-ITE safety standards and 
the certification process and applications are still being accepted. This 
additional position focuses more on hazard analysis and risk assessment.

https://careers.microsoft.com/us/en/job/907286/Product-Safety-Engineer
https://www.linkedin.com/jobs/view/2150971107/

Best regards,
Ted Eckert
Microsoft

From: Ted Eckert <07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org>
Sent: Friday, September 11, 2020 4:43 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [EXTERNAL] [PSES] Safety and Energy Certification Job Opening

Hello all,

Microsoft has a new open position for a Safety and Energy Certification 
engineer.
https://careers.microsoft.com/us/en/job/897312/Safety-Energy-Compliance-Engineer
https://www.linkedin.com/jobs/view/2011579672/

This person will have the opportunity to work on all Microsoft consumer product 
lines including Surface, Xbox and HoloLens. Please see the job postings for 
details on the responsibilities.

Best regards,
Ted Eckert
Microsoft

-


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Re: [PSES] AW: [PSES] ErP Directive requiring CE Marking

[Scott Xe]

Dear Bernd,



Many thanks for your clear pointer!  I looked into the delegated
regulations incorrectly.



Best regards,



Scott



On Tue, 29 Sep 2020 at 14:24, Dürrer Bernd  wrote:

> Hi Scott,
>
> Article 5 of ErP Directive 2009/125/EC requires CE marking (
> https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:32009L0125=EN#d1e903-10-1
> ).
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Bernd
> --
> *Von:* Scott Xe 
> *Gesendet:* Dienstag, 29. September 2020 07:53
> *An:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG 
> *Betreff:* [PSES] ErP Directive requiring CE Marking
>
> I have learnt that ErP Directive requires CE Marking as compliance with
> the Directive.  I could not find this requirement in the Directive like
> others such as LVD, EMC, etc.  Can someone advise if I got incorrect info
> or where to document this requirement.
>
> Thanks and regards,
>
> Scott
>
>
> -
> 
>
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <
> emc-p...@ieee.org>
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> 
>
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> 
> can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc.
>
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> 
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> 
>
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>
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>
> [image: Fabrikam]
> --
>
> WILO SE
> Wilopark 1, 44263 Dortmund
> Amtsgericht Dortmund, HRB 21356
> www.wilo.com
>
> Vorstand/Executive Board:
> Oliver Hermes (President & CEO), Dr. Patrick Niehr, Georg Weber, Mathias
> Weyers
> Aufsichtsratsvorsitzender/Chairman of the Supervisory Board:
> Prof. Dr. Norbert Wieselhuber
>
> Dieses Dokument ist vertraulich zu behandeln. Die Weitergabe sowie
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[PSES] AW: [PSES] ErP Directive requiring CE Marking

[Dürrer Bernd]

Hi Scott,

Article 5 of ErP Directive 2009/125/EC requires CE marking 
(https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:32009L0125=EN#d1e903-10-1).

Kind regards,

Bernd

Von: Scott Xe 
Gesendet: Dienstag, 29. September 2020 07:53
An: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG 
Betreff: [PSES] ErP Directive requiring CE Marking

I have learnt that ErP Directive requires CE Marking as compliance with the 
Directive.  I could not find this requirement in the Directive like others such 
as LVD, EMC, etc.  Can someone advise if I got incorrect info or where to 
document this requirement.

Thanks and regards,

Scott


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