Re: [PSES] IEC 62368-1: To understand chapter 5.4.11

[Bill Owsley]

 I have been watching this subject for a while.
i vaguely recall that in some front matter in some standards is a statement 
that indicates that this is the minimum requirements to go to market.
 So in the interests of the Corp/s that I worked for at the time, and any 
quality targets, that they may have, or not, regardless of their awareness of 
such targets...
I often figured out tests that were needed/useful ... but maybe not required in 
the strict minimum requirements.
And reported the results.  
And fixes to meet those "not strictly required" minimum standards.
And did this early in the development process, thus EMC First,
First off product could ship !!!
And then I/they could spend time and money on cost reducing at our leisure.
Cuz product was shipping and bringing in revenue.
On time, or even early before plans.






 

On Thursday, May 9, 2024, 7:44:05 AM EDT, James Pawson (U3C) 
 wrote:  
 
 
Hi Piotr,

  

Just to add to the debate:

  

“I know that if circuit is not going out of building it is considered being 
without transients”

  

If a cable is longer than 30m then most product EMC standards will call up a 
requirement for line-to-earth surge testing. Some do make it explicit that this 
should be only for cables leaving a building or site, some do not…

  

All the best

James

  

James Pawson

Managing Director & EMC Problem Solver

  

Unit 3 Compliance Ltd

EMC : Environmental & Vibration : Electrical Safety : CE & UKCA : Consultancy

  

www.unit3compliance.co.uk | ja...@unit3compliance.co.uk 

+44(0)1274 911747  |  +44(0)7811 139957

2 Wellington Business Park, New Lane, Bradford, BD4 8AL

Registered in England and Wales # 10574298

  

Office hours:

Every morning my full attention is on consultancy, testing, and troubleshooting 
activities for our customers’ projects. I’m available/contactable between 1300h 
to 1730h Mon/Tue/Thurs/Fri.

For inquiries, bookings, and testing updates please send us an email on 
he...@unit3compliance.co.uk or call 01274 911747. Our lead times for testing 
and consultancy are typically 4-5 weeks.

  

  

  

  

From: Piotr Galka  
Sent: Wednesday, May 8, 2024 9:28 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] IEC 62368-1: To understand chapter 5.4.11

  

Hi Bostjan,

I know that if circuit is not going out of building it is considered being 
without transients. My doubt is mainly because in 5.4.11 says about circuits 
being external and indicated in table 14 and according to my understanding 
3.3.1.1 USB was external and note about transients in table 14 for me didn't 
make for me USB being not indicated in table.
In my RS485 design even it is in one building I assume during storm up to 50V 
temporary difference between several grounding points and I use 2 steps 
protection. I know of two such incidents that after lightning struck directly 
into the building, many systems stopped working, but ours did.
I acknowledge that USB is not external circuit.
Thanks a lot.

I have never bought any standard abroad and as I have written answering to 
Johns post I see that 62368-2 is not in current Polish Standard Committee offer.

Best regards
Piotr Galka



W dniu 2024-05-08 o 18:45, Boštjan Glavič pisze:


Hi Piotr

  

If circuit does not go out of building it is not considered as circuit with 
transients. I think you should check other standard like IEC 62151 and IEC 
62102 which clasify external circuits.

  

>From my experiences, and I do have quite some, USB is not considered as 
>external circuit in the sense of clause, where requirements between external 
>circuit and PE are specified.

  

Did you also check 62368-2?

  

Best regards 

Bostjan

  

  

  

  

  

Poslano iz Outlook za Android

  

Od: Piotr Galka 
Poslano: sreda, maj 8, 2024 5:21:33 PM
Za: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG 
Zadeva: Re: [PSES] IEC 62368-1: To understand chapter 5.4.11





Hi Bostjan,

Thanks for your feedback, but...

I am slowly and carefully reading 62368-1 for the first time.
It defines 'external circuit' in 3.3.1.1 as "electrical circuit that is 
external to the equipment and is not mains".
I assumed one device = one equipment so I thought laptop is an 
equipment. After your post I checked how equipment is defined in 62368-1 
but in 3.3 there is no equipment definition so I don't know what is 
equipment.
May be USB device (pendrive) connected without cable to laptop can be 
assumed being its part, or even device powered by USB (mouse, keyboard) 
can be assumed being its part, but USB can be used to connect other 
equipment, I think. Do laser printer being powered separately from mains 
connected to laptop is understood as being internal part of equipment? 
Laptop is probably manufactured by someone else than laser printer. They 
can't assume they manufacture single equipment, I think.
In past I have read about USB being used to connect active wifi antenna 
located on the roof (with few hubs to extend connection length). Having 
all that in mind it is 

Re: [PSES] IEC 62368-1: To understand chapter 5.4.11

[Piotr Galka]

Hi James,

Thank you for drawing attention to this but my sentence was in context 
of 62368-1 only.


When in 2004 (few days after we joined EU) I went with my devices for 
the first time to EMC lab (it was an internal company laboratory that 
also offered external services) they didn't had a capacitors needed in 
surge testing transmission lines. So we tested them using only 40 ohm 
resistor. Since then I design my not isolated RS485 to withstand 25A 
50us current pulse (Surge generator loaded with 40ohm gives current 
pulse of a shape rather like its voltage pulse then its current pulse).
As I have encountered EMC problems in 90s (devices with RS485 having 
only ICs ESD protection routed between buildings standing on the top of 
hill were hanging after every storm) I was well prepared in 2004 and 
they were surprised that all my devices passed all the tests for the 
first time.


Regards
Piotr

W dniu 2024-05-09 o 13:43, James Pawson (U3C) pisze:


Hi Piotr,

Just to add to the debate:

“I know that if circuit is not going out of building it is considered 
being without transients”


If a cable is longer than 30m then most product EMC standards will 
call up a requirement for line-to-earth surge testing. Some do make it 
explicit that this should be only for cables leaving a building or 
site, some do not…


All the best

James

James Pawson

Managing Director & EMC Problem Solver

*Unit 3 Compliance Ltd*

*EMC : Environmental & Vibration : Electrical Safety : CE & UKCA : 
Consultancy*


www.unit3compliance.co.uk  | 
ja...@unit3compliance.co.uk 


+44(0)1274 911747  |  +44(0)7811 139957

2 Wellington Business Park, New Lane, Bradford, BD4 8AL

Registered in England and Wales # 10574298

/Office hours:/

/Every morning my full attention is on consultancy, testing, and 
troubleshooting activities for our customers’ projects. I’m 
available/contactable between 1300h to 1730h Mon/Tue/Thurs/Fri./


/For inquiries, bookings, and testing updates please send us an email 
on he...@unit3compliance.co.uk or call 01274 911747. Our lead times 
for testing and consultancy are typically 4-5 weeks./


*From:*Piotr Galka 
*Sent:* Wednesday, May 8, 2024 9:28 PM
*To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
*Subject:* Re: [PSES] IEC 62368-1: To understand chapter 5.4.11

Hi Bostjan,

I know that if circuit is not going out of building it is considered 
being without transients. My doubt is mainly because in 5.4.11 says 
about circuits being external and indicated in table 14 and according 
to my understanding 3.3.1.1 USB was external and note about transients 
in table 14 for me didn't make for me USB being not indicated in table.
In my RS485 design even it is in one building I assume during storm up 
to 50V temporary difference between several grounding points and I use 
2 steps protection. I know of two such incidents that after lightning 
struck directly into the building, many systems stopped working, but 
ours did.

I acknowledge that USB is not external circuit.
Thanks a lot.

I have never bought any standard abroad and as I have written 
answering to Johns post I see that 62368-2 is not in current Polish 
Standard Committee offer.


Best regards
Piotr Galka

W dniu 2024-05-08 o 18:45, Boštjan Glavič pisze:

Hi Piotr

If circuit does not go out of building it is not considered as
circuit with transients. I think you should check other standard
like IEC 62151 and IEC 62102 which clasify external circuits.

From my experiences, and I do have quite some, USB is not
considered as external circuit in the sense of clause, where
requirements between external circuit and PE are specified.

Did you also check 62368-2?

Best regards

Bostjan

Poslano iz Outlook za Android 



*Od:*Piotr Galka 

*Poslano:* sreda, maj 8, 2024 5:21:33 PM
*Za:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG 

*Zadeva:* Re: [PSES] IEC 62368-1: To understand chapter 5.4.11



Hi Bostjan,

Thanks for your feedback, but...

I am slowly and carefully reading 62368-1 for the first time.
It defines 'external circuit' in 3.3.1.1 as "electrical circuit
that is
external to the equipment and is not mains".
I assumed one device = one equipment so I thought laptop is an
equipment. After your post I checked how equipment is defined in
62368-1
but in 3.3 there is no equipment definition so I don't know what is
equipment.
May be USB device (pendrive) connected without cable to laptop can be
assumed being its part, or even device powered by USB (mouse,
keyboard)
can be assumed being its part, but USB can be used to connect other
equipment, I think. Do laser printer being powered separately from
mains
connected to laptop is 

Re: [PSES] IEC 62368-1: To understand chapter 5.4.11

[James Pawson (U3C)]

Hi Piotr,

 

Just to add to the debate:

 

“I know that if circuit is not going out of building it is considered being 
without transients”

 

If a cable is longer than 30m then most product EMC standards will call up a 
requirement for line-to-earth surge testing. Some do make it explicit that this 
should be only for cables leaving a building or site, some do not…

 

All the best

James

 

James Pawson

Managing Director & EMC Problem Solver

 

Unit 3 Compliance Ltd

EMC : Environmental & Vibration : Electrical Safety : CE & UKCA : Consultancy

 

  www.unit3compliance.co.uk |  
 ja...@unit3compliance.co.uk 

+44(0)1274 911747  |  +44(0)7811 139957

2 Wellington Business Park, New Lane, Bradford, BD4 8AL

Registered in England and Wales # 10574298

 

Office hours:

Every morning my full attention is on consultancy, testing, and troubleshooting 
activities for our customers’ projects. I’m available/contactable between 1300h 
to 1730h Mon/Tue/Thurs/Fri.

For inquiries, bookings, and testing updates please send us an email on 
he...@unit3compliance.co.uk   or call 01274 
911747. Our lead times for testing and consultancy are typically 4-5 weeks.

 

 

 

 

From: Piotr Galka  
Sent: Wednesday, May 8, 2024 9:28 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] IEC 62368-1: To understand chapter 5.4.11

 

Hi Bostjan,

I know that if circuit is not going out of building it is considered being 
without transients. My doubt is mainly because in 5.4.11 says about circuits 
being external and indicated in table 14 and according to my understanding 
3.3.1.1 USB was external and note about transients in table 14 for me didn't 
make for me USB being not indicated in table.
In my RS485 design even it is in one building I assume during storm up to 50V 
temporary difference between several grounding points and I use 2 steps 
protection. I know of two such incidents that after lightning struck directly 
into the building, many systems stopped working, but ours did.
I acknowledge that USB is not external circuit.
Thanks a lot.

I have never bought any standard abroad and as I have written answering to 
Johns post I see that 62368-2 is not in current Polish Standard Committee offer.

Best regards
Piotr Galka



W dniu 2024-05-08 o 18:45, Boštjan Glavič pisze:

Hi Piotr

 

If circuit does not go out of building it is not considered as circuit with 
transients. I think you should check other standard like IEC 62151 and IEC 
62102 which clasify external circuits.

 

>From my experiences, and I do have quite some, USB is not considered as 
>external circuit in the sense of clause, where requirements between external 
>circuit and PE are specified.

 

Did you also check 62368-2?

 

Best regards 

Bostjan

 

 

 

 

 

Poslano iz Outlook za Android  

 

  _  

Od: Piotr Galka   
Poslano: sreda, maj 8, 2024 5:21:33 PM
Za: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG    
 
Zadeva: Re: [PSES] IEC 62368-1: To understand chapter 5.4.11





Hi Bostjan,

Thanks for your feedback, but...

I am slowly and carefully reading 62368-1 for the first time.
It defines 'external circuit' in 3.3.1.1 as "electrical circuit that is 
external to the equipment and is not mains".
I assumed one device = one equipment so I thought laptop is an 
equipment. After your post I checked how equipment is defined in 62368-1 
but in 3.3 there is no equipment definition so I don't know what is 
equipment.
May be USB device (pendrive) connected without cable to laptop can be 
assumed being its part, or even device powered by USB (mouse, keyboard) 
can be assumed being its part, but USB can be used to connect other 
equipment, I think. Do laser printer being powered separately from mains 
connected to laptop is understood as being internal part of equipment? 
Laptop is probably manufactured by someone else than laser printer. They 
can't assume they manufacture single equipment, I think.
In past I have read about USB being used to connect active wifi antenna 
located on the roof (with few hubs to extend connection length). Having 
all that in mind it is hard for me to accept that for 62368-1 USB is 
equipment internal circuit.

Now.
If we assume laptop with connected to it mouse, external keyboard and 
printer is one equipment then going to my field: do the access control 
controller with RFID readers connected to it by RS485 is also one 
equipment (all powered from one 12V supply, and located in one building) 
making RS485 connection being internal equipment circuit?
I don't think so.

And I repeat my main question regarding 5.4.11: Do the access controller 
permanently connected to 12V supply that is permanently connected to 
mains is permanently connected equipment? I think yes. Even 12V supply 
has isolation in it.
If I 

Re: [PSES] IEC 62368-1: To understand chapter 5.4.11

[Piotr Galka]

Hi Ralph and John,

62368-1 I have bought from PKN is in form "first and last page Polish 
and everything inside English".
I suppose they with pleasure will charge me for 62368-2 if I ask them 
for it. The only question is how much time is needed to prepare these 2 
pages.
As I remember from times when I was writing here from time to time - we 
came to conclusion that PKN prices were clearly lower then in other sources.


What I am surprised the most: Do really I (a guy from a company with 4 
employees) am the first one in Poland being interested in 62368-2 :)


Best Regards
Piotr Galka



W dniu 2024-05-08 o 23:07, Ralph McDiarmid pisze:

Signature

The IEC store has IEC TR 62368-2:2019 RLV for 553 Swiss Francs.   Ouch.

*From:*John Woodgate 
*Sent:* Wednesday, May 8, 2024 1:37 PM
*To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
*Subject:* Re: [PSES] IEC 62368-1: To understand chapter 5.4.11

You can get 62368-2 from: https://www.evs.ee/en/iec-tr-62368-2-2019, 
but it is rather costly.


On 2024-05-08 21:00, Piotr Galka wrote:

After reading your post my decision was to buy 62368-2 but I've
just checked that in PKN (Polish Standards Committee) I can buy
62368-1 what I have done long ago but they don't have 62368-2 :( .

--
OOO - Own Opinions Only
Best wishes
John Woodgate, Rayleigh, Essex UK
Keep trying





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