Re: [PSES] IEC 62368-1: To understand chapter 5.4.11

[Glyn Payne]

Hi Piotr,

Maximum USB cable lengths are quite short, a few meters, and they are not 
designed to be part of the ‘building or structure’, hence transients are not 
considered for these ports. If a USB extender or hub is used to extend the USB 
and this is wired through the building or structure then transients would be 
the problem of the hub manufacturer and not your product.

There was/is IEC 62368-3: Safety aspects for DC power transfer through 
communication cables and ports, which is referenced by IEC 62368-1 however this 
being reworked by TC108 and as far as I can tell few people are using it in 
it’s present form.
When testing your product under 62368-1 the test house will determine the 
maximum voltage and current the USB (or serial) port can provide, under normal, 
abnormal and fault conditions, to ensure that there is no hazard.

Best regards,
Glyn Payne

From: Piotr Galka 
Sent: Wednesday, May 8, 2024 9:28 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] IEC 62368-1: To understand chapter 5.4.11

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Hi Bostjan,

I know that if circuit is not going out of building it is considered being 
without transients. My doubt is mainly because in 5.4.11 says about circuits 
being external and indicated in table 14 and according to my understanding 
3.3.1.1 USB was external and note about transients in table 14 for me didn't 
make for me USB being not indicated in table.
In my RS485 design even it is in one building I assume during storm up to 50V 
temporary difference between several grounding points and I use 2 steps 
protection. I know of two such incidents that after lightning struck directly 
into the building, many systems stopped working, but ours did.
I acknowledge that USB is not external circuit.
Thanks a lot.

I have never bought any standard abroad and as I have written answering to 
Johns post I see that 62368-2 is not in current Polish Standard Committee offer.

Best regards
Piotr Galka

W dniu 2024-05-08 o 18:45, Boštjan Glavič pisze:
Hi Piotr

If circuit does not go out of building it is not considered as circuit with 
transients. I think you should check other standard like IEC 62151 and IEC 
62102 which clasify external circuits.

From my experiences, and I do have quite some, USB is not considered as 
external circuit in the sense of clause, where requirements between external 
circuit and PE are specified.

Did you also check 62368-2?

Best regards
Bostjan





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Od: Piotr Galka <mailto:piotr.ga...@micromade.pl>
Poslano: sreda, maj 8, 2024 5:21:33 PM
Za: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> 
<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Zadeva: Re: [PSES] IEC 62368-1: To understand chapter 5.4.11


Hi Bostjan,

Thanks for your feedback, but...

I am slowly and carefully reading 62368-1 for the first time.
It defines 'external circuit' in 3.3.1.1 as "electrical circuit that is
external to the equipment and is not mains".
I assumed one device = one equipment so I thought laptop is an
equipment. After your post I checked how equipment is defined in 62368-1
but in 3.3 there is no equipment definition so I don't know what is
equipment.
May be USB device (pendrive) connected without cable to laptop can be
assumed being its part, or even device powered by USB (mouse, keyboard)
can be assumed being its part, but USB can be used to connect other
equipment, I think. Do laser printer being powered separately from mains
connected to laptop is understood as being internal part of equipment?
Laptop is probably manufactured by someone else than laser printer. They
can't assume they manufacture single equipment, I think.
In past I have read about USB being used to connect active wifi antenna
located on the roof (with few hubs to extend connection length). Having
all that in mind it is hard for me to accept that for 62368-1 USB is
equipment internal circuit.

Now.
If we assume laptop with connected to it mouse, external keyboard and
printer is one equipment then going to my field: do the access control
controller with RFID readers connected to it by RS485 is also one
equipment (all powered from one 12V supply, and located in one building)
making RS485 connection being internal equipment circuit?
I don't think so.

And I repeat my main question regarding 5.4.11: Do the access controller
permanently connected to 12V supply that is permanently connected to
mains is permanently connected equipment? I think yes. Even 12V supply
has isolation in it.
If I change understanding of equipment and assume that controller + 12V
supply are one equipment than thinks get easier - such understood
equipment is permanently connected. But is it one equipment if
controller is manufactured by someone other then

Re: [PSES] [EXTERNAL] [PSES] General Product Safety Directive (GPSD)

[Glyn Payne]

There is always the RoHS Directive that demands the CE Mark even if no other 
Directives apply.

Glyn Payne

From: John Woodgate 
Sent: 01 November 2023 20:20
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] [EXTERNAL] [PSES] General Product Safety Directive (GPSD)


Somewhere in all the Byzantine rules, there is a ban on applying the CE mark if 
no Directive or Regulation that demands it applies to the product.
On 2023-11-01 19:58, Ralph McDiarmid wrote:
Furthermore, I have not found anything document which says that you cannot CE 
mark a product having a DofC listing the GPSR.  The proviso that you can issue 
a DofC against Directive 2001/95/EC but cannot CE mark the product is not 
stated anywhere in the official website of the EU (Europa.eu) or in the GPSD.  
Perhaps it’s just well hidden.


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Re: [PSES] Selling into the country Georgia

[Glyn Payne]

Hi Cecil,

Georgia isn’t in the EAC but their standards and processes are aligned with the 
EU, with a current aim to ultimately join the EU.

In the LAW OF GEORGIA PRODUCT SAFETY AND FREE MOVEMENT CODE it says…

Article 94 – Product marking
1. Product marking shall be the declaration by a responsible person that: a) 
the product conforms to the new approach technical regulations and poses no 
threat to human life, health and/or property; b) the product has undergone the 
conformity assessment procedures.
2. A mark must be clearly affixed on a product, be easily readable, and must 
not be easily erasable on the product or on the part containing the data about 
it. If this is not possible, the mark must be affixed to the product packaging 
as well as the accompanying documents, if so required under the technical 
regulations. 3. A product manufactured in Georgia for the Georgian market, 
which is regulated by the new approach technical regulations, must be 
manufactured according to these regulations. GE mark shall be affixed on such 
products.
4. Product marking rules and the form of a mark shall be established by an 
ordinance of the Government of Georgia.
5. Products with a CE mark, which certifies conformity with the requirements 
effective in the EU, shall be allowed in Georgia without additional conformity 
assessment procedures.


Best regards,

Glyn

From: cgitt...@rochester.rr.com 
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2023 2:58 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Selling into the country Georgia


One of my client's was going to sell into the country Georgia and was told they 
needed an EAC mark on the product.  The product currently has the CE mark.

Did a search online and it appears that the country of Georgia accepts CE 
marking.

I appreciate any help you can provide.

Thanks!

Cecil
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