Re: Accreditation - testing ourselves
Yes , sorry I meant that the accreditation body were unhappy with anyone except the staff at the test lab using the test equipment regardless if it was for pre compliance or compliance testing. Saying this, I am aware of accredited commercial labs who do let customers use the test equipment without an engineer supervising them. Unfortunately this does not help your situation regards Darren - Original Message - From: To: Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 10:58 AM Subject: SV: Accreditation - testing ourselves > > 100% agree, Darren. > > My point was that the test lab would not let us carry out some pre-testing > ourselves (checking out different EMI efforts). When feeling comfortable, of > course only qualified lab staff should do the accredited test. > > When a test lab do not let a good customer run some pre-compliance test on > his own, it must be: > 1. Not allowed according to the laboratory own QA manual > 2. Customers not qualified to run the test equipment > 3. Insurance, etc. > 4. Do not want to offer this type of service > 5. Lab want to employ own staff for pre-compliance testing > > > Best regards > Amund > > > -Opprinnelig melding- > Fra: Darren Pearson [mailto:dar...@genesysibs.com] > Sendt: 28. mai 2002 10:18 > Til: am...@westin-emission.no; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org > Emne: Re: Accreditation - testing ourselves > > > I believe the accreditation here in the UK, (UKAS) does say the same thing. > > That only trained responsible staff of the test laboratory may operate the > test equipment, if non employees use the equipment the test lab may loose > the accreditation. > > regards > Darren Pearson > ----- Original Message - > From: > To: > Sent: Monday, May 27, 2002 1:44 PM > Subject: SV: Accreditation - testing ourselves > > > > > > Hi Dave > > > > > > >However, if they had not made provisions in their QA manual for use by > non > > lab personnel they would be in > > >violation of there own procedures and subject to audit findings by the > lab > > accrediting body. > > > > Agree > > > > > > >They may be hiding behind the accreditation as a graceful way of stopping > a > > practice they no longer want to be involved in. > > > > Good point. Agree a lot! > > > > Best regards > > Amund Westin, Oslo/Norway > > > > -Opprinnelig melding- > > Fra: Clement Dave-LDC009 [mailto:dave.clem...@motorola.com] > > Sendt: 23. mai 2002 16:14 > > Til: 'am...@westin-emission.no'; 'emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org' > > Emne: RE: Accreditation - testing ourselves > > > > > > From: am...@westin-emission.no [mailto:am...@westin-emission.no] > > Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 8:25 AM > > > > >An EMC test lab is accredited according to ISO/IEC 17025. They are also > > >accredited for many tests as the IEC61000-4-series, EN55022 and many > other. > > >We have previously done some EMC pre-testing in this lab and we have > > >operated the test equipment ourselves. Now, they won't let us do that > with > > >reference to their accreditation status. The test lab personnel have to > > >operate the test equipment. Does it make sense, is there any restriction > in > > >the accreditation ? > > > > There is nothing in ISO 17025 that would prevent a lab from allowing > someone > > from coming in and using the equipment. However, if they had not made > > provisions in their QA manual for use by non lab personnel they would be > in > > violation of there own procedures and subject to audit findings by the lab > > accrediting body. > > > > Specifically they would need to address; how they were going to ensure > that > > testing done by non lab personnel would not be represented as lab > performed > > testing and that test equipment was still in calibration after use by non > > lab personnel. > > > > They may be hiding behind the accreditation as a graceful way of stopping > a > > practice they no longer want to be involved in. > > > > Dave Clement > > Motorola Inc. > > Global Homologation Engineering > > 20 Cabot Blvd. > > Mansfield, MA 02048 > > > > P:508-851-8259 > > F:508-851-8512 > > C:508-725-9689 > > mailto:dave.clem...@motorola.com > > > > > > > > --- > > This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety > > Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. > > > > Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.or
SV: Accreditation - testing ourselves
100% agree, Darren. My point was that the test lab would not let us carry out some pre-testing ourselves (checking out different EMI efforts). When feeling comfortable, of course only qualified lab staff should do the accredited test. When a test lab do not let a good customer run some pre-compliance test on his own, it must be: 1. Not allowed according to the laboratory own QA manual 2. Customers not qualified to run the test equipment 3. Insurance, etc. 4. Do not want to offer this type of service 5. Lab want to employ own staff for pre-compliance testing Best regards Amund -Opprinnelig melding- Fra: Darren Pearson [mailto:dar...@genesysibs.com] Sendt: 28. mai 2002 10:18 Til: am...@westin-emission.no; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Emne: Re: Accreditation - testing ourselves I believe the accreditation here in the UK, (UKAS) does say the same thing. That only trained responsible staff of the test laboratory may operate the test equipment, if non employees use the equipment the test lab may loose the accreditation. regards Darren Pearson - Original Message - From: To: Sent: Monday, May 27, 2002 1:44 PM Subject: SV: Accreditation - testing ourselves > > Hi Dave > > > >However, if they had not made provisions in their QA manual for use by non > lab personnel they would be in > >violation of there own procedures and subject to audit findings by the lab > accrediting body. > > Agree > > > >They may be hiding behind the accreditation as a graceful way of stopping a > practice they no longer want to be involved in. > > Good point. Agree a lot! > > Best regards > Amund Westin, Oslo/Norway > > -Opprinnelig melding- > Fra: Clement Dave-LDC009 [mailto:dave.clem...@motorola.com] > Sendt: 23. mai 2002 16:14 > Til: 'am...@westin-emission.no'; 'emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org' > Emne: RE: Accreditation - testing ourselves > > > From: am...@westin-emission.no [mailto:am...@westin-emission.no] > Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 8:25 AM > > >An EMC test lab is accredited according to ISO/IEC 17025. They are also > >accredited for many tests as the IEC61000-4-series, EN55022 and many other. > >We have previously done some EMC pre-testing in this lab and we have > >operated the test equipment ourselves. Now, they won't let us do that with > >reference to their accreditation status. The test lab personnel have to > >operate the test equipment. Does it make sense, is there any restriction in > >the accreditation ? > > There is nothing in ISO 17025 that would prevent a lab from allowing someone > from coming in and using the equipment. However, if they had not made > provisions in their QA manual for use by non lab personnel they would be in > violation of there own procedures and subject to audit findings by the lab > accrediting body. > > Specifically they would need to address; how they were going to ensure that > testing done by non lab personnel would not be represented as lab performed > testing and that test equipment was still in calibration after use by non > lab personnel. > > They may be hiding behind the accreditation as a graceful way of stopping a > practice they no longer want to be involved in. > > Dave Clement > Motorola Inc. > Global Homologation Engineering > 20 Cabot Blvd. > Mansfield, MA 02048 > > P:508-851-8259 > F:508-851-8512 > C:508-725-9689 > mailto:dave.clem...@motorola.com > > > > --- > This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety > Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. > > Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ > > To cancel your subscription, send mail to: > majord...@ieee.org > with the single line: > unsubscribe emc-pstc > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com > Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org > Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ > Click on "browse" and then "emc-pstc mailing list" --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on "browse" and then "emc-pstc mailing list"
Re: Accreditation - testing ourselves
I believe the accreditation here in the UK, (UKAS) does say the same thing. That only trained responsible staff of the test laboratory may operate the test equipment, if non employees use the equipment the test lab may loose the accreditation. regards Darren Pearson - Original Message - From: To: Sent: Monday, May 27, 2002 1:44 PM Subject: SV: Accreditation - testing ourselves > > Hi Dave > > > >However, if they had not made provisions in their QA manual for use by non > lab personnel they would be in > >violation of there own procedures and subject to audit findings by the lab > accrediting body. > > Agree > > > >They may be hiding behind the accreditation as a graceful way of stopping a > practice they no longer want to be involved in. > > Good point. Agree a lot! > > Best regards > Amund Westin, Oslo/Norway > > -Opprinnelig melding- > Fra: Clement Dave-LDC009 [mailto:dave.clem...@motorola.com] > Sendt: 23. mai 2002 16:14 > Til: 'am...@westin-emission.no'; 'emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org' > Emne: RE: Accreditation - testing ourselves > > > From: am...@westin-emission.no [mailto:am...@westin-emission.no] > Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 8:25 AM > > >An EMC test lab is accredited according to ISO/IEC 17025. They are also > >accredited for many tests as the IEC61000-4-series, EN55022 and many other. > >We have previously done some EMC pre-testing in this lab and we have > >operated the test equipment ourselves. Now, they won't let us do that with > >reference to their accreditation status. The test lab personnel have to > >operate the test equipment. Does it make sense, is there any restriction in > >the accreditation ? > > There is nothing in ISO 17025 that would prevent a lab from allowing someone > from coming in and using the equipment. However, if they had not made > provisions in their QA manual for use by non lab personnel they would be in > violation of there own procedures and subject to audit findings by the lab > accrediting body. > > Specifically they would need to address; how they were going to ensure that > testing done by non lab personnel would not be represented as lab performed > testing and that test equipment was still in calibration after use by non > lab personnel. > > They may be hiding behind the accreditation as a graceful way of stopping a > practice they no longer want to be involved in. > > Dave Clement > Motorola Inc. > Global Homologation Engineering > 20 Cabot Blvd. > Mansfield, MA 02048 > > P:508-851-8259 > F:508-851-8512 > C:508-725-9689 > mailto:dave.clem...@motorola.com > > > > --- > This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety > Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. > > Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ > > To cancel your subscription, send mail to: > majord...@ieee.org > with the single line: > unsubscribe emc-pstc > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com > Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org > Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ > Click on "browse" and then "emc-pstc mailing list" --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on "browse" and then "emc-pstc mailing list"
SV: Accreditation - testing ourselves
Hi Dave >However, if they had not made provisions in their QA manual for use by non lab personnel they would be in >violation of there own procedures and subject to audit findings by the lab accrediting body. Agree >They may be hiding behind the accreditation as a graceful way of stopping a practice they no longer want to be involved in. Good point. Agree a lot! Best regards Amund Westin, Oslo/Norway -Opprinnelig melding- Fra: Clement Dave-LDC009 [mailto:dave.clem...@motorola.com] Sendt: 23. mai 2002 16:14 Til: 'am...@westin-emission.no'; 'emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org' Emne: RE: Accreditation - testing ourselves From: am...@westin-emission.no [mailto:am...@westin-emission.no] Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 8:25 AM >An EMC test lab is accredited according to ISO/IEC 17025. They are also >accredited for many tests as the IEC61000-4-series, EN55022 and many other. >We have previously done some EMC pre-testing in this lab and we have >operated the test equipment ourselves. Now, they won't let us do that with >reference to their accreditation status. The test lab personnel have to >operate the test equipment. Does it make sense, is there any restriction in >the accreditation ? There is nothing in ISO 17025 that would prevent a lab from allowing someone from coming in and using the equipment. However, if they had not made provisions in their QA manual for use by non lab personnel they would be in violation of there own procedures and subject to audit findings by the lab accrediting body. Specifically they would need to address; how they were going to ensure that testing done by non lab personnel would not be represented as lab performed testing and that test equipment was still in calibration after use by non lab personnel. They may be hiding behind the accreditation as a graceful way of stopping a practice they no longer want to be involved in. Dave Clement Motorola Inc. Global Homologation Engineering 20 Cabot Blvd. Mansfield, MA 02048 P:508-851-8259 F:508-851-8512 C:508-725-9689 mailto:dave.clem...@motorola.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on "browse" and then "emc-pstc mailing list"
Re: Accreditation - testing ourselves
y shall use personnel who are employed by, or under contract to, the laboratory. Where contracted and additional technical and key support personnel are used, the laboratory shall ensure that such personnel are supervised and competent and that they work in accordance with the laboratory's quality system." ISO/IEC 17025 clause 5.3.4 includes the following: "Access to and use of areas affecting the quality of the tests and/or calibrations shall be controlled. The laboratory shall determine the extent of control based on its particular circumstances." ISO/IEC 17025 clause 5.5.9 includes the following: "When, for whatever reason, equipment goes outside the direct control of the laboratory, the laboratory shall ensure that the function and calibration status of the equipment are checked and shown to be satisfactory before the equipment is returned to service." On the basis of the actual requirements the accredited lab must do much work to allow someone other than their own staff authorized to do tests under their scope of accreditation or allow others to use the test equipment that was assessed by the Accreditation Body for use in accredited tests. They must: "ensure the competence of all who operate specific equipment" "ensure that such personnel are supervised and competent and that they work in accordance with the laboratory's quality system" "ensure that the function and calibration status of the equipment are checked and shown to be satisfactory before the equipment is returned to service" The above desribed the foundation to assess if someone outside the test personnel can operate the accredited test lab's equipment. Other provisions of ISO/IEC 17025 may be pertinent when details of the actual relationship and circumstances of the situation are assessed. 6- Bottom Line Answer - Can Tests by Non-Accredited Lab Staff Be Done Without Violating Accredited Status a) In general, the controls and precautions to protect the integrity of the equpment and the scope of accredition is not in place such that Tests by Non-Accredited Lab Staff using the equpment supporting the scope of accreditation would lead to a deficiency by the Accreditation Body Assessors (as well as lab internal quality audts). b) With proper control, consistent with ISO/IEC 17025, Tests by Non-Accredited Lab Staff can be done if the lab has objective evidence that the individual is competent to "operate operate specific equipment" and "that they work in accordance with the laboratory's quality system".This approach is found in several in-house accredited laboratories I have assessed that allows EMC development engineers to run tests -- but these are performed as research and development tests or as pre-compliance or equivalent tests without being in violation of the scope of accreditation as no indication or implication that these tests are under the scope of accreditation is made. c) Equipment not used to support accreditation is used by outsiders in a manner sufficiently contolled or monitored to prevent jeopardizing the status of accreditation. Areas for client use or troubleshooting are often designated as such. d) Accredited lab staff from one accredited lab may actually use the other accredited lab's facility which is generally based on an agreement being in place that defines that all staff operating the equipment are competent to operate specific equipment and the provisions of ISO/IEC 17025 are met by the user's of the facility and that the user's are from an Accredited lab. Note, some regulatory authorities may not accept this as they want the accredited lab to own the test facility and equpment being used. An Assessor would write deficiencies against item 6(a) above. Item 6 (b), (c) with adequate objective evidence would be generally accepted. Item 6 (d) would be accepted; however, accreditation to a national standard from the nation that required the accredited lab to own the test facility and equpment being used would not generally be granted. I hope this input has been helpful and may establish some guidelines to determine acceptability of various approaches. Larry Gradin *** * Larry Gradin, PE, QMS-LA * Email: lgra...@integrity-solutions.org & l.gra...@ieee.org * Integrity Solutions Group, Inc. * 6419 Bridgewood Terrace * Boca Raton, FL 33433 USA * Phone 561-289-9137 * Efax: 978-285-6589 * Email to Mobile Phone: 5612899...@mobile.att.net * Web Page http://www.Integrity-Solutions.org ___ Remember - Quality depends on Integrity, Attention To Detail, Cost-Effective Action, and Commitment -- not buzzwords. ********* - Original Message - From: "John Shinn" To: ; "'"EMC-P
RE: Accreditation - testing ourselves
Amund, and everyone I cannot see anything in ISO/IEC 17025 that specifically prevents the use of the laboratory equipment by outside parties, but in the section dealing with "equipment", 5.5.9 states: "When, for whatever reason, equipment goes outside the direct control of the laboratory, the laboratory shall ensure that the function and calibration status of the equipment are checked and shown to be satisfactory before the equipment is returned to service." The laboratory may feel that the overheads involved in this process are too onerous to justify letting you use the equipment yourself. Best wishes Brian Jones EMC Consultant and Competent Body Signatory My own opinion, not necessarily that of any other organisation. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on "browse" and then "emc-pstc mailing list"
RE: Accreditation - testing ourselves and a new question.
In my experience and opinion, they are wasting your time and money. Bob Heller 3M Product Safety, 76-1-01 St. Paul, MN 55107-1208 Tel: 651- 778-6336 Fax: 651-778-6252 = "Gary McInturff" "\"EMC-PSTC (E-mail)\" <" cc: (bcc: Robert E. Heller/US-Corporate/3M/US) 05/23/2002 11:08 AM Subject: RE: Accreditation - testing ourselves and a new question. Please respond to "Gary McInturff" Amund I'm not quite sure I understand this. Are you saying that for pre-qualification only, that you want to run the gear? If that's the case I don't believe that their accreditation speaks to that in any fashion, but their business insurance etc might have something to say about it. If my main income was coming from the continued operation and calibration of some very expensive equipment, it would have to be a very special case before I let others operate it and potentially put it at risk. In fact the test lab I use has a branch near me. The measuring equipment, ground plane and structures were all purchased by me for a third company some years ago when I ran the EMI lab and I physically operated it for many years. Obviously, I am intimately familiar with it, but I keep my hands off of it, unless they ask me to make a quick check or something. If it is for accreditation then I think the hang-up is going to be in the quality manuals and documents that are part of the lab's accreditation. There is a section on the test personnel and their past and future training etc. You are not an employee of the lab so wouldn't fall under their quality guidelines, or necessarily adhere to their processes. To insure that they would have to sit there and oversee you, even if they were to allow. So they are going to charge you for the lab personnel anyway. As long as we are talking about procedural changes I would like to ask how test labs are treating the various input voltages available in most equipment. This would be for radiated emissions not conducted. Conducted emissions tests at different voltages are pretty clear in my mind, but not radiated emissions. Until just recently all of the labs I am aware of, and I used three or four, all used the same process for radiated emissions. Under the assumption that the logic operated at the same 5, 3.3 or 2.2 volts not matter what the input power range was. The radiated emissions was performed at generally 120 Vac, in the US. One lab always ran it at 230, as CISPR 22 made reference to the input voltage, while the US largely left it unaddressed other than noting that they accept the CISPR 22 limits and procedures as long as they are used both in amplitude and frequency range. I once saw a reference, may be Taiwan, that specified testing at multiple voltages, but even then only for Class B equipment. My primary lab has started, a prescan at each voltage under consideration, 120 and 230, and then selected a test voltage. It has now advanced to doing a much more intense scan at 100, 120 , 230 volts and then selecting a voltage (variances are often more equipment temperature related than voltage related, in my opinion and are in the noise floor - less than 1 dB). Only then does the test begin. The last time I was there the "pre-scan" took three hours. Then we could look for a full range of suspects, and finals. What used to be about a 4 hour process has become an 8 hour process, doubling my test expenses. Other than their desire for accuracy, which is a bit difficult to argue against, I can't find justification in the standards that demand it and it is eroding my budget. So basically I need to have a sanity check and either quit complaining at the test house or force the issue. In all other respects they do a great job and I enjoy working w
RE: Accreditation - testing ourselves
It is not true of 17025 nor is it the way auditors interpret it. An accredited lab is an accredited lab. Bob Heller 3M Product Safety, 76-1-01 St. Paul, MN 55107-1208 Tel: 651- 778-6336 Fax: 651-778-6252 Michael.Sundstrom@ nokia.comTo: dave.clem...@motorola.com am...@westin-emission.no 05/23/2002 10:59 emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org AM cc: (bcc: Robert E. Heller/US-Corporate/3M/US) Please respond toSubject: RE: Accreditation - testing ourselves Michael.Sundstrom Don't forget the aspect of self testing. Doesn't 17025 have special provisions / requirements about self testing your own item? I hear third party testing is always given precedence over self testing data. Is this true and written in 17025 or just the way the auditors interpret it? Michael Sundstrom NOKIA TCC Dallas / EMC ofc: (972) 374-1462 cell: (817) 917-5021 amateur call: KB5UKT -Original Message- From: ext Clement Dave-LDC009 [mailto:dave.clem...@motorola.com] Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 9:14 AM To: 'am...@westin-emission.no'; 'emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org' Subject: RE: Accreditation - testing ourselves From: am...@westin-emission.no [mailto:am...@westin-emission.no] Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 8:25 AM >An EMC test lab is accredited according to ISO/IEC 17025. They are also >accredited for many tests as the IEC61000-4-series, EN55022 and many other. >We have previously done some EMC pre-testing in this lab and we have >operated the test equipment ourselves. Now, they won't let us do that with >reference to their accreditation status. The test lab personnel have to >operate the test equipment. Does it make sense, is there any restriction in >the accreditation ? There is nothing in ISO 17025 that would prevent a lab from allowing someone from coming in and using the equipment. However, if they had not made provisions in their QA manual for use by non lab personnel they would be in violation of there own procedures and subject to audit findings by the lab accrediting body. Specifically they would need to address; how they were going to ensure that testing done by non lab personnel would not be represented as lab performed testing and that test equipment was still in calibration after use by non lab personnel. They may be hiding behind the accreditation as a graceful way of stopping a practice they no longer want to be involved in. Dave Clement Motorola Inc. Global Homologation Engineering 20 Cabot Blvd. Mansfield, MA 02048 P:508-851-8259 F:508-851-8512 C:508-725-9689 mailto:dave.clem...@motorola.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on "browse" and then "emc-pstc mailing list" --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.
RE: Accreditation - testing ourselves
Michael, Second and Third party testing is a different issue from what Amund was asking. Second party accreditation has to address independence within the organization to ensure results can not be impacted by business pressures of the organization. Third party accreditation must address confidentiality to ensure one companies proprietary info is not made known to another. It is only natural to feel more comfortable with a report from an independent lab than one from the manufacturers own lab even if both labs have the same accreditation. From a regulatory standpoint this used to be a requirement but now with all the self declaration programs appearing it is less and less mandatory. Dave Clement Motorola Inc. Global Homologation Engineering 20 Cabot Blvd. Mansfield, MA 02048 P:508-851-8259 F:508-851-8512 C:508-725-9689 mailto:dave.clem...@motorola.com -Original Message- From: michael.sundst...@nokia.com [mailto:michael.sundst...@nokia.com] Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 12:00 PM To: Dave Clement; am...@westin-emission.no; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Accreditation - testing ourselves Don't forget the aspect of self testing. Doesn't 17025 have special provisions / requirements about self testing your own item? I hear third party testing is always given precedence over self testing data. Is this true and written in 17025 or just the way the auditors interpret it? Michael Sundstrom NOKIA TCC Dallas / EMC ofc: (972) 374-1462 cell: (817) 917-5021 amateur call: KB5UKT -Original Message- From: ext Clement Dave-LDC009 [mailto:dave.clem...@motorola.com] Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 9:14 AM To: 'am...@westin-emission.no'; 'emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org' Subject: RE: Accreditation - testing ourselves From: am...@westin-emission.no [mailto:am...@westin-emission.no] Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 8:25 AM >An EMC test lab is accredited according to ISO/IEC 17025. They are also >accredited for many tests as the IEC61000-4-series, EN55022 and many other. >We have previously done some EMC pre-testing in this lab and we have >operated the test equipment ourselves. Now, they won't let us do that with >reference to their accreditation status. The test lab personnel have to >operate the test equipment. Does it make sense, is there any restriction in >the accreditation ? There is nothing in ISO 17025 that would prevent a lab from allowing someone from coming in and using the equipment. However, if they had not made provisions in their QA manual for use by non lab personnel they would be in violation of there own procedures and subject to audit findings by the lab accrediting body. Specifically they would need to address; how they were going to ensure that testing done by non lab personnel would not be represented as lab performed testing and that test equipment was still in calibration after use by non lab personnel. They may be hiding behind the accreditation as a graceful way of stopping a practice they no longer want to be involved in. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on "browse" and then "emc-pstc mailing list"
RE: Accreditation - testing ourselves
Yes, it does make sense. I am speaking from the position of an Accredited Laboratory. When a lab is accredited, it will receive a certificate of accreditation which states that it is accredited to ISO 17025 (and the accrediting body) and a "Scope of Accreditation". The Scope of Accreditation will list those acitivites (or standards) that the lab is may perform under the accreditation. During the accreditation process, the lab personnel are evaluated in their knowledge and ability to perform those tests. The Accredited lab is responsible for ascertaining that the test were performed correctly and according to the documented procedure. Thus, in order to assure that the test was performed correctly, the lab will require that the lab personnel perform the test. However, the lab may perform other tests outside of their scope. In doing so, they are not allowed to use the logo of the accrediting body, or indicate that the test report is generated by an accredcited laboratory. If you want to do an Engineering Evaluation and want data only, then it would probably be ok if you ran the test, but that would depend upon the policy of the Lab. There is no requirement that they have to allow you to use their equipment for performing the test. If you want a Final Test Report with all of the applicable accreditations, then you would want the lab's personnel to perform the test. The result would be a test report that would be recognized by many regulatory agencies, depending upon the lab's accreditation and MRA status. John Shinn, P.E. Manager, Lab Operations Sanmina-SCI Homologation Services -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of am...@westin-emission.no Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 5:25 AM To: "EMC-PSTC (E-mail)" < Subject: Accreditation - testing ourselves Hi all, An EMC test lab is accredited according to ISO/IEC 17025. They are also accredited for many tests as the IEC61000-4-series, EN55022 and many other. We have previously done some EMC pre-testing in this lab and we have operated the test equipment ourselves. Now, they won't let us do that with reference to their accreditation status. The test lab personnel have to operate the test equipment. Does it make sense, is there any restriction in the accreditation ? We have always made a clear cut between pre-testing and accredited testing. Best regards Amund Westin --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on "browse" and then "emc-pstc mailing list" --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on "browse" and then "emc-pstc mailing list"
RE: Accreditation - testing ourselves and a new question.
Amund I'm not quite sure I understand this. Are you saying that for pre-qualification only, that you want to run the gear? If that's the case I don't believe that their accreditation speaks to that in any fashion, but their business insurance etc might have something to say about it. If my main income was coming from the continued operation and calibration of some very expensive equipment, it would have to be a very special case before I let others operate it and potentially put it at risk. In fact the test lab I use has a branch near me. The measuring equipment, ground plane and structures were all purchased by me for a third company some years ago when I ran the EMI lab and I physically operated it for many years. Obviously, I am intimately familiar with it, but I keep my hands off of it, unless they ask me to make a quick check or something. If it is for accreditation then I think the hang-up is going to be in the quality manuals and documents that are part of the lab's accreditation. There is a section on the test personnel and their past and future training etc. You are not an employee of the lab so wouldn't fall under their quality guidelines, or necessarily adhere to their processes. To insure that they would have to sit there and oversee you, even if they were to allow. So they are going to charge you for the lab personnel anyway. As long as we are talking about procedural changes I would like to ask how test labs are treating the various input voltages available in most equipment. This would be for radiated emissions not conducted. Conducted emissions tests at different voltages are pretty clear in my mind, but not radiated emissions. Until just recently all of the labs I am aware of, and I used three or four, all used the same process for radiated emissions. Under the assumption that the logic operated at the same 5, 3.3 or 2.2 volts not matter what the input power range was. The radiated emissions was performed at generally 120 Vac, in the US. One lab always ran it at 230, as CISPR 22 made reference to the input voltage, while the US largely left it unaddressed other than noting that they accept the CISPR 22 limits and procedures as long as they are used both in amplitude and frequency range. I once saw a reference, may be Taiwan, that specified testing at multiple voltages, but even then only for Class B equipment. My primary lab has started, a prescan at each voltage under consideration, 120 and 230, and then selected a test voltage. It has now advanced to doing a much more intense scan at 100, 120 , 230 volts and then selecting a voltage (variances are often more equipment temperature related than voltage related, in my opinion and are in the noise floor - less than 1 dB). Only then does the test begin. The last time I was there the "pre-scan" took three hours. Then we could look for a full range of suspects, and finals. What used to be about a 4 hour process has become an 8 hour process, doubling my test expenses. Other than their desire for accuracy, which is a bit difficult to argue against, I can't find justification in the standards that demand it and it is eroding my budget. So basically I need to have a sanity check and either quit complaining at the test house or force the issue. In all other respects they do a great job and I enjoy working with them. This is ITE equipment with an auto ranging switch mode power supply. Gary -Original Message- From: am...@westin-emission.no [mailto:am...@westin-emission.no] Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 5:25 AM To: "EMC-PSTC (E-mail)" < Subject: Accreditation - testing ourselves Hi all, An EMC test lab is accredited according to ISO/IEC 17025. They are also accredited for many tests as the IEC61000-4-series, EN55022 and many other. We have previously done some EMC pre-testing in this lab and we have operated the test equipment ourselves. Now, they won't let us do that with reference to their accreditation status. The test lab personnel have to operate the test equipment. Does it make sense, is there any restriction in the accreditation ? We have always made a clear cut between pre-testing and accredited testing. Best regards Amund Westin --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All e
RE: Accreditation - testing ourselves
Don't forget the aspect of self testing. Doesn't 17025 have special provisions / requirements about self testing your own item? I hear third party testing is always given precedence over self testing data. Is this true and written in 17025 or just the way the auditors interpret it? Michael Sundstrom NOKIA TCC Dallas / EMC ofc: (972) 374-1462 cell: (817) 917-5021 amateur call: KB5UKT -Original Message- From: ext Clement Dave-LDC009 [mailto:dave.clem...@motorola.com] Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 9:14 AM To: 'am...@westin-emission.no'; 'emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org' Subject: RE: Accreditation - testing ourselves From: am...@westin-emission.no [mailto:am...@westin-emission.no] Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 8:25 AM >An EMC test lab is accredited according to ISO/IEC 17025. They are also >accredited for many tests as the IEC61000-4-series, EN55022 and many other. >We have previously done some EMC pre-testing in this lab and we have >operated the test equipment ourselves. Now, they won't let us do that with >reference to their accreditation status. The test lab personnel have to >operate the test equipment. Does it make sense, is there any restriction in >the accreditation ? There is nothing in ISO 17025 that would prevent a lab from allowing someone from coming in and using the equipment. However, if they had not made provisions in their QA manual for use by non lab personnel they would be in violation of there own procedures and subject to audit findings by the lab accrediting body. Specifically they would need to address; how they were going to ensure that testing done by non lab personnel would not be represented as lab performed testing and that test equipment was still in calibration after use by non lab personnel. They may be hiding behind the accreditation as a graceful way of stopping a practice they no longer want to be involved in. Dave Clement Motorola Inc. Global Homologation Engineering 20 Cabot Blvd. Mansfield, MA 02048 P:508-851-8259 F:508-851-8512 C:508-725-9689 mailto:dave.clem...@motorola.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on "browse" and then "emc-pstc mailing list" --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on "browse" and then "emc-pstc mailing list"
Re: Accreditation - testing ourselves
As long as the data you gather is not used in a test report to show compliance, it is between you and the lab (and their lawyers) as to what you can and cannot do. It has nothing to do with accreditation. Bob Heller 3M Product Safety, 76-1-01 St. Paul, MN 55107-1208 Tel: 651- 778-6336 Fax: 651-778-6252 = amund@westin-emiss ion.no To: "\"EMC-PSTC \(E-mail\)\" <" cc: (bcc: Robert E. Heller/US-Corporate/3M/US) 05/23/2002 07:25 Subject: Accreditation - testing ourselves AM Please respond to amund Hi all, An EMC test lab is accredited according to ISO/IEC 17025. They are also accredited for many tests as the IEC61000-4-series, EN55022 and many other. We have previously done some EMC pre-testing in this lab and we have operated the test equipment ourselves. Now, they won't let us do that with reference to their accreditation status. The test lab personnel have to operate the test equipment. Does it make sense, is there any restriction in the accreditation ? We have always made a clear cut between pre-testing and accredited testing. Best regards Amund Westin --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on "browse" and then "emc-pstc mailing list" --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on "browse" and then "emc-pstc mailing list"
RE: Accreditation - testing ourselves
From: am...@westin-emission.no [mailto:am...@westin-emission.no] Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 8:25 AM >An EMC test lab is accredited according to ISO/IEC 17025. They are also >accredited for many tests as the IEC61000-4-series, EN55022 and many other. >We have previously done some EMC pre-testing in this lab and we have >operated the test equipment ourselves. Now, they won't let us do that with >reference to their accreditation status. The test lab personnel have to >operate the test equipment. Does it make sense, is there any restriction in >the accreditation ? There is nothing in ISO 17025 that would prevent a lab from allowing someone from coming in and using the equipment. However, if they had not made provisions in their QA manual for use by non lab personnel they would be in violation of there own procedures and subject to audit findings by the lab accrediting body. Specifically they would need to address; how they were going to ensure that testing done by non lab personnel would not be represented as lab performed testing and that test equipment was still in calibration after use by non lab personnel. They may be hiding behind the accreditation as a graceful way of stopping a practice they no longer want to be involved in. Dave Clement Motorola Inc. Global Homologation Engineering 20 Cabot Blvd. Mansfield, MA 02048 P:508-851-8259 F:508-851-8512 C:508-725-9689 mailto:dave.clem...@motorola.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on "browse" and then "emc-pstc mailing list"
Accreditation - testing ourselves
Hi all, An EMC test lab is accredited according to ISO/IEC 17025. They are also accredited for many tests as the IEC61000-4-series, EN55022 and many other. We have previously done some EMC pre-testing in this lab and we have operated the test equipment ourselves. Now, they won't let us do that with reference to their accreditation status. The test lab personnel have to operate the test equipment. Does it make sense, is there any restriction in the accreditation ? We have always made a clear cut between pre-testing and accredited testing. Best regards Amund Westin --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on "browse" and then "emc-pstc mailing list"
