Re: Electric Fence Controllers
Hi John Thanks for the response and the general update on the situation - as for the reference to the committee number, it was LEL/105 when I was there but I have'nt followed its progress since then. Regards John Allen - Original Message - From: John Woodgate j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Sent: Friday, August 30, 2002 11:26 AM Subject: Re: Electric Fence Controllers I read in !emc-pstc that John Allen ja014d7...@blueyonder.co.uk wrote (in 048001c24f9d$bd8895a0$0200a8c0@johnallen) about 'Electric Fence Controllers' on Thu, 29 Aug 2002: I once (about 12 years ago) had the dubious priviledge of being the Comittee Secretary for the UK BSI standards committee dealing with these beasts at British International levels! What is now CPL/61? This question was never asked (that was probably before my time!) but it was my impression that these had fallen into the too difficult category and the Commission at the time of the Directive (1972/73)ducked the issue to ensure that it got agreed and that all the more common items got dealt with.. I think you are right. There certainly was (and probably still is - which is why the situation in the Directive does not appear to have changed) Item 10 of the Commission 'request for comment document 'LVD Update 1' says: QUOTE General support to include Electric fence controller to the scope of the LVD. France: Objection because the intended use of these products is not inline with the aims of the directive. ENDQUOTE a considerable difference of opinion between various countries as their safety and what the voltage and particular pulse tim/energy limits should apply. Indeed. Related to the perimeters of typical fields. Effectively, countries with small fields (like many in Europe) wanted low power units which probably were safe enough for general use, and possibly could have been kept within the LVD by some form of energy limitation kluge. However, countries with big - or very big (like Australia and New Zealand, etc.) - fields wanted units with lots more energy to avoid the deterent effect being substantially reduced by contact with conductive vegetation, etc. Of course, at agricultural shows in Britain, they are demonstrated producing 5 cm sparks. I wonder how they do that. (;-) In the end (after I left BSI) I believe that some units were finally covered under Part 2 Sections of IEC 60335 - but I personally doubt that they are the high power versions. BS EN 60335-2-76. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: Electric Fence Controllers
I read in !emc-pstc that John Allen ja014d7...@blueyonder.co.uk wrote (in 048001c24f9d$bd8895a0$0200a8c0@johnallen) about 'Electric Fence Controllers' on Thu, 29 Aug 2002: I once (about 12 years ago) had the dubious priviledge of being the Comittee Secretary for the UK BSI standards committee dealing with these beasts at British International levels! What is now CPL/61? This question was never asked (that was probably before my time!) but it was my impression that these had fallen into the too difficult category and the Commission at the time of the Directive (1972/73)ducked the issue to ensure that it got agreed and that all the more common items got dealt with.. I think you are right. There certainly was (and probably still is - which is why the situation in the Directive does not appear to have changed) Item 10 of the Commission 'request for comment document 'LVD Update 1' says: QUOTE General support to include Electric fence controller to the scope of the LVD. France: Objection because the intended use of these products is not inline with the aims of the directive. ENDQUOTE a considerable difference of opinion between various countries as their safety and what the voltage and particular pulse tim/energy limits should apply. Indeed. Related to the perimeters of typical fields. Effectively, countries with small fields (like many in Europe) wanted low power units which probably were safe enough for general use, and possibly could have been kept within the LVD by some form of energy limitation kluge. However, countries with big - or very big (like Australia and New Zealand, etc.) - fields wanted units with lots more energy to avoid the deterent effect being substantially reduced by contact with conductive vegetation, etc. Of course, at agricultural shows in Britain, they are demonstrated producing 5 cm sparks. I wonder how they do that. (;-) In the end (after I left BSI) I believe that some units were finally covered under Part 2 Sections of IEC 60335 - but I personally doubt that they are the high power versions. BS EN 60335-2-76. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: Electric Fence Controllers
Stuart, I would assume that the power supply providing power to the fence is the normal utility supply (115/230 V). Therefore, the system is indeed covered by the LVD. This e-mail message may contain privileged or confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, you may not disclose, use, disseminate, distribute, copy or rely upon this message or attachment in any way. If you received this e-mail message in error, please return by forwarding the message and its attachments to the sender. PETER S. MERGUERIAN Technical Director I.T.L. (Product Testing) Ltd. 26 Hacharoshet St., POB 211 Or Yehuda 60251, Israel Tel: + 972-(0)3-5339022 Fax: + 972-(0)3-5339019 Mobile: + 972-(0)54-838175 http://www.itl.co.il http://www.i-spec.com -Original Message- From: Ablewisp - Compliance Consultants [mailto:s...@ablewisp.com] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 5:11 PM To: Emc-Pstc Subject: Electric Fence Controllers Hi I've been asked why electric fence controllers are outside the scope of the LVD. I don't know much about them and assume its because they generate voltages exceeding the LVD upper limit. Is my assumption correct? Many thanks Stuart Miller --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: Electric Fence Controllers
Ah yes, -sparking, sizzling wire fences... About 40 yrs ago I spent a few summers visiting with an uncle and family on his Iowa farm. He had a small electrified pen with hogs in it. My cousin would dare me to take a blade of grass and loop it around the wire to see how much jolt I could take before letting go. The loop usually burnt through before I reached threshold, unless I ignorantly used a wide blade of buffalo grass... One heavily dewed morning, we were heading for the car to go to town and another cousin, Kerry Sue (who lived on the farm), excitedly ran toward the car (to occupy the shotgun position) that was parked adjacent to the hog pen. She slipped on the wet weeds. Her body slid under the electrified wires, wrapping her long hair around the lowest conductor. We stood around and laughed as she yelled and convulsed from the pulses. You could actually see tiny arcs in her hair. -maybe that's why to this day she is so docile... Most of these chargers are rated by the miles of wire they can energize, up to 20 miles worth! I seem to remember versions that were battery powered and only a few that were line powered. Determining safety requirements for these is why we get the big bucks...grin Happy Labor Day Holiday (USA), Kyle - Original Message - From: Pettit, Ghery ghery.pet...@intel.com To: 'John Allen' ja014d7...@blueyonder.co.uk; Ablewisp - Compliance Consultants s...@ablewisp.com; Emc-Pstc emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 4:01 PM Subject: RE: Electric Fence Controllers Reminds me of when my son (now 25) was very young. We were visiting relatives in California who used electric fences to keep the cattle where they belonged. We were sitting around talking when my son came into the house with eyes as big as saucers to report that the fence shook me!. It took a moment for us to realize what had happened, and then the poor kid had to listen to us all crack up. He grabbed the wire between pulses, then got the treatment. He's been very careful around electric fences ever since. And these fencers were used on multiple thousand foot runs of wire. You could find the shorts to vegetation by walking the fence and listening for the arc. Ghery Pettit -Original Message- From: John Allen [mailto:ja014d7...@blueyonder.co.uk] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 1:51 PM To: Ablewisp - Compliance Consultants; Emc-Pstc Subject: Re: Electric Fence Controllers Hi Folks I once (about 12 years ago) had the dubious priviledge of being the Comittee Secretary for the UK BSI standards committee dealing with these beasts at British International levels! This question was never asked (that was probably before my time!) but it was my impression that these had fallen into the too difficult category and the Commission at the time of the Directive (1972/73)ducked the issue to ensure that it got agreed and that all the more common items got dealt with.. There certainly was (and probably still is - which is why the situation in the Directive does not appear to have changed) a considerable difference of opinion between various countries as their safety and what the voltage and particular pulse tim/energy limits should apply. Effectively, countries with small fields (like many in Europe) wanted low power units which probably were safe enough for general use, and possibly could have been kept within the LVD by some form of energy limitation kluge. However, countries with big - or very big (like Australia and New Zealand, etc.) - fields wanted units with lots more energy to avoid the deterent effect being substantially reduced by contact with conductive vegetation, etc. In the end (after I left BSI) I believe that some units were finally covered under Part 2 Sections of IEC 60335 - but I personally doubt that they are the high power versions. Does'nt really explain the situation fully but might give you some idea of what was/is behind the exclusion - and do'nt forget that there are other exclusions as well. Regards John Allen - Original Message - From: Ablewisp - Compliance Consultants s...@ablewisp.com To: Emc-Pstc emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 4:11 PM Subject: Electric Fence Controllers Hi I've been asked why electric fence controllers are outside the scope of the LVD. I don't know much about them and assume its because they generate voltages exceeding the LVD upper limit. Is my assumption correct? Many thanks Stuart Miller --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p
Re: Electric Fence Controllers
Don't ask me where I got this, but ... An electrically dangerous fence is defined in most countries by the energy that the fence can deliver to a 500 ohm load in a second. The IEC is something like 8 joules from fence energizers. Canada and the UK is something like 5 Joules. The fence must pulse once every second. There is an IEC regulation on them, but what it is I haven't a clue. As far as how they relate to the LVD and such, I also haven't a clue. Sorry for all the non-information. Regards, Doug McKean --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: Electric Fence Controllers
Reminds me of when my son (now 25) was very young. We were visiting relatives in California who used electric fences to keep the cattle where they belonged. We were sitting around talking when my son came into the house with eyes as big as saucers to report that the fence shook me!. It took a moment for us to realize what had happened, and then the poor kid had to listen to us all crack up. He grabbed the wire between pulses, then got the treatment. He's been very careful around electric fences ever since. And these fencers were used on multiple thousand foot runs of wire. You could find the shorts to vegetation by walking the fence and listening for the arc. Ghery Pettit -Original Message- From: John Allen [mailto:ja014d7...@blueyonder.co.uk] Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 1:51 PM To: Ablewisp - Compliance Consultants; Emc-Pstc Subject: Re: Electric Fence Controllers Hi Folks I once (about 12 years ago) had the dubious priviledge of being the Comittee Secretary for the UK BSI standards committee dealing with these beasts at British International levels! This question was never asked (that was probably before my time!) but it was my impression that these had fallen into the too difficult category and the Commission at the time of the Directive (1972/73)ducked the issue to ensure that it got agreed and that all the more common items got dealt with.. There certainly was (and probably still is - which is why the situation in the Directive does not appear to have changed) a considerable difference of opinion between various countries as their safety and what the voltage and particular pulse tim/energy limits should apply. Effectively, countries with small fields (like many in Europe) wanted low power units which probably were safe enough for general use, and possibly could have been kept within the LVD by some form of energy limitation kluge. However, countries with big - or very big (like Australia and New Zealand, etc.) - fields wanted units with lots more energy to avoid the deterent effect being substantially reduced by contact with conductive vegetation, etc. In the end (after I left BSI) I believe that some units were finally covered under Part 2 Sections of IEC 60335 - but I personally doubt that they are the high power versions. Does'nt really explain the situation fully but might give you some idea of what was/is behind the exclusion - and do'nt forget that there are other exclusions as well. Regards John Allen - Original Message - From: Ablewisp - Compliance Consultants s...@ablewisp.com To: Emc-Pstc emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 4:11 PM Subject: Electric Fence Controllers Hi I've been asked why electric fence controllers are outside the scope of the LVD. I don't know much about them and assume its because they generate voltages exceeding the LVD upper limit. Is my assumption correct? Many thanks Stuart Miller --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions
Re: Electric Fence Controllers
Hi Folks I once (about 12 years ago) had the dubious priviledge of being the Comittee Secretary for the UK BSI standards committee dealing with these beasts at British International levels! This question was never asked (that was probably before my time!) but it was my impression that these had fallen into the too difficult category and the Commission at the time of the Directive (1972/73)ducked the issue to ensure that it got agreed and that all the more common items got dealt with.. There certainly was (and probably still is - which is why the situation in the Directive does not appear to have changed) a considerable difference of opinion between various countries as their safety and what the voltage and particular pulse tim/energy limits should apply. Effectively, countries with small fields (like many in Europe) wanted low power units which probably were safe enough for general use, and possibly could have been kept within the LVD by some form of energy limitation kluge. However, countries with big - or very big (like Australia and New Zealand, etc.) - fields wanted units with lots more energy to avoid the deterent effect being substantially reduced by contact with conductive vegetation, etc. In the end (after I left BSI) I believe that some units were finally covered under Part 2 Sections of IEC 60335 - but I personally doubt that they are the high power versions. Does'nt really explain the situation fully but might give you some idea of what was/is behind the exclusion - and do'nt forget that there are other exclusions as well. Regards John Allen - Original Message - From: Ablewisp - Compliance Consultants s...@ablewisp.com To: Emc-Pstc emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 4:11 PM Subject: Electric Fence Controllers Hi I've been asked why electric fence controllers are outside the scope of the LVD. I don't know much about them and assume its because they generate voltages exceeding the LVD upper limit. Is my assumption correct? Many thanks Stuart Miller --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: Electric Fence Controllers
Everything in the LVD is designed to prevent electric shock. Electric fencers are specifically designed to give electric shocks. I guess that is why fencers would be outside the scope. I don't know the state of electric fences today. Thirty five years ago, there were several types. One type was the weed burner that put out about 1000 volts, about 1 second on and 1 second off. The current was high enough to burn away weeds the touched the charged wire. I grabbed a wire charged by one of these once. The second type put out a short pulse of about 4000 volts every second or so. They put out sufficient current to maintain a painful voltage if weeds touched the charged wire. My dad even got a good shock off a charged wire that was submerged in an overflowing creek! The last type kept the wired charged continuously at voltage, lower than either of the two previous types. I assume there are now some regulations about voltages, currents, and waveforms to keep these devices at some low level of lethality. Don Borowski Schweitzer Engineering Labs Pullman, WA Ablewisp - Compliance Consultants s...@ablewisp.com on 08/29/2002 08:11:03 AM Please respond to Ablewisp - Compliance Consultants s...@ablewisp.com To: Emc-Pstc emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org cc:(bcc: Don Borowski/SEL) Subject: Electric Fence Controllers Hi I've been asked why electric fence controllers are outside the scope of the LVD. I don't know much about them and assume its because they generate voltages exceeding the LVD upper limit. Is my assumption correct? Many thanks Stuart Miller --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list This e-mail may contain SEL confidential information. The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of SEL. Any unauthorized disclosure, distribution or other use is prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender, permanently delete it, and destroy any printout. Thank you. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Electric Fence Controllers
Hi I've been asked why electric fence controllers are outside the scope of the LVD. I don't know much about them and assume its because they generate voltages exceeding the LVD upper limit. Is my assumption correct? Many thanks Stuart Miller --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
