Re: French Customs demand EC Declaration!
In article 199907151336_mc2-7d1e-2...@compuserve.com, Peter E. Perkins peperk...@compuserve.com writes Further, it is true that outside manufacturers are at a disadvantage in this process because Customs is the primary gatekeeper for this process. Since the internal borders have been taken down, the Euro manufacturers don't have to jump the same hurdles... Guess I've never expected this to be a level playing field. Customs is not used for CE Mark enforcement in the UK. The local Trading Standards Officers have been given the responsibility of enforcing the CE Marking etc. in the UK. [Explanation for non UK residents] The Trading Standards Officers are employed by the local (government) Council and enforce retail trading laws such as correct weights and measures, description of goods for sale etc. UK exporters also have problems with French Customs because the French insist that components such as a PCB should be CE Marked whereas the UK law insists that it is illegal to mark components. The silly result of the differences between the French UK implementation of the EMC and CE Marking Directives is that theoretically the CE Mark can only be applied when the ship carrying the goods between the UK and France is in international waters.! I am not sure what you are supposed to do when you use the cross-channel tunnel. :-0 Allan -- Allan G.Carr B.Sc.(Elec.Eng) AMIEE | AGC-Tel Consultants Ltd Telecommunications Consultant | Tel: +44(0)141-956-2506 European Approvals Specialist | Fax: +44(0)141-956-5347 62 Crawford Road, Milngavie | Voice Mail: +44(0)1252-30-3062 Glasgow, G62 7LF, Scotland | http://www.acarr.demon.co.uk - This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc (without the quotes). For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com, jim_bac...@monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators).
Re: French Customs demand EC Declaration!
Thank you to all who commented on my French Customs problem. Clearly the expedient solution is to supply a copy of the Declaration of Conformity with each shipment to France, and we will do this. I am also asking the authorities how the French are able to do this! In answer to one question, the French Customs law which we were referred to deals only with EMC and not with the LVD. Roger Viles Group Standards Manager Wavetek Wandel Goltermann RCIC - http://www.rcic.com Regulatory Compliance Information Center - This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc (without the quotes). For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com, jim_bac...@monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators).
RE: French Customs demand EC Declaration!
For those of you whose product is machinery, Article 2 of the Machinery Directive http://europa.eu.int/eur-lex/en/lif/dat/1998/en_398L0037.html contains the following: --- 3. At trade fairs, exhibitions, demonstrations, etc., Member States shall not prevent the showing of machinery or safety components which do not conform to the provisions of this Directive, provided that a visible sign clearly indicates that such machinery or safety components do not conform and that they are not for sale until they have been brought into conformity by the manufacturer or his authorized representative established in the Community. During demonstrations, adequate safety measures shall be taken to ensure the protection of persons. --- You might reasonably argue with customs that if they prevent you importing it, they are preventing you from showing it. Although clearly a useful exemption, note that you your employees (normally) retain ownership, control, custody, supervision, etc. at a trade show; which is very different from a Beta site, where you may (or may not) retain ownership, but the customer is operating the machinery. Also, I'm not sure what you are supposed to do about EMC LVD compliance, if they also apply to your machine. (I think this came up before on this listserv, might be worth us all reading the archives!) regards, glyn Glyn Garside (Director, Engineering Services) mailto:glyn.gars...@adept.com Adept Technology Inc, 150 Rose Orchard Way, San Jose, CA 95134, USAhttp://www.adept.com TEL +1(408)434-5057FAX +1(408)434-5163 Robots motion controls; Robot, CMM, NC assembly simulation. -Original Message- From: Grant, Tania (Tania) [mailto:tgr...@lucent.com] Sent: Friday, July 16, 1999 09:59 To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org; 'andreas.tho...@toshiba-teg.com' Subject: RE: French Customs demand EC Declaration! Thomas, Read the fine print in the EMC Directive regarding placing [equipment] on the market and putting it into service. You also might want to have your legal representative take a look. I read that providing 'samples' to potential customers is placing [equipment] on the market but not putting it into service. There is another DRAFT directive that seems to take into account equipment still in the final design stages that is sent to potential customers to undergo further testing with the customer's equipment, i.e., sometimes called BETA. However, that is for EMC. The LVD safety directive does not seem to make any provisions for any BETA systems. If anyone has any more insight into this, I would be very much interested in hearing about this. Tania Grant, Lucent Technologies, Octel Messaging Division tgr...@lucent.com -- From: andreas.tho...@toshiba-teg.com [SMTP:andreas.tho...@toshiba-teg.com] Sent: Friday, July 16, 1999 1:15 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: French Customs demand EC Declaration! Dear All, the process to import production machines into the EU seems clear, but have you considered the problem of samples, too ? Usually, samples are used for evaluation purposes and cannot often be marked with CE because the CE compliance tests should be done at least with the final version. Therefore, no CE-Declaration can be issued and the customs may stop these samples at the border (we experienced the same problems with the French customs). How do you handle sample shimpments into the EU ? Kind regards Andreas Thomas Toshiba Europe GmbH - This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc (without the quotes). For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com, jim_bac...@monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators). - This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc (without the quotes). For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com, jim_bac...@monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators). - This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc (without the quotes). For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com, jim_bac...@monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators).
RE: French Customs demand EC Declaration!
From the document Report of a meeting of the Standing Committee set up under Article 6.2 of the Directive 89/392/EEC dated 25-26 May, 10 June and 13 July 1994. The copy I have is marked DRAFT all over it so this may not be the official word. I quote: PQ.53 If a manufacturer installs machinery on the premises of a potential customer for him to evaluate it but the machinery is not sold and remains the property of the manufacturer, does it have to bear the CE marking and meet the other requirements applicable to it? PA.53 This is a typical case because as long as the machinery remains the property of the manufacturer and as long as the operators are the manufacturer's employees the machinery has not been placed on the market; as soon as the satisfied customer takes delivery the machinery has to comply with the Directive, bear the CE marking, etc. The manufacturer has to make sure that a notice is affixed in the vicinity saying that the machinery is not in conformity with the Directive (Article 2(3)). The situation is different if the manufacturer has supplied the machinery for evaluation by the potential customer. In this case, the machinery has to be considered as placed on the market (handed over provisionally but handed over all the same) and placed in service in accordance with Article 2(2) and must be entirely in conformity with the Directive. Hope this help some. Scott s_doug...@ecrm.com -Original Message- From: tgr...@lucent.com [SMTP:tgr...@lucent.com] Sent: Friday, July 16, 1999 12:59 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org; andreas.tho...@toshiba-teg.com Subject:RE: French Customs demand EC Declaration! Thomas, Read the fine print in the EMC Directive regarding placing [equipment] on the market and putting it into service. You also might want to have your legal representative take a look. I read that providing 'samples' to potential customers is placing [equipment] on the market but not putting it into service. There is another DRAFT directive that seems to take into account equipment still in the final design stages that is sent to potential customers to undergo further testing with the customer's equipment, i.e., sometimes called BETA. However, that is for EMC. The LVD safety directive does not seem to make any provisions for any BETA systems. If anyone has any more insight into this, I would be very much interested in hearing about this. Tania Grant, Lucent Technologies, Octel Messaging Division tgr...@lucent.com -- From: andreas.tho...@toshiba-teg.com [SMTP:andreas.tho...@toshiba-teg.com] Sent: Friday, July 16, 1999 1:15 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: French Customs demand EC Declaration! Dear All, the process to import production machines into the EU seems clear, but have you considered the problem of samples, too ? Usually, samples are used for evaluation purposes and cannot often be marked with CE because the CE compliance tests should be done at least with the final version. Therefore, no CE-Declaration can be issued and the customs may stop these samples at the border (we experienced the same problems with the French customs). How do you handle sample shimpments into the EU ? Kind regards Andreas Thomas Toshiba Europe GmbH - This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc (without the quotes). For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com, jim_bac...@monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators). - This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc (without the quotes). For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com, jim_bac...@monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators). - This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc (without the quotes). For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com, jim_bac...@monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators).
RE: French Customs demand EC Declaration!
Thomas, Read the fine print in the EMC Directive regarding placing [equipment] on the market and putting it into service. You also might want to have your legal representative take a look. I read that providing 'samples' to potential customers is placing [equipment] on the market but not putting it into service. There is another DRAFT directive that seems to take into account equipment still in the final design stages that is sent to potential customers to undergo further testing with the customer's equipment, i.e., sometimes called BETA. However, that is for EMC. The LVD safety directive does not seem to make any provisions for any BETA systems. If anyone has any more insight into this, I would be very much interested in hearing about this. Tania Grant, Lucent Technologies, Octel Messaging Division tgr...@lucent.com -- From: andreas.tho...@toshiba-teg.com [SMTP:andreas.tho...@toshiba-teg.com] Sent: Friday, July 16, 1999 1:15 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: French Customs demand EC Declaration! Dear All, the process to import production machines into the EU seems clear, but have you considered the problem of samples, too ? Usually, samples are used for evaluation purposes and cannot often be marked with CE because the CE compliance tests should be done at least with the final version. Therefore, no CE-Declaration can be issued and the customs may stop these samples at the border (we experienced the same problems with the French customs). How do you handle sample shimpments into the EU ? Kind regards Andreas Thomas Toshiba Europe GmbH - This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc (without the quotes). For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com, jim_bac...@monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators). - This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc (without the quotes). For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com, jim_bac...@monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators).
RE: French Customs demand EC Declaration!
Unfortunately, I don't have the law part of the standards at my desk, but I believe that similar to US law there are exceptions which allow exactly this sort of thing. See section 2.8 in CFR 47 for the times you are allowed to move stuff around without compliance. Pretty much its demo and pre-production equipment that is marked as non-compliant, and clearly identified in the papers that you are not selling it until it is compliant. Certainly, US law doesn't pertain anywhere outside the US, and in some neighbor hoods inside the US, so check into this further, but the laws are somewhat are similar. Your customs broker should be able to help you with the paperwork. Gary -Original Message- From: andreas.tho...@toshiba-teg.com [SMTP:andreas.tho...@toshiba-teg.com] Sent: Friday, July 16, 1999 1:15 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject:Re: French Customs demand EC Declaration! Dear All, the process to import production machines into the EU seems clear, but have you considered the problem of samples, too ? Usually, samples are used for evaluation purposes and cannot often be marked with CE because the CE compliance tests should be done at least with the final version. Therefore, no CE-Declaration can be issued and the customs may stop these samples at the border (we experienced the same problems with the French customs). How do you handle sample shimpments into the EU ? Kind regards Andreas Thomas Toshiba Europe GmbH - This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc (without the quotes). For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com, jim_bac...@monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators). - This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc (without the quotes). For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com, jim_bac...@monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators).
Re: French Customs demand EC Declaration!
Dear All, the process to import production machines into the EU seems clear, but have you considered the problem of samples, too ? Usually, samples are used for evaluation purposes and cannot often be marked with CE because the CE compliance tests should be done at least with the final version. Therefore, no CE-Declaration can be issued and the customs may stop these samples at the border (we experienced the same problems with the French customs). How do you handle sample shimpments into the EU ? Kind regards Andreas Thomas Toshiba Europe GmbH - This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc (without the quotes). For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com, jim_bac...@monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators).
RE: French Customs demand EC Declaration!
To avoid this problem I have our traffic department provide a copy along with the other documentation to the agent doing the importing, and when the equipment arrives they simply bring it along with the other paperwork to clear this stuff from customs. I also have an abbreviated copy of the DoC in the product manuals with directions for obtaining a signed copy if they need it. What I don't know is if they have ever actually needed it, but considering that I haven't had people calling me up and asking me for it I'll claim that it works great. (My life's credo has always been - I don't accept blame but I'm willing to steal credit!) Gary -Original Message- From: geor...@lexmark.com [SMTP:geor...@lexmark.com] Sent: Thursday, July 15, 1999 11:37 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject:French Customs demand EC Declaration! Here's a simple version of my understanding of the EU DoC process. 1 Understand the requirement options of the relevant Directives 22 Test to acceptable requirements (proof of compliance) 33 Issue EU DoC for the product (statement of compliance) 4 Place CE marking on the product 5 Place CE marking on final packaging (the pretty box) 5 Place EU DoC in user's documentation 6 Be prepared to provide copy of signed EU DoC on request 7 7 Be prepared to provide test reports (proof of compliance) e.g. CB Report and EMC Test Reports If products reach EU borders in bulk packaging, or on pallets, and CE marking is not visible, it is reasonable to expect that border customs officials will need to require some documentation on the bulk shipments. Otherwise, they would have to break down the bulk shipment to determine if the product(s) meet the CE marking requirements. The EU DoC is no more proof of compliance than the CE marking. Only the test reports (assuming they are acurate) are proof of compliance. Therefore, it is reasonable that external CE marking on bulk shipments may be required, but the EU DoC would serve no additional purpose. -- Forwarded by George Alspaugh/Lex/Lexmark on 07/15/99 02:23 PM --- peperkins%compuserve@interlock.lexmark.com mailto:peperkins%compuserve@interlock.lexmark.com on 07/15/99 01:35:52 PM Please respond to peperkins%compuserve@interlock.lexmark.com mailto:peperkins%compuserve@interlock.lexmark.com To: harrisk%dscltd@interlock.lexmark.com mailto:harrisk%dscltd@interlock.lexmark.com cc: emc-pstc%majordomo.ieee@interlock.lexmark.com mailto:emc-pstc%majordomo.ieee@interlock.lexmark.com Subject:French Customs demand EC Declaration! PS Net et al, It has been my understanding from the beginning that the MDofC was the proof of conformity in meeting the CE requirements and that the CE marking on the equipment was a convenience, but not the formal proof. The MDofC is the place where the inquirer can see specifically what Directives are claimed and what specific Standards are claimed for conformity. As a consultant in this area I have consistantly encouraged my clients to reproduce the MDofC in the manual rather than provide a separate document with the shipment. This simplifies these types of questions. Further, it is true that outside manufacturers are at a disadvantage in this process because Customs is the primary gatekeeper for this process. Since the internal borders have been taken down, the Euro manufacturers don't have to jump the same hurdles... Guess I've never expected this to be a level playing field. - - - - - Peter E Perkins Principal Product Safety Consultant Tigard, ORe 97281-3427 +1/503/452-1201 phone/fax p.perk...@ieee.org mailto:p.perk...@ieee.org email visit our website: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/peperkins http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/peperkins - This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org mailto:majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc (without the quotes). For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com mailto:ed.pr...@cubic.com , jim_bac...@monarch.com mailto:jim_bac...@monarch.com , ri...@sdd.hp.com mailto:ri...@sdd.hp.com , or roger.volgst...@compaq.com mailto:roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators). - This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc (without the quotes). For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com, jim_bac...@monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or
RE: French Customs demand EC Declaration!
Sorry I don't have a legal type answer for you, although I agree that it is against the spirit of the directive. I just though I would expand the controversy and ask if you know if they are also demanding that declarations for other directives like the LVD are also included with the shipment? Best Regards, Kevin Harris Manager, Approval Services Digital Security Controls 1645 Flint Road Downsview, Ontario CANADA M3J 2J6 Tel +1 416 665 8460 Ext. 2378 Fax +1 416 665 7753 email: harr...@dscltd.com -Original Message- From: roger.vi...@wwgsolutions.com [SMTP:roger.vi...@wwgsolutions.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 1999 11:34 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: French Customs demand EC Declaration! Recently French customs have started to demand that shipments of CE marked electronic products are accompanied by a copy of the EC Declaration of Conformity to the EMC Directive. Companies are having product held up and are being fined. This seems contrary to the spirit of the single market and is NOT envisaged in the EMC Directive, which requires only that the Declaration be held in the EU. It is required by French Law under Bulletin Officiel du Douane no. 6267 of 26 June 1998. This includes a specific law: DA no 98-112 - E/S (P.6112) concerning EMC of electrical and electronic equipment. This includes a section (III - Role du Service) which reckons that any importation is the first placing on the (EU) market of that item and demands that the importer must produce, at the time of importation, the necessary documents, including the EC Declaration of Conformity, in order to support the customs declaration. Production of the document at a later date is not authorised. Because customs inspections are applied only to goods from outside the EU, the problem occurs with products imported from US, etc. Does anyone have experience of this or believe it contravenes any EU laws? Thanks for any help, Roger Viles Group Standards Manager Wavetek Wandel Goltermann - This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc (without the quotes). For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com, jim_bac...@monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators). - This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc (without the quotes). For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com, jim_bac...@monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators).
