Re: Sometimes product safety just isn't enough
I read in !emc-pstc that Andrew Carson acar...@uk.xyratex.com wrote (in 3c1f0c39.e42db...@uk.xyratex.com) about 'Sometimes product safety just isn't enough', on Tue, 18 Dec 2001: Griffins or gryphons Hypo Griffins Hippogryphs, I think. Gryphons have a lion-like body, hippogryphs have a horse-like body. Pegasus Dragons To name but a few ! AFAIK, none of these have ever lived at the eastern end of the Mediterranean. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk After swimming across the Hellespont, I felt like a Hero. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
Re: Sometimes product safety just isn't enough
Griffins Hypo Griffins Pegasus Dragons To name but a few ! John Woodgate wrote: I read in !emc-pstc that oover...@lexmark.com wrote (in 200112171644.LA a08...@interlock2.lexmark.com) about 'Sometimes product safety just isn't enough', on Mon, 17 Dec 2001: There are, however, some winged creatures that walk on all fours that you may eat: those that have jointed legs for hopping on the ground. Of these you may eat any kind of locust, katydid, cricket or grasshopper. But all other winged creatures that have four legs you are to detest. All the creatures mentioned have six legs. What winged creatures have four legs? (Not bats!) ISTR a few moths that have modified front legs, so that they *appear* to have only four. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk After swimming across the Hellespont, I felt like a Hero. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. -- Andrew Carson - Product Safety Engineer, Xyratex, UK Phone: +44 (0)23 9249 6855 Fax: +44 (0)23 9249 6014 --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
Re: Sometimes product safety just isn't enough
robertj wrote: Ever since I saw this, I have been wondering what's going on in the mind of this guy: - doesn't have a clue - can probably get away with this - my tools are in good shape, everything's OK Well, he is working next to a wet bar. Doug McKean --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
Re: Sometimes product safety just isn't enough
I read in !emc-pstc that oover...@lexmark.com wrote (in 200112171644.LA a08...@interlock2.lexmark.com) about 'Sometimes product safety just isn't enough', on Mon, 17 Dec 2001: There are, however, some winged creatures that walk on all fours that you may eat: those that have jointed legs for hopping on the ground. Of these you may eat any kind of locust, katydid, cricket or grasshopper. But all other winged creatures that have four legs you are to detest. All the creatures mentioned have six legs. What winged creatures have four legs? (Not bats!) ISTR a few moths that have modified front legs, so that they *appear* to have only four. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk After swimming across the Hellespont, I felt like a Hero. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
RE: Sometimes product safety just isn't enough
Ever since I saw this, I have been wondering what's going on in the mind of this guy: - doesn't have a clue - can probably get away with this - my tools are in good shape, everything's OK Bob Johnson ITE Safety -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org] On Behalf Of Robert Johnson Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 1:28 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Sometimes product safety just isn't enough I couldn't help passing on this reference to a bit of unforeseeable misuse. http://electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum4/HTML/48.html Bob Johnson
Re: Sometimes product safety just isn't enough
In the spirit of the season: John wore clothing made of camel's hair, with a leather belt around his waist, and he ate locust and wild honey. Matthew 3:4, Mark 1:6 There are, however, some winged creatures that walk on all fours that you may eat: those that have jointed legs for hopping on the ground. Of these you may eat any kind of locust, katydid, cricket or grasshopper. But all other winged creatures that have four legs you are to detest. Leviticus 11:22-23 Ted Rook tedr%crestaudio@interlock.lexmark.com on 12/17/2001 11:07:42 AM Please respond to Ted Rook tedr%crestaudio@interlock.lexmark.com To:emc-pstc%majordomo.ieee@interlock.lexmark.com cc:(bcc: Oscar Overton/Lex/Lexmark) Subject: Re: Sometimes product safety just isn't enough fortunately we are omnivores and while preferring to dine on the upper branches of the food chain tree nothing prevents homo sapiens sapiens from thriving on the lower branches even though they don't look or smell so pretty, everything's OK so long as our internal pathogen and infection defenses are in good order bon appetit :-) Best Regards Ted Rook, Console Engineering, ext 4659 Please note our new location and phone numbers: Crest Audio Inc, 16-00 Pollitt Drive Fair Lawn, NJ 07410 USA 201 475 4600 telephone receptionist, 8.30 - 5 pm EST. 201 475 4659 direct line w/voice mail, 24 hrs. 201 475 4677 fax, 24 hrs. oover...@lexmark.com 17-Dec-01 7:30:45 AM This particular labeling of Nut products is not an isolated event. Pick up viturally any container of mixed nuts and it will have a similar warning. Of course don't start reading too many food labels, it can get really scary. FDA's Food Alergen page is: http://www.fda.gov/ora/compliance_ref/cpg/cpgfod/cpg555-250.htm And you thought product safety standards were convoluted and political driven! We won't discuss the pages that address the standards for a. Insect Filth and Mold . . . contains an average of 1% or more insect infested and/or moldy pieces by weight. or b. Mammalian Excreta . . . contains an average of 1 milligram or more of mammalian excreta per pound. or c. Foreign Matter . . . contains an average of 1% or more pickings and siftings by weight, (What exactly is Foreign Matter?) The following represents the criteria for direct reference seizure: Insect Filth . . . contains an average of 100 or more insect fragments per 25 grams Rodent Filth . . . contains an average of 4 or more rodent hairs per 25 grams. and this is before it gets to the minimum wage food preparation specialist. Do you want fries with that? Robert Macy macy%california@interlock.lexmark.com on 12/14/2001 04:39:16 PM Please respond to Robert Macy macy%california@interlock.lexmark.com To: James Collum james.collum%usa.alcatel@interlock.lexmark.com, emc-pstc%majordomo.ieee@interlock.lexmark.com cc:(bcc: Oscar Overton/Lex/Lexmark) Subject: Re: Sometimes product safety just isn't enough --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
Re: Sometimes product safety just isn't enough
fortunately we are omnivores and while preferring to dine on the upper branches of the food chain tree nothing prevents homo sapiens sapiens from thriving on the lower branches even though they don't look or smell so pretty, everything's OK so long as our internal pathogen and infection defenses are in good order bon appetit :-) Best Regards Ted Rook, Console Engineering, ext 4659 Please note our new location and phone numbers: Crest Audio Inc, 16-00 Pollitt Drive Fair Lawn, NJ 07410 USA 201 475 4600 telephone receptionist, 8.30 - 5 pm EST. 201 475 4659 direct line w/voice mail, 24 hrs. 201 475 4677 fax, 24 hrs. oover...@lexmark.com 17-Dec-01 7:30:45 AM This particular labeling of Nut products is not an isolated event. Pick up viturally any container of mixed nuts and it will have a similar warning. Of course don't start reading too many food labels, it can get really scary. FDA's Food Alergen page is: http://www.fda.gov/ora/compliance_ref/cpg/cpgfod/cpg555-250.htm And you thought product safety standards were convoluted and political driven! We won't discuss the pages that address the standards for a. Insect Filth and Mold . . . contains an average of 1% or more insect infested and/or moldy pieces by weight. or b. Mammalian Excreta . . . contains an average of 1 milligram or more of mammalian excreta per pound. or c. Foreign Matter . . . contains an average of 1% or more pickings and siftings by weight, (What exactly is Foreign Matter?) The following represents the criteria for direct reference seizure: Insect Filth . . . contains an average of 100 or more insect fragments per 25 grams Rodent Filth . . . contains an average of 4 or more rodent hairs per 25 grams. and this is before it gets to the minimum wage food preparation specialist. Do you want fries with that? Robert Macy macy%california@interlock.lexmark.com on 12/14/2001 04:39:16 PM Please respond to Robert Macy macy%california@interlock.lexmark.com To: James Collum james.collum%usa.alcatel@interlock.lexmark.com, emc-pstc%majordomo.ieee@interlock.lexmark.com cc:(bcc: Oscar Overton/Lex/Lexmark) Subject: Re: Sometimes product safety just isn't enough --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
RE: Sometimes product safety just isn't enough
-Original Message- From: James Collum [mailto:james.col...@usa.alcatel.com] Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 1:29 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: Sometimes product safety just isn't enough Following a recent airline flight, I was given a bag of peanuts, marked Peanuts which contained a health warning contains peanuts. I was thinking that in a similar style that maybe electrical products could have an added warning may contain electricity. The may would elude to the connection of a mains cable for mains powered equipment, or even batteries in battery powered equipment. I think the IEC should be prompt to act in this vital area. Following this illogical train of thought, the swimming pool should have a warning contains water and the ladder could have a warning may alter altitude. But on a slightly more serious note (but not much) If I am ever present when someone is about to do something interesting with electricity I always advise that the person about to do the deed make sure to note who present will provide the kiss of life when it all goes pear shaped. It tends to work (although I don't know why, as I think I'm very kissable). Jim Which reminds me of an incident of mis-communication which happened when I arrived home one rainy afternoon. As I parked my car, I observed my neighbor's 11 yo boy climbing to the top of a tree in their yard. The tree was located in the utility easement, and had grown so tall that the branches actually were higher than the three powerlines. (Yes, the 3-wire single phase, 120-0-120 VAC; I just had to add that from another thread. g) As I looked at him, he was reaching over his head, trying to climb past the level of the wires! And he was standing in a damp tree during a light rain. Sometimes you may worry that a sharp warning might cause an accident, but I shouted to him that those wires were dangerous and to not climb any higher. He replied that he was safe because he knew how to climb a tree. (My neighbor, let us say, has raised a crop of dim bulbs.) I shouted to him that both of those wires were hot, that the tree was grounded, and since he was in the wet tree, he was grounded. Most logical. Well, he didn't reply, but sullenly started down the tree. I went inside, but my phone range a couple of minutes later. It was his mother, asking what I had said to her son. When I told her, she laughed and said that her son had complained that nobody but his father could tell him that he was grounded! (Grounded is a state of social restriction used as a punishment by American parents.) Regards, Ed (who has a long history of being grounded) Ed Price ed.pr...@cubic.com Electromagnetic Compatibility Lab Cubic Defense Systems San Diego, CA USA 858-505-2780 (Voice) 858-505-1583 (Fax) Military Avionics EMC Services Is Our Specialty Shake-Bake-Shock - Metrology - Reliability Analysis
Re: Sometimes product safety just isn't enough
This particular labeling of Nut products is not an isolated event. Pick up viturally any container of mixed nuts and it will have a similar warning. Of course don't start reading too many food labels, it can get really scary. FDA's Food Alergen page is: http://www.fda.gov/ora/compliance_ref/cpg/cpgfod/cpg555-250.htm And you thought product safety standards were convoluted and political driven! We won't discuss the pages that address the standards for a. Insect Filth and Mold . . . contains an average of 1% or more insect infested and/or moldy pieces by weight. or b. Mammalian Excreta . . . contains an average of 1 milligram or more of mammalian excreta per pound. or c. Foreign Matter . . . contains an average of 1% or more pickings and siftings by weight, (What exactly is Foreign Matter?) The following represents the criteria for direct reference seizure: Insect Filth . . . contains an average of 100 or more insect fragments per 25 grams Rodent Filth . . . contains an average of 4 or more rodent hairs per 25 grams. and this is before it gets to the minimum wage food preparation specialist. Do you want fries with that? Robert Macy macy%california@interlock.lexmark.com on 12/14/2001 04:39:16 PM Please respond to Robert Macy macy%california@interlock.lexmark.com To: James Collum james.collum%usa.alcatel@interlock.lexmark.com, emc-pstc%majordomo.ieee@interlock.lexmark.com cc:(bcc: Oscar Overton/Lex/Lexmark) Subject: Re: Sometimes product safety just isn't enough In deference to the warning label on the peanuts bag. Some people have life threatening allergies to peanuts and take warnings such as that and warnings on cookies, etc very seriously. But then again, you'd think with the main label Peanuts would be sufficient. Perhaps, someone is making peanuts out of soy beans already. - Robert - Robert A. Macy, PEm...@california.com 408 286 3985 fx 408 297 9121 AJM International Electronics Consultants 619 North First St, San Jose, CA 95112 -Original Message- From: James Collum james.col...@usa.alcatel.com To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org Date: Friday, December 14, 2001 1:57 PM Subject: Re: Sometimes product safety just isn't enough Following a recent airline flight, I was given a bag of peanuts, marked Peanuts which contained a health warning contains peanuts. I was thinking that in a similar style that maybe electrical products could have an added warning may contain electricity. The may would elude to the connection of a mains cable for mains powered equipment, or even batteries in battery powered equipment. I think the IEC should be prompt to act in this vital area. Following this illogical train of thought, the swimming pool should have a warning contains water and the ladder could have a warning may alter altitude. But on a slightly more serious note (but not much) If I am ever present when someone is about to do something interesting with electricity I always advise that the person about to do the deed make sure to note who present will provide the kiss of life when it all goes pear shaped. It tends to work (although I don't know why, as I think I'm very kissable). Jim -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Robert Johnson Sent: woensdag 12 december 2001 19:28 To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Sometimes product safety just isn't enough I couldnââ� â ä¢t help passing on this reference to a bit of unforeseeable misuse.?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office / http://electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum4/HTML/48.html Bob Johnson --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
Re: Sometimes product safety just isn't enough
I read in !emc-pstc that Tania Grant taniagr...@msn.com wrote (in oe105nrrmqyirkou1wl9...@hotmail.com) about 'Sometimes product safety just isn't enough', on Sat, 15 Dec 2001: I see where you have drawn the line! I can just see now the IEC rewriting the definition of users of 60950 equipment as 1) trained servicepersons, 2) fools, and 3) all others. The definition of fools would be mindless persons who ignore all instructions and logic. Safety would be achieved, in addition to the usual compliance, by having users signing a paper when placing an order or purchasing equipment that they will read all instructions and agree to abide by the conditions of use placed on the equipment. This document gets back to the manufacturer who files away this bureaucracy, to be retrieved when a fool tries to sue for hot coffee in their lap, or a tingle when drilling under rafters when standing on an aluminum ladder in the swimming pool. This would take care of the crazies who try to sue for any possible misuse of their brains. I think that if I were marketing a product in USA, I would seriously consider doing just that! And I bet my product-liability insurance company would be very pleased if I did it! Seriously, I am all for protecting the innocent and uneducated user. But the user should also be accountable for responsible use of equipment. The problem is, how does one define that??? I'm not sure that 'responsible' is quite the right word in this context. There is also the question of 'foreseeable misuse'; there is now a requirement in some legislation for manufacturers to take this into account, but I don't know of a definition of it! I doubt if it's practicable to do better than to say, as a pair of formal definitions (which I believe we NEED!): Correct use: Use in accordance with the manufacturers instructions, including the obeying of all 'warning' and 'caution' notices. Foreseeable misuse: Use of, or activity involving, the product which does not violate the manufacturer's instructions, or involve the ignoring of a 'warning' or 'caution' notice, but which is not intended by the manufacturer and may result in damage or injury or both. For example, the replacing of a user-accessible fuse by an incorrect type is, I think, foreseeable misuse, simply because fuse specifications are now so complex for the layman: 'F 1.6 A E 250 V'. Since it's at least exceedingly difficult to ensure continued safety with a 'T 6.3 A L 32 V' fuse in this position (!), I think user-accessible fuses (i.e. no tool required) have to go! -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk After swimming across the Hellespont, I felt like a Hero. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
Re: Sometimes product safety just isn't enough
Hello, John, I see where you have drawn the line! I can just see now the IEC rewriting the definition of users of 60950 equipment as 1) trained servicepersons, 2) fools, and 3) all others. The definition of fools would be mindless persons who ignore all instructions and logic. Safety would be achieved, in addition to the usual compliance, by having users signing a paper when placing an order or purchasing equipment that they will read all instructions and agree to abide by the conditions of use placed on the equipment. This document gets back to the manufacturer who files away this bureaucracy, to be retrieved when a fool tries to sue for hot coffee in their lap, or a tingle when drilling under rafters when standing on an aluminum ladder in the swimming pool. This would take care of the crazies who try to sue for any possible misuse of their brains. Seriously, I am all for protecting the innocent and uneducated user. But the user should also be accountable for responsible use of equipment. The problem is, how does one define that??? taniagr...@msn.com - Original Message - From: John Woodgate Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2001 1:07 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: Sometimes product safety just isn't enough I read in !emc-pstc that Tania Grant taniagr...@msn.com wrote (in oe527cewuohvfufnkig3...@hotmail.com) about 'Sometimes product safety just isn't enough', on Fri, 14 Dec 2001: And we have strayed here from the subject matter (although I don't mind!). Just how much does a product designer and a product safety professional owe to make the product safe under any circumstances? In my estimation, the line has to be drawn somewhere. Do we have to protect the user against obvious sabotage? (What is 'obvious'?) My point was that we, product safety professionals, also have an obligation to educate the user in product safety, not just submit product to bureaucratic agencies for proof of compliance. It is impossible to make anything foolproof, because the Devil keeps making more and more ingenious fools. (Unknown author acknowledged) -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk After swimming across the Hellespont, I felt like a Hero. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
RE: Sometimes product safety just isn't enough
Gotcha! -Original Message- From: Robert Macy [mailto:m...@california.com] Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 4:40 PM To: Pettit, Ghery; James Collum; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: Sometimes product safety just isn't enough AR!! I went there, read down through much, before it soaked in. - Robert - -Original Message- From: Pettit, Ghery ghery.pet...@intel.com To: 'Robert Macy' m...@california.com; James Collum james.col...@usa.alcatel.com; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org Date: Friday, December 14, 2001 4:15 PM Subject: RE: Sometimes product safety just isn't enough Now, you do need to worry about some of these obscure chemicals. There is an entire web page devoted to the hazards of DHMO, di-Hydrogen Monoxide. www.dhmo.org Check this out. It could save someone you love. Ghery Pettit Intel -Original Message- From: Robert Macy [mailto:m...@california.com] Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 1:39 PM To: James Collum; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: Sometimes product safety just isn't enough In deference to the warning label on the peanuts bag. Some people have life threatening allergies to peanuts and take warnings such as that and warnings on cookies, etc very seriously. But then again, you'd think with the main label Peanuts would be sufficient. Perhaps, someone is making peanuts out of soy beans already. - Robert - Robert A. Macy, PEm...@california.com 408 286 3985 fx 408 297 9121 AJM International Electronics Consultants 619 North First St, San Jose, CA 95112 -Original Message- From: James Collum james.col...@usa.alcatel.com To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org Date: Friday, December 14, 2001 1:57 PM Subject: Re: Sometimes product safety just isn't enough Following a recent airline flight, I was given a bag of peanuts, marked Peanuts which contained a health warning contains peanuts. I was thinking that in a similar style that maybe electrical products could have an added warning may contain electricity. The may would elude to the connection of a mains cable for mains powered equipment, or even batteries in battery powered equipment. I think the IEC should be prompt to act in this vital area. Following this illogical train of thought, the swimming pool should have a warning contains water and the ladder could have a warning may alter altitude. But on a slightly more serious note (but not much) If I am ever present when someone is about to do something interesting with electricity I always advise that the person about to do the deed make sure to note who present will provide the kiss of life when it all goes pear shaped. It tends to work (although I don't know why, as I think I'm very kissable). Jim -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Robert Johnson Sent: woensdag 12 december 2001 19:28 To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Sometimes product safety just isn't enough I couldnââ'¬â¢t help passing on this reference to a bit of unforeseeable misuse.?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office / http://electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum4/HTML/48.html Bob Johnson . --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
Re: Sometimes product safety just isn't enough
AR!! I went there, read down through much, before it soaked in. - Robert - -Original Message- From: Pettit, Ghery ghery.pet...@intel.com To: 'Robert Macy' m...@california.com; James Collum james.col...@usa.alcatel.com; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org Date: Friday, December 14, 2001 4:15 PM Subject: RE: Sometimes product safety just isn't enough Now, you do need to worry about some of these obscure chemicals. There is an entire web page devoted to the hazards of DHMO, di-Hydrogen Monoxide. www.dhmo.org Check this out. It could save someone you love. Ghery Pettit Intel -Original Message- From: Robert Macy [mailto:m...@california.com] Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 1:39 PM To: James Collum; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: Sometimes product safety just isn't enough In deference to the warning label on the peanuts bag. Some people have life threatening allergies to peanuts and take warnings such as that and warnings on cookies, etc very seriously. But then again, you'd think with the main label Peanuts would be sufficient. Perhaps, someone is making peanuts out of soy beans already. - Robert - Robert A. Macy, PEm...@california.com 408 286 3985 fx 408 297 9121 AJM International Electronics Consultants 619 North First St, San Jose, CA 95112 -Original Message- From: James Collum james.col...@usa.alcatel.com To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org Date: Friday, December 14, 2001 1:57 PM Subject: Re: Sometimes product safety just isn't enough Following a recent airline flight, I was given a bag of peanuts, marked Peanuts which contained a health warning contains peanuts. I was thinking that in a similar style that maybe electrical products could have an added warning may contain electricity. The may would elude to the connection of a mains cable for mains powered equipment, or even batteries in battery powered equipment. I think the IEC should be prompt to act in this vital area. Following this illogical train of thought, the swimming pool should have a warning contains water and the ladder could have a warning may alter altitude. But on a slightly more serious note (but not much) If I am ever present when someone is about to do something interesting with electricity I always advise that the person about to do the deed make sure to note who present will provide the kiss of life when it all goes pear shaped. It tends to work (although I don't know why, as I think I'm very kissable). Jim -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Robert Johnson Sent: woensdag 12 december 2001 19:28 To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Sometimes product safety just isn't enough I couldnââ'¬â¢t help passing on this reference to a bit of unforeseeable misuse.?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office / http://electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum4/HTML/48.html Bob Johnson . --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
Re: Sometimes product safety just isn't enough
I think it's worth mentioning interpretations of the definition of end user in 950. In my opinion, end users are obviously people who use the equipment and are also not expected to be aware of the hazards. That's why, in my opinion, the thread about safety critical parts was so difficult to pin down. We as safety engineers know some rather obvious hazards which could occur during design, assembly, and use. But, in selling to the general consumer market, the product is being put in the hands of maybe uneducated or non-technical people of a variety of ages. As such, you have to anticipate little to no experience or knowledge. Regards, Doug McKean --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
Re: Sometimes product safety just isn't enough
I've dropped the picture into a Word document and titled it, You Can Design Only So Much Common Sense Into A Product. Then at the bottom, put Hand drill = $35 Metal ladder = $50 Bare feet on metal ladder in pool ... Priceless and posted it outside my cubicle. It's been quite a hit ... Thanks. Regards, Doug McKean --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
RE: Sometimes product safety just isn't enough
Now, you do need to worry about some of these obscure chemicals. There is an entire web page devoted to the hazards of DHMO, di-Hydrogen Monoxide. www.dhmo.org Check this out. It could save someone you love. Ghery Pettit Intel -Original Message- From: Robert Macy [mailto:m...@california.com] Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 1:39 PM To: James Collum; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: Sometimes product safety just isn't enough In deference to the warning label on the peanuts bag. Some people have life threatening allergies to peanuts and take warnings such as that and warnings on cookies, etc very seriously. But then again, you'd think with the main label Peanuts would be sufficient. Perhaps, someone is making peanuts out of soy beans already. - Robert - Robert A. Macy, PEm...@california.com 408 286 3985 fx 408 297 9121 AJM International Electronics Consultants 619 North First St, San Jose, CA 95112 -Original Message- From: James Collum james.col...@usa.alcatel.com To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org Date: Friday, December 14, 2001 1:57 PM Subject: Re: Sometimes product safety just isn't enough Following a recent airline flight, I was given a bag of peanuts, marked Peanuts which contained a health warning contains peanuts. I was thinking that in a similar style that maybe electrical products could have an added warning may contain electricity. The may would elude to the connection of a mains cable for mains powered equipment, or even batteries in battery powered equipment. I think the IEC should be prompt to act in this vital area. Following this illogical train of thought, the swimming pool should have a warning contains water and the ladder could have a warning may alter altitude. But on a slightly more serious note (but not much) If I am ever present when someone is about to do something interesting with electricity I always advise that the person about to do the deed make sure to note who present will provide the kiss of life when it all goes pear shaped. It tends to work (although I don't know why, as I think I'm very kissable). Jim -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Robert Johnson Sent: woensdag 12 december 2001 19:28 To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Sometimes product safety just isn't enough I couldnââ'¬â¢t help passing on this reference to a bit of unforeseeable misuse.?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office / http://electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum4/HTML/48.html Bob Johnson --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
Re: Sometimes product safety just isn't enough
I read in !emc-pstc that Nerad, DarenHS-SNS daren.ne...@hs.utc.com wrote (in 47c2376d5478d4119fa800508be390ee025be...@hsmx53nt.rkd.snds.co m) about 'Sometimes product safety just isn't enough', on Fri, 14 Dec 2001: and that of Wile E. Coyote and his equipment from the ACME (obviously, most of it was not safety approved)) My impression is that it does exactly what it is supposed to, but the user does not follow the instructions. In fact, have you ever seem W E C even read them? (;-) -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk After swimming across the Hellespont, I felt like a Hero. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
Re: Sometimes product safety just isn't enough
In deference to the warning label on the peanuts bag. Some people have life threatening allergies to peanuts and take warnings such as that and warnings on cookies, etc very seriously. But then again, you'd think with the main label Peanuts would be sufficient. Perhaps, someone is making peanuts out of soy beans already. - Robert - Robert A. Macy, PEm...@california.com 408 286 3985 fx 408 297 9121 AJM International Electronics Consultants 619 North First St, San Jose, CA 95112 -Original Message- From: James Collum james.col...@usa.alcatel.com To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org Date: Friday, December 14, 2001 1:57 PM Subject: Re: Sometimes product safety just isn't enough Following a recent airline flight, I was given a bag of peanuts, marked Peanuts which contained a health warning contains peanuts. I was thinking that in a similar style that maybe electrical products could have an added warning may contain electricity. The may would elude to the connection of a mains cable for mains powered equipment, or even batteries in battery powered equipment. I think the IEC should be prompt to act in this vital area. Following this illogical train of thought, the swimming pool should have a warning contains water and the ladder could have a warning may alter altitude. But on a slightly more serious note (but not much) If I am ever present when someone is about to do something interesting with electricity I always advise that the person about to do the deed make sure to note who present will provide the kiss of life when it all goes pear shaped. It tends to work (although I don't know why, as I think I'm very kissable). Jim -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Robert Johnson Sent: woensdag 12 december 2001 19:28 To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Sometimes product safety just isn't enough I couldnââ¬â¢t help passing on this reference to a bit of unforeseeable misuse.?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office / http://electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum4/HTML/48.html Bob Johnson --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
Re: Sometimes product safety just isn't enough
RE: Sometimes product safety just isn't enough
I just checked with my attorneys (the very prestigious firm of Dewey,
Cheetum Howe)... And they figured that he may have instead been listening
to too much Beatles music pretending his fist was a silver hammer and he was
named Maxwell (WHAT? You didn't name your son after a name well known to
electromagic engineers!?!)
Personally, I think that level of violence is better (and that of Wile E.
Coyote and his equipment from the ACME (obviously, most of it was not
safety approved)) than what kids can see today. Take a look at what there
is for video games and the movies and music and... well, I better stop
before I fall over backward foaming at the mouth (a line from another comedy
group, one that brought us blood spurting out in slow motion)!
Daren A. Nerad
EMC Engineer
815.226.6123
-Original Message-
From: Stephen Phillips [mailto:step...@cisco.com]
Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 12:15 PM
To: Tania Grant
Cc: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Re: Sometimes product safety just isn't enough
I hope you didn't let him watch the news either...
he could become a murderer, drunk driver, rapist,
embezzler, adulterer, car thief, or politician... or one
of those guys who goes surfing in a hurricane. Or -
learn by what he saw, not by what he didn't see.
With all due respect,
Moe Howard
Obviously, personal opinions - not those of my
employer (as far as I know anyway).
At 12:56 PM 12/14/2001, Tania Grant wrote:
Gert,
You may be technically correct, but I also believe that we should bring up
citizens to be prudently knowledgeable about electrical hazards. These are
not intuitively obvious. The manufacturer has a responsibility for
designing a safe product. The user has a responsibility for using it
prudently. The manufacturer also has a responsibility for warning against
possible (conceivable) misuse. It is here that the gray area waffles.
Would you countenance your daughter, clad in a bikini and barefoot,
repeating the same actions as in the picture, while you complacently view
this scene from the comforts of a beach chair, beer in hand?
By the way; I found the picture very humorous. However, slapstick humor
and hazards, especially electrical, do not mix. I would not want to defend
this pictorial from any safety perspective. This is a prime candidate for
What's wrong with this picture? to be analyzed by safety professionals
only.
PS: Ages ago the neighbors complained that my pre-kindergarten angel son
was hitting other kids on their heads with his fist. Those who were
brought up on the Three Stooges thought these antics were humorous;-- since
I was not brought up like that, I thought they were just gross. I put a
stop immediately to my son watching Three Stooges re-runs on the TV, a
harmless show from many perspectives. He is now a very civilized adult and
does not hit people over the head with his fists.
taniagr...@msn.com mailto:taniagr...@msn.com
- Original Message -
From: CE-TEST
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 11:57 PM
To: Robert Johnson; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: RE: Sometimes product safety just isn't enough
{ Please read this email with more then average sense of humour , and then :
THINK !)
So, What's Wrong With That,
The guy on the picture (see link below) is protected by 2 layers of safety:
1/ Basic Insulation, rated for the mains voltage PLUS transient levels
2/ Grounding , for in case the basic insulation wears out or fails for
whatever reason (drops in the pool ?)
Many of us on this list are in some way responsible for the safety of their
employers products, or even test houses (like me) !
Do we have that much confidence in our work ?
Are we somewhere concerned the safety regulations are not strict enough ?
Do we, when working with electricity , count for extra layers of safety,
such as not
standing bare foot on an aluminium ladder, in a swimming pool ?
Are we concerned that the safety measures won't suffice for the lifetime of
the equipment ?
This man is doing what we expect our customers to do: have confidence that
products
sold comply with essential safety regulations.
Regards,
Gert Gremmen
ce-test, qualified testing
-Original Message-
From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [
mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]
mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org%5DOn On
mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org%5DOn Behalf Of Robert Johnson
Sent: woensdag 12 december 2001 19:28
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Sometimes product safety just isn't enough
I couldnâEUR(tm)t help passing on this reference to a bit of unforeseeable
misuse.?xml:namespace prefix = o ns =
urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office /
http://electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum4/HTML/48.html
http://electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum4/HTML/48.html
Bob Johnson
RE: Sometimes product safety just isn't enough
My guess is the line is always moving...the pit stops get determined by the
nature of the product, the environment of intended use, laws, ethics,
lawyers, knowledge, safety professionals, cost and schedule. A likely
vehicle towards the education of the end user would be the user
documentation. How well written such items are is one thing, whether they
are read and understood is another. Whether they can account for all forms
of misuse seems unrealistic but a clear and concise explanation of the
inherent hazards (beyond the wording in the usual standards) might be within
reach.
My 2 cents and not that of my employer.
Kaz Gawrzyjal
Dell Computer Corp.
-Original Message-
From: Tania Grant [mailto:taniagr...@msn.com]
Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 12:57 PM
To: Stephen Phillips
Cc: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Re: Sometimes product safety just isn't enough
Stephen (or is it Moe?)
You miss the point. None of the catastrophes you present below are
presented in the news in a humorous (except, perhaps, in the case of
politicians) or positive manner. Children especially, and some adults as
well, will accept things literarily, especially when presented in a funny
manner. If the presentation is gory enough or definitely not positive,
chances are they will not try to emulate.
And we have strayed here from the subject matter (although I don't mind!).
Just how much does a product designer and a product safety professional owe
to make the product safe under any circumstances? In my estimation, the
line has to be drawn somewhere. Do we have to protect the user against
obvious sabotage? (What is 'obvious'?) My point was that we, product
safety professionals, also have an obligation to educate the user in product
safety, not just submit product to bureaucratic agencies for proof of
compliance.
taniagr...@msn.com mailto:taniagr...@msn.com
- Original Message -
From: Stephen Phillips
Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 10:36 AM
To: Tania Grant
Cc: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Re: Sometimes product safety just isn't enough
I hope you didn't let him watch the news either...
he could become a murderer, drunk driver, rapist,
embezzler, adulterer, car thief, or politician... or one
of those guys who goes surfing in a hurricane. Or -
learn by what he saw, not by what he didn't see.
With all due respect,
Moe Howard
Obviously, personal opinions - not those of my
employer (as far as I know anyway).
At 12:56 PM 12/14/2001, Tania Grant wrote:
Gert,
You may be technically correct, but I also believe that we should bring up
citizens to be prudently knowledgeable about electrical hazards. These are
not intuitively obvious. The manufacturer has a responsibility for
designing a safe product. The user has a responsibility for using it
prudently. The manufacturer also has a responsibility for warning against
possible (conceivable) misuse. It is here that the gray area waffles.
Would you countenance your daughter, clad in a bikini and barefoot,
repeating the same actions as in the picture, while you complacently view
this scene from the comforts of a beach chair, beer in hand?
By the way; I found the picture very humorous. However, slapstick humor
and hazards, especially electrical, do not mix. I would not want to defend
this pictorial from any safety perspective. This is a prime candidate for
What's wrong with this picture? to be analyzed by safety professionals
only.
PS: Ages ago the neighbors complained that my pre-kindergarten angel son
was hitting other kids on their heads with his fist. Those who were
brought up on the Three Stooges thought these antics were humorous;-- since
I was not brought up like that, I thought they were just gross. I put a
stop immediately to my son watching Three Stooges re-runs on the TV, a
harmless show from many perspectives. He is now a very civilized adult and
does not hit people over the head with his fists.
taniagr...@msn.com mailto:taniagr...@msn.com
- Original Message -
From: CE-TEST
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 11:57 PM
To: Robert Johnson; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: RE: Sometimes product safety just isn't enough
{ Please read this email with more then average sense of humour , and then :
THINK !)
So, What's Wrong With That,
The guy on the picture (see link below) is protected by 2 layers of safety:
1/ Basic Insulation, rated for the mains voltage PLUS transient levels
2/ Grounding , for in case the basic insulation wears out or fails for
whatever reason (drops in the pool ?)
Many of us on this list are in some way responsible for the safety of their
employers products, or even test houses (like me) !
Do we have that much confidence in our work ?
Are we somewhere concerned the safety regulations are not strict enough ?
Do we, when working with electricity , count for extra layers of safety
Re: Sometimes product safety just isn't enough
Bob, Here you will find a few more surprising (maybe not) misuses. http://www.electrical-contractor.net/Y-Files.htm Let me repeat an invitation to any that would like to participate in our Forums. We would love to have some product safety related individuals involved and perhaps some of our members would be able to answer some questions that you may have. http://www.Electrical-Contractor.net/Forum Bill Addiss At 01:27 PM 12/12/01 -0500, Robert Johnson wrote: I couldn t help passing on this reference to a bit of unforeseeable misuse. http://electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum4/HTML/48.htmlhttp://electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum4/HTML/48.html Bob Johnson Bill Addiss Electrical Safety Forum http://www.Electrical-Safety.com
Re: Sometimes product safety just isn't enough
Stephen (or is it Moe?)
You miss the point. None of the catastrophes you present below are presented
in the news in a humorous (except, perhaps, in the case of politicians) or
positive manner. Children especially, and some adults as well, will accept
things literarily, especially when presented in a funny manner. If the
presentation is gory enough or definitely not positive, chances are they will
not try to emulate.
And we have strayed here from the subject matter (although I don't mind!).
Just how much does a product designer and a product safety professional owe to
make the product safe under any circumstances? In my estimation, the line has
to be drawn somewhere. Do we have to protect the user against obvious
sabotage? (What is 'obvious'?) My point was that we, product safety
professionals, also have an obligation to educate the user in product safety,
not just submit product to bureaucratic agencies for proof of compliance.
taniagr...@msn.com
- Original Message -
From: Stephen Phillips
Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 10:36 AM
To: Tania Grant
Cc: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Re: Sometimes product safety just isn't enough
I hope you didn't let him watch the news either...
he could become a murderer, drunk driver, rapist,
embezzler, adulterer, car thief, or politician... or one
of those guys who goes surfing in a hurricane. Or -
learn by what he saw, not by what he didn't see.
With all due respect,
Moe Howard
Obviously, personal opinions - not those of my
employer (as far as I know anyway).
At 12:56 PM 12/14/2001, Tania Grant wrote:
Gert,
You may be technically correct, but I also believe that we should bring up
citizens to be prudently knowledgeable about electrical hazards. These are
not intuitively obvious. The manufacturer has a responsibility for designing
a safe product. The user has a responsibility for using it prudently. The
manufacturer also has a responsibility for warning against possible
(conceivable) misuse. It is here that the gray area waffles.
Would you countenance your daughter, clad in a bikini and barefoot, repeating
the same actions as in the picture, while you complacently view this scene from
the comforts of a beach chair, beer in hand?
By the way; I found the picture very humorous. However, slapstick humor and
hazards, especially electrical, do not mix. I would not want to defend this
pictorial from any safety perspective. This is a prime candidate for What's
wrong with this picture? to be analyzed by safety professionals only.
PS: Ages ago the neighbors complained that my pre-kindergarten angel son was
hitting other kids on their heads with his fist. Those who were brought up on
the Three Stooges thought these antics were humorous;-- since I was not
brought up like that, I thought they were just gross. I put a stop
immediately to my son watching Three Stooges re-runs on the TV, a harmless show
from many perspectives. He is now a very civilized adult and does not hit
people over the head with his fists.
taniagr...@msn.com
- Original Message -
From: CE-TEST
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 11:57 PM
To: Robert Johnson; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: RE: Sometimes product safety just isn't enough
{ Please read this email with more then average sense of humour , and then :
THINK !)
So, What's Wrong With That,
The guy on the picture (see link below) is protected by 2 layers of safety:
1/ Basic Insulation, rated for the mains voltage PLUS transient levels
2/ Grounding , for in case the basic insulation wears out or fails for whatever
reason (drops in the pool ?)
Many of us on this list are in some way responsible for the safety of their
employers products, or even test houses (like me) !
Do we have that much confidence in our work ?
Are we somewhere concerned the safety regulations are not strict enough ?
Do we, when working with electricity , count for extra layers of safety, such
as not
standing bare foot on an aluminium ladder, in a swimming pool ?
Are we concerned that the safety measures won't suffice for the lifetime of the
equipment ?
This man is doing what we expect our customers to do: have confidence that
products
sold comply with essential safety regulations.
Regards,
Gert Gremmen
ce-test, qualified testing
-Original Message-
From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
[mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Robert Johnson
Sent: woensdag 12 december 2001 19:28
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Sometimes product safety just isn't enough
I couldn’t help passing on this reference to a bit of unforeseeable
misuse.?xml:namespace prefix = o ns =
urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office /
http://electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum4/HTML/48.html
Bob Johnson
Re: Sometimes product safety just isn't enough
I hope you didn't let him watch the news either...
he could become a murderer, drunk driver, rapist,
embezzler, adulterer, car thief, or politician... or one
of those guys who goes surfing in a hurricane. Or -
learn by what he saw, not by what he didn't see.
With all due respect,
Moe Howard
Obviously, personal opinions - not those of my
employer (as far as I know anyway).
At 12:56 PM 12/14/2001, Tania Grant wrote:
Gert,
You may be technically correct, but I also believe that we should bring up
citizens to be prudently knowledgeable about electrical hazards. These
are not intuitively obvious. The manufacturer has a responsibility for
designing a safe product. The user has a responsibility for using it
prudently. The manufacturer also has a responsibility for warning
against possible (conceivable) misuse. It is here that the gray area waffles.
Would you countenance your daughter, clad in a bikini and barefoot,
repeating the same actions as in the picture, while you complacently view
this scene from the comforts of a beach chair, beer in hand?
By the way; I found the picture very humorous. However, slapstick humor
and hazards, especially electrical, do not mix. I would not want to
defend this pictorial from any safety perspective. This is a prime
candidate for What's wrong with this picture? to be analyzed by safety
professionals only.
PS: Ages ago the neighbors complained that my pre-kindergarten angel son
was hitting other kids on their heads with his fist. Those who were
brought up on the Three Stooges thought these antics were
humorous;-- since I was not brought up like that, I thought they were
just gross. I put a stop immediately to my son watching Three Stooges
re-runs on the TV, a harmless show from many perspectives. He is now a
very civilized adult and does not hit people over the head with his fists.
mailto:taniagr...@msn.comtaniagr...@msn.com
- Original Message -
From: CE-TEST
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 11:57 PM
To: Robert Johnson; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: RE: Sometimes product safety just isn't enough
{ Please read this email with more then average sense of humour , and then
: THINK !)
So, What's Wrong With That,
The guy on the picture (see link below) is protected by 2 layers of safety:
1/ Basic Insulation, rated for the mains voltage PLUS transient levels
2/ Grounding , for in case the basic insulation wears out or fails for
whatever reason (drops in the pool ?)
Many of us on this list are in some way responsible for the safety of their
employers products, or even test houses (like me) !
Do we have that much confidence in our work ?
Are we somewhere concerned the safety regulations are not strict enough ?
Do we, when working with electricity , count for extra layers of safety,
such as not
standing bare foot on an aluminium ladder, in a swimming pool ?
Are we concerned that the safety measures won't suffice for the lifetime
of the equipment ?
This man is doing what we expect our customers to do: have confidence that
products
sold comply with essential safety regulations.
Regards,
Gert Gremmen
ce-test, qualified testing
-Original Message-
From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
[mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Robert Johnson
Sent: woensdag 12 december 2001 19:28
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Sometimes product safety just isn't enough
I couldnât help passing on this reference to a bit of unforeseeable
misuse.?xml:namespace prefix = o ns =
urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office /
http://electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum4/HTML/48.htmlhttp://electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum4/HTML/48.html
Bob Johnson
Re: Sometimes product safety just isn't enough
Gert,
You may be technically correct, but I also believe that we should bring up
citizens to be prudently knowledgeable about electrical hazards. These are
not intuitively obvious. The manufacturer has a responsibility for designing
a safe product. The user has a responsibility for using it prudently. The
manufacturer also has a responsibility for warning against possible
(conceivable) misuse. It is here that the gray area waffles.
Would you countenance your daughter, clad in a bikini and barefoot, repeating
the same actions as in the picture, while you complacently view this scene from
the comforts of a beach chair, beer in hand?
By the way; I found the picture very humorous. However, slapstick humor and
hazards, especially electrical, do not mix. I would not want to defend this
pictorial from any safety perspective. This is a prime candidate for What's
wrong with this picture? to be analyzed by safety professionals only.
PS: Ages ago the neighbors complained that my pre-kindergarten angel son was
hitting other kids on their heads with his fist. Those who were brought up on
the Three Stooges thought these antics were humorous;-- since I was not
brought up like that, I thought they were just gross. I put a stop
immediately to my son watching Three Stooges re-runs on the TV, a harmless show
from many perspectives. He is now a very civilized adult and does not hit
people over the head with his fists.
taniagr...@msn.com
- Original Message -
From: CE-TEST
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 11:57 PM
To: Robert Johnson; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: RE: Sometimes product safety just isn't enough
{ Please read this email with more then average sense of humour , and then :
THINK !)
So, What's Wrong With That,
The guy on the picture (see link below) is protected by 2 layers of safety:
1/ Basic Insulation, rated for the mains voltage PLUS transient levels
2/ Grounding , for in case the basic insulation wears out or fails for whatever
reason (drops in the pool ?)
Many of us on this list are in some way responsible for the safety of their
employers products, or even test houses (like me) !
Do we have that much confidence in our work ?
Are we somewhere concerned the safety regulations are not strict enough ?
Do we, when working with electricity , count for extra layers of safety, such
as not
standing bare foot on an aluminium ladder, in a swimming pool ?
Are we concerned that the safety measures won't suffice for the lifetime of the
equipment ?
This man is doing what we expect our customers to do: have confidence that
products
sold comply with essential safety regulations.
Regards,
Gert Gremmen
ce-test, qualified testing
-Original Message-
From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
[mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Robert Johnson
Sent: woensdag 12 december 2001 19:28
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Sometimes product safety just isn't enough
I couldn’t help passing on this reference to a bit of unforeseeable misuse.
http://electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum4/HTML/48.html
Bob Johnson
RE: Sometimes product safety just isn't enough
{ Please read this email with more then average sense of humour , and then :
THINK !)
So, What's Wrong With That,
The guy on the picture (see link below) is protected by 2 layers of safety:
1/ Basic Insulation, rated for the mains voltage PLUS transient levels
2/ Grounding , for in case the basic insulation wears out or fails for
whatever reason (drops in the pool ?)
Many of us on this list are in some way responsible for the safety of their
employers products, or even test houses (like me) !
Do we have that much confidence in our work ?
Are we somewhere concerned the safety regulations are not strict enough ?
Do we, when working with electricity , count for extra layers of safety,
such as not
standing bare foot on an aluminium ladder, in a swimming pool ?
Are we concerned that the safety measures won't suffice for the lifetime of
the equipment ?
This man is doing what we expect our customers to do: have confidence that
products
sold comply with essential safety regulations.
Regards,
Gert Gremmen
ce-test, qualified testing
-Original Message-
From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
[mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Robert Johnson
Sent: woensdag 12 december 2001 19:28
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Sometimes product safety just isn't enough
I couldnt help passing on this reference to a bit of unforeseeable
misuse.
http://electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum4/HTML/48.html
Bob Johnson
Re: Sometimes product safety just isn't enough
Now we should understand why some agencies have these crazy instructions that overstate the obvious-- do not use while in the bathtub taniagr...@msn.com - Original Message - From: Robert Johnson Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 11:11 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Sometimes product safety just isn't enough I couldn’t help passing on this reference to a bit of unforeseeable misuse. http://electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum4/HTML/48.html Bob Johnson
RE: Sometimes product safety just isn't enough
That looked like one of those old 'Mall' hand drills with the metal body. They were known for excessive AC current leakage. Dont ask how I know... Yowwp! At least the guy's eyes will be in good condition for organ donation.. Kyle -Original Message- From: Robert Johnson [mailto:john...@itesafety.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 12:28 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Sometimes product safety just isn't enough I couldn't help passing on this reference to a bit of unforeseeable misuse. http://electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum4/HTML/48.html Bob Johnson
Sometimes product safety just isn't enough
I couldn't help passing on this reference to a bit of unforeseeable misuse. http://electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum4/HTML/48.html Bob Johnson
