Re: [PSES] Basic Schematic Creation Software

[Brian Kunde]

Wow, I really like Dia.  It has some nice features. Looks to be a handy
program for a lot of different applications. I'll have to play around with
this a bit.

Thanks.
The Other Brian

On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 3:15 PM Patrick Lawler  wrote:

> Hi Brian,
>
> I wasn't aware of the 'Dia' software until Brent mentioned it.  While
> looking through the developers site, I saw there are additional symbol
> packs already designed that may meet your needs:
> http://dia-installer.de/shapes/index.html.en
>
> Regards,
> Patrick Lawler
>
> On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 8:53 AM Brian Kunde  wrote:
> >
> >
> > I am in need of a simple program for creating simple schematics of
> Safety Circuits in a variety of States.  I envision something that I can
> easily insert door switches, relays, button switches, e-stops, fuses,
> circuit breakers, etc..  It would be nice if once laid out, I can simply
> click to change the state of a switch or relay to represent different
> states of a Safety Function.  And then save it off in .pdf format.
> >
> > Does anyone know of some software that will do this for a low cost or
> maybe Free?  This is something we will use only a few times a year.
> >
> > Thanks to all in advance for any information.
> >
> > Regards,
> > The Other Brian
> >
> >
> > -
> > 
> >
> > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society
> emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail
> to emc-p...@ieee.org
> >
> > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
> >
> > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site
> at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in
> well-used formats), large files, etc.
> >
> > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
> > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to
> unsubscribe)
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> >
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> > Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org
> > David Heald dhe...@gmail.com
>

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Re: [PSES] Basic Schematic Creation Software

[Matthew Wilson | GBE]

The Draw component of Libre Office https://www.libreoffice.org/ has symbol 
extensions for schematics here https://sschmidhuber.github.io/LibreSymbols/

Draw lets you make rubber band connections between elements, handy for 
reorganising a drawing as it is made without having to redraw all the 
connection lines.

HTH.

Matthew Wilson,
GB Electronics (UK) Ltd.


Matthew Wilson
Technical Director
GB Electronics (UK) Ltd
matthew.wil...@gbelectronics.com
https://gbelectronics.uk
+44 (0)1903 244 500
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From: Brian Kunde 
Sent: 20 May 2021 16:53
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Basic Schematic Creation Software


I am in need of a simple program for creating simple schematics of Safety 
Circuits in a variety of States.  I envision something that I can easily insert 
door switches, relays, button switches, e-stops, fuses, circuit breakers, etc.. 
 It would be nice if once laid out, I can simply click to change the state of a 
switch or relay to represent different states of a Safety Function.  And then 
save it off in .pdf format.

Does anyone know of some software that will do this for a low cost or maybe 
Free?  This is something we will use only a few times a year.

Thanks to all in advance for any information.

Regards,
The Other Brian


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--

Re: [PSES] Basic Schematic Creation Software

[Brian Kunde]

Thanks. I'll check them out.  If I find one that does what I want I'll let
everyone know.
The Other Brian

On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 2:05 PM Brent DeWitt  wrote:

> Manny brings up a great option.  Even if you have no need for actual
> circuit simulation.  I can recommend SiMterix, LTSpice and MicroSim as
> totally free programs that will allow you to create schematics, however,
> I'm not so sure that any of those offer open/closed switch symbols.
>
> From a purely graphic approach,"DIA" is a free alternative to Visio and
> allows structured drawings with some pre-defined electrical elements:
>
>
>
> Fare well,
> Brent DeWitt, AB1LF
>
> On 5/20/2021 1:42 PM, Manny Barron wrote:
>
> Hi Brian,
>
> I have found Spice to be useful for scenarios as you describe, in my case
> for EMC/EMI analysis. The program is relatively easy to use and changing
> circuit elements and re-running an analysis is simple in my opinion.
>
> There are several variations of Spice on the market today, but I'm not
> sure if you'll find a free version. Ten years ago I purchased T-Spice (I
> think that's the name) for about $500 and it worked great for current
> in-rush analysis I had to do.
>
> Recommend doing some web searches on Spice to see what turns up, maybe
> you'll find what you're looking for, and who knows, maybe even freeware.
>
> Regards,
>
> Manny Barron
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 8:53 AM Brian Kunde  wrote:
>
>>
>> I am in need of a simple program for creating simple schematics of Safety
>> Circuits in a variety of States.  I envision something that I can easily
>> insert door switches, relays, button switches, e-stops, fuses, circuit
>> breakers, etc..  It would be nice if once laid out, I can simply click to
>> change the state of a switch or relay to represent different states of a
>> Safety Function.  And then save it off in .pdf format.
>>
>> Does anyone know of some software that will do this for a low cost or
>> maybe Free?  This is something we will use only a few times a year.
>>
>> Thanks to all in advance for any information.
>>
>> Regards,
>> The Other Brian
>>
>>
>> -
>> 
>>
>> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
>> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
>> emc-p...@ieee.org
>>
>> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
>> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
>>
>> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site
>> at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in
>> well-used formats), large files, etc.
>>
>> Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
>> Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to
>> unsubscribe) 
>> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
>>
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>> Scott Douglas sdoug...@ieee.org
>> Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org
>>
>> For policy questions, send mail to:
>> Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org
>> David Heald dhe...@gmail.com
>>
> -
> 
>
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
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> emc-p...@ieee.org>
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>
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in
> well-used formats), large files, etc.
>
> Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
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> -
> 
>
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> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in
> well-used formats), large files, etc.
>
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>

Re: [PSES] Basic Schematic Creation Software

[Patrick Lawler]

Hi Brian,

I wasn't aware of the 'Dia' software until Brent mentioned it.  While
looking through the developers site, I saw there are additional symbol
packs already designed that may meet your needs:
http://dia-installer.de/shapes/index.html.en

Regards,
Patrick Lawler

On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 8:53 AM Brian Kunde  wrote:
>
>
> I am in need of a simple program for creating simple schematics of Safety 
> Circuits in a variety of States.  I envision something that I can easily 
> insert door switches, relays, button switches, e-stops, fuses, circuit 
> breakers, etc..  It would be nice if once laid out, I can simply click to 
> change the state of a switch or relay to represent different states of a 
> Safety Function.  And then save it off in .pdf format.
>
> Does anyone know of some software that will do this for a low cost or maybe 
> Free?  This is something we will use only a few times a year.
>
> Thanks to all in advance for any information.
>
> Regards,
> The Other Brian
>
>
> -
> 
>
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
> emc-p...@ieee.org
>
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
>
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
> formats), large files, etc.
>
> Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
> Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to 
> unsubscribe)
> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
>
> For help, send mail to the list administrators:
> Scott Douglas sdoug...@ieee.org
> Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org
>
> For policy questions, send mail to:
> Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org
> David Heald dhe...@gmail.com

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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
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Re: [PSES] Basic Schematic Creation Software

[Brent DeWitt]

Manny brings up a great option.  Even if you have no need for actual 
circuit simulation.  I can recommend SiMterix, LTSpice and MicroSim as 
totally free programs that will allow you to create schematics, however, 
I'm not so sure that any of those offer open/closed switch symbols.


From a purely graphic approach,"DIA" is a free alternative to Visio and 
allows structured drawings with some pre-defined electrical elements:




Fare well,
Brent DeWitt, AB1LF

On 5/20/2021 1:42 PM, Manny Barron wrote:

Hi Brian,

I have found Spice to be useful for scenarios as you describe, in my 
case for EMC/EMI analysis. The program is relatively easy to use and 
changing circuit elements and re-running an analysis is simple in my 
opinion.


There are several variations of Spice on the market today, but I'm not 
sure if you'll find a free version. Ten years ago I purchased T-Spice 
(I think that's the name) for about $500 and it worked great for 
current in-rush analysis I had to do.


Recommend doing some web searches on Spice to see what turns up, maybe 
you'll find what you're looking for, and who knows, maybe even freeware.


Regards,

Manny Barron




On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 8:53 AM Brian Kunde > wrote:



I am in need of a simple program for creating simple schematics of
Safety Circuits in a variety of States.  I envision something that
I can easily insert door switches, relays, button switches,
e-stops, fuses, circuit breakers, etc..  It would be nice if once
laid out, I can simply click to change the state of a switch or
relay to represent different states of a Safety Function.  And
then save it off in .pdf format.

Does anyone know of some software that will do this for a low cost
or maybe Free?  This is something we will use only a few times a
year.

Thanks to all in advance for any information.

Regards,
The Other Brian


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 can be used for graphics
(in well-used formats), large files, etc.

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site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ 
 can be used for graphics (in 
well-used formats), large files, etc.


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list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to 

Re: [PSES] Basic Schematic Creation Software

[Manny Barron]

Hi Brian,

I have found Spice to be useful for scenarios as you describe, in my case
for EMC/EMI analysis. The program is relatively easy to use and changing
circuit elements and re-running an analysis is simple in my opinion.

There are several variations of Spice on the market today, but I'm not sure
if you'll find a free version. Ten years ago I purchased T-Spice (I think
that's the name) for about $500 and it worked great for current in-rush
analysis I had to do.

Recommend doing some web searches on Spice to see what turns up, maybe
you'll find what you're looking for, and who knows, maybe even freeware.

Regards,

Manny Barron




On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 8:53 AM Brian Kunde  wrote:

>
> I am in need of a simple program for creating simple schematics of Safety
> Circuits in a variety of States.  I envision something that I can easily
> insert door switches, relays, button switches, e-stops, fuses, circuit
> breakers, etc..  It would be nice if once laid out, I can simply click to
> change the state of a switch or relay to represent different states of a
> Safety Function.  And then save it off in .pdf format.
>
> Does anyone know of some software that will do this for a low cost or
> maybe Free?  This is something we will use only a few times a year.
>
> Thanks to all in advance for any information.
>
> Regards,
> The Other Brian
>
>
> -
> 
>
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
> emc-p...@ieee.org
>
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
>
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in
> well-used formats), large files, etc.
>
> Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
> Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to
> unsubscribe) 
> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
>
> For help, send mail to the list administrators:
> Scott Douglas sdoug...@ieee.org
> Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org
>
> For policy questions, send mail to:
> Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org
> David Heald dhe...@gmail.com
>

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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
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For help, send mail to the list administrators:
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[PSES] Basic Schematic Creation Software

[Brian Kunde]

I am in need of a simple program for creating simple schematics of Safety
Circuits in a variety of States.  I envision something that I can easily
insert door switches, relays, button switches, e-stops, fuses, circuit
breakers, etc..  It would be nice if once laid out, I can simply click to
change the state of a switch or relay to represent different states of a
Safety Function.  And then save it off in .pdf format.

Does anyone know of some software that will do this for a low cost or maybe
Free?  This is something we will use only a few times a year.

Thanks to all in advance for any information.

Regards,
The Other Brian

-

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discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

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Scott Douglas 
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For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

[PSES] ESD network schematic

[Richard Georgerian]

Thanks to everyone with the their comments.

 

The schematic was submitted by a customer to inquire if a specific ESD gun
had such design characteristics. The only thing that I can confirm is that
the discharge network of 250 ohms / 400 pF. Since the discharge networks can
be made of any value, that was the easy part. The not so easy part was the
rest of the component values.

 

I did do my due diligence is scouring the Internet for any type of clues.
There were a few ESD papers on ESD waveform simulations whereby the
author(s) characterized the ESD gun with component values for the discharge
network, ESD gun, ESD body, ESD tip, return cable and any parasitics. Then
they would run the simulation for the ESD waveform; and by the changing the
values (ohms, inductance and/or capacitance) they would try to create an ESD
pulse that matches the ESD standard.

 

I was hoping that someone in the group would recognize the schematic or
something similar, going back to when maybe ESD was first being thought of
and designed for. The way the components were drawn reminded of me the
1960's and 1970's.

 

Once again, thanks to those who took the time and effort to figure out the
circuit.

 

Thank-you,

 

Richard Georgerian

Applications engineer

 

From: owner-emc-p...@listserv.ieee.org  On
Behalf Of Ken Javor
Sent: Monday, February 18, 2019 2:16 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] ESD network schematic

 

I see what you mean. The "gun" has no "trigger."  As I noted below,
MIL-STD-331 required was an air discharge, but with a specific target in
mind and if the target could not be reached by air discharge alone, a
"salient" was used as a guide, like they use a whisker to guide a simulated
lighting strike to the desired point on the test sample.  But the point
remains that rise time was not of interest in MIL-STD-331B; only the total
power it could delver to a specified load.

Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261



  _  

From: "doug emcesd.com" mailto:d...@emcesd.com> >
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2019 20:29:09 +
To: Ken Javor mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com> >, "emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org
<mailto:emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org> " mailto:emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org> >
Conversation: [PSES] ESD network schematic
Subject: Re: [PSES] ESD network schematic

Hi Ken,

You had made the note that contact discharge was used in the MIL test, but
the circuit presented and all stds back then were only air discharge that I
am aware of.

"so there the risetime doesn't matter and it is a contact discharge."

I may be misinterpreting what you mean by contact discharge. I am thinking
of the modern type using a vacuum relay.

Doug
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org <mailto:d...@dsmith.org> 
Website: http://dsmith.org

  _  

From: Ken Javor mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com> >
Sent: Monday, February 18, 2019 12:22
To: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org <mailto:emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org> 
Subject: Re: [PSES] ESD network schematic 
 
Doug,

I don't understand this:

"Ken, the circuit posted does not contain any method for contact discharge."

MIL-STD-331B prefers air discharge when the discharge target can be attained
(like a connector pin). If the target cannot be acquired via air discharge,
then what they call a "salient" can be attached to the target that makes
direct contact with the ESD gun tip.  The only requirement on the salient is
that it itself is immune to ESD damage and it doesn't compromise the ability
of the gun to deliver the required percentage of total stored potential (in
gun charging cap) to specified loads.

Only a 100 MHz BW o'scope is required; this requirement is not about
risetime; only about total power delivered.

BTW, MIL-STD-331B is dated 1989; it supersedes MIL-STD-1399A, dated 1976. I
don't have "A", but it includes ESD.   I don't know the date of original
release, and whether that includes ESD.

Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261



  _  

From: "doug emcesd.com" mailto:d...@emcesd.com> >
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2019 18:23:18 +
To: Ken Javor mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com> >, "emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org
<mailto:emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org> " mailto:emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org> >
Conversation: [PSES] ESD network schematic
Subject: Re: [PSES] ESD network schematic

Ken, the circuit posted does not contain any method for contact discharge.

We tested to 20+ kV for commercial products in the 1970s when I was at Bell
Labs using a circuit similar to the one posted in this thread. I remember
that lab built simulator and used it many times then.

We also had home built lightning simulators we used long before the IEC or
others got into that act for our own internal lightning standards. The Bell
System was dealing with lightning well over a hundred years ago, probably
before anyon

Re: [PSES] ESD network schematic

[Ken Javor]

I see what you mean. The ³gun² has no ³trigger.²  As I noted below,
MIL-STD-331 required was an air discharge, but with a specific target in
mind and if the target could not be reached by air discharge alone, a
³salient² was used as a guide, like they use a whisker to guide a simulated
lighting strike to the desired point on the test sample.  But the point
remains that rise time was not of interest in MIL-STD-331B; only the total
power it could delver to a specified load.

Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261



From: "doug emcesd.com" 
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2019 20:29:09 +
To: Ken Javor , "emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org"

Conversation: [PSES] ESD network schematic
Subject: Re: [PSES] ESD network schematic

Hi Ken,

You had made the note that contact discharge was used in the MIL test, but
the circuit presented and all stds back then were only air discharge that I
am aware of.

³so there the risetime doesn't matter and it is a contact discharge.²

I may be misinterpreting what you mean by contact discharge. I am thinking
of the modern type using a vacuum relay.

Doug
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org
Website: http://dsmith.org

From: Ken Javor 
Sent: Monday, February 18, 2019 12:22
To: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org
Subject: Re: [PSES] ESD network schematic
 
Doug,

I don¹t understand this:

³Ken, the circuit posted does not contain any method for contact discharge.²

MIL-STD-331B prefers air discharge when the discharge target can be attained
(like a connector pin). If the target cannot be acquired via air discharge,
then what they call a ³salient² can be attached to the target that makes
direct contact with the ESD gun tip.  The only requirement on the salient is
that it itself is immune to ESD damage and it doesn't compromise the ability
of the gun to deliver the required percentage of total stored potential (in
gun charging cap) to specified loads.

Only a 100 MHz BW o¹scope is required; this requirement is not about
risetime; only about total power delivered.

BTW, MIL-STD-331B is dated 1989; it supersedes MIL-STD-1399A, dated 1976. I
don¹t have ³A², but it includes ESD.   I don¹t know the date of original
release, and whether that includes ESD.

Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261



From: "doug emcesd.com" 
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2019 18:23:18 +
To: Ken Javor , "emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org"

Conversation: [PSES] ESD network schematic
Subject: Re: [PSES] ESD network schematic

Ken, the circuit posted does not contain any method for contact discharge.

We tested to 20+ kV for commercial products in the 1970s when I was at Bell
Labs using a circuit similar to the one posted in this thread. I remember
that lab built simulator and used it many times then.

We also had home built lightning simulators we used long before the IEC or
others got into that act for our own internal lightning standards. The Bell
System was dealing with lightning well over a hundred years ago, probably
before anyone else except possibly 1800s telegraph companies. That is too
far back for me.

Full scale ESD testing was certainly around at these high voltages by the
time Touch Tone phones appeared. It was this research at Bell Labs that lead
to the HBM model of ESD. We discovered that that model accurately predicted
field hard failures of Touch Tone phones. Current HMM simulators are much
more stress than our research at Bell Labs showed was necessary, at least
for electronic circuits at the time, which were very susceptible.

Doug
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org
Website: http://dsmith.org

From: Ken Javor 
Sent: Monday, February 18, 2019 09:32
To: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org
Subject: Re: [PSES] ESD network schematic
 
Doug may be correct, but that 25 kV sounds like MIL-STD-331, and that is a
test of electro-explosive devices, particularly the fuses that light them,
so there the risetime doesn't matter and it is a contact discharge.

The problem is, my copies only go back to ­331B dated 1989, and from there
to the present day it is 500 pF and 500 ohms, and none of the parasitic
control in the drawing in this post. I was unsuccessful in going back
further.

Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261



From: "doug emcesd.com" 
Reply-To: "doug emcesd.com" 
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2019 06:17:26 +
To: 
Conversation: [PSES] ESD network schematic
Subject: Re: [PSES] ESD network schematic

It is obviously jistvair discharge only. I suspect this is from the 70s,
maybe earlier. The output rise time will be slow further indicating a very
early design when they thought ESD had a ten ns risetime.

Doug
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org
Website: http://dsmith.org

From: Richard Georgerian 
Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2019 20:11
To: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org
Subject: [PSES] ESD network schematic
 
Greeting colleagues,
 
I am trying to find out what standard or do

Re: [PSES] ESD network schematic

[doug emcesd.com]

Ken, the circuit posted does not contain any method for contact discharge.

We tested to 20+ kV for commercial products in the 1970s when I was at Bell 
Labs using a circuit similar to the one posted in this thread. I remember that 
lab built simulator and used it many times then.

We also had home built lightning simulators we used long before the IEC or 
others got into that act for our own internal lightning standards. The Bell 
System was dealing with lightning well over a hundred years ago, probably 
before anyone else except possibly 1800s telegraph companies. That is too far 
back for me.

Full scale ESD testing was certainly around at these high voltages by the time 
Touch Tone phones appeared. It was this research at Bell Labs that lead to the 
HBM model of ESD. We discovered that that model accurately predicted field hard 
failures of Touch Tone phones. Current HMM simulators are much more stress than 
our research at Bell Labs showed was necessary, at least for electronic 
circuits at the time, which were very susceptible.

Doug
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org
Website: http://dsmith.org

From: Ken Javor 
Sent: Monday, February 18, 2019 09:32
To: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org
Subject: Re: [PSES] ESD network schematic

Doug may be correct, but that 25 kV sounds like MIL-STD-331, and that is a test 
of electro-explosive devices, particularly the fuses that light them, so there 
the risetime doesn't matter and it is a contact discharge.

The problem is, my copies only go back to –331B dated 1989, and from there to 
the present day it is 500 pF and 500 ohms, and none of the parasitic control in 
the drawing in this post. I was unsuccessful in going back further.

Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261



From: "doug emcesd.com" 
Reply-To: "doug emcesd.com" 
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2019 06:17:26 +
To: 
Conversation: [PSES] ESD network schematic
Subject: Re: [PSES] ESD network schematic

It is obviously jistvair discharge only. I suspect this is from the 70s, maybe 
earlier. The output rise time will be slow further indicating a very early 
design when they thought ESD had a ten ns risetime.

Doug
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org
Website: http://dsmith.org

From: Richard Georgerian 
Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2019 20:11
To: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org
Subject: [PSES] ESD network schematic

Greeting colleagues,

I am trying to find out what standard or document the below ESD discharge 
network/ESD gun circuit comes from. It does not appear to come from either IEC 
61000-4-2 or the MIL Standard.
The Rs and Cs are the discharge network for a specific ESD waveform. The LS 
looks like the internal inductance of the ESD gun; the CH looks like the 
capacitance (maybe the parasitic capacitance of the ESD gun). The LH looks like 
the inductance of the ESD tip and the RH looks like the limiting resistor that 
is part of the ESD tip circuit.
I cannot put a date as to when this schematic was made, so it could be 
something recent or from many years ago.

[cid:364284_574616]

Thank-you,

Richard Georgerian
Applications Engineer

-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to 
unsubscribe)<http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html><http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html>
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher 
David Heald 
-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to 
unsubscribe)<http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html><http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html>
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrator

Re: [PSES] ESD network schematic

[doug emcesd.com]

Hi Ken,

You had made the note that contact discharge was used in the MIL test, but the 
circuit presented and all stds back then were only air discharge that I am 
aware of.

“so there the risetime doesn't matter and it is a contact discharge.”

I may be misinterpreting what you mean by contact discharge. I am thinking of 
the modern type using a vacuum relay.

Doug
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org
Website: http://dsmith.org

From: Ken Javor 
Sent: Monday, February 18, 2019 12:22
To: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org
Subject: Re: [PSES] ESD network schematic

Doug,

I don’t understand this:

“Ken, the circuit posted does not contain any method for contact discharge.”

MIL-STD-331B prefers air discharge when the discharge target can be attained 
(like a connector pin). If the target cannot be acquired via air discharge, 
then what they call a “salient” can be attached to the target that makes direct 
contact with the ESD gun tip.  The only requirement on the salient is that it 
itself is immune to ESD damage and it doesn't compromise the ability of the gun 
to deliver the required percentage of total stored potential (in gun charging 
cap) to specified loads.

Only a 100 MHz BW o’scope is required; this requirement is not about risetime; 
only about total power delivered.

BTW, MIL-STD-331B is dated 1989; it supersedes MIL-STD-1399A, dated 1976. I 
don’t have “A”, but it includes ESD.   I don’t know the date of original 
release, and whether that includes ESD.

Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261



From: "doug emcesd.com" 
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2019 18:23:18 +
To: Ken Javor , "emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org" 

Conversation: [PSES] ESD network schematic
Subject: Re: [PSES] ESD network schematic

Ken, the circuit posted does not contain any method for contact discharge.

We tested to 20+ kV for commercial products in the 1970s when I was at Bell 
Labs using a circuit similar to the one posted in this thread. I remember that 
lab built simulator and used it many times then.

We also had home built lightning simulators we used long before the IEC or 
others got into that act for our own internal lightning standards. The Bell 
System was dealing with lightning well over a hundred years ago, probably 
before anyone else except possibly 1800s telegraph companies. That is too far 
back for me.

Full scale ESD testing was certainly around at these high voltages by the time 
Touch Tone phones appeared. It was this research at Bell Labs that lead to the 
HBM model of ESD. We discovered that that model accurately predicted field hard 
failures of Touch Tone phones. Current HMM simulators are much more stress than 
our research at Bell Labs showed was necessary, at least for electronic 
circuits at the time, which were very susceptible.

Doug
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org
Website: http://dsmith.org

From: Ken Javor 
Sent: Monday, February 18, 2019 09:32
To: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org
Subject: Re: [PSES] ESD network schematic

Doug may be correct, but that 25 kV sounds like MIL-STD-331, and that is a test 
of electro-explosive devices, particularly the fuses that light them, so there 
the risetime doesn't matter and it is a contact discharge.

The problem is, my copies only go back to –331B dated 1989, and from there to 
the present day it is 500 pF and 500 ohms, and none of the parasitic control in 
the drawing in this post. I was unsuccessful in going back further.

Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261



From: "doug emcesd.com" 
Reply-To: "doug emcesd.com" 
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2019 06:17:26 +0000
To: 
Conversation: [PSES] ESD network schematic
Subject: Re: [PSES] ESD network schematic

It is obviously jistvair discharge only. I suspect this is from the 70s, maybe 
earlier. The output rise time will be slow further indicating a very early 
design when they thought ESD had a ten ns risetime.

Doug
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org
Website: http://dsmith.org

From: Richard Georgerian 
Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2019 20:11
To: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org
Subject: [PSES] ESD network schematic

Greeting colleagues,

I am trying to find out what standard or document the below ESD discharge 
network/ESD gun circuit comes from. It does not appear to come from either IEC 
61000-4-2 or the MIL Standard.
The Rs and Cs are the discharge network for a specific ESD waveform. The LS 
looks like the internal inductance of the ESD gun; the CH looks like the 
capacitance (maybe the parasitic capacitance of the ESD gun). The LH looks like 
the inductance of the ESD tip and the RH looks like the limiting resistor that 
is part of the ESD tip circuit.
I cannot put a date as to when this schematic was made, 

Re: [PSES] ESD network schematic

[Ken Javor]

Doug,

I don¹t understand this:

³Ken, the circuit posted does not contain any method for contact discharge.²

MIL-STD-331B prefers air discharge when the discharge target can be attained
(like a connector pin). If the target cannot be acquired via air discharge,
then what they call a ³salient² can be attached to the target that makes
direct contact with the ESD gun tip.  The only requirement on the salient is
that it itself is immune to ESD damage and it doesn't compromise the ability
of the gun to deliver the required percentage of total stored potential (in
gun charging cap) to specified loads.

Only a 100 MHz BW o¹scope is required; this requirement is not about
risetime; only about total power delivered.

BTW, MIL-STD-331B is dated 1989; it supersedes MIL-STD-1399A, dated 1976. I
don¹t have ³A², but it includes ESD.   I don¹t know the date of original
release, and whether that includes ESD.

Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261



From: "doug emcesd.com" 
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2019 18:23:18 +
To: Ken Javor , "emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org"

Conversation: [PSES] ESD network schematic
Subject: Re: [PSES] ESD network schematic

Ken, the circuit posted does not contain any method for contact discharge.

We tested to 20+ kV for commercial products in the 1970s when I was at Bell
Labs using a circuit similar to the one posted in this thread. I remember
that lab built simulator and used it many times then.

We also had home built lightning simulators we used long before the IEC or
others got into that act for our own internal lightning standards. The Bell
System was dealing with lightning well over a hundred years ago, probably
before anyone else except possibly 1800s telegraph companies. That is too
far back for me.

Full scale ESD testing was certainly around at these high voltages by the
time Touch Tone phones appeared. It was this research at Bell Labs that lead
to the HBM model of ESD. We discovered that that model accurately predicted
field hard failures of Touch Tone phones. Current HMM simulators are much
more stress than our research at Bell Labs showed was necessary, at least
for electronic circuits at the time, which were very susceptible.

Doug
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org
Website: http://dsmith.org

From: Ken Javor 
Sent: Monday, February 18, 2019 09:32
To: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org
Subject: Re: [PSES] ESD network schematic
 
Doug may be correct, but that 25 kV sounds like MIL-STD-331, and that is a
test of electro-explosive devices, particularly the fuses that light them,
so there the risetime doesn't matter and it is a contact discharge.

The problem is, my copies only go back to ­331B dated 1989, and from there
to the present day it is 500 pF and 500 ohms, and none of the parasitic
control in the drawing in this post. I was unsuccessful in going back
further.

Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261



From: "doug emcesd.com" 
Reply-To: "doug emcesd.com" 
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2019 06:17:26 +0000
To: 
Conversation: [PSES] ESD network schematic
Subject: Re: [PSES] ESD network schematic

It is obviously jistvair discharge only. I suspect this is from the 70s,
maybe earlier. The output rise time will be slow further indicating a very
early design when they thought ESD had a ten ns risetime.

Doug
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org
Website: http://dsmith.org

From: Richard Georgerian 
Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2019 20:11
To: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org
Subject: [PSES] ESD network schematic
 
Greeting colleagues,
 
I am trying to find out what standard or document the below ESD discharge
network/ESD gun circuit comes from. It does not appear to come from either
IEC 61000-4-2 or the MIL Standard.
The Rs and Cs are the discharge network for a specific ESD waveform. The LS
looks like the internal inductance of the ESD gun; the CH looks like the
capacitance (maybe the parasitic capacitance of the ESD gun). The LH looks
like the inductance of the ESD tip and the RH looks like the limiting
resistor that is part of the ESD tip circuit.
I cannot put a date as to when this schematic was made, so it could be
something recent or from many years ago.
 

 
Thank-you,
 
Richard Georgerian
Applications Engineer
 
-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in
well-used formats), large files, etc.

Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to
unsubscribe)<http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html>
List rules: http://www.iee

Re: [PSES] ESD network schematic

[Ken Javor]

Doug may be correct, but that 25 kV sounds like MIL-STD-331, and that is a
test of electro-explosive devices, particularly the fuses that light them,
so there the risetime doesn't matter and it is a contact discharge.

The problem is, my copies only go back to ­331B dated 1989, and from there
to the present day it is 500 pF and 500 ohms, and none of the parasitic
control in the drawing in this post. I was unsuccessful in going back
further.

Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261



From: "doug emcesd.com" 
Reply-To: "doug emcesd.com" 
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2019 06:17:26 +
To: 
Conversation: [PSES] ESD network schematic
Subject: Re: [PSES] ESD network schematic

It is obviously jistvair discharge only. I suspect this is from the 70s,
maybe earlier. The output rise time will be slow further indicating a very
early design when they thought ESD had a ten ns risetime.

Doug
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org
Website: http://dsmith.org

From: Richard Georgerian 
Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2019 20:11
To: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org
Subject: [PSES] ESD network schematic
 
Greeting colleagues,
 
I am trying to find out what standard or document the below ESD discharge
network/ESD gun circuit comes from. It does not appear to come from either
IEC 61000-4-2 or the MIL Standard.
The Rs and Cs are the discharge network for a specific ESD waveform. The LS
looks like the internal inductance of the ESD gun; the CH looks like the
capacitance (maybe the parasitic capacitance of the ESD gun). The LH looks
like the inductance of the ESD tip and the RH looks like the limiting
resistor that is part of the ESD tip circuit.
I cannot put a date as to when this schematic was made, so it could be
something recent or from many years ago.
 

 
Thank-you,
 
Richard Georgerian
Applications Engineer
 
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Re: [PSES] ESD network schematic

[Grasso, Charles]

Hi Richard – Where did you find the circuit you posted?

There are three different models used for ESD  - the human body model (HBM)
the charge device model (CDM), and the machine model (MM) and … the circuit
you posted doesn’t look like anything I have seen!!  It could be a “fitted” 
circuit that is:
a circuit derived from a waveform?

Thanks!

Charles Grasso
W: 303-706-5467

From: Richard Georgerian [mailto:richa...@mesanetworks.net]
Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2019 9:10 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] ESD network schematic


 This message originated outside of DISH and was sent by: 
owner-emc-p...@listserv.ieee.org<mailto:owner-emc-p...@listserv.ieee.org>
Greeting colleagues,

I am trying to find out what standard or document the below ESD discharge 
network/ESD gun circuit comes from. It does not appear to come from either IEC 
61000-4-2 or the MIL Standard.
The Rs and Cs are the discharge network for a specific ESD waveform. The LS 
looks like the internal inductance of the ESD gun; the CH looks like the 
capacitance (maybe the parasitic capacitance of the ESD gun). The LH looks like 
the inductance of the ESD tip and the RH looks like the limiting resistor that 
is part of the ESD tip circuit.
I cannot put a date as to when this schematic was made, so it could be 
something recent or from many years ago.

[cid:image001.png@01D4C766.FC66BC90]

Thank-you,

Richard Georgerian
Applications Engineer

-


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Re: [PSES] ESD network schematic

[Patrick]

As my son says...
"...  but Dad, that was back in the 1900's..."

:)

-Patrick (Resident Old Guy !!)


On Sun, Feb 17, 2019 at 11:32 PM doug emcesd.com  wrote:

> It is obviously jistvair discharge only. I suspect this is from the 70s,
> maybe earlier. The output rise time will be slow further indicating a very
> early design when they thought ESD had a ten ns risetime.
>
> Doug
> Sent from my iPhone
> IPhone: 408-858-4528
> Office: 702-570-6108
> Email: d...@dsmith.org
> Website: http://dsmith.org
> --
> *From:* Richard Georgerian 
> *Sent:* Sunday, February 17, 2019 20:11
> *To:* emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org
> *Subject:* [PSES] ESD network schematic
>
>
> Greeting colleagues,
>
>
>
> I am trying to find out what standard or document the below ESD discharge
> network/ESD gun circuit comes from. It does not appear to come from either
> IEC 61000-4-2 or the MIL Standard.
>
> The Rs and Cs are the discharge network for a specific ESD waveform. The
> LS looks like the internal inductance of the ESD gun; the CH looks like the
> capacitance (maybe the parasitic capacitance of the ESD gun). The LH looks
> like the inductance of the ESD tip and the RH looks like the limiting
> resistor that is part of the ESD tip circuit.
>
> I cannot put a date as to when this schematic was made, so it could be
> something recent or from many years ago.
>
>
>
>
>
> Thank-you,
>
>
>
> Richard Georgerian
>
> Applications Engineer
>
>
> -
> 
>
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <
> emc-p...@ieee.org>
>
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
>
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in
> well-used formats), large files, etc.
>
> Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
> Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to
> unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html>
> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
>
> For help, send mail to the list administrators:
> Scott Douglas 
> Mike Cantwell 
>
> For policy questions, send mail to:
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> David Heald 
> -
> 
>
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
> emc-p...@ieee.org
>
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
>
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in
> well-used formats), large files, etc.
>
> Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
> Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to
> unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html>
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>
-- 
//
Patrick

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Re: [PSES] ESD network schematic

[doug emcesd.com]

It is obviously jistvair discharge only. I suspect this is from the 70s, maybe 
earlier. The output rise time will be slow further indicating a very early 
design when they thought ESD had a ten ns risetime.

Doug
Sent from my iPhone
IPhone: 408-858-4528
Office: 702-570-6108
Email: d...@dsmith.org
Website: http://dsmith.org

From: Richard Georgerian 
Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2019 20:11
To: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org
Subject: [PSES] ESD network schematic

Greeting colleagues,

I am trying to find out what standard or document the below ESD discharge 
network/ESD gun circuit comes from. It does not appear to come from either IEC 
61000-4-2 or the MIL Standard.
The Rs and Cs are the discharge network for a specific ESD waveform. The LS 
looks like the internal inductance of the ESD gun; the CH looks like the 
capacitance (maybe the parasitic capacitance of the ESD gun). The LH looks like 
the inductance of the ESD tip and the RH looks like the limiting resistor that 
is part of the ESD tip circuit.
I cannot put a date as to when this schematic was made, so it could be 
something recent or from many years ago.

[cid:image001.png@01D4C702.4E9E3480]

Thank-you,

Richard Georgerian
Applications Engineer

-


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[PSES] ESD network schematic

[Richard Georgerian]

Greeting colleagues,

 

I am trying to find out what standard or document the below ESD discharge 
network/ESD gun circuit comes from. It does not appear to come from either IEC 
61000-4-2 or the MIL Standard.

The Rs and Cs are the discharge network for a specific ESD waveform. The LS 
looks like the internal inductance of the ESD gun; the CH looks like the 
capacitance (maybe the parasitic capacitance of the ESD gun). The LH looks like 
the inductance of the ESD tip and the RH looks like the limiting resistor that 
is part of the ESD tip circuit.

I cannot put a date as to when this schematic was made, so it could be 
something recent or from many years ago.

 



 

Thank-you,

 

Richard Georgerian

Applications Engineer

 


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Re: Schwarzbeck LISN schematic

[emc-p...@ieee.org]

What spec(s) is it built to support? All specs define LISNs for verification
measurements.
 
Ken Javor

Phone: (256) 650-5261





From: Ken MacGrath khcmacgr...@aol.com
List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 14:39:55 -0500
To: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: Schwarzbeck LISN schematic

Hello All,
 
Does anyone in the group have the schematics for a Schwarzbeck NNLK 8121 LISN
they could send me?  My LISN got damaged (several fried components) so I'm
trying to repair it but I can't determine the value of some of the components. 

Thanks!
 
 
Ken 
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Schwarzbeck LISN schematic

[emc-p...@ieee.org]

Hello All,
 
Does anyone in the group have the schematics for a Schwarzbeck NNLK 8121 LISN
they could send me?  My LISN got damaged (several fried components) so I'm
trying to repair it but I can't determine the value of some of the components. 

Thanks!
 
 
Ken 
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Re: Schematic and Layout Packages (a little off topic)

[emc-p...@ieee.org]

Chris,
 
Apologies for taking so long to answer this e-mail, but I got so buried last
week I didn't have much of a chance to check this list.
 
Regarding Schematic  Layout packages, I don't know much about Proteus.
However, John Woodgate was pretty accurate when he said that for schematic 
layout packages, you either swear by them or swear at them. 
 For either package, you should call customer support  find what the
support contracts are, both for on-line support  for software patches, and
what their plans are for future upgrades. 
 A couple years ago, some of the engineers and PCB layout people I work
with expressed concern about the consolidation happening in the schematic 
layout software market. One of the mid-range ($5k-$10k per software seat)
companies had gotten bought up by one of the higher-end companies ($20k per
seat or something like that) and the higher-end company had immediately
announced they would continue to sell the mid-range product, but there would
be no further releases or major bug fixes planned for it. And I know one
design  manufacturing company that quit using a particular layout package
because the support contract was getting almost as expensive as the software
package itself.
 As Robert Macy mentioned, dongles can be a major headache. In the late
90s, they were typically made for use on the parallel port, and they could
interfere with bi-directional communication with a printer connected to that
same parallel port. In recent years, hardware dongles and newer versions of
Windows sometimes don't play well because newer versions of Windows don't let
software access the I/O ports as directly as before, so if some other process
starts using the I/O port or I/O modules, the program looking for the dongle
can't see the dongle and goes into error mode. 
 
Regarding MathCAD software,  I haven't used packages like that since I was in
college in the mid-90s. For classes, our professors often asked us to use
MatLab, which I came to view as being like C; it is very powerful, but the
user interface is fairly unintuitive, so it is best to have a tutorial or
how-to book for reference when you do the first few problems.
 A friend of mine had a copy of MathCAD, which was much nicer to use for
graphs, equations  presentations, but was not at all suited for recursive
loops or anything like that. Someone told me Maple was somewhere in between
MathCAD  MatLab, but I never had a chance to use it.
 I looked at MathCAD recently, and as Jacob Schanker pointed out, it has
become expensive and bloated since the Win 3.11 days. 
 If you want a graphical interface, MathCAD seems to be the best bet. If
you can get by with a not-so-helpful interface, MatLAB or Octave might be your
best bets. Some of the engineers I work with really like Octave, and it seems
to work pretty well for them.
 
Hope that helps!
-Camille Good
Portland, Oregon

Chris Maxwell cb...@ntcnet.com wrote:

All,
 
I have recently been looking at schematic capture and layout packages.  Two
that are in use around me are Orcad and Proteus.  
 
Orcad schem capture and layout is about $6000, while Proteus schem capture and
layout (without autoroute) are about$1800.  Has anybody worked with both
enough to provide a quick comparison?  Will one or the other pigeon hole me?
 
I have also been looking into MathCAD or MathCAD-like software.  Are there any
other choices other than MathCAD that anyone would recommend?
 
Thanks,
 
Chris Maxwell
 
-  This
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Re: Schematic and Layout Packages (a little off topic)

[emc-p...@ieee.org]

In message 004201c68a28$5a440550$67aaae41@CTAJS, Chris Maxwell 
cb...@ntcnet.com writes
 have recently been looking at schematic capture and layout packages.  
Two that are in use around me are Orcad and Proteus. 
 
Orcad schem capture and layout is about $6000, while Proteus schem 
capture and layout (without autoroute) are about$1800.  Has anybody 
worked with both enough to provide a quick comparison? 

I haven't, but I believe you either swear by either of them, or swear at 
it.

Will one or the other pigeon hole me?

Either; both have a cult following.

Somewhere on the web is a list of free and low-cost packages with a 
brief review of each. Sorry I don't have the URL, but all of the listed 
ones work reasonably well.
 
I have also been looking into MathCAD or MathCAD-like software.  Are 
there any other choices other than MathCAD that anyone would recommend?

I don't think there is now anything like Mathcad which is equal or less 
than that in price. There were some in the Windows 3.11 era, but they 
seem not to have been maintained.
-- 
John Woodgate

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Re: Schematic and Layout Packages (a little off topic)

[emc-p...@ieee.org]

AAA! brain dead this morning.

You MEANT MathCAD, not MathLAB
...nevermind

 - Robert -

On Wed, 7 Jun 2006 07:48:53 -0400
 Chris Maxwell cb...@ntcnet.com wrote:
 I have also been looking into MathCAD or MathCAD-like
 software.  Are there any other choices other than MathCAD
 that anyone would recommend?

-

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Re: Schematic and Layout Packages (a little off topic)

[emc-p...@ieee.org]

Chris,

Can't be much help selecting schematic entry.  However,
after watching many people's frustration at dongles...the
dongle interfering with other software and the effect a
dead [and unsupported] dongle has on software that still
could work; I'd lean toward non-dongle type software.  

Regarding MathCAD alternatives...
I highly recommend octave, which is designed to be 100%
compatible [not exactly true, but pretty close].  It is
distributed under GNU GPL, free, with open source, so you
can modify and add to your heart's content.  Comes in Linux
flavor, if you wish. The Window's binary version is around
10MB, self installs fast, without insinuating itself
throughout your system.  The author, John Eaton, and many
helpful people are active in the private support group, So
if you got a question, you have an answer less than an
hour.  

Also recommend Sc1.exe as the text editor, not Notepad, or
the other one.  

 - Robert -

On Wed, 7 Jun 2006 07:48:53 -0400
 Chris Maxwell cb...@ntcnet.com wrote:
 All,
 
 I have recently been looking at schematic capture and
 layout packages.  Two that are in use around me are Orcad
 and Proteus.  
 
 Orcad schem capture and layout is about $6000, while
 Proteus schem capture and layout (without autoroute) are
 about$1800.  Has anybody worked with both enough to
 provide a quick comparison?  Will one or the other
 pigeon hole me?
 
 I have also been looking into MathCAD or MathCAD-like
 software.  Are there any other choices other than MathCAD
 that anyone would recommend?
 
 Thanks,
 
 Chris Maxwell
 

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Schematic and Layout Packages (a little off topic)

[emc-p...@ieee.org]

All,
 
I have recently been looking at schematic capture and layout packages.  Two
that are in use around me are Orcad and Proteus.  
 
Orcad schem capture and layout is about $6000, while Proteus schem capture and
layout (without autoroute) are about$1800.  Has anybody worked with both
enough to provide a quick comparison?  Will one or the other pigeon hole me?
 
I have also been looking into MathCAD or MathCAD-like software.  Are there any
other choices other than MathCAD that anyone would recommend?
 
Thanks,
 
Chris Maxwell
 
-  This
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Re: Schematic and Layout Packages (a little off topic)

[emc-p...@ieee.org]

Chris:
 
Why not test-drive the packages? 
 
Orcad is available in a demo or student version. I use it with my students in
a transmission line course, and the student version is more than adequate
there. For circuits, there is a limit of about 60 nodes, but you should be
able to get a feel for it. Full manuals are included on the CD.
 
I don't know about Proteus, but you'd think they would also have something.
 
Some companies allow you to try the full software for a 30 day trial. It takes
me more than 30 days just to learn how to use new software effectively.
 
I've used MathCAD since Version One point something. It has gotten bloated and
expensive, but very useful. I suggest looking for an earlier version on the
used SW market, or getting an Academic Version (about $130 USD) at a college
or University or online at any of many academic software sellers. You'll need
a faculty or student ID to do this. A cheap way to get an ID is to sign up for
one course, get your ID, buy your software, and then drop the course when you
can still get some tuition refund. Or better, actually take the course.
 
Your imagination can think of other ways, I am sure.
 
Regards,
 
Jacob Z. Schanker, P.E.
j.schan...@ieee.org

 

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RE: EMC and Safety Schematic and PCB Reviews

[Ron Pickard]

Hi Alex,

You may very well need to create your own checklist as only you know your 
employer's products well
enough to know what needs to be looked at during the design cycle. You may have 
to look for severity
impacts on EMC (emissions and immunity), safety and telecom for product 
design/redesign and revision
activities.

If you honestly don't know what to look for in such a checklist, I would 
recommend attending EMC and
Safety seminars. There are also some textbooks on the subjects. These can be 
very enlightening. From
what you learn there, you will be better able to know what to look for and from 
that you will be
better able to generate such a checklist.

Also, you might want to entertain the notion of generating a general design 
spec which would detail
compliance design requirements for your employer's products (the designers 
should then work from the
spec). Once these requirements are documented in such a spec, generating a 
checklist from the spec
should be quite easy.

I hope this helps.

Best regards,

Ron Pickard
rpick...@hypercom.com







djumbdenstock@tycoint.c 

om To: 
emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org, alex.mcn...@ingenicofortronic.com   
Sent by:   cc:  

owner-emc-pstc@majordomSubject: RE: EMC and 
Safety Schematic and PCB Reviews
o.ieee.org  





03/07/02 12:55 PM   

Please respond to   

djumbdenstock   









Here's one we use for general guidance.  It doesn't cover every situation,
but it points us in the right direction.

Best regards,

Don

 EMC Check List.DOC

 --
 From:   Alex McNeil[SMTP:alex.mcn...@ingenicofortronic.com]
 Reply To:Alex McNeil
 Sent:   Wednesday, March 06, 2002 11:38 AM
 To: 'emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org'
 Subject: EMC and Safety Schematic and PCB Reviews


 Hi Guys,

 Sorry I should have mentioned SCHEMATIC and PCB LAYOUT review:

 Does any kind person have such a thing as an EMC Schematic and PCB Design
 Check list?
 Does any kind person have such a thing as a Safety Schematic and PCB
 Design
 Check list?

 Kind Regards
 Alex McNeil
 Principal Engineer
 Tel: +44 (0)131 479 8375
 Fax: +44 (0)131 479 8321
 email: alex.mcn...@ingenicofortronic.com

   -Original Message-
  From:  Alex McNeil
  Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2002 2:46 PM
  To:   emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
  Subject:   EMC and Safety PCB Reviews
 
  Hi Guys,
 
  I am being asked to review PCB's for EMC (and Safety) acceptance. I was
  going to try and collate a check list then I thought of this wonderful
  forum!!
 
  Does any kind person have such a thing as an EMC PCB Design Check list?
  Does any kind person have such a thing as an Safety PCB Design Check
 list?
 
  Kind Regards
  Alex McNeil
  Principal Engineer
  Tel: +44 (0)131 479 8375
  Fax: +44 (0)131 479 8321
  email: alex.mcn...@ingenicofortronic.com
 

 ---
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 Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list.

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 http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/
 Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list

EMC and Safety Schematic and PCB Reviews

[Alex McNeil]

Hi Guys,

Sorry I should have mentioned SCHEMATIC and PCB LAYOUT review: 

Does any kind person have such a thing as an EMC Schematic and PCB Design
Check list? 
Does any kind person have such a thing as a Safety Schematic and PCB Design
Check list?

Kind Regards
Alex McNeil
Principal Engineer
Tel: +44 (0)131 479 8375
Fax: +44 (0)131 479 8321
email: alex.mcn...@ingenicofortronic.com

  -Original Message-
 From: Alex McNeil  
 Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2002 2:46 PM
 To:   emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
 Subject:  EMC and Safety PCB Reviews
 
 Hi Guys,
 
 I am being asked to review PCB's for EMC (and Safety) acceptance. I was
 going to try and collate a check list then I thought of this wonderful
 forum!!
 
 Does any kind person have such a thing as an EMC PCB Design Check list? 
 Does any kind person have such a thing as an Safety PCB Design Check list?
 
 Kind Regards
 Alex McNeil
 Principal Engineer
 Tel: +44 (0)131 479 8375
 Fax: +44 (0)131 479 8321
 email: alex.mcn...@ingenicofortronic.com
 

---
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Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list.

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HP board schematic

[Price, Ed]

Hi Listmembers:


Would anyone be able to help me get a copy of the schematic for a plug-in RF
amplifier board for an HP-8662 RF Synthesized Signal Generator? The board is
designated the A4A1 Output Amplifier, there is an internal sticker that
reads HP-08662-67008, and there is a section of etching that reads
HP-08662-60126 C-2211-10.

I have tried my internal files, but this board isn't shown on the 8662
manual that I was able to find.

Thanks,

Ed


Ed Price
ed.pr...@cubic.com
Electromagnetic Compatibility Lab
Cubic Defense Systems
San Diego, CA  USA
858-505-2780  (Voice)
858-505-1583  (Fax)
Military  Avionics EMC Services Is Our Specialty
Shake-Bake-Shock - Metrology - Reliability Analysis


---
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schematic

[Ralph Cameron]

Low level halogen and Xenon lighting make use of electronic transformers. 
Does anyone have a typical circuit of one of these transformers?

I attempt to do suppression of devices such as these that generate considerable 
broad band noise at broadcast as well as short wave frequencies and need to 
know what is causing the conducted distortion to feed back to the powerline. 

I am told by producers of these noise generators that most producers use the 
the same or a similar circuit. I believe SCRs or unstabilized switch mode 
supplies are the culprits. 

Any help would be appreciated. 

Ralph Cameron
EMC Consultant for Suppression of Consumer Electronics
( after sale)

Re: LISN schematic for student in Belgium

[Ken Javor]

Whoops!  Looks like I forgot to attach the schematic.  Here goes again.

--
From: Ken Javor ken.ja...@emccompliance.com
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Cc: wde...@vt4.net
Subject: LISN schematic for student in Belgium
Date: Fri, Dec 3, 1999, 11:18 AM



 CISPR has updated the LISN to include a bleeder resistor between the EMI
 port and ground.  It does NOT affect  LISN impedance in any way.  I have
 updated the previously drawn schematic to reflect the new LISN
 configuration.

 Also, if the addressee wishes to build one of these, he should be familiar
 with good rf design techniques. My experience in designing a LISN for
 commercial sale was that it took a little finessing.

 -
 This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list.
 To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org
 with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc (without the
 quotes).  For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com,
 jim_bac...@monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or
 roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators).

 


CISPR 11 LISN schematic.doc
Description: MS-Word document