[PSES] AW: [PSES] Friday Question - table of electrochemical potentials

[Dürrer Bernd]

Hi Douglas,

I am only aware of Table J.1 in IEC 60950-1. Are there any other IEC standards 
that reference the same or a different table?

I do not know its source for sure, but the values given in this table seem to 
match those from the anodic index cited in Wikipedia 
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_corrosion#Anodic_index), which gives 
the following reference: Wheeler, Gerson J., The design of electronic 
equipment: a manual for production and manufacturing, Prentice-Hall, 1972.

Can anybody confirm that this is the source and happens to have a copy of the 
original publication?

Kind regards,

Bernd


Von: Douglas E Powell 
Gesendet: Freitag, 5. Februar 2021 19:05
An: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Betreff: [PSES] Friday Question - table of electrochemical potentials

For years, I've used the same or similar table for dissimilar metals and the 
possibility of corrosion for "pairs of common metals in use". This table shows 
up in many IEC based standards and no one I know questions the validity. I got 
curious as to the source and why this particular list of "common metals" was 
chosen. Going as far back as the early 1990s I cannot find any attribution to 
the source material.

Can anyone provide some background on this?

Thanks, Doug

--
Douglas E Powell
Laporte, Colorado USA
doug...@gmail.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01
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[PSES] UKCA Questions

[Brian Kunde]

I have a few questions regarding UKCA.

1. Machinery Regulation 2008-1597 pretty much says the same thing and the
EU Machinery Directive.  Section 1.7.4.2c) requires the DoC to be included
in the Manual (Instructions), OR "a document setting out the contents of
the EC declaration of conformity, showing the particulars of the machinery,
not necessarily including the serial number and the signature".

Our company has always struggled with this requirement for if we put the
DoC in the manual, it takes forever to change it when the information on
the DoC changes.  SO, currently we publish information that satisfies the
"document setting out the contents of the " part of the requirement.

Are we going to have to do the same thing for the UKCA?   I was really
hoping that the EU would drop this as a requirement in future versions of
the Machinery Directive.


2.  North Ireland:   So, if we have a low risk product that does not
require validation from a Notified Body, then we can continue to sell and
ship into North Ireland using the CE Marking and EU-DoC?  Is this correct?
 We do not have to apply the North Ireland UKNI marking. Correct?


Thanks to all for your help.

The Other Brian

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Re: [PSES] [PSES] Friday Question - table of electrochemical potentials

[Ken Wyatt]

Leave it to our resident historian to pull off the Reference Handbook for Radio 
Engineers, 2nd edition, 1946 from his library!

___

I'm here to help you succeed! Feel free to call or email with any questions 
related to EMC or EMI troubleshooting - at no obligation. I'm always happy to 
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Woodland Park, CO 80863

Phone: (719) 310-5418

Web Site  | Blog 
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Subscribe to Newsletter 
Connect with me on LinkedIn 

> On Feb 8, 2021, at 9:20 AM, Ken Javor  wrote:
> 
> Reference Handbook for Radio Engineers, 2nd edition, 1946


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Re: [PSES] Friday Question - table of electrochemical potentials

[Douglas E Powell]

Hello Bernd,

Yes the table does show up in several standards and IEC 60950-1 was one of
the first where I saw it.  I have notes going back to the early 1990s from
the time when the standard was known simply as IEC 950. Since then it was
renamed IEC 60950 and later IEC 60950-1.  Now it has been replaced by IEC
62368-1 and the table is still included in Annex N. It is basically
unchanged, I might add.

Before I knew of this table, the only resource I had available was a table
for metals ranking them from most anodic to most cathodic and it was
published by a naval guide book on corrosion. The ranking system was less
than ideal since it was most likely based on empirical data and nothing was
about the specific potentials for corrosion. Even so, at the time it was
the best resource I had.

I attempted to learn more by using the various tables in chemistry
handbooks including topics such as 1st, 2nd, and 3rd ionisation potentials.
However, chemists have a propensity for diving deeply into science instead
of simply listing compatibility of metals in a table.  It is my belief that
the simplicity of the IEC table is the main reason it has survived for so
long.  And of course, one of the issues I have is that the 950 list of
metals in that table does not nearly cover all the possible alloyed metals
in use today.  In addition, it makes no attempt to address the possibility
of electroplated coatings to minimize corrosion. For example with Zinc or
Nickel.

All the best, and have a great week,

-Doug


Douglas E Powell
Laporte, Colorado USA
doug...@gmail.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01



On Mon, Feb 8, 2021 at 2:59 AM Dürrer Bernd  wrote:

> Hi Douglas,
>
>
>
> I am only aware of Table J.1 in IEC 60950-1. Are there any other IEC
> standards that reference the same or a different table?
>
>
>
> I do not know its source for sure, but the values given in this table seem
> to match those from the anodic index cited in Wikipedia (
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_corrosion#Anodic_index), which
> gives the following reference: Wheeler, Gerson J., The design of electronic
> equipment: a manual for production and manufacturing, Prentice-Hall, 1972.
>
>
>
> Can anybody confirm that this is the source and happens to have a copy of
> the original publication?
>
>
>
> Kind regards,
>
>
>
> Bernd
>
>
>
>
>
> *Von:* Douglas E Powell 
> *Gesendet:* Freitag, 5. Februar 2021 19:05
> *An:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> *Betreff:* [PSES] Friday Question - table of electrochemical potentials
>
>
>
> For years, I've used the same or similar table for dissimilar metals and
> the possibility of corrosion for "pairs of common metals in use". This
> table shows up in many IEC based standards and no one I know questions the
> validity. I got curious as to the source and why this particular list of
> "common metals" was chosen. Going as far back as the early 1990s I cannot
> find any attribution to the source material.
>
>
>
> Can anyone provide some background on this?
>
>
>
> Thanks, Doug
>
>
>
> --
>
> Douglas E Powell
>
> Laporte, Colorado USA
>
> doug...@gmail.com
> http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01
> 
>
> -
> 
>
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <
> emc-p...@ieee.org>
>
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
> 
>
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/
> 
> can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc.
>
> Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
> 

[PSES] Testing to IEC 60601-1-2

[David Shidlovsky]

Hello
IEC 60601-1-2 allows testing of conducted and radiated emissions to CISPR 11; 
CISPR 14-11; CISPR 32.
Concerning the use of CISPR 32:
According to Clause 7.1.1 General:
"Unless otherwise specified herein, ME 
EQUIPMENT and ME SYSTEMS shall comply with CISPR 11"
According to Clause 7.1.3 Multimedia equipment:
"Multimedia equipment connected to ME EQUIPMENT and ME SYSTEMS shall comply 
with CISPR 32. If CISPR 32 class A equipment is supplied as part of an ME 
SYSTEM, the ME SYSTEM shall be classified class A."
A number of modern medical equipment includes devices that are clearly 
multimedia equipment.
Are there any published guidelines for indicating when testing medical 
equipment that includes multimedia devices to CISPR 32 instead of CISPR 11?

Best Regards,
David Shidlowsky
Technical Reviewer
[cid:image001.jpg@01D6FE4D.6645B6B0]
Address 1 Bat-Sheva St. POB 6117, LOD7120101   Israel
Tel: 972-8-9186100 Ext. 213 Direct: 972-8-9186113   Fax: 972-8-9153101
Mail: dav...@itlglobal.org   Web 
www.itlglobal.org

[cid:image002.png@01D6FE4D.6645B6B0]Waze ITL: https://waze.com/ul/hsv8vccn2j



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David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] AW: [PSES] Friday Question - table of electrochemical potentials

[John Barnes]

Dürrer,
The table in the Wikipedia article  
   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_corrosion#Anodic_index   
has more entries, is more descriptive, and doesn't totally agree with
Table 7-1 on page 156 of Gershon J. Wheeler's book, The Design of
Electronic Equipment: A Manual for Production and Manufacturing:

Table 7-1 Galvanic Series

Metal Anodic Index (0.01 volt)
- 
Gold, Platinum  0
Rhodium10
Silver 15
Nickel 30
Copper 35
Brass  40
Stainless Steel50
Chromium   60
Tin-Plate, Tin-Lead Solder 65
Iron   85
Aluminum Alloys90
Cadmium95
Zinc  125
Magnesium 175



Thanks!

John Barnes KS4GL, PE, NCE, NCT, ESDC Eng, ESDC Tech, PSE, Master EMC  
  Design Eng, SM IEEE (retired)
216 Hillsboro Ave
Lexington, KY  40511-2105
(859)253-1178  phone
jrbar...@iglou.com
http://www.dbicorporation.com/

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Re: [PSES] AW: [PSES] Friday Question - table of electrochemical potentials

[Douglas E Powell]

 Thanks Ken,

I have seen tables like this before, and this one is nice by virtue of its
publishing date. I wonder where they obtained their information, is it
possible that in the past it was considered "common knowledge"?  Most
tables like this I've seen tend to only cover elemental metals. Personally,
I find that correlating two different alloyed metals to a list like this is
very hard.

In the end, I suppose what I really want is a way to understand the
potential for corrosion between any two metals and ultimately what is the
likelihood of a product operating correctly for its entire life. This is
probably the reason we still do salt fog testing in the real world.

-Doug


Douglas E Powell
Laporte, Colorado USA
doug...@gmail.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01



On Mon, Feb 8, 2021 at 9:21 AM Ken Javor 
wrote:

> From the Reference Handbook for Radio Engineers, 2nd edition, 1946:
>
>
>
>
>
> Ken Javor
> Phone: (256) 650-5261
>
> > From: John Barnes 
> > Reply-To: John Barnes 
> > Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2021 10:43:29 -0500
> > To: 
> > Subject: Re: [PSES] AW: [PSES] Friday Question - table of
> electrochemical
> > potentials
> >
> > Dürrer,
> > The table in the Wikipedia article
> >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_corrosion#Anodic_index
> > has more entries, is more descriptive, and doesn't totally agree with
> > Table 7-1 on page 156 of Gershon J. Wheeler's book, The Design of
> > Electronic Equipment: A Manual for Production and Manufacturing:
> >
> > Table 7-1 Galvanic Series
> >
> > Metal Anodic Index (0.01 volt)
> > - 
> > Gold, Platinum  0
> > Rhodium10
> > Silver 15
> > Nickel 30
> > Copper 35
> > Brass  40
> > Stainless Steel50
> > Chromium   60
> > Tin-Plate, Tin-Lead Solder 65
> > Iron   85
> > Aluminum Alloys90
> > Cadmium95
> > Zinc  125
> > Magnesium 175
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > John Barnes KS4GL, PE, NCE, NCT, ESDC Eng, ESDC Tech, PSE, Master EMC
> >   Design Eng, SM IEEE (retired)
> > 216 Hillsboro Ave
> > Lexington, KY  40511-2105
> > (859)253-1178  phone
> > jrbar...@iglou.com
> > http://www.dbicorporation.com/
> >
> > -
> > 
> > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society
> emc-pstc
> > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to
> > 
> >
> > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
> >
> > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site
> at
> > http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in
> well-used
> > formats), large files, etc.
> >
> > Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
> > Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to
> > unsubscribe)
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> >
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> > Scott Douglas 
> > Mike Cantwell 
> >
> > For policy questions, send mail to:
> > Jim Bacher:  
> > David Heald: 
> -
> 
>
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
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> emc-p...@ieee.org
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> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
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>


-- 

Douglas E Powell

doug...@gmail.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01

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Instructions:  

Re: [PSES] AW: [PSES] Friday Question - table of electrochemical potentials

[Ken Javor]

>From the Reference Handbook for Radio Engineers, 2nd edition, 1946:





Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261

> From: John Barnes 
> Reply-To: John Barnes 
> Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2021 10:43:29 -0500
> To: 
> Subject: Re: [PSES] AW: [PSES] Friday Question - table of electrochemical
> potentials
> 
> Dürrer,
> The table in the Wikipedia article
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_corrosion#Anodic_index
> has more entries, is more descriptive, and doesn't totally agree with
> Table 7-1 on page 156 of Gershon J. Wheeler's book, The Design of
> Electronic Equipment: A Manual for Production and Manufacturing:
> 
> Table 7-1 Galvanic Series
> 
> Metal Anodic Index (0.01 volt)
> - 
> Gold, Platinum  0
> Rhodium10
> Silver 15
> Nickel 30
> Copper 35
> Brass  40
> Stainless Steel50
> Chromium   60
> Tin-Plate, Tin-Lead Solder 65
> Iron   85
> Aluminum Alloys90
> Cadmium95
> Zinc  125
> Magnesium 175
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> John Barnes KS4GL, PE, NCE, NCT, ESDC Eng, ESDC Tech, PSE, Master EMC
>   Design Eng, SM IEEE (retired)
> 216 Hillsboro Ave
> Lexington, KY  40511-2105
> (859)253-1178  phone
> jrbar...@iglou.com
> http://www.dbicorporation.com/
> 
> -
> 
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to
> 
> 
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
> 
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
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> formats), large files, etc.
> 
> Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
> Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to
> unsubscribe)
> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
> 
> For help, send mail to the list administrators:
> Scott Douglas 
> Mike Cantwell 
> 
> For policy questions, send mail to:
> Jim Bacher:  
> David Heald: 


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Re: [PSES] Testing to IEC 60601-1-2

[Charlie Blackham]

David

My understanding is this:


  *   ME equipment is defined in EN 60601-1 clause 3.63 and includes those 
ACCESSORIES as defined by the MANUFACTURER that are necessary to enable the 
NORMAL USE of the ME EQUIPMENT.
  *   7.1.3 is for multimedia and ITE equipment "connected to", not "part of", 
ME equipment
  *   The manufacturer should know what is what and should be defining the 
system and the test plan

Best regards
Charlie

Charlie Blackham
Sulis Consultants Ltd
Tel: +44 (0)7946 624317
Web: https://sulisconsultants.com/
Registered in England and Wales, number 05466247

From: David Shidlovsky 
Sent: 08 February 2021 17:06
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Testing to IEC 60601-1-2

Hello
IEC 60601-1-2 allows testing of conducted and radiated emissions to CISPR 11; 
CISPR 14-11; CISPR 32.
Concerning the use of CISPR 32:
According to Clause 7.1.1 General:
"Unless otherwise specified herein, ME 
EQUIPMENT and ME SYSTEMS shall comply with CISPR 11"
According to Clause 7.1.3 Multimedia equipment:
"Multimedia equipment connected to ME EQUIPMENT and ME SYSTEMS shall comply 
with CISPR 32. If CISPR 32 class A equipment is supplied as part of an ME 
SYSTEM, the ME SYSTEM shall be classified class A."
A number of modern medical equipment includes devices that are clearly 
multimedia equipment.
Are there any published guidelines for indicating when testing medical 
equipment that includes multimedia devices to CISPR 32 instead of CISPR 11?

Best Regards,
David Shidlowsky
Technical Reviewer
[cid:image001.jpg@01D6FE57.7288DBF0]
Address 1 Bat-Sheva St. POB 6117, LOD7120101   Israel
Tel: 972-8-9186100 Ext. 213 Direct: 972-8-9186113   Fax: 972-8-9153101
Mail: dav...@itlglobal.org   Web 
www.itlglobal.org

[cid:image002.png@01D6FE57.7288DBF0]Waze ITL: https://waze.com/ul/hsv8vccn2j


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