Re: [Emc-users] line limitation

[Dave Engvall]

Sorry, I kinda ignored it because I have too many irons in the fire.

Address:

320 Baker Rd.
Selah, WA 98942

Dave

If  nothing else my address is well hidden in the attendee lists from  
the cnc-workshop. ;-)
On Aug 9, 2009, at 10:28 PM, Jon Elson wrote:

> Dave Engvall wrote:
>> well vim may be vile but it is fast and it does work most of the
>> time. ;-)
>>
> Hey, Dave, I sent you an email last week about returning that  
> Panasonic
> motor to you.
> I need your address (I should have it somewhere.)
>
> Jon
>
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Re: [Emc-users] line limitation

[Jon Elson]

Dave Engvall wrote:
> well vim may be vile but it is fast and it does work most of the  
> time. ;-)
>   
Hey, Dave, I sent you an email last week about returning that Panasonic 
motor to you.
I need your address (I should have it somewhere.)

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] line limitation

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 09 August 2009, Dave Engvall wrote:
>well vim may be vile but it is fast and it does work most of the
>time. ;-)
>
>Dave
>
And its an old friend, I've been using it on one system or another most of the 
last 25 years.  The one break in the continuity was using CED on the amiga.  
Once SWMBO fixed it's habit of scribbling over memory it didn't own, that was 
one sweet editor.  But it was back to vim in 98 when I did my first linux 
install.

>On Aug 9, 2009, at 8:36 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
>> On Sunday 09 August 2009, Steve Blackmore wrote:
>>> On Sun, 09 Aug 2009 12:29:46 -0400, you wrote:
 And, when the subroutine works, you don't have to go do
 2300 identical edits on the big file to fix it.  That is a huge
 plus in
 development time for a job that contains a lot of step & repeat.
>>>
>>> "Edit/search/replace all" works here .)
>>>
>>> Steve Blackmore
>>
>> Chuckle, I just knew someone would point that out.  Unforch, that
>> has bitten
>> me enough times with vim that I'm gunshy.  In Basic09, that editor
>> does a fine
>> job, but vim has wild card bitten me when I wasn't trying to do a
>> wild card
>> enough times I gave up on it.  Too used to s/string/newstring/g and
>> its done.
>> I know, I should switch editors... :)
>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> -
>>> ---
>>> -- Let Crystal Reports handle the reporting - Free Crystal Reports
>>> 2008
>>> 30-Day trial. Simplify your report design, integration and
>>> deployment - and
>>> focus on what you do best, core application coding. Discover
>>> what's new
>>> with Crystal Reports now.  http://p.sf.net/sfu/bobj-july
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>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>>
>> --
>> Cheers, Gene
>> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>>  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
>> -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
>> The NRA is offering FREE Associate memberships to anyone who wants
>> them.
>> 
>>
>> One thought driven home is better than three left on base.
>>
>>
>> --
>> 
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>> 2008 30-Day
>> trial. Simplify your report design, integration and deployment -
>> and focus on
>> what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with
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>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
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Re: [Emc-users] Servo tuning--plot request

[BRIAN GLACKIN]

Just an observers note - The original question was a request for servo
tuning info for an article.  Looks like there are two sub threads here - Jim
Fleig did the right this and spawned a new thread..

$0.02 + $4 gets you a latte
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Re: [Emc-users] line limitation

[Dave Engvall]

well vim may be vile but it is fast and it does work most of the  
time. ;-)

Dave
On Aug 9, 2009, at 8:36 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:

> On Sunday 09 August 2009, Steve Blackmore wrote:
>> On Sun, 09 Aug 2009 12:29:46 -0400, you wrote:
>>> And, when the subroutine works, you don't have to go do
>>> 2300 identical edits on the big file to fix it.  That is a huge  
>>> plus in
>>> development time for a job that contains a lot of step & repeat.
>>
>> "Edit/search/replace all" works here .)
>>
>> Steve Blackmore
>
> Chuckle, I just knew someone would point that out.  Unforch, that  
> has bitten
> me enough times with vim that I'm gunshy.  In Basic09, that editor  
> does a fine
> job, but vim has wild card bitten me when I wasn't trying to do a  
> wild card
> enough times I gave up on it.  Too used to s/string/newstring/g and  
> its done.
> I know, I should switch editors... :)
>
>> --
>>
>> - 
>> ---
>> -- Let Crystal Reports handle the reporting - Free Crystal Reports  
>> 2008
>> 30-Day trial. Simplify your report design, integration and  
>> deployment - and
>> focus on what you do best, core application coding. Discover  
>> what's new
>> with Crystal Reports now.  http://p.sf.net/sfu/bobj-july
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>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>
>
> -- 
> Cheers, Gene
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> The NRA is offering FREE Associate memberships to anyone who wants  
> them.
> 
>
> One thought driven home is better than three left on base.
>
>
> -- 
> 
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> 2008 30-Day
> trial. Simplify your report design, integration and deployment -  
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[Emc-users] Automatic program resume. Topic of myth or legend?

[Greg Bentzinger]

*** Quoting ***

From: Steve Blackmore 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Servo tuning--plot request
To: EMC2-Users-List 
Message-ID: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

On Sun, 09 Aug 2009 21:00:18 +0100, you wrote:

>> The inability to feed hold and do other thing like, stop spindle, jog
>> away to clear chips, or change an insert and re zero tool and then just
>> press cycle start and continue are a show stopper. I've spoken to many
>> business associates over the last few months and every one said they
>> would not consider a control system without this.
>>   
>EMC can do all this, u just need to know how to operate the control. if
>you can do this on a fanuc 6/10M or newer you can do it on EMC.
>just pause program. job away to where ever. stop spindle
>do what ever
>restart spindle in MDI just like u would have to on fanuc. reload H
>offset if needed
>then switch back to program pick run from line when in place away you go.
>
>its how we have to do it on our fanuc 10 so its no show stoper for us.

Fanuc 6 or10  Ancient 80's technology and absolutely nothing to
aspire to.

Most of my contacts run 16/18/21 which are streets ahead of that
obsolete stuff. I believe they are up to 31 or so at the moment ;)

Please tell me how you feed hold mid program, stop spindle, jog away
from the work, do whatever you need to, then press cycle start and
continue in EMC without doing a "Stop, note the line number then run
from current line"?

*** SNIP ***

Steve Blackmore

Well - I'd love to see a Fanuc 16/18/21 do as you ask.

None of the Mori Seiki, Kitamura, or Hwacheon machines I have used have this 
magic ability. ( I leave out Mazak - cause they are just different, and Okuma, 
which doesn't really break the rules, they just made up there own.)

Every one of these requires picking a safe restart point. If I were to interupt 
the AUTO cycle and move, change a tool offset, index a turret or replace a 
milling tool holder - then just switch back to AUTO and hit START... The 
results would not be pretty.

There are some nice restart functions - and I use them when available, but 
nothing as simple as you suggest. I have not been doing this for 30 years yet 
(close), and the days of loading paper tapes are nearly forgotten. I attend the 
WESTEC show every year to see the latest bells and whistles. I would think 
those sales people would be very proud of such a capability and showing it off, 
but they are not.

On the other side we have companies which refuse to do any employee training. - 
The state of CNC technology offers several different ways to cope with 
different production issues - are all the employees on the same page?

EMC2.3.3 is so far removed from the original NIST EMC, and as it evolves it 
will eventually get rewritten such that the code today would appear obsolete. 
It will get there someday.

Greg 

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Re: [Emc-users] line limitation

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 09 August 2009, Steve Blackmore wrote:
>On Sun, 09 Aug 2009 12:29:46 -0400, you wrote:
>>And, when the subroutine works, you don't have to go do
>>2300 identical edits on the big file to fix it.  That is a huge plus in
>>development time for a job that contains a lot of step & repeat.
>
>"Edit/search/replace all" works here .)
>
>Steve Blackmore

Chuckle, I just knew someone would point that out.  Unforch, that has bitten 
me enough times with vim that I'm gunshy.  In Basic09, that editor does a fine 
job, but vim has wild card bitten me when I wasn't trying to do a wild card 
enough times I gave up on it.  Too used to s/string/newstring/g and its done.  
I know, I should switch editors... :)

>--
>
>
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
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Re: [Emc-users] line limitation

[Steve Blackmore]

On Sun, 09 Aug 2009 12:29:46 -0400, you wrote:


>And, when the subroutine works, you don't have to go do 
>2300 identical edits on the big file to fix it.  That is a huge plus in 
>development time for a job that contains a lot of step & repeat.

"Edit/search/replace all" works here .)

Steve Blackmore
--

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Re: [Emc-users] Servo tuning--plot request

[Steve Blackmore]

On Sun, 09 Aug 2009 21:00:18 +0100, you wrote:

>> The inability to feed hold and do other thing like, stop spindle, jog
>> away to clear chips, or change an insert and re zero tool and then just
>> press cycle start and continue are a show stopper. I've spoken to many
>> business associates over the last few months and every one said they
>> would not consider a control system without this.
>>   
>EMC can do all this, u just need to know how to operate the control. if 
>you can do this on a fanuc 6/10M or newer you can do it on EMC.
>just pause program. job away to where ever. stop spindle
>do what ever
>restart spindle in MDI just like u would have to on fanuc. reload H 
>offset if needed
>then switch back to program pick run from line when in place away you go.
>
>its how we have to do it on our fanuc 10 so its no show stoper for us.

Fanuc 6 or10  Ancient 80's technology and absolutely nothing to
aspire to. 

Most of my contacts run 16/18/21 which are streets ahead of that
obsolete stuff. I believe they are up to 31 or so at the moment ;)

Please tell me how you feed hold mid program, stop spindle, jog away
from the work, do whatever you need to, then press cycle start and
continue in EMC without doing a "Stop, note the line number then run
from current line"?

I've asked before and I've been told it's impossible because of the
interpreter, and it would need a major rewrite? Quote

"The feedhold HAL input merely causes the motion controller to stop the 
motors in a controlled way, it doesn't change modes to allow manual/MDI 
movement."

If you have a work around I'd be very pleased to hear about it.

Steve Blackmore
--

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[Emc-users] emc chess pawn part program request

[Rondal Nannie]

Hello I have a emco compact 5 cnc with emc just configuredand I was 
wondering if anybody has the program saved for a chess pawn part. I  would like 
to use this for a test program. Thanks  in advance Ron 

--- On Sun, 8/9/09, robert  wrote:


From: robert 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Servo tuning--plot request
To: st...@pilotltd.net, "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 

Date: Sunday, August 9, 2009, 8:00 PM



> Hi Rob, the only selling point you have is cost if it's in a commercial
> environment. 
>   
not so true in all respect, you have alot of control if you know the in 
and outs of EMC.
EMC u can customize up using HAL to pretty much any setup you care for. 
if thats enough you can wire your own modules to go into hal to do near 
anything.
you can sync two axis/spindles or more while doing a spindle sync move. 
the list is huge in setups and customizing.
EMC is doing things the new fanuc controls and likes are only just 
getting to grips with if something comes up you wish to do it can always 
be added its no longer a huge fee cost of a parameter unlock or PLC 
reload, i find EMC like old Phillips controls what you see is what you 
get in term of features, if the NC control can do it its there to be used.

before we made the upgrade we did look at new controls, Fagal, Fanuc, 
Mitsubishi etc but when you start going 5 axis, large program space. 
then add on new servo drives and motors. a new machine would be the 
cheaper option in some respect. its all swings and roundabouts in areas.
> Forget the fancy math. Mostly CAM takes care of that. Complicated sub
> routines aren't used a lot either.
>
> Main reasons being, the operator is likely to know nothing more than the
> standard Fanuc stuff and if he doesn't understand the code your asking
> for trouble. Commercially, time is money, learning advanced math is
> almost certainly not high on a list of priorities.
>   
what is this advanced math? do you mean programing complex parts etc.
yes CAM systems have taken over alot these days on multi axis etc but i 
do know alot of shops that do programing online at control. we dont do 
as much but small part drill few holes etc we will do it online as EMC 
takes in standard Gcode theres no need for code change much (if any).
> Sub routines are devalued because you often can't safely pause and
> restart in one, and that is a point generally you are going to struggle
> with trying to promote EMC. 
>   
Subs we only tend to use these days when running large production jobs 
with many parts on a jig so when a change needs to be made you dont need 
to go back to the CAM its one sub change that changes for many parts if 
need be. every one programs in different ways and has there likes and 
dislikes i know some ppl that have subs for G28 G91 Z0 X0 Y0 and call it 
eat time at start and tool change.
along with many other things.
> The inability to feed hold and do other thing like, stop spindle, jog
> away to clear chips, or change an insert and re zero tool and then just
> press cycle start and continue are a show stopper. I've spoken to many
> business associates over the last few months and every one said they
> would not consider a control system without this.
>   
EMC can do all this, u just need to know how to operate the control. if 
you can do this on a fanuc 6/10M or newer you can do it on EMC.
just pause program. job away to where ever. stop spindle
do what ever
restart spindle in MDI just like u would have to on fanuc. reload H 
offset if needed
then switch back to program pick run from line when in place away you go.

its how we have to do it on our fanuc 10 so its no show stoper for us.

if your looking for a stop program, move up pick line and go
the devs keep visiting this option but there is soo many unknowns to 
take care of its a real nigh mare as not just the mill and lathe side of 
things. but the above works fine.

> As for the 2000 lines, it's probably more than adequate if he's only
> doing 2.5D work. 
>
> Steve Blackmore
> --
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Servo tuning--plot request

[Frank Tkalcevic]

That wasn't the problem.  When I was tuning my servos they were pretty stiff
and responsive, but still making a lot of noise.  I tried to tweak the PID
parameters, but every now and then I would change something that caused the
servos to oscillate wildly out of control.  When this happened, rather than
using the MDI to generate a signal, enabling / disabling the machine is all
I could do. 

I think I was assuming that getting the servo into a stage of poor PID
tuning was normal.


> -Original Message-
> From: Jon Elson [mailto:el...@pico-systems.com] 
> Sent: Monday, 10 August 2009 4:39 AM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Servo tuning--plot request
> 
> 
> > Frank Tkalcevic wrote:
> >   
> >> How do you generate your step pulses?  When I was tunning, I would 
> >> keep the machine on and do an MDI move.  This doesn't work 
> too well 
> >> when the tuning is so bad it faults when you enable the machine.
> >>   
> >> 
> Hmm, looks like I missed part of your question.  If it is 
> faulting immediately, there may be a reversal of the motor 
> wires, or some other reason the servo diverges, when it is 
> supposed to converge.  I show that sort of response in one of 
> the pictures on my tutorial.  If you turn the gain down, then 
> you may be able to keep it from going wild immediately.
> I have software-controlled following error in EMC, not in the 
> drive, so I can set it quite wide when starting out.
> 
> Jon
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Servo tuning--plot request

[robert]

> Hi Rob, the only selling point you have is cost if it's in a commercial
> environment. 
>   
not so true in all respect, you have alot of control if you know the in 
and outs of EMC.
EMC u can customize up using HAL to pretty much any setup you care for. 
if thats enough you can wire your own modules to go into hal to do near 
anything.
you can sync two axis/spindles or more while doing a spindle sync move. 
the list is huge in setups and customizing.
EMC is doing things the new fanuc controls and likes are only just 
getting to grips with if something comes up you wish to do it can always 
be added its no longer a huge fee cost of a parameter unlock or PLC 
reload, i find EMC like old Phillips controls what you see is what you 
get in term of features, if the NC control can do it its there to be used.

before we made the upgrade we did look at new controls, Fagal, Fanuc, 
Mitsubishi etc but when you start going 5 axis, large program space. 
then add on new servo drives and motors. a new machine would be the 
cheaper option in some respect. its all swings and roundabouts in areas.
> Forget the fancy math. Mostly CAM takes care of that. Complicated sub
> routines aren't used a lot either.
>
> Main reasons being, the operator is likely to know nothing more than the
> standard Fanuc stuff and if he doesn't understand the code your asking
> for trouble. Commercially, time is money, learning advanced math is
> almost certainly not high on a list of priorities.
>   
what is this advanced math? do you mean programing complex parts etc.
yes CAM systems have taken over alot these days on multi axis etc but i 
do know alot of shops that do programing online at control. we dont do 
as much but small part drill few holes etc we will do it online as EMC 
takes in standard Gcode theres no need for code change much (if any).
> Sub routines are devalued because you often can't safely pause and
> restart in one, and that is a point generally you are going to struggle
> with trying to promote EMC. 
>   
Subs we only tend to use these days when running large production jobs 
with many parts on a jig so when a change needs to be made you dont need 
to go back to the CAM its one sub change that changes for many parts if 
need be. every one programs in different ways and has there likes and 
dislikes i know some ppl that have subs for G28 G91 Z0 X0 Y0 and call it 
eat time at start and tool change.
along with many other things.
> The inability to feed hold and do other thing like, stop spindle, jog
> away to clear chips, or change an insert and re zero tool and then just
> press cycle start and continue are a show stopper. I've spoken to many
> business associates over the last few months and every one said they
> would not consider a control system without this.
>   
EMC can do all this, u just need to know how to operate the control. if 
you can do this on a fanuc 6/10M or newer you can do it on EMC.
just pause program. job away to where ever. stop spindle
do what ever
restart spindle in MDI just like u would have to on fanuc. reload H 
offset if needed
then switch back to program pick run from line when in place away you go.

its how we have to do it on our fanuc 10 so its no show stoper for us.

if your looking for a stop program, move up pick line and go
the devs keep visiting this option but there is soo many unknowns to 
take care of its a real nigh mare as not just the mill and lathe side of 
things. but the above works fine.

> As for the 2000 lines, it's probably more than adequate if he's only
> doing 2.5D work. 
>
> Steve Blackmore
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Re: [Emc-users] Servo tuning--plot request

[Jon Elson]

> Frank Tkalcevic wrote:
>   
>> How do you generate your step pulses?  When I was tunning, I would keep the
>> machine on and do an MDI move.  This doesn't work too well when the tuning
>> is so bad it faults when you enable the machine.
>>   
>> 
Hmm, looks like I missed part of your question.  If it is faulting 
immediately, there may be a reversal of the motor wires, or some other 
reason the servo diverges, when it is supposed to converge.  I show that 
sort of response in one of the pictures on my tutorial.  If you turn the 
gain down, then you may be able to keep it from going wild immediately.
I have software-controlled following error in EMC, not in the drive, so 
I can set it quite wide when starting out.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Servo tuning--plot request (commercial use of EMC)

[Jim Fleig - CNC Services]

Steve's comments below are right on target with my commercial customers 
responses.  As I am not a programmer, I have much admiration for everything 
that EMC can do currently and the programmmers that made it happen.  I look 
forward to the features mentioned below.  Is it to early for Christmas wish 
lists?

:-)

Jim


- Original Message - 
From: "Steve Blackmore" 
To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
Sent: Sunday, August 09, 2009 5:35 AM
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Servo tuning--plot request


> On Sat, 08 Aug 2009 20:54:35 +0200, you wrote:
>
*snip*
>
> The inability to feed hold and do other thing like, stop spindle, jog
> away to clear chips, or change an insert and re zero tool and then just
> press cycle start and continue are a show stopper. I've spoken to many
> business associates over the last few months and every one said they
> would not consider a control system without this.
>
*snip*.
>
> Steve Blackmore
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> on
> what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with
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Re: [Emc-users] line limitation

[Kenneth Lerman]

The problem is that Axis will try to display the program and that takes 
a lot of time and memory.

There is a pseudo comment that you can use to turn the axis display on 
and off in your program. Is is something like: (AXIS STOP) and (AXIS 
START). RTFM for the actual syntax -- I don't remember the exact commands.

There is no practical size limitation as far as the number of lines is 
concerned. The lines are NOT all read into memory at the same time in EMC.

Ken

aaron moore wrote:
> Hi EMC
> I have a file with something like 300,000 line of code to cut a complicated 
> fretwork screen divider, but EMC will not open the file.  I seem to remember 
> there was some discussion over a limit to the number of lines of code EMC can 
> deal with.  Could someone offer advice or point me to the archive.
> Thanx
> Aaron
>
>   

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Re: [Emc-users] line limitation

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 09 August 2009, aaron moore wrote:
>Hi EMC
>I have a file with something like 300,000 line of code to cut a complicated
> fretwork screen divider, but EMC will not open the file.  I seem to
> remember there was some discussion over a limit to the number of lines of
> code EMC can deal with.  Could someone offer advice or point me to the
> archive. Thanx
>Aaron

>From a total amateur, I'd ask "does it open it, but seem to get stuck with the 
spinning cursor?"

300,000 lines of code to run for errors, which emc does silently when a 
program is loaded, is going to take quite some time.  I have run into a couple 
of cases where I had written a subroutine, but the exit tests were bogus, and 
it never came back from the spinning cursor stage.  But I don't recall it has 
ever complained because the program was too big.  I do have a 100 line program 
to sharpen a carbide table saw blade that has a runtime of about a day, and 
which takes the initial scan some minutes to complete.  However I suppose it 
may be possible on a machine with limited memory.

I like subroutines, they can shrink the code to just a few percent of the 
unwound versions.  And, when the subroutine works, you don't have to go do 
2300 identical edits on the big file to fix it.  That is a huge plus in 
development time for a job that contains a lot of step & repeat.

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[Emc-users] line limitation

[aaron moore]

Hi EMC
I have a file with something like 300,000 line of code to cut a complicated 
fretwork screen divider, but EMC will not open the file.  I seem to remember 
there was some discussion over a limit to the number of lines of code EMC can 
deal with.  Could someone offer advice or point me to the archive.
Thanx
Aaron

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Re: [Emc-users] Servo tuning--plot request

[Steve Blackmore]

On Sat, 08 Aug 2009 20:54:35 +0200, you wrote:

>Also the old Fanuc does not accept any parameters of math and 
>a max. of about 2000 lines of code.So I am trying to convince him to 
>retrofit to EMC to greatly enhance his possibilities.

Hi Rob, the only selling point you have is cost if it's in a commercial
environment. 

Forget the fancy math. Mostly CAM takes care of that. Complicated sub
routines aren't used a lot either.

Main reasons being, the operator is likely to know nothing more than the
standard Fanuc stuff and if he doesn't understand the code your asking
for trouble. Commercially, time is money, learning advanced math is
almost certainly not high on a list of priorities.

Sub routines are devalued because you often can't safely pause and
restart in one, and that is a point generally you are going to struggle
with trying to promote EMC. 

The inability to feed hold and do other thing like, stop spindle, jog
away to clear chips, or change an insert and re zero tool and then just
press cycle start and continue are a show stopper. I've spoken to many
business associates over the last few months and every one said they
would not consider a control system without this.

As for the 2000 lines, it's probably more than adequate if he's only
doing 2.5D work. 

Steve Blackmore
--

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