[Emc-users] DIY rotary encoders and how they work.

[Gregg Eshelman]

The video here was very informative, showing how a small gear motor and 
a windshield wiper motor can be converted to servo motors. It also 
covers things like positioning accuracy and shows a motor from a printer 
with a very high count encoder disk.

http://hackaday.com/2016/01/08/video-gives-you-the-basics-of-diy-rotary-encoders/

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Re: [Emc-users] help me MESA card select

[andy pugh]

On 10 January 2016 at 17:14, Horváth Csaba  wrote:
> *Please help me to select which MESA controller cards would be the best for
> this function.*

For step-dir and encoders the normal recomendation would be the 5i25
or 6i25 and then a 7i85S for the step/dir and encoder interface.
For the general purpose IO you can attach a 7i84 though that only
gives you 16 outputs (and 32 inputs) so doesn't exactly match your
specification
Some of the digital inputs on the 7i84 can be configured as MPG counters.
This also leaves the spindle 0-10V unfulfilled.

The 5i25 can connect to two separate 25-pin daughter cards, and many
of the daughter cards can be extended with a smart-serial card.
(the exception is the 7i74 which doesn't do anthing itself but allows
you to attach 8 smart-serial cards.

You could use a 7i76 on one connector for step/dir, GPIO and spindle
control, then add a 7i85 / 7i85S to the other connector soley for the
encoders.
This would still leave you fractionally short on output pins, you
might still want the 7i84 for more GPIO and the MPG counter. (though
there are pins on the 7i76 which can be put into mpg mode)

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Re: [Emc-users] help me MESA card select

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 10 January 2016 12:14:23 Horváth Csaba wrote:

> *would like to realize the set-up of the CNC mill You can find it in
> the attachement.*
> *Please help me to select which MESA controller cards would be the
> best for this function.*
> *The computer will be PC. In this PC there are 2 qty PCI expansion
> ports and 2 qty PCIE 1x slot. Also ethernet connection can come into
> question.* *The operating system will be Linux and the computer would
> work with LinuxCNC program.*
> *
> *
> *I have to convert a TDM1050MH mill, because the rotation of the
> spindle stops during rotation (the control PC disables the spindle and
> doesn't give an error signal), but the axis feed move along. Has
> anyone ever met this kind of problem?*
>
And that is a bit hard on cutting tools if its in mid-job, like makes 2 
or more pieces out of them.  Vary bad dog that.

I have had that happen under 3 conditions:

1.  Blew the puny hexfet in the motor controller in my HF toy mill, 
several years ago. I pulled a much heavier rated hexfet out of a pc's 
psu that had gone out of tolerance voltagewise.  That was maybe 5 years 
ago.  The bigger bug allowed me to raise the fuses amps label, and I've 
had zero problems since.

2. I had it happen on a couple occasions with the first PC I tried to 
drive my G0704 with.  memtest upchucked all over itself.

I changed computers after that, no more memtest problems.

3. My G0704 has one of Jon's pwm servo-amp drivers for a spindle driver.  
With a pure DC supply of nominally 126 volts, that motor, which 
Grizzly's catalog says 2250 revs, can run slightly above 2850 (at the 
spindle of course) but after quite a few minutes above 2800, apparently 
triggers a reset-able thermal in the motor. and its nominally 1:30 to 
cool and resume, so I simply don't run it faster than 2550 as a general 
rule. Nothing in or on that motor was above 105F when it happened.

So I'd start memtest86+ from the boot screen and let it run for at least 
a day.  If it squawks, reseat the memory 2 or 4 times per stick to clean 
the contacts and retest.  Pay attention to keeping yourself well 
grounded to the case/frame while doing that of course.

And report back what you find, please.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
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Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Rewiring the BP Again

[Dave Cole]

I understand.I'm working out of town and just came back for the 
weekend.

For me this is a good time to be distracted with too much work.

It helps me ignore the wind gusts to 30 mph, the snow, and the temps 
headed to 8 degrees F for tonight.
Except that I need to drive a long ways in this crap tomorrow morning.

Dave

On 1/10/2016 3:59 PM, John Thornton wrote:
> Still trying to digest this in between working...
>
> On 1/10/2016 7:48 AM, Bertho Stultiens wrote:
>> On 01/10/2016 12:44 PM, John Thornton wrote:
>>> Well none of the suggestions about star grounding did any good. In
>>> fact they made the problem worse than before, so bad I could not even
>>> get 2.6 to run.
>> That may suggest a couple of things being wrong simultaneously:
>> 1) you may still have loops in the 0VDC which are crossing power
>> domains. These /are/ hard to detect with many devices connected together;
>> 2) there are impedance mismatches in the signal wiring (this one often
>> works together with 1);
>> 3) shields may pick up noise they should reject.
>>
>> The question is how to reduce the practical problems, not how to
>> eliminate all theoretical problems. That is the hard part.
>>
>>
>>> Off this list I was sent the AB servo best wiring practices pdf
>>> which explained how to reduce noise in a servo drive enclosure. I
>>> followed the advise as much as possible and after removing all my ground
>>> wire antennas I was back running with an occasional sserial error. The
>>> short explanation is to terminate the shields to a ground plane as close
>>> as possible to the point where you take the shield/drain wire from the
>>> cable. I still have a cable bundle running to my switch box that is
>>> parallel wires and I might replace that with some twisted pairs. Photos
>>> at 11.
>> You refer to this document?
>> http://literature.rockwellautomation.com/idc/groups/literature/documents/at/motion-at004_-en-p.pdf
>>
>> That doc explains very well how to separate into different power zones.
>> Also, it makes a good case of shielding and how to do it properly. BTW,
>> note that it uses protective ground as shield potential and _not_ 0VDC.
>> That is also why the argument of two-sided termination of the shield is
>> appropriate (see page 21).
>>
>> But all this does not save you from impedance problems. The sserial
>> errors are interesting because it is probably something you actually can
>> measure with an oscilloscope.
>>
>> You should be able to see the signal integrity and whether you have
>> reflections of the signal at either end of the cable.
>>
>> The sserial connection has a great potential for a loop. See attached
>> image for illustration. The image has a shielded connection between two
>> devices, which is good. However, the 0VDC connection (aka GND), which is
>> embedded in the shielded connection is shorted outside the cable via a
>> protective ground connection through the PSUs. This means that part of
>> the signal return may circumvent the constraints of the signal cable and
>> that creates an unbalanced path. Effectively, it means that the shield
>> is now part of the cable's impedance, and that is guaranteed to be off
>> by a factor.
>>
>> You can check for this scenario by disconnecting the sserial connector
>> at one side and measure 0VDC vs protective ground on the connector on
>> the other side (and the other way around). You are in trouble when
>> measurements on both sides indicate a connection between 0VDC and
>> protective ground.
>>
>> If you only have one PSU for both devices, then you are potentially also
>> in trouble. The PSU will then act as the loop facilitator (through two
>> distinct 0VDC connections). However, the effects are more subtle and
>> depend on coupling effects.
>>
>> The rule for a shielded cable is that all energy must be contained
>> within the cable to be effective. In other words, the sum of all
>> currents in the cable's wires must be zero. Bypassing some of it may
>> cause impedance and therefore signal integrity problems.
>>
>>
>>
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[Emc-users] LinuxCNC 2.6.12 released

[Sebastian Kuzminsky]

LinuxCNC 2.6.12 has been released.  This release fixes a couple of
relatively obscure bugs.  All 2.6 users are encouraged to upgrade.

Credit for this release goes to all the folks who have reported bugs
in our code and documentation, and especially to the people who have
committed bugfixes and improvements:

* Bernhard M. Wiedemann
* Chris Morley
* Chris Radek
* Dewey Garrett
* Jeff Epler
* John Morris
* John Thornton
* Michael Geszkiewicz
* Norbert Schechner
* Salvatore Balestrino
* Sebastian Kuzminsky

Here's the full changelog:

* docs: add more github info to Contributing to LinuxCNC
* docs: improve G43.1 info
* docs: acknowledge Debian and UBUNTU trademarks
* docs: fix incorrect GladeVCP example syntax and typo
* docs: fix manpage markup bug in rtapi_app_{main,exit}.3rtapi
* docs: gladevcp - describe the new iconview signal "sensitive"
* docs: restore line numbers in example G-code
* docs: clarify some pins in the halui manpage
* docs: fix M70-M73 links in French Gcode Quick Reference
* docs: fix link to the giteveryday(1) manpage
* docs: describe gmoccapy Show Aux Display feature
* docs: document gmoccapy updates and deleted some pin

* mini.tcl: remove duplicate geo mgmt of widget
* keystick: fix signal handler a second time
* gladevcp: iconview could create exception in some circumstances
* gmoccapy: stay syncronized with iconview widget button states
* gladevcp/offset_widget: fix rare error of non-existant var file
* gscreen: fix industrial skin's A axis DRO readout
* tooledit_widget.py: tool diameter sorting fix
* halui: fix some jogging bugs
* halui: fix a copy-paste error that could prevent homing
* serport: fix pin-1-in-not

* task: fix start-from-line and remap interaction
* interp: it's nonsense to take a boost::cref(this)
* emcmodule: fix argument parsing
* rtapi/sim: better error reporting
* rtapi: error messages are better than errno numbers
* hal: don't segfault if rtapi_init() fails
* realtime script: wait for rtapi_app to die when stopping realtime

* halui/jogging test: change which joint is selected while jogging
* tests: test homing in halui/jogging
* tests: add a motion-logger test of a remap bug
* packaging: use "set -e" to fail on error in the postinst script
* buildbot: dont try to build on Jessie RTAI
* build: verify links in the gcode Quick Reference (English & French)

-- 
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Re: [Emc-users] Rewiring the BP Again

[John Thornton]

Still trying to digest this in between working...

On 1/10/2016 7:48 AM, Bertho Stultiens wrote:
> On 01/10/2016 12:44 PM, John Thornton wrote:
>> Well none of the suggestions about star grounding did any good. In
>> fact they made the problem worse than before, so bad I could not even
>> get 2.6 to run.
> That may suggest a couple of things being wrong simultaneously:
> 1) you may still have loops in the 0VDC which are crossing power
> domains. These /are/ hard to detect with many devices connected together;
> 2) there are impedance mismatches in the signal wiring (this one often
> works together with 1);
> 3) shields may pick up noise they should reject.
>
> The question is how to reduce the practical problems, not how to
> eliminate all theoretical problems. That is the hard part.
>
>
>> Off this list I was sent the AB servo best wiring practices pdf
>> which explained how to reduce noise in a servo drive enclosure. I
>> followed the advise as much as possible and after removing all my ground
>> wire antennas I was back running with an occasional sserial error. The
>> short explanation is to terminate the shields to a ground plane as close
>> as possible to the point where you take the shield/drain wire from the
>> cable. I still have a cable bundle running to my switch box that is
>> parallel wires and I might replace that with some twisted pairs. Photos
>> at 11.
> You refer to this document?
> http://literature.rockwellautomation.com/idc/groups/literature/documents/at/motion-at004_-en-p.pdf
>
> That doc explains very well how to separate into different power zones.
> Also, it makes a good case of shielding and how to do it properly. BTW,
> note that it uses protective ground as shield potential and _not_ 0VDC.
> That is also why the argument of two-sided termination of the shield is
> appropriate (see page 21).
>
> But all this does not save you from impedance problems. The sserial
> errors are interesting because it is probably something you actually can
> measure with an oscilloscope.
>
> You should be able to see the signal integrity and whether you have
> reflections of the signal at either end of the cable.
>
> The sserial connection has a great potential for a loop. See attached
> image for illustration. The image has a shielded connection between two
> devices, which is good. However, the 0VDC connection (aka GND), which is
> embedded in the shielded connection is shorted outside the cable via a
> protective ground connection through the PSUs. This means that part of
> the signal return may circumvent the constraints of the signal cable and
> that creates an unbalanced path. Effectively, it means that the shield
> is now part of the cable's impedance, and that is guaranteed to be off
> by a factor.
>
> You can check for this scenario by disconnecting the sserial connector
> at one side and measure 0VDC vs protective ground on the connector on
> the other side (and the other way around). You are in trouble when
> measurements on both sides indicate a connection between 0VDC and
> protective ground.
>
> If you only have one PSU for both devices, then you are potentially also
> in trouble. The PSU will then act as the loop facilitator (through two
> distinct 0VDC connections). However, the effects are more subtle and
> depend on coupling effects.
>
> The rule for a shielded cable is that all energy must be contained
> within the cable to be effective. In other words, the sum of all
> currents in the cable's wires must be zero. Bypassing some of it may
> cause impedance and therefore signal integrity problems.
>
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Rewiring the BP Again

[John Thornton]

The original Anliam drives and power supply.

JT

On 1/10/2016 2:41 PM, Dave Cole wrote:
> My mistake, gotta clean my glasses apparently.
>
> What are you using for axes drives?
>
> Dave
>
> On 1/10/2016 3:35 PM, John Thornton wrote:
>> I don't have AB drives... I have a filter on my GS2 and another one
>> after the control transformer.
>>
>> JT
>>
>> On 1/10/2016 11:40 AM, Dave Cole wrote:
>>> Do you have filters just prior to the input power on the AB Servo drives?
>>>
>>> I've also had problems with Teco servo drives backfeeding noise into the
>>> AC line and messing with Mesa boards.
>>> An input filter from AD fixed that problem as well.
>>>
>>> Dave
>>>
>>> On 1/10/2016 6:44 AM, John Thornton wrote:
 Well none of the suggestions about star grounding did any good. In fact
 they made the problem worse than before, so bad I could not even get 2.6
 to run. Off this list I was sent the AB servo best wiring practices pdf
 which explained how to reduce noise in a servo drive enclosure. I
 followed the advise as much as possible and after removing all my ground
 wire antennas I was back running with an occasional sserial error. The
 short explanation is to terminate the shields to a ground plane as close
 as possible to the point where you take the shield/drain wire from the
 cable. I still have a cable bundle running to my switch box that is
 parallel wires and I might replace that with some twisted pairs. Photos
 at 11.

 JT

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Re: [Emc-users] Rewiring the BP Again

[Dave Cole]

Hmm.. perhaps you should tell Peter that Missouri is wonderful this time 
of year.

Perhaps he will schedule a flight to the "show me state".  :-)

Dave

On 1/10/2016 3:35 PM, John Thornton wrote:
> I don't have AB drives... I have a filter on my GS2 and another one
> after the control transformer.
>
> JT
>
>

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Re: [Emc-users] Rewiring the BP Again

[Rafael]

I tried to find the original message in previous monster thread to have 
a better understanding of the problem but could not find it. I can't 
remember seeing what is connecting to VFD and few other things. I assume 
it's a Mesa board but which one? [1]

We all seem to keep running in circles here. Grounding had been 
mentioned many times, other theories abound, yet the system still shows 
"occasional sserial error". Occasional error is unlikely happening with 
good grounding solution unless you have a heavy load that pulls huge 
current through the ground exactly at that time or a high voltage spike 
somewhere.

In my last post in previous thread I suggested to go back to the 
beginning and check HW around the data line, both visual and electrical:
- cable, connectors including soldered or crimped connections,
- metal dust and corrosion on PCB traces, ICs, capacitors, (but I see 
your box is very clean)

I checked one of your pictures and see that you have a PC like power 
supply mounted on the door. PSU would be better mounted on the main 
panel, possibly eliminating need for undesirable DC cable extension. How 
good is the PSU?

Are the door and the box grounded to the common ground on the panel? 
Can't see that in the picture. I see wires at the bottom corners of the 
analog servo board, one black (left) and three black with yellow shrink 
tube (right). They are connected to the panel but not together in a star 
configuration. Where do they go? I don't see one (copper) bus bar for 
use as a common ground for everything.

More close up pictures from different angles would be helpful.

Additional questions related to "occasional sserial error" pop up in mind:
* what does it mean "occasional"? One error per 100 characters sent, one 
per 1k, etc.?
* what about parity or error correction?
* what kind of a command is issued when this happens?
* what happens before and after "sserial error" occurs?
* what are DC levels on serial connection?
* what is the noise level on DC power lines in idle mode and under the load?
* does it happen when the door is closed or open? See PSU notes above.
* is it always the same sequence of bits/bytes when this happens?
* what about mechanical vibration at the time?
* is it HW issue at all? What about the software? Are you doing 
something else on the same system while the CNC code is executing?
* Is there firmware in IO interface you need to deal with?
* where do you see "sserial error"? Log files or screen popup message? I 
think it's dmesg but I'm not familiar with this obviously. If log files 
what else is there before and after?

[1] http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/devel/html/man/man9/sserial.9.html

On 01/10/2016 03:44 AM, John Thornton wrote:
> Well none of the suggestions about star grounding did any good. In fact
> they made the problem worse than before, so bad I could not even get 2.6
> to run. Off this list I was sent the AB servo best wiring practices pdf
> which explained how to reduce noise in a servo drive enclosure. I
> followed the advise as much as possible and after removing all my ground
> wire antennas I was back running with an occasional sserial error. The
> short explanation is to terminate the shields to a ground plane as close
> as possible to the point where you take the shield/drain wire from the
> cable. I still have a cable bundle running to my switch box that is
> parallel wires and I might replace that with some twisted pairs. Photos
> at 11.
>
> JT

Everybody please trim advertising and other noise at the bottom or other 
parts that are not relevant in the replies.

-- 
Rafael

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Re: [Emc-users] Rewiring the BP Again

[Dave Cole]

My mistake, gotta clean my glasses apparently.

What are you using for axes drives?

Dave

On 1/10/2016 3:35 PM, John Thornton wrote:
> I don't have AB drives... I have a filter on my GS2 and another one
> after the control transformer.
>
> JT
>
> On 1/10/2016 11:40 AM, Dave Cole wrote:
>> Do you have filters just prior to the input power on the AB Servo drives?
>>
>> I've also had problems with Teco servo drives backfeeding noise into the
>> AC line and messing with Mesa boards.
>> An input filter from AD fixed that problem as well.
>>
>> Dave
>>
>> On 1/10/2016 6:44 AM, John Thornton wrote:
>>> Well none of the suggestions about star grounding did any good. In fact
>>> they made the problem worse than before, so bad I could not even get 2.6
>>> to run. Off this list I was sent the AB servo best wiring practices pdf
>>> which explained how to reduce noise in a servo drive enclosure. I
>>> followed the advise as much as possible and after removing all my ground
>>> wire antennas I was back running with an occasional sserial error. The
>>> short explanation is to terminate the shields to a ground plane as close
>>> as possible to the point where you take the shield/drain wire from the
>>> cable. I still have a cable bundle running to my switch box that is
>>> parallel wires and I might replace that with some twisted pairs. Photos
>>> at 11.
>>>
>>> JT
>>>
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Re: [Emc-users] Rewiring the BP Again

[John Thornton]

I don't have AB drives... I have a filter on my GS2 and another one 
after the control transformer.

JT

On 1/10/2016 11:40 AM, Dave Cole wrote:
> Do you have filters just prior to the input power on the AB Servo drives?
>
> I've also had problems with Teco servo drives backfeeding noise into the
> AC line and messing with Mesa boards.
> An input filter from AD fixed that problem as well.
>
> Dave
>
> On 1/10/2016 6:44 AM, John Thornton wrote:
>> Well none of the suggestions about star grounding did any good. In fact
>> they made the problem worse than before, so bad I could not even get 2.6
>> to run. Off this list I was sent the AB servo best wiring practices pdf
>> which explained how to reduce noise in a servo drive enclosure. I
>> followed the advise as much as possible and after removing all my ground
>> wire antennas I was back running with an occasional sserial error. The
>> short explanation is to terminate the shields to a ground plane as close
>> as possible to the point where you take the shield/drain wire from the
>> cable. I still have a cable bundle running to my switch box that is
>> parallel wires and I might replace that with some twisted pairs. Photos
>> at 11.
>>
>> JT
>>
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Re: [Emc-users] Rewiring the BP Again

[Dave Cole]

Do you have filters just prior to the input power on the AB Servo drives?

I've also had problems with Teco servo drives backfeeding noise into the 
AC line and messing with Mesa boards.
An input filter from AD fixed that problem as well.

Dave

On 1/10/2016 6:44 AM, John Thornton wrote:
> Well none of the suggestions about star grounding did any good. In fact
> they made the problem worse than before, so bad I could not even get 2.6
> to run. Off this list I was sent the AB servo best wiring practices pdf
> which explained how to reduce noise in a servo drive enclosure. I
> followed the advise as much as possible and after removing all my ground
> wire antennas I was back running with an occasional sserial error. The
> short explanation is to terminate the shields to a ground plane as close
> as possible to the point where you take the shield/drain wire from the
> cable. I still have a cable bundle running to my switch box that is
> parallel wires and I might replace that with some twisted pairs. Photos
> at 11.
>
> JT
>
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[Emc-users] help me MESA card select

[Horváth Csaba]

*would like to realize the set-up of the CNC mill You can find it in the
attachement.*
*Please help me to select which MESA controller cards would be the best
for this function.*
*The computer will be PC. In this PC there are 2 qty PCI expansion ports
and 2 qty PCIE 1x slot. Also ethernet connection can come into question.*
*The operating system will be Linux and the computer would work with
LinuxCNC program.*
*
*
*I have to convert a TDM1050MH mill, because the rotation of the spindle
stops during rotation (the control PC disables the spindle and doesn't
give an error signal), but the axis feed move along. Has anyone ever met
this kind of problem?*


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SYSTEM.pdf
Description: Adobe PDF document
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Re: [Emc-users] Resetting rotary movement count

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 10 January 2016 06:56:35 Erik Christiansen wrote:

> On 10.01.16 09:45, Marcus Bowman wrote:
> > On 10 Jan 2016, at 00:22, andy pugh wrote:
> > > On 5 January 2016 at 11:34, Dave Caroline 
 wrote:
> > >> Here is an example of with and without limits in a trunnion
> > >> design
> > >> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CNC-Rotary-Table-Dividing-Head-Rotation
> > >>al-Axis-4th-5th-Axis-A-B-Axis-100MM-Chuck-/161679996211
> >
> > That's an interesting configuration. There are a lot of small
> > attractive looking Chinese 4th axes at reasonable prices, but I do
> > have reservations. If I coudl be convinced they were accurate, I
> > would happily order one; but other Chinese accessories are not of
> > the standard to which I aspire, so I'm hesitant.
>
> ISTM that the table can only tilt +/- 45° or so. Since the need for a
> symmetrical swing is obviated by rotation of the chuck, I'd rather
> have one which could swing 90° one way, from horizontal to vertical.
>
> The coarser axis has a resolution of 0.3°, assuming 1.8° steppers, and
> holding accuracy will be a function of cutting forces, I figure. If
> anything finer than full steps are attempted, holding torque quickly
> goes downhill. A clamping brake on the table would be a handy
> addition. (A cone brake might might minimise misalignment as the brake
> is applied?)
>
> Erik

Depending on what you want to do. I see those as engraving only helpers 
as neither of the 3 choices on that page have motors big enough to have 
any REAL holding torque to resist even 0.125" carbide mills cutting 
forces.  A version like the British 230 priced one, where the limit of 
rotation for the second axis would be nominally +-360 degrees due to 
life considerations of its motor cable being externally twisted as it 
passes thru the hole in the carriage, makes far more sense, but needs 
scaled up about 4x to make room for additional gear down, and equipped 
with triple-stack, 500oz/in nema 23 motors.  With that scale up, one 
could have room for a pair of 8/1 reductions, which if the belts are 
tight enough, ought to be 0.0375 degree accurate.  I'd assume shop made, 
buying one like the 229 pound sterling one, scaled up big enough to just 
fit on my G0704's table would need the proverbial little red wagon 
loaded with $50 rolls of our dollar coins.  And making it might be fun!

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
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-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Rewiring the BP Again

[Bertho Stultiens]

On 01/10/2016 02:48 PM, Bertho Stultiens wrote:
> The sserial connection has a great potential for a loop. See attached
> image for illustration. The image has a shielded connection between two
> devices, which is good. However, the 0VDC connection (aka GND), which is
> embedded in the shielded connection is shorted outside the cable via a
> protective ground connection through the PSUs. This means that part of
> the signal return may circumvent the constraints of the signal cable and
> that creates an unbalanced path. Effectively, it means that the shield
> is now part of the cable's impedance, and that is guaranteed to be off
> by a factor.

The sserial connection is a differential line (like rs422 afaik). See
for example http://focus.ti.com/lit/an/slla070d/slla070d.pdf chapter
4.5. Scenario 4.5.2 will get you into trouble in noisy environments.


-- 
Greetings Bertho

(disclaimers are disclaimed)

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Re: [Emc-users] Rewiring the BP Again

[Bertho Stultiens]

On 01/10/2016 12:44 PM, John Thornton wrote:
> Well none of the suggestions about star grounding did any good. In
> fact they made the problem worse than before, so bad I could not even
> get 2.6 to run.

That may suggest a couple of things being wrong simultaneously:
1) you may still have loops in the 0VDC which are crossing power
domains. These /are/ hard to detect with many devices connected together;
2) there are impedance mismatches in the signal wiring (this one often
works together with 1);
3) shields may pick up noise they should reject.

The question is how to reduce the practical problems, not how to
eliminate all theoretical problems. That is the hard part.


> Off this list I was sent the AB servo best wiring practices pdf 
> which explained how to reduce noise in a servo drive enclosure. I 
> followed the advise as much as possible and after removing all my ground 
> wire antennas I was back running with an occasional sserial error. The 
> short explanation is to terminate the shields to a ground plane as close 
> as possible to the point where you take the shield/drain wire from the 
> cable. I still have a cable bundle running to my switch box that is 
> parallel wires and I might replace that with some twisted pairs. Photos 
> at 11.

You refer to this document?
http://literature.rockwellautomation.com/idc/groups/literature/documents/at/motion-at004_-en-p.pdf

That doc explains very well how to separate into different power zones.
Also, it makes a good case of shielding and how to do it properly. BTW,
note that it uses protective ground as shield potential and _not_ 0VDC.
That is also why the argument of two-sided termination of the shield is
appropriate (see page 21).

But all this does not save you from impedance problems. The sserial
errors are interesting because it is probably something you actually can
measure with an oscilloscope.

You should be able to see the signal integrity and whether you have
reflections of the signal at either end of the cable.

The sserial connection has a great potential for a loop. See attached
image for illustration. The image has a shielded connection between two
devices, which is good. However, the 0VDC connection (aka GND), which is
embedded in the shielded connection is shorted outside the cable via a
protective ground connection through the PSUs. This means that part of
the signal return may circumvent the constraints of the signal cable and
that creates an unbalanced path. Effectively, it means that the shield
is now part of the cable's impedance, and that is guaranteed to be off
by a factor.

You can check for this scenario by disconnecting the sserial connector
at one side and measure 0VDC vs protective ground on the connector on
the other side (and the other way around). You are in trouble when
measurements on both sides indicate a connection between 0VDC and
protective ground.

If you only have one PSU for both devices, then you are potentially also
in trouble. The PSU will then act as the loop facilitator (through two
distinct 0VDC connections). However, the effects are more subtle and
depend on coupling effects.

The rule for a shielded cable is that all energy must be contained
within the cable to be effective. In other words, the sum of all
currents in the cable's wires must be zero. Bypassing some of it may
cause impedance and therefore signal integrity problems.

-- 
Greetings Bertho

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Re: [Emc-users] Resetting rotary movement count

[Erik Christiansen]

On 10.01.16 09:45, Marcus Bowman wrote:
> On 10 Jan 2016, at 00:22, andy pugh wrote:
> 
> > On 5 January 2016 at 11:34, Dave Caroline  
> > wrote:
> >> Here is an example of with and without limits in a trunnion design
> >> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CNC-Rotary-Table-Dividing-Head-Rotational-Axis-4th-5th-Axis-A-B-Axis-100MM-Chuck-/161679996211
> > 
> That's an interesting configuration. There are a lot of small
> attractive looking Chinese 4th axes at reasonable prices, but I do
> have reservations. If I coudl be convinced they were accurate, I would
> happily order one; but other Chinese accessories are not of the
> standard to which I aspire, so I'm hesitant.

ISTM that the table can only tilt +/- 45° or so. Since the need for a
symmetrical swing is obviated by rotation of the chuck, I'd rather have
one which could swing 90° one way, from horizontal to vertical.

The coarser axis has a resolution of 0.3°, assuming 1.8° steppers, and
holding accuracy will be a function of cutting forces, I figure. If
anything finer than full steps are attempted, holding torque quickly
goes downhill. A clamping brake on the table would be a handy
addition. (A cone brake might might minimise misalignment as the brake
is applied?)

Erik

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[Emc-users] Rewiring the BP Again

[John Thornton]

Well none of the suggestions about star grounding did any good. In fact 
they made the problem worse than before, so bad I could not even get 2.6 
to run. Off this list I was sent the AB servo best wiring practices pdf 
which explained how to reduce noise in a servo drive enclosure. I 
followed the advise as much as possible and after removing all my ground 
wire antennas I was back running with an occasional sserial error. The 
short explanation is to terminate the shields to a ground plane as close 
as possible to the point where you take the shield/drain wire from the 
cable. I still have a cable bundle running to my switch box that is 
parallel wires and I might replace that with some twisted pairs. Photos 
at 11.

JT

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Re: [Emc-users] Rewiring the BP

[John Thornton]

Yes, and I need to start a new thread as new info has been received.

JT

On 1/9/2016 7:49 PM, Dave Cole wrote:
> Just saw your message.
>
> If you keep the VFD powered off, do you still have noise issues ??
>
> Dave
>
> On 1/4/2016 5:19 PM, John Thornton wrote:
>> I have 3 DC power supplies in the drive side, a 5vdc, a 24vdc, and a
>> 170vdc.
>>
>> The 5vdc power supply on the 0v side reads 37.6 ohms with the 0v and 5v
>> sides connected to the 7i77 5v plug. The 7i77 is the only thing it
>> powers up. When I unplug the 7i77 0v reads open so there is a path
>> through the 7i77 5v to ground.
>>
>> The 24vdc power supply is for the limit switches and push buttons. It
>> reads open from 0v to ground.
>>
>> The 170vdc power supply is a bridge rectifier with a large blue cap and
>> a power resistor. See the photo in the link of the current panel. I
>> can't tell which side should be 0v but both sides measure 0.65M ohms to
>> ground. I don't know if that is reading back through the bridge
>> rectifier or the drives. It only powers the three axis drives.
>>
>> Current panel layout http://gnipsel.com/images/bp-knee-mill/bpel06.jpg
>>
>> JT
>>
>> On 1/4/2016 10:48 AM, Bertho Stultiens wrote:
>>> On 01/04/2016 05:34 PM, John Thornton wrote:
 Well I grounded X2 to the main ground and when I started LinuxCNC and
 started to home I got the flurry of sserial errors. So I thought about
 it for a bit and maybe the ground from the computer case to the ground
 block was creating a ground loop so I took it off. Started LinuxCNC and
 immediately go a flurry of sserial errors which locks up LinuxCNC. Mind
 you this is with the 7i77ISOL card between the 5i25 and the 7i77 which
 is supposed to block any noise in the sserial communications. The X2 to
 ground has to go...

 I do have a 7i92 to test out...
>>> My guess is that you have more than one (ground-)loop. You also need to
>>> check how the 0V (DC) line interacts with other devices/converters etc.
>>> wrt. ground and see whether any of them also hook-up to ground somewhere
>>> along the wiring, PCBs or supplies.
>>>
>>> The second type of loops can be (entirely) in the 0V (DC) connection(s)
>>> where multiple paths, with different impedances, impair the integrity of
>>> the signal lines. You need to check how the different DC supplies
>>> interact with the connections as they are. The problem often becomes
>>> visible when you have both high- and low-power devices connecting and
>>> running on the same supply and have the 0V (DC) connected so that it
>>> (can) create(s) a loop.
>>>
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Re: [Emc-users] Resetting rotary movement count

[Marcus Bowman]

On 10 Jan 2016, at 00:22, andy pugh wrote:

> On 5 January 2016 at 11:34, Dave Caroline  wrote:
>> Here is an example of with and without limits in a trunnion design
>> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CNC-Rotary-Table-Dividing-Head-Rotational-Axis-4th-5th-Axis-A-B-Axis-100MM-Chuck-/161679996211
> 
That's an interesting configuration. There are a lot of small attractive 
looking Chinese 4th axes at reasonable prices, but I do have reservations. If I 
coudl be convinced they were accurate, I would happily order one; but other 
Chinese accessories are not of the standard to which I aspire, so I'm hesitant.

> Here is another, the B axis on this:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEsuTX6Empc
> 
Ah yes; Centroid. Gorgeous stuff. I've seen photos of their kit before, but 
that system with the clip-on t-slotted table looks very useful indeed, and it 
has given me some ideas.

Marcus

> I mention it as it is also a very simple and rigid one that would be
> an easy retrofit to many tilting-head mills.
> 
> -- 
> atp
> If you can't fix it, you don't own it.
> http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto
> 
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