Re: [Emc-users] Prempt RT on Linux Mint

[Nicklas Karlsson]

> For example, Digital minicomputers were much slower compared to PC 
> motherboards, yet they were able to handle industrial applications just 
> fine. Application ran in RT OS to handle DIO or analog signals.
> 
> Old PDP HW is getting replaced with special PC cards that are able to 
> run original software while generic Windows runs on the PC. No latency 
> issues. Same should be possible with LinuxCNC IMO.
> 
> > In practice few stepper systems have hardware that can follow even a
> > 50uS base-thread. I spend a lot of time on the forum saying "Stop
> > fiddling, it's fine as it is, get on with something productive"
> >
> 
> Agree. 3D printing world is growing precisely because of dedicated SBCs 
> built with low cost microcontrollers and motor drivers. They handle 
> everything including UI for selecting files from tiny memory cards.

If real time tasks is placed on micro controller which communicate with GUI on 
ordinary compute there will be: Communication, real time tasks and nothing 
else. It is simple and may be run with or even without operating system.

PC is mainly needed to connect user interface, like a screen.


> Large CNC systems require more computing power of course, but that too 
> should not be a problem for decent IO cards independent of motherboard 
> latency.

Well actually I expect more computing power will be needed in small machine 
where fast dynamic responce is required. I also expect more computing power is 
needed for complex kinematics like hexapod.

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Re: [Emc-users] Prempt RT on Linux Mint

[Nicklas Karlsson]

> > There are two or 3 that mention LinuxCNC as a possibility 
> > but they do not support it. Why? That's because NOBODY 
> > (manufacturers or distributors) wants to futz with testing 
> > motherboard latencies,
> Mach3 also required a motherboard with certain 
> characteristics, or the results could be anywhere from 
> mediocre to unusable.
> 
> Jon

I think some motherboards implement SMI in bios and every now and then they 
cause a delay equal to the time they take to execute.

Nicklas Karlsson

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Re: [Emc-users] Odd SSR behaviour?

[Jon Elson]

On 02/02/2016 10:03 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
>
> I believe they are. Would you like to see the .hal file?
Hmm, not sure I could tell much from it.  Is this using a 
Pico Systems PWM controller, or a Mesa board?  (I've lost 
track.) Following info assumes my PWM controller.  When you 
hit F2 to go from "machine on" to "machine off", then the 
PWM outputs are disabled, and so the PWM output goes to a 
low (zero Volts) state. That should turn off the transistors 
of the PWM servo amp, assuming the PWM output goes to the 
servo amp's PWM+ input, and the PWM- input is grounded.
When you hit F1 to go to the E-STOP state, then the PWM is 
forced to zero, all SSR drive signals are forced to the Hi-Z 
state.  The SSRs have the + terminal connected to +3.3 V, 
and the - terminal is grounded to turn the SSR on.
>
>> But, maybe there is a momentary bobble on the commands to
>> the SSRs when you click the button.
>> I'm guessing that means the E-stop button here.
>>
> Thats the second button in axis?  Just for grins I also tried the first
> button, identical results,
>
> The charge pump itself is on full time, at 500 Hz. I am gating it with
> and gates driven by timers.  That 500Hz is detected by charge pump
> detectors that have about 200 milliseconds of storage before they turn
> the SSR's off. So a wibble in the pump signal would have to be pretty
> drastic to effect them I think.  Those I can look at with halscope.
>
>
Charge pump?  You are sending this out on one of the digital 
outputs to an SSR?

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Odd SSR behaviour?

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 02 February 2016 22:31:51 Jon Elson wrote:

> On 02/02/2016 09:05 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > I don't hear it, but since they are toroids on ferrite cores, would
> > I hear that?  They are very quiet otherwise.
>
> Your power transformers are Ferrite?  Are you sure?  If
> these are Hammond toroids, they are wound up with a steel
> strip.  I can't imagine running a power supply at 60 Hz with
> a ferrite transformer.

I haven't uncovered the core, so you are likely correct and its a grain 
oriented silicon steel strip core.
>
> >> If the transformer is fed
> >> half-wave power, the core will saturate in barely more than
> >> one line cycle, and a tripped breaker seems quite likely.
> >> Zero-crossing SSRs are really NOT good for transformers,
> >> anyway, as they just about guarantee a saturated start for
> >> the transformer, anyway.  What you REALLY want is a relay
> >> that always closes on the voltage peak, but they don't make
> >> those.
> >
> > Noted previously.  And it hurts. I think that may be some fraction
> > of the why I had to put a 30 amp breaker on that circuit in the
> > first place.
> >
> > Bears investigating for sure, thanks Jon.
> >
> >> Anyway, it seems my idea would require only moving a couple
> >> wires, so you might try it.
> >>
> >> Jon
> >
> > I think that is what I have, but possibly not, Jon.  It wouldn't be
> > at all hard to fix in the event its not that way.  But again, it
> > runs all day, then trips the breaker coincident with ther button
> > click, seconds BEFORE either SSR is turned off.  Thats what doesn't
> > grok.  Weirdsville.
>
> Ahh, BEFORE the SSR is turned off.  Now, THAT is
> interesting!  I wonder if there is something that is fouling
> up the load side of the supply, like turning on BOTH the
> forward and reverse relays at the same time, or something
> crazy like that.

No relays, reverse goes straight to your pwm servo driver.   But its 
disabled for lack of drive long enough it needs rebooted. My hal file 
sequencing handles that.  Stopped kills the enable to your driver.

> Maybe the way the logic is set up the 
> E-stop condition is different from the "turn it off"
> condition.  Whatever the outputs do for E-stop should be the
> same as Off.

I believe they are. Would you like to see the .hal file?

> But, maybe there is a momentary bobble on the commands to
> the SSRs when you click the button.
> I'm guessing that means the E-stop button here.
>
Thats the second button in axis?  Just for grins I also tried the first 
button, identical results,

The charge pump itself is on full time, at 500 Hz. I am gating it with 
and gates driven by timers.  That 500Hz is detected by charge pump 
detectors that have about 200 milliseconds of storage before they turn 
the SSR's off. So a wibble in the pump signal would have to be pretty 
drastic to effect them I think.  Those I can look at with halscope.

Thanks Jon

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
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-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Prempt RT on Linux Mint

[Rafael]

On 02/02/2016 02:59 PM, andy pugh wrote:
> On 2 February 2016 at 22:45, Peter C. Wallace  wrote:
>> This might be true with parallel port software stepping systems that require 
>> a
>> high speed base thread for pulse generation and perhaps encoder counting,
>> but is not the case at all for servo thread only systems,
>

Parallel port is a monkey business. It was never meant to be used as 
such. I know, it started as a cheap IO for simple installations but 
that's not a viable solution now with FPG based interfaces such as Mesa 
cards, USB3.x, etc.

> I don't think that it is necessarily the case even with parport-only
> systems. There seems to be an obsession with getting super-low latency
> and a concomitant belief that unless you can get into single-digit
> microseconds you might as well give up.

Yes, this "obsession with low latency" is a concern that comes up on 
this mailing list every once in a while. PC architecture is not the best 
for handling RT, however, most CNC should not depend on millisecond 
latencies on generic motherboards. That should be handled by the 
interface/controller independently from programs running in user space. 
It makes no sense to me to use modern motherboard and enable only one 
CPU core out many to ensure RT and low latency.

For example, Digital minicomputers were much slower compared to PC 
motherboards, yet they were able to handle industrial applications just 
fine. Application ran in RT OS to handle DIO or analog signals.

Old PDP HW is getting replaced with special PC cards that are able to 
run original software while generic Windows runs on the PC. No latency 
issues. Same should be possible with LinuxCNC IMO.

> In practice few stepper systems have hardware that can follow even a
> 50uS base-thread. I spend a lot of time on the forum saying "Stop
> fiddling, it's fine as it is, get on with something productive"
>

Agree. 3D printing world is growing precisely because of dedicated SBCs 
built with low cost microcontrollers and motor drivers. They handle 
everything including UI for selecting files from tiny memory cards.

Large CNC systems require more computing power of course, but that too 
should not be a problem for decent IO cards independent of motherboard 
latency.


-- 
Rafael

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Re: [Emc-users] Prempt RT on Linux Mint

[Rafael]

On 02/02/2016 06:34 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
> On 02/02/2016 02:08 PM, Rafael wrote:
>> Why use this, why not use that? This is precisely why
>> LinuCNC has no traction in commercial products. Unless
>> things have changed in the last 2 months, you cannot find
>> a single CNC machine or good kit on the market that comes
>> with LinuxCNC.
> Have you checked with Tormach?  Novakon and Smithy also will
> sell machines with LinuxCNC pre-installed.  Sherline has
> been delivering CNC machines since the EMC2 days.

Those CNCs are not for woodworking. I was looking for a tested CNC kit 
for woodworking that would come with LinuxCNC. It's also hard to get 
Linux support in (parts of) EU.

Everybody over there knows Windows is crap but they depend on that 
option from local support that only comes from narrow minded people.

>> There are two or 3 that mention LinuxCNC as a possibility
>> but they do not support it. Why? That's because NOBODY
>> (manufacturers or distributors) wants to futz with testing
>> motherboard latencies,
> Mach3 also required a motherboard with certain
> characteristics, or the results could be anywhere from
> mediocre to unusable.
>
> Jon

Perhaps but it's available as the only official option on the mentioned 
CNCrouterparts site. And they support it! They don't mention need for 
specific motherboards. There is even "Ethernet SmoothStepper" that works 
over ethernet something discussed on this mailing list as a no-option 
for LinuxCNC.

Don't get me wrong, I want LinuxCNC to be widely adopted, it's just 
frustrating to put anything together. Kind of similar to Linux in 
general before adoption by large companies. CNC experiment can get 
costly very fast if you don't start on the right path.

-- 
Rafael

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Re: [Emc-users] Odd SSR behaviour?

[John Kasunich]

On Tue, Feb 2, 2016, at 10:22 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Tuesday 02 February 2016 21:55:10 Jon Elson wrote:
> 
> > Gene,
> >
> > One detail.  Is the breaker only tripping when you turn OFF
> > the SSR?
> 
> No Jon, I stretched the off delays, and the breaker is falling as soon as 
> I click the off button. Thats 3 to 5 seconds BEFORE either SSR is turned 
> off.  And that puts the puzzle in a brand new category. 

The breaker trips the instant you click a button on the screen.

You think the SSRs are being commanded to turn off several
seconds after you click the screen button.

There must be some faster path between the button click and
the breaker.  Your problem is to find it.  Assume nothing, trust
nothing.

Identify EVERY single output from the PC, no matter where you think
it goes and when you think it is supposed to change state.  Put a
meter (real, not HAL) on each output, one at a time (or better yet,
a scope).  Find the one that changes state (even if only for a few
micro-seconds) when you click your on-screen button.

Once you know what PC pin(s) change state at that instant,
we can start to figure out how that state change trips the breaker.
(Or it might become obvious)

When this was an intermittent problem it could have been a
nightmare to find.   Now that it is happening repeatably on 
command (when you click the on-screen button), it shouldn't
be terribly hard to track down.


John Kasunich
  John Kasunich
  jmkasun...@fastmail.fm

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Re: [Emc-users] Odd SSR behaviour?

[Jon Elson]

On 02/02/2016 09:05 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
>
> I don't hear it, but since they are toroids on ferrite cores, would I
> hear that?  They are very quiet otherwise.
Your power transformers are Ferrite?  Are you sure?  If 
these are Hammond toroids, they are wound up with a steel 
strip.  I can't imagine running a power supply at 60 Hz with 
a ferrite transformer.
>> If the transformer is fed
>> half-wave power, the core will saturate in barely more than
>> one line cycle, and a tripped breaker seems quite likely.
>> Zero-crossing SSRs are really NOT good for transformers,
>> anyway, as they just about guarantee a saturated start for
>> the transformer, anyway.  What you REALLY want is a relay
>> that always closes on the voltage peak, but they don't make
>> those.
> Noted previously.  And it hurts. I think that may be some fraction of the
> why I had to put a 30 amp breaker on that circuit in the first place.
>
> Bears investigating for sure, thanks Jon.
>
>> Anyway, it seems my idea would require only moving a couple
>> wires, so you might try it.
>>
>> Jon
>>
> I think that is what I have, but possibly not, Jon.  It wouldn't be at
> all hard to fix in the event its not that way.  But again, it runs all
> day, then trips the breaker coincident with ther button click, seconds
> BEFORE either SSR is turned off.  Thats what doesn't grok.  Weirdsville.
>
>
Ahh, BEFORE the SSR is turned off.  Now, THAT is 
interesting!  I wonder if there is something that is fouling 
up the load side of the supply, like turning on BOTH the 
forward and reverse relays at the same time, or something 
crazy like that.  Maybe the way the logic is set up the 
E-stop condition is different from the "turn it off" 
condition.  Whatever the outputs do for E-stop should be the 
same as Off.
But, maybe there is a momentary bobble on the commands to 
the SSRs when you click the button.
I'm guessing that means the E-stop button here.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Odd SSR behaviour?

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 02 February 2016 21:55:10 Jon Elson wrote:

> Gene,
>
> One detail.  Is the breaker only tripping when you turn OFF
> the SSR?

No Jon, I stretched the off delays, and the breaker is falling as soon as 
I click the off button. Thats 3 to 5 seconds BEFORE either SSR is turned 
off.  And that puts the puzzle in a brand new category.  I could easily 
believe the surge failure IF the breaker was falling coincident with  
turning off the SSR.  But this doesn't calculate at all.

> If so, this actually makes a lot of sense.  Some 
> SSRs have a self-protective function that turns the SSR on
> for a half-cycle if an overvoltage is experienced.  (This is
> usually an avalanche section built into the SCR or Triac
> component.)  If this gets triggered on shutoff of the
> transformer due to leakage inductance in the primary
> winding, it could get stuck in this mode until the breaker
> pops.  You might be able to fix it by putting a big snubber
> across the SSR.  Since the direct-feed SSR has a beefy
> resistor across it, it seems like it might be the SSR that
> is turned on first that would be susceptible to this mode.
> But, you might try it on both - or put it spanning BOTH
> SSRs.  Something like .01 uF and 10 Ohms in series might be
> where to start.
>
My hell-box doesn't have either of those in suitable voltage ratings.
I do have some 8 ohm 20 watters, probably inductive as they were sold as 
audio dummy loads by the Shack when we had one.  The caps would probably 
need to be kilovolt rated I'd imagine.

I'l check, and rewire if needed tomorrow on the other suggestion. I did 
have it timed so the one across the resistor was turned off first, 
leaving power on thru the resistor until that one shut down 1 second 
later, giving a "soft shutdown" as it were.

Thanks for the ideas Jon.  Appreciated.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
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-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Odd SSR behaviour?

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 02 February 2016 21:46:34 Jon Elson wrote:

> On 02/02/2016 06:14 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > It basically consists of two SSR's in series, the first one being
> > the main switch that enables AC power to reach the transformer by
> > way of a 51 Ohm 200 watt inrush limiting resistor.  And that after
> > the filters are charged, nominally 10 seconds, a second SSR is
> > fired to short that resistor, allowing the supply to make full
> > output. Controlled by a couple timers driven by the
> > motion.machine_is_on signal.
>
> Hmmm, maybe this is the problem.  Maybe, due to the way the
> zero-crossing circuits work, putting two SSRs in series
> totally fouls up the internal logic.  it seems you could put
> the two relays in parallel, one with the resistor in series
> with that relay.  So, you turn on the relays exactly as
> before.  the one with the series resistor first, then the
> one with no resistor.  My GUESS, and it IS a guess, is that
> somehow, with the two relays in series, and that they have
> zero voltage switching logic in them, that they fool each
> other and end up passing only half-wave power to the
> transformer. Does the transformer clunk right when this
> breaker-tripping event occurs?

I don't hear it, but since they are toroids on ferrite cores, would I 
hear that?  They are very quiet otherwise.

> If the transformer is fed 
> half-wave power, the core will saturate in barely more than
> one line cycle, and a tripped breaker seems quite likely.
> Zero-crossing SSRs are really NOT good for transformers,
> anyway, as they just about guarantee a saturated start for
> the transformer, anyway.  What you REALLY want is a relay
> that always closes on the voltage peak, but they don't make
> those.

Noted previously.  And it hurts. I think that may be some fraction of the 
why I had to put a 30 amp breaker on that circuit in the first place.

Bears investigating for sure, thanks Jon.

> Anyway, it seems my idea would require only moving a couple
> wires, so you might try it.
>
> Jon
>
I think that is what I have, but possibly not, Jon.  It wouldn't be at 
all hard to fix in the event its not that way.  But again, it runs all 
day, then trips the breaker coincident with ther button click, seconds 
BEFORE either SSR is turned off.  Thats what doesn't grok.  Weirdsville.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Prempt RT on Linux Mint

[Jim Craig]

On 2/2/2016 2:08 PM, Rafael wrote:
> Why use this, why not use that? This is precisely why LinuCNC has no
> traction in commercial products. Unless things have changed in the last
> 2 months, you cannot find a single CNC machine or good kit on the market
> that comes with LinuxCNC.
Incorrect. Tormach sells many machines that are operated with LinuxCNC. 
In fact they moved away from windows based controls because of stability 
issues.

>   There are two or 3 that mention LinuxCNC as a
> possibility but they do not support it. Why?
The main reason people don't want to deal with LinuxCNC is because they 
know nothing, or very little about it. And for that matter they don't 
want to know anything about it. Most of the non technical and even most 
of the technical world knows windows they don't know Linux.

Even more people are afraid of change. Especially when it is something 
that they don't really understand (Computers). Most of us on this list 
that use LinuxCNC are very computer literate and are not nearly as 
scared by a computer challenge. If we were we would not be on this list 
in the first place.

If you look at any forum involving mach or any other windows CNC 
controller they say that LinuxCNC is difficult to set up. If you are 
someone looking for a CNC controller and you see that you need to use an 
OS that you don't know with a piece of software that is difficult to set 
up what are you going to use? Of course this misinformation is biased 
and ignorant as probably the person posting it has never even tried 
LinuxCNC or they did a half hearted try at best. After using both mach 
and LinuxCNC, I don't agree with that statement at all. LinuxCNC is just 
as easy as Mach to set up. (and several hundred dollars less expensive)

As a manufacturer you are going to supply and support the product that 
appeals to the most people. Any Linux software will not appeal to more 
people than windows software because msoft has the the majority of the 
world brainwashed.

However if you are supplying a real production machine that needs to be 
reliable day in and day out you should be supplying LinuxCNC because the 
Linux OS is much more robust and reliable than any Windows OS.

The biggest issue with LinuxCNC as it currently stands is that for 
production shops to want to use it there needs to be a 24/7 support and 
On Site Support for the machine and the controller. This could come from 
the machine manufacturer but LinuxCNC.org is not able to provide the On 
Site Troubleshooting support that production shops need. Production 
shops prefer controls like Fanuc etc that have this type of support (at 
a huge cost). Machine downtime is big money to a production shop.

Just 2 cents from a hillbilly engineer.

Jim

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Re: [Emc-users] Odd SSR behaviour?

[Jon Elson]

Gene,

One detail.  Is the breaker only tripping when you turn OFF 
the SSR?  If so, this actually makes a lot of sense.  Some 
SSRs have a self-protective function that turns the SSR on 
for a half-cycle if an overvoltage is experienced.  (This is 
usually an avalanche section built into the SCR or Triac 
component.)  If this gets triggered on shutoff of the 
transformer due to leakage inductance in the primary 
winding, it could get stuck in this mode until the breaker 
pops.  You might be able to fix it by putting a big snubber 
across the SSR.  Since the direct-feed SSR has a beefy 
resistor across it, it seems like it might be the SSR that 
is turned on first that would be susceptible to this mode.  
But, you might try it on both - or put it spanning BOTH 
SSRs.  Something like .01 uF and 10 Ohms in series might be 
where to start.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Odd SSR behaviour?

[Jon Elson]

On 02/02/2016 06:14 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> It basically consists of two SSR's in series, the first one being
> the main switch that enables AC power to reach the transformer by
> way of a 51 Ohm 200 watt inrush limiting resistor.  And that after
> the filters are charged, nominally 10 seconds, a second SSR is
> fired to short that resistor, allowing the supply to make full
> output. Controlled by a couple timers driven by the
> motion.machine_is_on signal.
>
>
Hmmm, maybe this is the problem.  Maybe, due to the way the 
zero-crossing circuits work, putting two SSRs in series 
totally fouls up the internal logic.  it seems you could put 
the two relays in parallel, one with the resistor in series 
with that relay.  So, you turn on the relays exactly as 
before.  the one with the series resistor first, then the 
one with no resistor.  My GUESS, and it IS a guess, is that 
somehow, with the two relays in series, and that they have 
zero voltage switching logic in them, that they fool each 
other and end up passing only half-wave power to the 
transformer. Does the transformer clunk right when this 
breaker-tripping event occurs?  If the transformer is fed 
half-wave power, the core will saturate in barely more than 
one line cycle, and a tripped breaker seems quite likely.  
Zero-crossing SSRs are really NOT good for transformers, 
anyway, as they just about guarantee a saturated start for 
the transformer, anyway.  What you REALLY want is a relay 
that always closes on the voltage peak, but they don't make 
those.

Anyway, it seems my idea would require only moving a couple 
wires, so you might try it.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Odd SSR behaviour?

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 02 February 2016 21:29:20 Todd Zuercher wrote:

> These are guesses from the ignorant here; bad breaker (I've bought new
> duds before) or something back feeding into it???
>
I do have a couple more breakers, those skinny duals in a single place 
package.  15's IIRC but both on the same phase.  I'll put one of those 
in tomorrow as a check. But my point is, that at the time the breaker 
trips, no power controlling has actually been done, the SSR's are still 
fired.

I'll scout around and see if I can find another handybox and put that 
power cord on its own breaker while leaving the rest of that controlbox 
on the other 15 amp breaker in that dual package.  That way everything 
will stay on the same leg of the 240 feed from the pole.  Then we'll see 
which breaker trips.  That would be educational in itself.

> - Original Message -
> From: "Gene Heskett" 
> To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> Sent: Tuesday, February 2, 2016 7:14:00 PM
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Odd SSR behaviour?
>
> On Monday 01 February 2016 19:09:51 Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Monday 01 February 2016 17:49:01 John Kasunich wrote:
> > > On Mon, Feb 1, 2016, at 05:31 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > > > Greetings;
> > > >
> > > > Those of you reading the mail know I made a soft start circuit
> > > > for the spindle PSU.
> > > >
> > > > It basically consists of two SSR's in series, the first one
> > > > being the main switch that enables AC power to reach the
> > > > transformer by way of a 51 Ohm 200 watt inrush limiting
> > > > resistor.  And that after the filters are charged, nominally 10
> > > > seconds, a second SSR is fired to short that resistor, allowing
> > > > the supply to make full output. Controlled by a couple timers
> > > > driven by the
> > > > motion.machine_is_on signal.
> > > >
> > > > I had set the timers for a fairly speedy off, with the SSR
> > > > across te resistor being the first one turned off if I unclicked
> > > > the 2nd button, followed 5 seconds later by the first SSR being
> > > > shut down. Sort of a soft stop I guess.
> > > >
> > > > But today in playing with the pyvcp-pannel, I turned it off with
> > > > the 2nd button, and the 20 amp breaker I had put back in the
> > > > service to replace the ill eagle 30 amp dropped instantly.  And
> > > > repeated everytime I stopped it with that button, 100% of the
> > > > time.
> > > >
> > > > I cannot imagine where a momentary short might be.  So I piddled
> > > > with the setp's in the hal file so the softstart SSR was left on
> > > > for about 5 seconds, but the main SSR was disabled in about .5
> > > > seconds, so that main power was disabled before the soft-start
> > > > SSR was disabled.
> > > >
> > > > Now its not tripping the breaker, which is cool.  But the
> > > > question is, why did it trip 100% of the time before I did that?
> > > >
> > > > Other than an SSR surge internal breakdown to the case & sink, I
> > > > cannot come up with a valid reason for that behaviour.
> > >
> > > These have metal baseplates?
> >
> > Yes, bolted to the case, more for solid mounting than any need for a
> > heat sink.  No detectable heat.
> >
> > > Connected to grounded sinks?  You
> > > could rule out a breakdown to sink if you temporarily insulated
> > > the sinks from ground and went back to the old configuration.  A
> > > single breaker trip with the sinks floating would tend to rule out
> > > that possibility.
> > >
> > > Is there ANY path from incoming line to neutral (or the other
> > > phase, if this is a 240V circuit)
> >
> > Upstream of the first SSR is where the switcher supplies for the
> > axis motors are fed.  They come on with the strip switch.  Nothing
> > beyond the SSR's except the transformers, which are identical, 4 of
> > them with primaries paralleled, and each secondary has its own
> > rectifier and filter bank, which are then connected in 2 in series
> > and 2 sets of that paralleled to double the available voltage and
> > double the available current.  Available DC is in the 126 volt
> > range, available current on a 50% duty cycle is about 20-25 amps. 
> > Jon's PWM servo is the driver, set for about a 15 amp current limit.
> >  The servo amp is the only load and it would normally be disabled,
> > drawing essentially zero current when the spindle is stopped.
> >
> > > that doesn't go through the transformer?
> > > If the answer is no (it seems that way from your description), and
> > > the fault current isn't flowing thru the case of the SSR, then it
> > > must be flowing thru the transformer.  The only way the
> > > transformer should draw that kind of current is for a cycle or two
> > > at startup, or if the core saturates due to a large DC component. 
> > > Is it possible that one or both SSRs is only conducting on one
> > > half of the AC waveform?
> >
> > Both tally leds on the SSR's are nice & bright, and the same
> > brightness as its twin when both are enegized.  I haven't looked at
> > it with a scope in about a month & then

Re: [Emc-users] Prempt RT on Linux Mint

[Jon Elson]

On 02/02/2016 02:08 PM, Rafael wrote:
> Why use this, why not use that? This is precisely why 
> LinuCNC has no traction in commercial products. Unless 
> things have changed in the last 2 months, you cannot find 
> a single CNC machine or good kit on the market that comes 
> with LinuxCNC.
Have you checked with Tormach?  Novakon and Smithy also will 
sell machines with LinuxCNC pre-installed.  Sherline has 
been delivering CNC machines since the EMC2 days.
> There are two or 3 that mention LinuxCNC as a possibility 
> but they do not support it. Why? That's because NOBODY 
> (manufacturers or distributors) wants to futz with testing 
> motherboard latencies,
Mach3 also required a motherboard with certain 
characteristics, or the results could be anywhere from 
mediocre to unusable.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] 7i43 encoder count failures

[Jon Elson]

On 02/02/2016 01:07 PM, Marius Alksnys wrote:
> How would you explain that when parallel port transfers data 8 bytes at
> a time and I get errors only in one bit through 3 bytes at least?
>
>
As Peter says, the counters on the board are 16 bits.  if 
the highest bit is read incorrectly, then the wider value 
handled by the LinuxCNC driver could trigger the 
carry/borrow logic, and produce this exact result.  
Incorrect reads of lesser-significant bits would cause 
transient jumps that would return to the right value on the 
next servo cycle.  These should be easily seen in Halscope 
traces. But, if the error causes the
carry/borrow logic, it will result in a permanent shift in 
the position as kept by LinuxCNC.

(I saw the same thing on my system several months ago, and 
traced it to a bad solder joint on the DB-25 connector.)

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Odd SSR behaviour?

[Todd Zuercher]

These are guesses from the ignorant here; bad breaker (I've bought new duds 
before) or something back feeding into it???

- Original Message -
From: "Gene Heskett" 
To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Sent: Tuesday, February 2, 2016 7:14:00 PM
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Odd SSR behaviour?

On Monday 01 February 2016 19:09:51 Gene Heskett wrote:

> On Monday 01 February 2016 17:49:01 John Kasunich wrote:
> > On Mon, Feb 1, 2016, at 05:31 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > > Greetings;
> > >
> > > Those of you reading the mail know I made a soft start circuit for
> > > the spindle PSU.
> > >
> > > It basically consists of two SSR's in series, the first one being
> > > the main switch that enables AC power to reach the transformer by
> > > way of a 51 Ohm 200 watt inrush limiting resistor.  And that after
> > > the filters are charged, nominally 10 seconds, a second SSR is
> > > fired to short that resistor, allowing the supply to make full
> > > output. Controlled by a couple timers driven by the
> > > motion.machine_is_on signal.
> > >
> > > I had set the timers for a fairly speedy off, with the SSR across
> > > te resistor being the first one turned off if I unclicked the 2nd
> > > button, followed 5 seconds later by the first SSR being shut down.
> > > Sort of a soft stop I guess.
> > >
> > > But today in playing with the pyvcp-pannel, I turned it off with
> > > the 2nd button, and the 20 amp breaker I had put back in the
> > > service to replace the ill eagle 30 amp dropped instantly.  And
> > > repeated everytime I stopped it with that button, 100% of the
> > > time.
> > >
> > > I cannot imagine where a momentary short might be.  So I piddled
> > > with the setp's in the hal file so the softstart SSR was left on
> > > for about 5 seconds, but the main SSR was disabled in about .5
> > > seconds, so that main power was disabled before the soft-start SSR
> > > was disabled.
> > >
> > > Now its not tripping the breaker, which is cool.  But the question
> > > is, why did it trip 100% of the time before I did that?
> > >
> > > Other than an SSR surge internal breakdown to the case & sink, I
> > > cannot come up with a valid reason for that behaviour.
> >
> > These have metal baseplates?
>
> Yes, bolted to the case, more for solid mounting than any need for a
> heat sink.  No detectable heat.
>
> > Connected to grounded sinks?  You
> > could rule out a breakdown to sink if you temporarily insulated the
> > sinks from ground and went back to the old configuration.  A single
> > breaker trip with the sinks floating would tend to rule out that
> > possibility.
> >
> > Is there ANY path from incoming line to neutral (or the other phase,
> > if this is a 240V circuit)
>
> Upstream of the first SSR is where the switcher supplies for the axis
> motors are fed.  They come on with the strip switch.  Nothing beyond
> the SSR's except the transformers, which are identical, 4 of them with
> primaries paralleled, and each secondary has its own rectifier and
> filter bank, which are then connected in 2 in series and 2 sets of
> that paralleled to double the available voltage and double the
> available current.  Available DC is in the 126 volt range, available
> current on a 50% duty cycle is about 20-25 amps.  Jon's PWM servo is
> the driver, set for about a 15 amp current limit.  The servo amp is
> the only load and it would normally be disabled, drawing essentially
> zero current when the spindle is stopped.
>
> > that doesn't go through the transformer?
> > If the answer is no (it seems that way from your description), and
> > the fault current isn't flowing thru the case of the SSR, then it
> > must be flowing thru the transformer.  The only way the transformer
> > should draw that kind of current is for a cycle or two at startup,
> > or if the core saturates due to a large DC component.  Is it
> > possible that one or both SSRs is only conducting on one half of the
> > AC waveform?
>
> Both tally leds on the SSR's are nice & bright, and the same
> brightness as its twin when both are enegized.  I haven't looked at it
> with a scope in about a month & then I could just barely discern the
> cross-over zero but had to really look close.
>
> It appears I have solved the breaker tripping, but I'd sure like to
> know why.  I have that "waiting for the other shoe to drop" feeling.
> :(
>
No, not fixed. The other first shoe is dropping, repeatedly.

And now I am bumfuzzled.  I moved the monitors power cord to a socket 
that doesn't die when that breaker trips.  So I can now watch things 
with a halmeter while I turn it off.

Then I stretched the off times of the SSR driver timers,  to 2.5 seconds 
and 5 seconds after I click on the 2nd from the left axis top row icon.

The breaker trips milliseconds after I click on the icon, regardless of 
the off times set in the two timers. I can see the breaker is tripped, 
turn my head back to the monitor and the halmeters, and watch the signal 
to both ssr's stop a from a second to 3 lat

Re: [Emc-users] Prempt RT on Linux Mint

[W. Martinjak]

On 2016-02-02 23:59, andy pugh wrote:
> On 2 February 2016 at 22:45, Peter C. Wallace  wrote:
>> This might be true with parallel port software stepping systems that require 
>> a
>> high speed base thread for pulse generation and perhaps encoder counting,
>> but is not the case at all for servo thread only systems,
> I spend a lot of time on the forum saying "Stop
> fiddling, it's fine as it is, get on with something productive"
>

Hehe, you mean "Stop fiddling with computer problems, get on with fiddling 
mechanical problems"
:)
The problem of this perpetual discussions is,
all are right with their views but just to prove the own view some points are 
omitted.


-- 
"In der Wissenschaft siegt nie eine neue Theorie,
nur ihre Gegner sterben nach und nach"

Max Planck


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Re: [Emc-users] Odd SSR behaviour?

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 01 February 2016 19:09:51 Gene Heskett wrote:

> On Monday 01 February 2016 17:49:01 John Kasunich wrote:
> > On Mon, Feb 1, 2016, at 05:31 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > > Greetings;
> > >
> > > Those of you reading the mail know I made a soft start circuit for
> > > the spindle PSU.
> > >
> > > It basically consists of two SSR's in series, the first one being
> > > the main switch that enables AC power to reach the transformer by
> > > way of a 51 Ohm 200 watt inrush limiting resistor.  And that after
> > > the filters are charged, nominally 10 seconds, a second SSR is
> > > fired to short that resistor, allowing the supply to make full
> > > output. Controlled by a couple timers driven by the
> > > motion.machine_is_on signal.
> > >
> > > I had set the timers for a fairly speedy off, with the SSR across
> > > te resistor being the first one turned off if I unclicked the 2nd
> > > button, followed 5 seconds later by the first SSR being shut down.
> > > Sort of a soft stop I guess.
> > >
> > > But today in playing with the pyvcp-pannel, I turned it off with
> > > the 2nd button, and the 20 amp breaker I had put back in the
> > > service to replace the ill eagle 30 amp dropped instantly.  And
> > > repeated everytime I stopped it with that button, 100% of the
> > > time.
> > >
> > > I cannot imagine where a momentary short might be.  So I piddled
> > > with the setp's in the hal file so the softstart SSR was left on
> > > for about 5 seconds, but the main SSR was disabled in about .5
> > > seconds, so that main power was disabled before the soft-start SSR
> > > was disabled.
> > >
> > > Now its not tripping the breaker, which is cool.  But the question
> > > is, why did it trip 100% of the time before I did that?
> > >
> > > Other than an SSR surge internal breakdown to the case & sink, I
> > > cannot come up with a valid reason for that behaviour.
> >
> > These have metal baseplates?
>
> Yes, bolted to the case, more for solid mounting than any need for a
> heat sink.  No detectable heat.
>
> > Connected to grounded sinks?  You
> > could rule out a breakdown to sink if you temporarily insulated the
> > sinks from ground and went back to the old configuration.  A single
> > breaker trip with the sinks floating would tend to rule out that
> > possibility.
> >
> > Is there ANY path from incoming line to neutral (or the other phase,
> > if this is a 240V circuit)
>
> Upstream of the first SSR is where the switcher supplies for the axis
> motors are fed.  They come on with the strip switch.  Nothing beyond
> the SSR's except the transformers, which are identical, 4 of them with
> primaries paralleled, and each secondary has its own rectifier and
> filter bank, which are then connected in 2 in series and 2 sets of
> that paralleled to double the available voltage and double the
> available current.  Available DC is in the 126 volt range, available
> current on a 50% duty cycle is about 20-25 amps.  Jon's PWM servo is
> the driver, set for about a 15 amp current limit.  The servo amp is
> the only load and it would normally be disabled, drawing essentially
> zero current when the spindle is stopped.
>
> > that doesn't go through the transformer?
> > If the answer is no (it seems that way from your description), and
> > the fault current isn't flowing thru the case of the SSR, then it
> > must be flowing thru the transformer.  The only way the transformer
> > should draw that kind of current is for a cycle or two at startup,
> > or if the core saturates due to a large DC component.  Is it
> > possible that one or both SSRs is only conducting on one half of the
> > AC waveform?
>
> Both tally leds on the SSR's are nice & bright, and the same
> brightness as its twin when both are enegized.  I haven't looked at it
> with a scope in about a month & then I could just barely discern the
> cross-over zero but had to really look close.
>
> It appears I have solved the breaker tripping, but I'd sure like to
> know why.  I have that "waiting for the other shoe to drop" feeling.
> :(
>
No, not fixed. The other first shoe is dropping, repeatedly.

And now I am bumfuzzled.  I moved the monitors power cord to a socket 
that doesn't die when that breaker trips.  So I can now watch things 
with a halmeter while I turn it off.

Then I stretched the off times of the SSR driver timers,  to 2.5 seconds 
and 5 seconds after I click on the 2nd from the left axis top row icon.

The breaker trips milliseconds after I click on the icon, regardless of 
the off times set in the two timers. I can see the breaker is tripped, 
turn my head back to the monitor and the halmeters, and watch the signal 
to both ssr's stop a from a second to 3 later.

I am NOT controlling power to the steppers, they come on and go off with 
a switch on a power strip that controls this whole box full of stuff.

I do not see the spindle motor jump, primarily because when the spindle 
is stopped, its completely stopped, disabled and has to have the initial 
b

Re: [Emc-users] Prempt RT on Linux Mint

[Nicklas Karlsson]

> ... There seems to be an obsession with getting super-low latency
> and a concomitant belief that unless you can get into single-digit
> microseconds you might as well give up.

It is small delays happening every now and then that cause problem, there migth 
be in average one warning per minute for these.

A perfect example of a real time task is a receive buffer communication port 
which will trigger a task then half hulf. If dead line is missed data is gone 
and need to be sent again.


Nicklas Karlsson

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Re: [Emc-users] Prempt RT --> RTAI, Xenomai, delay

[Nicklas Karlsson]

> > Preempt RT do not manage priorities properly for interrupts while RTAI and 
> > Xenomai do. It is rather simple, execution time to service an interupt 
> > every 
> > now and then will delay real time tasks with as much time as they take to 
> > execute. Then there are SMI which will interrupt anyway. I run control loop 
> > at micro controller at 40kHz and it works perfect because it allow nested 
> > interrupts with priority.
> >
> 
> umm not true at all
> 
> http://freeby.mesanet.com/h97-g3258-preemt-rt.png
> 
> RTAI is not significantly better on decent modern hardware
> 
> Many PC latency issues are hardware related (DMA, Caching etc) and affect 
> Preempt-RT, RTAI and Xenomai equally

These times seems really good but the last time I read about Preempt RT they 
had chosen not to manage interrupt properly. If interrupts are allowed to 
interrupt real time tasks this time need to be added. In particular period must 
be longer than interrupt execution time or sometimes dead line will be missed.

There are tasks with real time demands in ordinary operating systems also. Like 
receive buffer for digital communication so it is possible modern hardware have 
spent some time to get rid of these kind of small problems.

Jitter is less important. Delay longer than period is a problem. I expect 
jitter in all tasks except the highest priority.


Nicklas Karlsson

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Re: [Emc-users] Prempt RT on Linux Mint

[andy pugh]

On 2 February 2016 at 22:45, Peter C. Wallace  wrote:
> This might be true with parallel port software stepping systems that require a
> high speed base thread for pulse generation and perhaps encoder counting,
> but is not the case at all for servo thread only systems,


I don't think that it is necessarily the case even with parport-only
systems. There seems to be an obsession with getting super-low latency
and a concomitant belief that unless you can get into single-digit
microseconds you might as well give up.
In practice few stepper systems have hardware that can follow even a
50uS base-thread. I spend a lot of time on the forum saying "Stop
fiddling, it's fine as it is, get on with something productive"

-- 
atp
If you can't fix it, you don't own it.
http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto

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Re: [Emc-users] Prempt RT on Linux Mint

[Peter C. Wallace]

On Tue, 2 Feb 2016, Rafael wrote:

> Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2016 12:08:59 -0800
> From: Rafael 
> Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
> 
> To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Prempt RT on Linux Mint
>LinuxCNC and similar products need to run and be supported for 10+ years 
>in order to be accepted by the industry. So far I mostly see LinuxCNC 
>being used for retrofits of all kinds of old machines. That's great but 
>it is not available in new machines.
>
>Take http://www.cncrouterparts.com for example. They will tell you (at a 
>trade show) it's possible to use LinuxCNC but they do not provide such a 
>solution. They do support commercial program on alternative OS and USB 
>connection. Why? It's too hard to meet LinuxCNC related hardware 
>requirements. Especially motherboards.

This might be true with parallel port software stepping systems that require a 
high speed base thread for pulse generation and perhaps encoder counting,
but is not the case at all for servo thread only systems, that is systems
that have hardware step generation and encoder counting or Ethercat based 
systems where all the high speed logic is on the drive.

Almost any current motherboard will work with acceptable latency for a servo 
thread only system. With the right I/O hardware and tuning, 100s of usec of
jitter can be tolerated meaning its difficult to find a motherboard 
that does not work


Peter Wallace
Mesa Electronics

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Re: [Emc-users] Prempt RT --> RTAI, Xenomai, delay

[Peter C. Wallace]

On Tue, 2 Feb 2016, Nicklas Karlsson wrote:

> Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2016 22:27:59 +0100
> From: Nicklas Karlsson 
> Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
> 
> To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Prempt RT --> RTAI, Xenomai, delay
> 
>> ...
>> That's because NOBODY (manufacturers or distributors) wants to futz with
>> testing motherboard latencies, problems with their obsolescence, IO
>> boards, controllers, USB issues, etc. All that is a big concern to
>> anybody who wants to see LinuxCNC as part of their business.
>
> Preempt RT do not manage priorities properly for interrupts while RTAI and 
> Xenomai do. It is rather simple, execution time to service an interupt every 
> now and then will delay real time tasks with as much time as they take to 
> execute. Then there are SMI which will interrupt anyway. I run control loop 
> at micro controller at 40kHz and it works perfect because it allow nested 
> interrupts with priority.
>

umm not true at all

http://freeby.mesanet.com/h97-g3258-preemt-rt.png

RTAI is not significantly better on decent modern hardware

Many PC latency issues are hardware related (DMA, Caching etc) and affect 
Preempt-RT, RTAI and Xenomai equally

>> ...
>
>
> Nicklas Karlsson

Peter Wallace
Mesa Electronics



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Re: [Emc-users] Prempt RT --> RTAI, Xenomai, delay

[Ralph Stirling]

Nicklas,

There is a fork of LinuxCNC called Machinekit.  The Machinekit developers
have the system running on BeagleBoneBlack sbc's and RaspberryPi2's.
They also have the real-time portions running on FPGA's.  One effort
involves using System-On-Chip FPGAs, which include ARM processor cores.
The real-time activity is implemented directly in FPGA hardware, and the
non-real-time actions run under Linux on the ARM core.  If you are interested
in CNC on microcontrollers, you should go check out Machinekit.

-- Ralph

From: Nicklas Karlsson [nicklas.karlsso...@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2016 1:27 PM
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Prempt RT --> RTAI, Xenomai, delay

> ...
> That's because NOBODY (manufacturers or distributors) wants to futz with
> testing motherboard latencies, problems with their obsolescence, IO
> boards, controllers, USB issues, etc. All that is a big concern to
> anybody who wants to see LinuxCNC as part of their business.

Preempt RT do not manage priorities properly for interrupts while RTAI and 
Xenomai do. It is rather simple, execution time to service an interupt every 
now and then will delay real time tasks with as much time as they take to 
execute. Then there are SMI which will interrupt anyway. I run control loop at 
micro controller at 40kHz and it works perfect because it allow nested 
interrupts with priority.

> ...

> In addition, I believe that linuxCNC needs to be split into two parts
> and "sold as such" by default:
> - headless LinuxCNC with hard RT kernel to run on different SBCs to
> handle all CNC IO

There are cheap development board with micro controllers available. Most of 
them use some kind of Cortex-* CPU with an NVIC for nested interrupts with 
priority which is really great for real time even though they have a lot less 
computing power avaiable than an ordinary computer.

I would suggest to investigate possibility to separate code so that the real 
time tasks could be run on an micro controller. There also development boards 
available with extra ram so that they can run Linux, maybe even X11 would be 
possible.

> - GUI frontend, local or remote, connected to Linux workstation or
> modern tablet over USB, ethernet, or WiFi. Countless digital tablets can
> be had for under $100 that could serve as CNC UI.

GUI could stay on ordinary computer while real time taska move to cortex-* 
micro controller, they talk via TCP/IP and maybe even X11.

> ...


Nicklas Karlsson

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Re: [Emc-users] Prempt RT on Linux Mint

[Stuart Stevenson]

answer/comment in line

On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 2:08 PM, Rafael  wrote:

> On 02/02/2016 04:56 AM, Sarah Armstrong wrote:
> > i dont see why not , but the patch will be different probably , i'd need
> to
> > try it
> > why use ubuntu ? , thats another can of worms to get in the way .
> >
> > debian now has the 2 desktops that minit as
> >
>
> Why use this, why not use that? This is precisely why LinuCNC has no
> traction in commercial products. Unless things have changed in the last
> 2 months, you cannot find a single CNC machine or good kit on the market
> that comes with LinuxCNC. There are two or 3 that mention LinuxCNC as a
> possibility but they do not support it. Why?
>

There is no market for commercial LinuxCNC.
I have considered it.
I even had a commitment by a machine manufacturer to supply me with new
machines without controls.
Maybe there would be a market. Maybe I just didn't want to do it. Maybe I
just don't care if there is or is not a market.
Probably because I like it the way it is.


>
> That's because NOBODY (manufacturers or distributors) wants to futz with
> testing motherboard latencies, problems with their obsolescence, IO
> boards, controllers, USB issues, etc. All that is a big concern to
> anybody who wants to see LinuxCNC as part of their business.
>

If one could identify a market and wanted to do it then it would exist no
matter the obstacles.


>
> I asked a number of manufacturers at Makerfaire and other trade shows
> and they either don't know about linuxCNC or simply state it's not a
> good option for them. They all use something or the other that runs on
> Windows PCs only.
>

The people at Makefaire and other trade shows have a different agenda.
Their focus is the products the control is included in or the products made
with the controls.
LinuxCNC is the focus of most everyone using LinuxCNC.


>
> LinuxCNC and similar products need to run and be supported for 10+ years
> in order to be accepted by the industry. So far I mostly see LinuxCNC
> being used for retrofits of all kinds of old machines. That's great but
> it is not available in new machines.
>
I agree. It allows someone to scratch the itch of putting together a cheap
machine AND making the machine to intensely sweet things.


>
> Take http://www.cncrouterparts.com for example. They will tell you (at a
> trade show) it's possible to use LinuxCNC but they do not provide such a
> solution. They do support commercial program on alternative OS and USB
> connection. Why? It's too hard to meet LinuxCNC related hardware
> requirements. Especially motherboards.
>
It is not difficult to run LinuxCNC on most any motherboard.
If you can accept less than hard real time control then LinuxCNC will do
anything and more than any other control on the market.
When you MUST have fast, hard real time control then LinuxCNC is the ONLY
answer. This drives the 'hard to meet' requirements of LinuxCNC.
The LinuxCNC world does emphasize the hard real time world while telling
people it might be better to use a different product if you don't need the
capabilities of LinuxCNC. I certainly don't disagree with this.
I would venture to say most of the people in the 'other than LinuxCNC'
world would not recognize problems related to less than real time control
issues. The motion issues and any other issues would not be a problem to
most of them.
So what? Who cares - if they are happy with what they have and do not feel
the need to research it any farther the let them be.


> This is where my problem lies. When I tried to recommend a kit like the
> above to a relative in EU, I get a question about software support right
> away. They could put HW things together, but there is also software.
> They would be OK with LinuxCNC based on my recommendation but I cannot
> be there to help put things together. The easiest option for them
> becomes a machine with software that only runs on Windows even though it
> becomes obsolete or unsupported in a couple of years. I'm sure this is
> not an isolated case.
>
In my opinion software support is one of the strong suits of LinuxCNC. You
ask for help - you get help. Many times you are overwhelmed with help.
There is not just one source for help. You find help all over the world.
If you do not wish to learn about the software and how to manipulate it
then you will have problems with ANY control you wish to install.
Every control needs some type of configuration to tune it to the machine.
If you refuse to learn how to configure whichever software you choose to
use then you will be very handicapped trying to use the control and machine.


>
> Somebody mentioned about his interest in starting LinuxCNC related
> business last summer if I remember correctly. I did not see any
> enthusiastic support for his idea on this list. I hope that this is
> changing with "Mesa Reseller in America​", a good start but it's not a
> complete solution. I wish John Thornton well, to run successful
> business, and possibly expand on hi

Re: [Emc-users] Prempt RT --> RTAI, Xenomai, delay

[Nicklas Karlsson]

> ...
> That's because NOBODY (manufacturers or distributors) wants to futz with 
> testing motherboard latencies, problems with their obsolescence, IO 
> boards, controllers, USB issues, etc. All that is a big concern to 
> anybody who wants to see LinuxCNC as part of their business.

Preempt RT do not manage priorities properly for interrupts while RTAI and 
Xenomai do. It is rather simple, execution time to service an interupt every 
now and then will delay real time tasks with as much time as they take to 
execute. Then there are SMI which will interrupt anyway. I run control loop at 
micro controller at 40kHz and it works perfect because it allow nested 
interrupts with priority.

> ...

> In addition, I believe that linuxCNC needs to be split into two parts 
> and "sold as such" by default:
> - headless LinuxCNC with hard RT kernel to run on different SBCs to 
> handle all CNC IO

There are cheap development board with micro controllers available. Most of 
them use some kind of Cortex-* CPU with an NVIC for nested interrupts with 
priority which is really great for real time even though they have a lot less 
computing power avaiable than an ordinary computer.

I would suggest to investigate possibility to separate code so that the real 
time tasks could be run on an micro controller. There also development boards 
available with extra ram so that they can run Linux, maybe even X11 would be 
possible.

> - GUI frontend, local or remote, connected to Linux workstation or 
> modern tablet over USB, ethernet, or WiFi. Countless digital tablets can 
> be had for under $100 that could serve as CNC UI.

GUI could stay on ordinary computer while real time taska move to cortex-* 
micro controller, they talk via TCP/IP and maybe even X11.

> ...


Nicklas Karlsson

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Re: [Emc-users] Prempt RT on Linux Mint

[Rafael]

On 02/02/2016 04:56 AM, Sarah Armstrong wrote:
> i dont see why not , but the patch will be different probably , i'd need to
> try it
> why use ubuntu ? , thats another can of worms to get in the way .
>
> debian now has the 2 desktops that minit as
>

Why use this, why not use that? This is precisely why LinuCNC has no 
traction in commercial products. Unless things have changed in the last 
2 months, you cannot find a single CNC machine or good kit on the market 
that comes with LinuxCNC. There are two or 3 that mention LinuxCNC as a 
possibility but they do not support it. Why?

That's because NOBODY (manufacturers or distributors) wants to futz with 
testing motherboard latencies, problems with their obsolescence, IO 
boards, controllers, USB issues, etc. All that is a big concern to 
anybody who wants to see LinuxCNC as part of their business.

I asked a number of manufacturers at Makerfaire and other trade shows 
and they either don't know about linuxCNC or simply state it's not a 
good option for them. They all use something or the other that runs on 
Windows PCs only.

LinuxCNC and similar products need to run and be supported for 10+ years 
in order to be accepted by the industry. So far I mostly see LinuxCNC 
being used for retrofits of all kinds of old machines. That's great but 
it is not available in new machines.

Take http://www.cncrouterparts.com for example. They will tell you (at a 
trade show) it's possible to use LinuxCNC but they do not provide such a 
solution. They do support commercial program on alternative OS and USB 
connection. Why? It's too hard to meet LinuxCNC related hardware 
requirements. Especially motherboards.

This is where my problem lies. When I tried to recommend a kit like the 
above to a relative in EU, I get a question about software support right 
away. They could put HW things together, but there is also software. 
They would be OK with LinuxCNC based on my recommendation but I cannot 
be there to help put things together. The easiest option for them 
becomes a machine with software that only runs on Windows even though it 
becomes obsolete or unsupported in a couple of years. I'm sure this is 
not an isolated case.

Somebody mentioned about his interest in starting LinuxCNC related 
business last summer if I remember correctly. I did not see any 
enthusiastic support for his idea on this list. I hope that this is 
changing with "Mesa Reseller in America​", a good start but it's not a 
complete solution. I wish John Thornton well, to run successful 
business, and possibly expand on his offering with complete LinuxCNC 
solution from electronics, mechanical hardware (motors, drivers, 
sensors), to software.

> things are moving away from ubuntu ,for lots of reasons , some of it is a
> bit deeper , such as python bindings and servicing things such as
> rt-preempt , kernels etc
> they are now becoming vastly different . from what they were a few years
> ago . and will become a even bigger nightmare over the next few years
> which will mean ubuntu will not be able to be supported .

This leads me to believe there are architectural issues with LinuxCNC 
platform. I could not find roadmap on the website to have a better 
understanding where this is going, short and long term support, and 
upgrade path. All that is important to manufacturers of CNC machines and 
retrofit kits.

A case for different CNC sizes and related COTS hardware could be made 
to match 3 or 4 most common LinuxCNC configurations.

In addition, I believe that linuxCNC needs to be split into two parts 
and "sold as such" by default:
- headless LinuxCNC with hard RT kernel to run on different SBCs to 
handle all CNC IO
- GUI frontend, local or remote, connected to Linux workstation or 
modern tablet over USB, ethernet, or WiFi. Countless digital tablets can 
be had for under $100 that could serve as CNC UI.

A number of open source SBCs are out there ready for CNC use. Open 
source means they can be reordered through independent manufacturers 
years later if need be. Some are better for this than the other, but 
most are fast to handle most CNC tasks without GUI.

There is much more that comes to mind but this is long already.

> On 2 February 2016 at 12:42, John Thornton  wrote:
>
>> Is it possible to build the Prempt-RT kernel on Linux Mint 13 based on
>> Ubuntu Precise or Linux Mint 17 based on Ubuntu Trusty? This is to be
>> able to use LinuxCNC uspace with a 7i92.
>>
>> Thanks
>> JT

Open for discussion.

-- 
Rafael

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Re: [Emc-users] 7i43 encoder count failures

[Peter C. Wallace]

On Tue, 2 Feb 2016, Marius Alksnys wrote:

> Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2016 21:08:26 +0200
> From: Marius Alksnys 
> Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
> 
> To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] 7i43 encoder count failures
> 
> Is't there some checksum used?
>
Not on EPP transfers. Its a possibility but would need to be added to 
firmware and the driver. Its also complex due to the nature of the EPP bus.

It should be possible to find and fix the signal integrity issue

Peter Wallace
Mesa Electronics

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Re: [Emc-users] 7i43 encoder count failures

[Peter C. Wallace]

On Tue, 2 Feb 2016, Marius Alksnys wrote:


Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2016 21:07:27 +0200
From: Marius Alksnys 
Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"

To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] 7i43 encoder count failures

How would you explain that when parallel port transfers data 8 bytes at 

a time and I get errors only in one bit through 3 bytes at least?

The raw encoder count is only 16 bits so the if error is always a MSB due to 
cable characteristics, the next smaller encoder difference is only 128 counts 
so would likely not be noticed.


02/02/2016 08:49 PM, Peter C. Wallace ra:


Sounds like errors in the EPP connection. I would try shortening the
EPP cable to the minimum length (If you are using a flat cable) or
if you need a longer cable, use a IEEE-1284 compatible cable
and a very short flat cable adapter to the 7I43s header. Might also be a
marginal EPP port on the Motherboard.


Peter Wallace
Mesa Electronics



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Peter Wallace
Mesa Electronics

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Re: [Emc-users] 7i43 encoder count failures

[Marius Alksnys]

Is't there some checksum used?


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Re: [Emc-users] 7i43 encoder count failures

[Marius Alksnys]

How would you explain that when parallel port transfers data 8 bytes at 
a time and I get errors only in one bit through 3 bytes at least?

02/02/2016 08:49 PM, Peter C. Wallace rašė:

> Sounds like errors in the EPP connection. I would try shortening the
> EPP cable to the minimum length (If you are using a flat cable) or
> if you need a longer cable, use a IEEE-1284 compatible cable
> and a very short flat cable adapter to the 7I43s header. Might also be a
> marginal EPP port on the Motherboard.
>
>
> Peter Wallace
> Mesa Electronics


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[Emc-users] MPG Handwheel for use with 7i73

[Rick Lair]

This is mainly directed at PCW, but after looking at this,

  
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/CNC-Pulse-Generator-4-Axis-MPG-Pendant-Handwheel-Emergency-Stop-for-Siemens-FAGOR-GSK/2009058806.html?spm=2114.01010208.3.1.ZvKjv2&ws_ab_test=searchweb201556_6,searchweb201644_2_505_506_503_504_502_10014_10001_10002_10016_10005_10006_10003_10004,searchweb201560_2,searchweb1451318400_-1,searchweb1451318411_6449&btsid=3161ee1c-584a-403d-94ec-f8a52a7c24f0


Will this be an acceptable handwheel to use with a 7i73?

It says
 - Required 5V+, 150mA, power for MPG
 - Phase output is A ,/A and B,/B;
 - TTL output, drive capability +-20mA;

Not sure about the "TTL" part 


-- 

Thanks


Rick Lair
Superior Roll & Turning LLC
399 East Center Street
Petersburg MI, 49270
PH: 734-279-1831
FAX: 734-279-1166
www.superiorroll.com

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Re: [Emc-users] 7i43 encoder count failures

[Peter C. Wallace]

On Tue, 2 Feb 2016, Marius Alksnys wrote:

> Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2016 20:40:21 +0200
> From: Marius Alksnys 
> Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
> 
> To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> Subject: [Emc-users] 7i43 encoder count failures
> 
> Today I catched the fault which was causing headache for quite a long
> time already.
>
> There is a machine with one 7i43 P (200k) and one 7i39 and one BLDC
> motor with encoder. I got reports about unexpected moves of the machine
> while standing still.
>
> Today I saw:
> count 712171
> rawcounts 780979
>
> changing to:
> 679403
> 748211 accordingly
>
> which is exactly 32768 or 0x8000 while motor is off and dead still.
>
> Together with that I saw huge number of errors (dmesg output):
> hm2/hm2_7i43.0: Encoder 0: quadrature count errorhm2/hm2_7i43.0: Encoder
> 0: quadrature count errorhm2/hm2_7i43.0: Encoder 0: quadrature count
> errorhm2/hm2_7i43.0: Encoder 0: quadrature count errorhm2/hm2_7i43.0:
> Encoder 0: quadrature count errorhm2/hm2_7i43.0: Encoder 0: quadrature
> count errorhm2/hm2_7i43.0: Encoder 0: quadrature count
> errorhm2/hm2_7i43.0: Encoder 0: quadrature count errorhm2/hm2_7i43.0:
> Encoder 0: quadrature count error...
>
> I will code some more safety features to prevent dangerous
> consequencies. I will try different ports - I can swap 50pin headers and
> swap 7i39 channels. There are 4 of them in total.
>
> And this is replaced 7i43 board after first one I diagnosed as working
> only when warmed and put on the shelf. It had issues with EPP
> communications as far as I remember. The motherboard is the same.
>
> What might be there, anyway?
>

Sounds like errors in the EPP connection. I would try shortening the
EPP cable to the minimum length (If you are using a flat cable) or
if you need a longer cable, use a IEEE-1284 compatible cable
and a very short flat cable adapter to the 7I43s header. Might also be a 
marginal EPP port on the Motherboard.


Peter Wallace
Mesa Electronics

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[Emc-users] 7i43 encoder count failures

[Marius Alksnys]

Today I catched the fault which was causing headache for quite a long 
time already.

There is a machine with one 7i43 P (200k) and one 7i39 and one BLDC 
motor with encoder. I got reports about unexpected moves of the machine 
while standing still.

Today I saw:
count 712171
rawcounts 780979

changing to:
679403
748211 accordingly

which is exactly 32768 or 0x8000 while motor is off and dead still.

Together with that I saw huge number of errors (dmesg output):
hm2/hm2_7i43.0: Encoder 0: quadrature count errorhm2/hm2_7i43.0: Encoder 
0: quadrature count errorhm2/hm2_7i43.0: Encoder 0: quadrature count 
errorhm2/hm2_7i43.0: Encoder 0: quadrature count errorhm2/hm2_7i43.0: 
Encoder 0: quadrature count errorhm2/hm2_7i43.0: Encoder 0: quadrature 
count errorhm2/hm2_7i43.0: Encoder 0: quadrature count 
errorhm2/hm2_7i43.0: Encoder 0: quadrature count errorhm2/hm2_7i43.0: 
Encoder 0: quadrature count error...

I will code some more safety features to prevent dangerous 
consequencies. I will try different ports - I can swap 50pin headers and 
swap 7i39 channels. There are 4 of them in total.

And this is replaced 7i43 board after first one I diagnosed as working 
only when warmed and put on the shelf. It had issues with EPP 
communications as far as I remember. The motherboard is the same.

What might be there, anyway?


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Re: [Emc-users] Prempt RT on Linux Mint

[Marius Alksnys]

I can say a word about my journey through Linux distributions and DEs.
The main reason why I came to Linux was LinuxCNC. I started from Ubuntu 
10 x86 as such image was offered by LinuxCNC. And I made myself 
comfortable with it including for casual tasks.

Later on I moved to Debian Wheezy x86 with xfce together with new image 
from LinuxCNC. It was not easy, I felt not so comfortable, but adapted 
myself and xfce to my needs.

Now I am using Debian Jessie amd64 with KDE Plasma. And I am very happy 
with it. It runs LinuxCNC with SMP PREEMPT RT kernel on a laptop!

And a lot more happier when I found how to:
set Desktop to be "as usual" Activities / Create activity / templates / 
Desktop icons
set Meta (aka MS Start) key for kickoff menu by using ksuperkey
set various custom shortcut keys
use some great apps like Krusader, Kate (one session per config), ...

02/02/2016 03:18 PM, John Thornton rašė:
> Well Linux Mint with Mate is a much better behaved desktop. Having said
> that and I think I tried Debian with Mate with poor results. I'll have
> to dig through my pile of disks to see... maybe not, the only one I
> tried is the net install which only offers gnome, kde, lxde and xfce.
>
> JT


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Re: [Emc-users] Mesa Reseller in America

[John Thornton]

Because of the delivery problems?

JT

On 2/2/2016 7:18 AM, Sarah Armstrong wrote:
> unfortunately iv'e lost all confidence
> in mesa
>
> On 2 February 2016 at 13:04, Mark  wrote:
>
>> On 02/01/2016 05:14 PM, John Thornton wrote:
>>> I just want to announce that I'm going to be a Mesa Electronics reseller
>>> in America. I just got conformation on my first stocking order should be
>>> here Friday February 5th. As soon as I get everything checked in the
>>> store will be up and running. www.mesaus.com
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>> JT
>> Outstanding John!  Great producst, and a great guy to be reselling!
>>
>> Mark
>>
>>
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>
>


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Re: [Emc-users] Prempt RT on Linux Mint

[John Thornton]

Well Linux Mint with Mate is a much better behaved desktop. Having said 
that and I think I tried Debian with Mate with poor results. I'll have 
to dig through my pile of disks to see... maybe not, the only one I 
tried is the net install which only offers gnome, kde, lxde and xfce.

JT

On 2/2/2016 6:56 AM, Sarah Armstrong wrote:
> i dont see why not , but the patch will be different probably , i'd need to
> try it
> why use ubuntu ? , thats another can of worms to get in the way .
>
> debian now has the 2 desktops that minit as
>
>
> things are moving away from ubuntu ,for lots of reasons , some of it is a
> bit deeper , such as python bindings and servicing things such as
> rt-preempt , kernels etc
> they are now becoming vastly different . from what they were a few years
> ago . and will become a even bigger nightmare over the next few years
> which will mean ubuntu will not be able to be supported .
>
>
>
> On 2 February 2016 at 12:42, John Thornton  wrote:
>
>> Is it possible to build the Prempt-RT kernel on Linux Mint 13 based on
>> Ubuntu Precise or Linux Mint 17 based on Ubuntu Trusty? This is to be
>> able to use LinuxCNC uspace with a 7i92.
>>
>> Thanks
>> JT
>>
>>
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>>
>
>


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Re: [Emc-users] Mesa Reseller in America

[Sarah Armstrong]

unfortunately iv'e lost all confidence
in mesa

On 2 February 2016 at 13:04, Mark  wrote:

> On 02/01/2016 05:14 PM, John Thornton wrote:
> > I just want to announce that I'm going to be a Mesa Electronics reseller
> > in America. I just got conformation on my first stocking order should be
> > here Friday February 5th. As soon as I get everything checked in the
> > store will be up and running. www.mesaus.com
> >
> > Thanks
> > JT
>
> Outstanding John!  Great producst, and a great guy to be reselling!
>
> Mark
>
>
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>



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Re: [Emc-users] Mesa Reseller in America

[John Thornton]

Thanks
JT

On 2/2/2016 7:04 AM, Mark wrote:
> On 02/01/2016 05:14 PM, John Thornton wrote:
>> I just want to announce that I'm going to be a Mesa Electronics reseller
>> in America. I just got conformation on my first stocking order should be
>> here Friday February 5th. As soon as I get everything checked in the
>> store will be up and running. www.mesaus.com
>>
>> Thanks
>> JT
> Outstanding John!  Great producst, and a great guy to be reselling!
>
> Mark
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Mesa Reseller in America

[Mark]

On 02/01/2016 05:14 PM, John Thornton wrote:
> I just want to announce that I'm going to be a Mesa Electronics reseller
> in America. I just got conformation on my first stocking order should be
> here Friday February 5th. As soon as I get everything checked in the
> store will be up and running. www.mesaus.com
>
> Thanks
> JT

Outstanding John!  Great producst, and a great guy to be reselling!

Mark

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Re: [Emc-users] Prempt RT on Linux Mint

[Sarah Armstrong]

i dont see why not , but the patch will be different probably , i'd need to
try it
why use ubuntu ? , thats another can of worms to get in the way .

debian now has the 2 desktops that minit as


things are moving away from ubuntu ,for lots of reasons , some of it is a
bit deeper , such as python bindings and servicing things such as
rt-preempt , kernels etc
they are now becoming vastly different . from what they were a few years
ago . and will become a even bigger nightmare over the next few years
which will mean ubuntu will not be able to be supported .



On 2 February 2016 at 12:42, John Thornton  wrote:

> Is it possible to build the Prempt-RT kernel on Linux Mint 13 based on
> Ubuntu Precise or Linux Mint 17 based on Ubuntu Trusty? This is to be
> able to use LinuxCNC uspace with a 7i92.
>
> Thanks
> JT
>
>
> --
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> ___
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> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>



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[Emc-users] Prempt RT on Linux Mint

[John Thornton]

Is it possible to build the Prempt-RT kernel on Linux Mint 13 based on 
Ubuntu Precise or Linux Mint 17 based on Ubuntu Trusty? This is to be 
able to use LinuxCNC uspace with a 7i92.

Thanks
JT

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Re: [Emc-users] Problem with linuxcnc not starting

[John Thornton]

It's really quite simple your new game controller has a different name...

JT

On 2/1/2016 5:39 PM, chris wrote:
> No input device matching 'Jess' was found (1 devices checked)


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Re: [Emc-users] Camview-emc workalike? Update, solved.

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 01 February 2016 14:40:56 Gene Heskett wrote:

To bring this up to date, the linkage between the xml created pyvcp 
buttons and lcnc has been solved.  In the big docs pdf, I read that to 
access buttons created by pyvcp, one must add 'pyvcp.' to the names, so 
I took the halpin created names down to one word names in the xml file, 
then in postgui.hal, the net statements were fixed to 
use 'pyvcp.button1' style syntax, and it all seems to just work.

Now, to build a nice solid camera mount to hang off the bottom of the 
spindle brake collar, and I believe I'll have something that works.

One item of note, I remember camview taking 5 seconds to fully update the 
image when the table was moved, so finding and fixing on the target was 
excruciatingly slow. Even with the signal processing opencv does to 
insert its target circle and crosshairs and measurement scales, opencv 
is managing to get 8 to 15 FPS depending on the light level, so I can 
search at 10 ipm, and fine tune at .7 without 95% of the lags that 
camview had.  However, it is dragging on the base-thread timing when its 
running, I can hear the diff in speeds while its homing the machine.  
Since once it has done its job, it can be shut down, I do not consider 
that to be a showstopper unless software stepping is in use. 5i25 card 
in use here.

That may be related to my seeing both cpus usage graphs in gkrellm, so I 
may not have isolcpus setup correctly on this dell dimension 745 
computer.  

Huh? On checking grub.cfg, it is not anywhere in boot/grub/grub.cfg!

I have not taken it out, this is as installed from the hybrid.iso, with 
the updated 3.4.9-rtai kernel.

I put it in: isocpus=1 and rebooted, htop now can't see the 2nd core, so 
thats another potential problem solved.

So of the rest of you may want to check your installs too! I am certainly 
going to check my other 2 machines...  One of which, because I've 
miss-laid my round tuit IS software stepping yet despit having a 5i25 
ready to be installed.  My bad.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Mesa Reseller in America

[andy pugh]

On 2 February 2016 at 06:25, Peter Blodow  wrote:
> Congratulations, John! Wish someone would have the guts to do that here
> in old Germany, too!

Only one border away:
http://www.duzi.cz/shop_cnc/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=1


-- 
atp
If you can't fix it, you don't own it.
http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto

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Re: [Emc-users] Well, thats the end of aliexpress.com for me (OT warning)

[TJoseph Powderly]

nicklas
hahaha i understand very well
but dont be sour
all women love you.r money
as they say here in thailand ;-)
tomp

On 02/02/2016 01:16 AM, Nicklas Karlsson wrote:
> On Mon, 1 Feb 2016 08:27:42 -0800
> Steve Traugott  wrote:
>
>> Interesting.  My wife and I run an electronics manufacturing business. ...
> Interesting wife and business seems exciting. One of my teachers once asked 
> why women prefer gold it does not corrode but I answered it's because gold is 
> expensive and he thought it was very funny. I guess the only thing worse 
> would be wife in combination with Chinese.
>


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