Re: [Emc-users] Wood expertise needed, on bending

[Gregg Eshelman]

Can you saw the boards, like cutting thick veneer off the two faces? Just read 
a bit where that was done with a tall clock door panel to preserve the original 
veneered front and back finish. The thin slabs were then pressed flat and glued 
to a new core that had been well dried and planed flat.
There's a job for 3D probing and milling. Probe to get the shape of the two 
faces. Bandsaw as best as possible to split the warped boards then with the 
finished sides down, 3D mill the sawn sides to make an even thickness yet still 
warped board.
Make cores of high grade plywood and fill the gaps around the edges with wood 
that matches the faces.
Which is how I might have done a lid to keep it from warping or splitting or 
cupping. Not the old way of doing fine woodcraft, but neither is CNC machining. 
;)



 
  From: "albertson.ch...@gmail.com" 
 To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)  
 Sent: Friday, March 4, 2016 8:04 PM
 Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Wood expertise needed, on bending
   
What are you looking to do is this veneer or architectural size?  In either 
case you end up using many thin sections with slow setting glue bent around a 
form and clamped. Sometimes steam is used

> On Mar 4, 2016, at 9:38 AM, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> 
> Cheers, Gene Heskett
   
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Re: [Emc-users] Wood expertise needed, on bending/flattening mahogany

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 04 March 2016 23:03:54 Erik Christiansen wrote:

> On 04.03.16 15:14, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Friday 04 March 2016 14:12:22 John Kasunich wrote:
> > > If your wood is below 5%, it might be too late.
>
> That's damn dry. Air-dried is generally 12 - 14%, and "A moisture
> content of 6 to 8% is usually recommended for furniture manufacture in
> most northern and central regions of the United States." according to
> Bruce Hoadley, in Fine Woodworking's "On Wood and How to Dry It"
>
> > I am fairly sure its too late to fix it.  The unfunny part is that
> > when carried in the door and laid on the strip of rug I'd laid out,
> > it was saran wrapped, dead straight and flat.  But the instant I cut
> > the saran wrap off the top bundle, it turned into a bristle cone
> > pine on a rock overlooking the pacific, twisting every which way it
> > had room to twist. these lids, which are 2 ea 44" long pieces of
> > 1x12 biscuited together for the width needed, have a wind in all 3
> > once they'd had a chance to acclimate to my 73F,20% humidity garage
> > for a week.  Worst case is 4"!
>
> That sounds to me like you've copped a load of reaction wood, i.e.
> wood cut from a leaning tree or, worse, a branch. Wood grown under
> tension or compression will warp once cut up, to release the tension.
> But even good wood, if green, needs to be air-dried flat with weights
> or clamping, just to tell it what's required.
>
Yes, I like working with white ash, but I keep the working stock, usually 
5 or 6 native cut 2x8's from a dairy farm in NYS, clamped & stickered to 
a steel frame for at least 5 years standing in the corner of my just 
barely heated (keep it above the dew point) shop building in the upper 
corner of what passes for a back yard.  After 5 or 6 years I can unclamp 
it, joint it straight, and have a ball, its straight forever. Its quite 
strong wood and works up stunningly with a clear gloss wipeon finish.

> There's not much about it in the book, but in my experience, young
> growth timber, especially if rapidly grown with plenty of water, will
> also warp and split to a degree which is not seen in old growth wood.
>
> I see that the ratio of tangential to radial shrinkage for mahogany is
> 1.4, which is pretty average, but enough to lead to cupping in
> backsawn boards.

It did that too.

> Backsawn will give better figure, whereas quartersawn 
> is more stable. (It might have saved you, if Murphy had been looking
> the other way.)

That SOB watches me like a hawk. I swear he even drinks my beer at times.

> A good carpenter or cabinetmaker can rescue quite a few medium
> disasters which would trounce anyone else, but that's hard with wood
> from hell. The one opportunity to catch this one was the moment the
> boards sat up and snarled. You tried that, and they wouldn't give.
> Maybe steaming would have worked before they dried.

But I didn't have it under my control then, they were already baked down 
to 5.2% when they walked in the door.  Heat in the garage is electric, 
not much of it as I insulated the heck out of it. 6" walls are full of 
cocoon, and a foot or more of it on the ceiling, plus as much blue styro 
2" thick as I can glue to the inside of an already insulated door and 
still let it fold up to raise into the usual overhead track.  Only 2 or 
3 days have I turned on a 2nd 1500 watter to keep it in the low 70's.  
But its dry, and this stuff is some below 5% now.  My house should heat 
as easy. :) OTOH, it was a Hercules Powder house ( not more than 1 nail 
per board thing ) in 1974. :(

> It would be 
> interesting to know, but that's overboard on a transatlantic steamer,
> now, and you can't even see the lights in the distance.
>
Yup.

> It's depressing to try to work with a sow's ear. It's worth making
> completion of the job a joy, with new stable well-dried wood, I think.
> (I don't know if this saying is Aussie or international: "You can't
> make strawberry jam out of pigshit.)

Must be Aussie, I've not heard that one before. :)

Here its generally "you can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear".

> If the crap wood can be taken back, then good.

That will be tried Monday if I feel like loading it.

> If not, whatever. 
> Enjoy the good wood. (And a beer when it's done. It'll be beer weather
> by then, by definition. :-)

Huh?  I'll plead to being an alky. Its beer-thirty, once, by my clock 
whenever I am done for the day, but one, very occasionally 2, both just 
near beers like a Miller64 (2.8%) because I am diabetic and 
alcohol=sugar.  Darn it. :(

> Erik
>
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: [Emc-users] Need help with X200 VFD modbus

[dannym]

I tried the sudo chown.  Not sure what you meant by "the one with .git in it", 
I did it from the directory above the src.

I got some errors and redid ./configure --with-realtime=uspace

"make" did a lot of stuff, but ended with:
Linking python module gcode.so
g++ -L/home/atxhacker/linuxcnc-2.7.4/lib 
-Wl,-rpath,/home/atxhacker/linuxcnc-2.7.4/lib -shared -o ../lib/python/gcode.so 
objects/emc/rs274ngc/gcodemodule.o ../lib/librs274.so.0 -lstdc++
Linking ../rtlib/abs.so
ld: no input files
make: *** [../rtlib/abs.so] Error 1

then I did "sudo make setuid"
hal/user_comps/vfdb_vfd/Submakefile:11: warning: overriding commands for target 
`../bin/vfdb_vfd'
hal/user_comps/vfdb_vfd/Submakefile:11: warning: ignoring old commands for 
target `../bin/vfdb_vfd'
chown root ../bin/rtapi_app
chmod 4750 ../bin/rtapi_app


source ../scripts/rip-environment
This script only needs to be run once per shell session.

type "linuxcnc" , loads, lets me select a HAL file, then:
LINUXCNC - 2.7.4
Machine configuration directory is '/home/atxhacker/linuxcnc/configs'
Machine configuration file is '7i92_spid.ini'
Starting LinuxCNC...
inifile: warning: File contains DOS-style line endings.
emc/iotask/ioControl.cc 768: can't load tool table.
Found file(REL): ./7i92_spid.hal
hal_lib: dlopen: /home/atxhacker/linuxcnc-2.7.4/rtlib/hal_lib.so: cannot open 
shared object file: No such file or directory
Note: Using POSIX realtime
gantrykins: dlopen: /home/atxhacker/linuxcnc-2.7.4/rtlib/gantrykins.so: cannot 
open shared object file: No such file or directory
./7i92_spid.hal:31: waitpid failed /home/atxhacker/linuxcnc-2.7.4/bin/rtapi_app 
gantrykins
./7i92_spid.hal:31: /home/atxhacker/linuxcnc-2.7.4/bin/rtapi_app exited without 
becoming ready
./7i92_spid.hal:31: insmod for gantrykins failed, returned -1
Shutting down and cleaning up LinuxCNC...
hal_lib: dlopen: /home/atxhacker/linuxcnc-2.7.4/rtlib/hal_lib.so: cannot open 
shared object file: No such file or directory
Note: Using POSIX realtime
LinuxCNC terminated with an error.  You can find more information in the log:
/home/atxhacker/linuxcnc_debug.txt
and
/home/atxhacker/linuxcnc_print.txt
as well as in the output of the shell command 'dmesg' and in the terminal


Danny

 Sebastian Kuzminsky  wrote: 
> On 03/03/2016 09:21 PM, dan...@austin.rr.com wrote:
> > No joy.  I have the RT-preempt (have a 7i92 ethernet control card, 
> > does not handle the modbus though).
> > 
> > uname -a Linux localhost 3.2.0-4-rt-686-pae #1 SMP PREEMPT RT Debian 
> > 3.2.73-2+deb7u2 i686 GNU/Linux
> 
> Great, this helps illuminate your situation.
> 
> 
> > Sudo was required for some of these.  Made errors without.
> > 
> > cd src ./configure --with-realtime=uspace ./configure: line 2025: 
> > config.log: Permission denied ./configure: line 2035: config.log: 
> > Permission denied
> 
> config.log is produced by the configure script.  I bet you ran configure
> as root earlier and it created config.log owned by root, and now when
> you try to run configure as you (non-root) it won't let you overwrite
> root's config.log.
> 
> Your options are to either chown all the incorrectly root-owned files to
> be owned by you (this would be my preference), or live as root in this
> directory from now on.  The chown could be done like this (in the root
> directory of the git checkout, the one with .git/ in it):
> 
>   sudo chown -R $(id -u).$(id -g) .
> 
> 
> > ok well then... sudo ./configure --with-realtime=uspace
> > 
> > sudo make
> > sudo make setuid
> > source ../scripts/rip-environment
> > which x200_vfd
> > /home/atxhacker/linuxcnc-2.7.4/bin/x200_vfd
> 
> Yay, this is good!
> 
> 
> > Applications Menu-> Linuxcnc -> select HAL file:
> > ./7i92_spid.hal:313: execv(x200_vfd): No such file or directory
> 
> Ok, this won't work because the GUI menu runs in a different context
> that hasn't seen your "source ../scripts/rip-environment", so it doesn't
> know to look in /home/atxhacker/linuxcnc-2.7.4/bin.
> 
> You then tried this, which is the right way to go:
> 
> 
> > cd ~/linuxcnc-2.7.4/bin
> > linuxcnc -> select HAL file:
> > ./7i92_spid.hal:31: execv(/home/atxhacker/linuxcnc-2.7.4/bin/rtapi_app): 
> > Permission denied
> > ./7i92_spid.hal:31: waitpid failed 
> > /home/atxhacker/linuxcnc-2.7.4/bin/rtapi_app gantrykins
> 
> You're super close.  I bet this is probably fallout from running the
> build as root up above.  If you do the chown i suggested, then this
> should start working.
> 
> If it doesn't, run "ls -la
> /home/atxhacker/linuxcnc-2.7.4/bin/" and paste the output into an email
> and we'll figure it out.
> 
> 
> > I did try "sudo linuxcnc", but then my HAL file isn't there, only 
> > "Sample Configurations". The whole "My Configurations" tab is gone?
> 
> Right, because linuxcnc looks for My Configurations in your home
> directory, and root has a different home directory than you do.  Run as
> you, not as root.  Linuxcnc has setuid helpers that become root
> automatically in the few places where 

Re: [Emc-users] Wood expertise needed, on bending/flattening mahogany

[Erik Christiansen]

On 04.03.16 15:14, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Friday 04 March 2016 14:12:22 John Kasunich wrote:
> > If your wood is below 5%, it might be too late.

That's damn dry. Air-dried is generally 12 - 14%, and "A moisture
content of 6 to 8% is usually recommended for furniture manufacture in
most northern and central regions of the United States." according to
Bruce Hoadley, in Fine Woodworking's "On Wood and How to Dry It"

> I am fairly sure its too late to fix it.  The unfunny part is that when 
> carried in the door and laid on the strip of rug I'd laid out, it was 
> saran wrapped, dead straight and flat.  But the instant I cut the saran 
> wrap off the top bundle, it turned into a bristle cone pine on a rock 
> overlooking the pacific, twisting every which way it had room to twist. 
> these lids, which are 2 ea 44" long pieces of 1x12 biscuited together 
> for the width needed, have a wind in all 3 once they'd had a chance to 
> acclimate to my 73F,20% humidity garage for a week.  Worst case is 4"!

That sounds to me like you've copped a load of reaction wood, i.e. wood
cut from a leaning tree or, worse, a branch. Wood grown under tension or
compression will warp once cut up, to release the tension. But even good
wood, if green, needs to be air-dried flat with weights or clamping,
just to tell it what's required.

There's not much about it in the book, but in my experience, young
growth timber, especially if rapidly grown with plenty of water, will
also warp and split to a degree which is not seen in old growth wood. 

I see that the ratio of tangential to radial shrinkage for mahogany is
1.4, which is pretty average, but enough to lead to cupping in backsawn
boards. Backsawn will give better figure, whereas quartersawn is more
stable. (It might have saved you, if Murphy had been looking the other
way.)

A good carpenter or cabinetmaker can rescue quite a few medium disasters
which would trounce anyone else, but that's hard with wood from hell.
The one opportunity to catch this one was the moment the boards sat up
and snarled. You tried that, and they wouldn't give. Maybe steaming
would have worked before they dried. It would be interesting to know,
but that's overboard on a transatlantic steamer, now, and you can't even
see the lights in the distance.

It's depressing to try to work with a sow's ear. It's worth making
completion of the job a joy, with new stable well-dried wood, I think.
(I don't know if this saying is Aussie or international: "You can't
make strawberry jam out of pigshit.)

If the crap wood can be taken back, then good. If not, whatever.
Enjoy the good wood. (And a beer when it's done. It'll be beer weather
by then, by definition. :-)

Erik

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Re: [Emc-users] Wood expertise needed, on bending

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 04 March 2016 22:04:39 albertson.ch...@gmail.com wrote:

> What are you looking to do is this veneer or architectural size?  In
> either case you end up using many thin sections with slow setting glue
> bent around a form and clamped. Sometimes steam is used
>
Std construction for this item is out of solid 1" (dimensioned) mahogany, 
with however many pieces is needed to get the nominally 23" width, 44" 
long plus 1.125" thick, 3" wide, 23.5" long Mahogany breadboard ends.  
Both are end slotted for 1/4" splines, white ash in this case, whose 
grain runs with the main boards, splines about 2" wide with an inch 
buried in the main boards, and an inch buried in the edges of the 
breadboard ends, splines glued only at the center, with long screws in 
gaps in the spline to help pull it together, but just loose enough that 
the central boards can move with the seasons each side of center.

IOW, we are NOT bending it, we are trying to take the warp/bow/wind back 
out of it that occured literally before my eyes as I was cutting and 
biscuiting the main portion of the 3 lids. Out of 3 lids I made in 3 
days time due to lack of enough clamps while the glue was setting, one 
now has a 4.5" wind, one has about a 2" wind, and one is about an inch 
in the other direction, but its also bowed half an inch.  And I did try 
to alternate the grain lay before I ever picked up the biscuit jointer.

Does this help describe the problem?

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Wood expertise needed, on bending

[albertson . chris]

What are you looking to do is this veneer or architectural size?  In either 
case you end up using many thin sections with slow setting glue bent around a 
form and clamped. Sometimes steam is used

> On Mar 4, 2016, at 9:38 AM, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> 
> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> -- 
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
> soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> Genes Web page 
> 
> --
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

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Re: [Emc-users] Wood expertise needed, on bending/flattening mahogany

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 04 March 2016 15:05:59 Eric Keller wrote:

> a lot of Mahogany is air dried.  I have some walnut that I resawed
a lot of good Mahogany, I fixed it for you :)
> before it dried, and it warped badly.  I managed to straighten it out
> with weight and fabric softener.  Luthiers often use fabric softener
> to help bending wood.  I'm not sure if your lids are too thin or not.
>
I am quite convinced this crap was just pulled out of the river in 
Honduras last fall and kiln dried just to get it to market.  Its not as 
dense as the good stuff I got from Home Depot a couple years ago, 
slightly lighter colored too. So if it spend 100 years sunk in the 
river, I'd expect some degradation & the clues sure seem to fit.

Mahogany is now an embargo'ed wood and must be accompanied when shipped 
into the states with paperwork for customs that traces it from harvest 
to the border, but you can bet the farm the customer never sees that 
paper. It was not Mahogany, but Rosewood that they raided the Gibson 
shops and confiscated, but the law is the same. Most of the 'exotic 
hardwoods' are on that list now. That tends to make a little stick of 
ebony cost $100 USD or more. I've machined up nearly $220 worth of it 
just to make the ebony trim pieces for these chests. But I still have 
enough left to do some more for new lids.  And of course the code to 
carve them.

> On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 1:10 PM, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> > Greetings; Mouse miss-fire before;
> >
> > The lids for these chests were the first things I tried to make out
> > of this crappy, poorly seasoned & dried mahogany.
> >
> > So by now they've had about 90 days to warp, and warp and wind they
> > have done.
> >
> > Now I know its a popular thing to warm up oak in a steam setup,
> > getting the lignite in the oak above 180F softens it and allows it
> > to be bent, and it will retain that bend when cooled again.
> >
> > I'd druther not use steam as this stuff reads 5% and below for
> > moisture, and if its temp alone that allows this, it stands to
> > reason that lignite is lignite and I'd ought to be able to heat this
> > mahogany, and rather than bending it, take the bend/wind back out of
> > it.
> >
> > So obviously I have to make a chamber big enough to take these lids,
> > all 3 of them, which with the bearboards ends and all are around 1
> > and 1/16" thick, around 23" wide, and about 47" long. Thats a 2x6
> > frame for height, and half a sheet of plywood for top and bottom. 
> > But without some insulation, hard to heat.  So I am contemplating
> > giveing it a wrap with some 2" blue styro, thats r11 by itself. 
> > That should, because it reduces the cooliing at the far end away
> > from the heat source, even the internal temps.  As for the heat
> > source, I'm considering demolishing an old hair dryer, mainly to
> > remove the plastic as much as possible, at least cutting off the
> > handle, and doing a light dimmer type of control externally to set
> > the heat. I don't care if it takes days to warm it up as theres
> > probably 40 lbs of wood to heat without scorching that which is
> > nearest the heater, only that it does get hot enough eventually. The
> > slower the better and more evenly would seem to be best when dealing
> > with 1/4 a barn door sized stuff.
> >
> > So my lack of info basically consists of how hot do I have to heat
> > this mahogany to the point where it will sag of its own weight and
> > flatten, and, how hot can I get the outside of the box before that
> > blue styro starts getting soggy?  I can put a small probe thru the
> > box resting on the high point, or even stack 20 some pounds on it to
> > add some counterforce to the wind its taken, and by that see it
> > start to flatten. But that may need 200F or a bit more inside the
> > box. IDK about mahogany.
> >
> > Maybe this is something Les Watts can advise on?  Maybe, because the
> > wind is direction in-consistent, I might have to heat each one by
> > itself.
> >
> > Advice needed OIW.
> >
> > Many Thanks to the wood people I know there are a few of here.
> >
> > Cheers, Gene Heskett
> > --
> > "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
> >  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> > -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> > Genes Web page 
> >
> > 
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>
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web 

Re: [Emc-users] Wood expertise needed, on bending/flattening mahogany

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 04 March 2016 14:12:22 John Kasunich wrote:

> Dry heat looks un-promising.  From the document that Brian referenced:
>
> Only air-dried wood of an appropriate species
> should be used.
> Kiln-dried wood must not be used; the lignin in the
> wood has been permanently set during the hot, dry
> kilning process. No amount of steaming or soaking
> will weaken the lignin bond sufficiently for successful
> bending. The same applies to air-dried wood that has
> been allowed to dry and stabilize below 10% moisture
> content; the lignin will only partially plasticize with
> steam, not enough for successful bending of anything
> beyond a shallow curve
>
> If your wood is below 5%, it might be too late.

I am fairly sure its too late to fix it.  The unfunny part is that when 
carried in the door and laid on the strip of rug I'd laid out, it was 
saran wrapped, dead straight and flat.  But the instant I cut the saran 
wrap off the top bundle, it turned into a bristle cone pine on a rock 
overlooking the pacific, twisting every which way it had room to twist. 
these lids, which are 2 ea 44" long pieces of 1x12 biscuited together 
for the width needed, have a wind in all 3 once they'd had a chance to 
acclimate to my 73F,20% humidity garage for a week.  Worst case is 4"!

I tried to clamp it to my saw table, bending it about an inch the other 
way, left it that way for a week, damaged the sliding tables bearings 
with the force, succeeded in putting 3 hairline cracks in the wood I had 
to superglue and didn't, at the end of that week, pull enough "wind" 
back out of it to measure.

The rest of these have sufficient screws to pull them together anyway & 
in 20 years, may relax, but I'll be long gone regardless. I may bag 
these up & take them back to the millworks that supplied the mahogany, 
maybe they can find enough better stuff to make these lids again.  But 
that will not be today, Monday maybe, give this NEURONTIN they started 
me on Wed evening time to try and control the back pain.

Std disclaimer: If I had known I was gonna live this long, I would have 
taken better care of me because this back problem dates back to the 
summer of 1960 when I worked in an iron foundry (wife & 2 kids to 
support, you do what you have to do) and wound up flat on my back for 
about 2 weeks from trying to handle a 90 pound bucket of iron with a 
handle 7 feet long for about the last hour of your days shift everyday, 
pouring the sand molds you had made that day.  The iron of course was at 
about 2300F.  Hind sight, always 20-05.

Thanks for that Brian. I had no clue where to find such a document. Good 
info for sure.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Wood expertise needed, on bending/flattening mahogany

[Eric Keller]

a lot of Mahogany is air dried.  I have some walnut that I resawed
before it dried, and it warped badly.  I managed to straighten it out
with weight and fabric softener.  Luthiers often use fabric softener
to help bending wood.  I'm not sure if your lids are too thin or not.

On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 1:10 PM, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> Greetings; Mouse miss-fire before;
>
> The lids for these chests were the first things I tried to make out of
> this crappy, poorly seasoned & dried mahogany.
>
> So by now they've had about 90 days to warp, and warp and wind they have
> done.
>
> Now I know its a popular thing to warm up oak in a steam setup, getting
> the lignite in the oak above 180F softens it and allows it to be bent,
> and it will retain that bend when cooled again.
>
> I'd druther not use steam as this stuff reads 5% and below for moisture,
> and if its temp alone that allows this, it stands to reason that lignite
> is lignite and I'd ought to be able to heat this mahogany, and rather
> than bending it, take the bend/wind back out of it.
>
> So obviously I have to make a chamber big enough to take these lids, all
> 3 of them, which with the bearboards ends and all are around 1 and 1/16"
> thick, around 23" wide, and about 47" long. Thats a 2x6 frame for
> height, and half a sheet of plywood for top and bottom.  But without
> some insulation, hard to heat.  So I am contemplating giveing it a wrap
> with some 2" blue styro, thats r11 by itself.  That should, because it
> reduces the cooliing at the far end away from the heat source, even the
> internal temps.  As for the heat source, I'm considering demolishing an
> old hair dryer, mainly to remove the plastic as much as possible, at
> least cutting off the handle, and doing a light dimmer type of control
> externally to set the heat. I don't care if it takes days to warm it up
> as theres probably 40 lbs of wood to heat without scorching that which
> is nearest the heater, only that it does get hot enough eventually. The
> slower the better and more evenly would seem to be best when dealing
> with 1/4 a barn door sized stuff.
>
> So my lack of info basically consists of how hot do I have to heat this
> mahogany to the point where it will sag of its own weight and flatten,
> and, how hot can I get the outside of the box before that blue styro
> starts getting soggy?  I can put a small probe thru the box resting on
> the high point, or even stack 20 some pounds on it to add some
> counterforce to the wind its taken, and by that see it start to flatten.
> But that may need 200F or a bit more inside the box. IDK about mahogany.
>
> Maybe this is something Les Watts can advise on?  Maybe, because the wind
> is direction in-consistent, I might have to heat each one by itself.
>
> Advice needed OIW.
>
> Many Thanks to the wood people I know there are a few of here.
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> --
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> Genes Web page 
>
> --
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

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Re: [Emc-users] Wood expertise needed, on bending/flattening mahogany

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 04 March 2016 13:39:16 BRIAN GLACKIN wrote:

> Gene,
>
> Two items,
>
> First - check out http://www.leevalley.com/en/html/05F1501ie.pdf
>
> has a nice writeup on wood bending.  You are likely to find your
> answers there.
>
Printed, read thru a couple times, very informative in terms of 
describing why I'll have a heck of a time doing it.  Thanks a bunch.

However, they specifically do not mention mahogany. Also noted that kiln 
dried wood probably won't work as the heat of the kiln has already set 
the lignite.

High moisture content wood, 30% seems preferred, but this has already 
been dried so low my pin meter doesn't reliably give a reading as it 
only goes down to 5%.

So it appears steam is the way to go as I'll have to put some moisture 
back into the wood, likely if the wood was bare, at least a 24 hour per 
inch of thickness soaking time.  But that bare is complicated by 2 of 
the 3 lids already having a liberal coat of teak oil applied.  And 
there's something else not nearly so glossy on the 3rd one. All will 
have the effect of sealing out the steam.

It sounds like I should see if HD can supply enough of their 1x6's, which 
was pretty good wood, and start over. I did not have any such warpage 
problems with the HD mahogany I made the first one out of. But it takes 
4 of them biscuited together to get the width.  And I'll have to cut up 
2 more Gibson necks to get the breadboard ends unless I can salvage 
these.  Getting the glued in ebony plugs back out means I may as well 
make new ones, both plugs and breadboards.

Damn.  There are times when I wish I hadn't started this project.

> Secondly, in using the foam, a quick and airtight technique is to
> connect your corners of the foam boards with the 3X expansion foam
> they sell at home stores.  Once it cures, its locked in giving you a
> nice strong corner.  Make sure to leave a 1/2" gap between the pieces
> so the foam can expand around each of the adjoining slabs.  I have
> made air stoppings (in underground mines) using styro blocks and
> expanding foam.  It created surprisingly strong barriers and gave an
> airtight seal.
>
Interesting, and thank you, Brian.

> Good luck.
>
> On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 1:10 PM, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> > Greetings; Mouse miss-fire before;
> >
> > The lids for these chests were the first things I tried to make out
> > of this crappy, poorly seasoned & dried mahogany.
> >
> > So by now they've had about 90 days to warp, and warp and wind they
> > have done.
> >
> > Now I know its a popular thing to warm up oak in a steam setup,
> > getting the lignite in the oak above 180F softens it and allows it
> > to be bent, and it will retain that bend when cooled again.
> >
> > I'd druther not use steam as this stuff reads 5% and below for
> > moisture, and if its temp alone that allows this, it stands to
> > reason that lignite is lignite and I'd ought to be able to heat this
> > mahogany, and rather than bending it, take the bend/wind back out of
> > it.
> >
> > So obviously I have to make a chamber big enough to take these lids,
> > all 3 of them, which with the bearboards ends and all are around 1
> > and 1/16" thick, around 23" wide, and about 47" long. Thats a 2x6
> > frame for height, and half a sheet of plywood for top and bottom. 
> > But without some insulation, hard to heat.  So I am contemplating
> > giveing it a wrap with some 2" blue styro, thats r11 by itself. 
> > That should, because it reduces the cooliing at the far end away
> > from the heat source, even the internal temps.  As for the heat
> > source, I'm considering demolishing an old hair dryer, mainly to
> > remove the plastic as much as possible, at least cutting off the
> > handle, and doing a light dimmer type of control externally to set
> > the heat. I don't care if it takes days to warm it up as theres
> > probably 40 lbs of wood to heat without scorching that which is
> > nearest the heater, only that it does get hot enough eventually. The
> > slower the better and more evenly would seem to be best when dealing
> > with 1/4 a barn door sized stuff.
> >
> > So my lack of info basically consists of how hot do I have to heat
> > this mahogany to the point where it will sag of its own weight and
> > flatten, and, how hot can I get the outside of the box before that
> > blue styro starts getting soggy?  I can put a small probe thru the
> > box resting on the high point, or even stack 20 some pounds on it to
> > add some counterforce to the wind its taken, and by that see it
> > start to flatten. But that may need 200F or a bit more inside the
> > box. IDK about mahogany.
> >
> > Maybe this is something Les Watts can advise on?  Maybe, because the
> > wind is direction in-consistent, I might have to heat each one by
> > itself.
> >
> > Advice needed OIW.
> >
> > Many Thanks to the wood people I know there are a few of here.
> >
> > Cheers, Gene Heskett
> > --
> > "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
> >  soap, ballot, 

Re: [Emc-users] Wood expertise needed, on bending/flattening mahogany

[John Kasunich]

Dry heat looks un-promising.  From the document that Brian referenced:

Only air-dried wood of an appropriate species
should be used.
Kiln-dried wood must not be used; the lignin in the
wood has been permanently set during the hot, dry
kilning process. No amount of steaming or soaking
will weaken the lignin bond sufficiently for successful
bending. The same applies to air-dried wood that has
been allowed to dry and stabilize below 10% moisture
content; the lignin will only partially plasticize with
steam, not enough for successful bending of anything
beyond a shallow curve

If your wood is below 5%, it might be too late.




On Fri, Mar 4, 2016, at 01:39 PM, BRIAN GLACKIN wrote:
> Gene,
> 
> Two items,
> 
> First - check out http://www.leevalley.com/en/html/05F1501ie.pdf
> 
> has a nice writeup on wood bending.  You are likely to find your answers
> there.
> 
> Secondly, in using the foam, a quick and airtight technique is to connect
> your corners of the foam boards with the 3X expansion foam they sell at
> home stores.  Once it cures, its locked in giving you a nice strong
> corner.  Make sure to leave a 1/2" gap between the pieces so the foam can
> expand around each of the adjoining slabs.  I have made air stoppings (in
> underground mines) using styro blocks and expanding foam.  It created
> surprisingly strong barriers and gave an airtight seal.
> 
> Good luck.
> 
> On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 1:10 PM, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> 
> > Greetings; Mouse miss-fire before;
> >
> > The lids for these chests were the first things I tried to make out of
> > this crappy, poorly seasoned & dried mahogany.
> >
> > So by now they've had about 90 days to warp, and warp and wind they have
> > done.
> >
> > Now I know its a popular thing to warm up oak in a steam setup, getting
> > the lignite in the oak above 180F softens it and allows it to be bent,
> > and it will retain that bend when cooled again.
> >
> > I'd druther not use steam as this stuff reads 5% and below for moisture,
> > and if its temp alone that allows this, it stands to reason that lignite
> > is lignite and I'd ought to be able to heat this mahogany, and rather
> > than bending it, take the bend/wind back out of it.
> >
> > So obviously I have to make a chamber big enough to take these lids, all
> > 3 of them, which with the bearboards ends and all are around 1 and 1/16"
> > thick, around 23" wide, and about 47" long. Thats a 2x6 frame for
> > height, and half a sheet of plywood for top and bottom.  But without
> > some insulation, hard to heat.  So I am contemplating giveing it a wrap
> > with some 2" blue styro, thats r11 by itself.  That should, because it
> > reduces the cooliing at the far end away from the heat source, even the
> > internal temps.  As for the heat source, I'm considering demolishing an
> > old hair dryer, mainly to remove the plastic as much as possible, at
> > least cutting off the handle, and doing a light dimmer type of control
> > externally to set the heat. I don't care if it takes days to warm it up
> > as theres probably 40 lbs of wood to heat without scorching that which
> > is nearest the heater, only that it does get hot enough eventually. The
> > slower the better and more evenly would seem to be best when dealing
> > with 1/4 a barn door sized stuff.
> >
> > So my lack of info basically consists of how hot do I have to heat this
> > mahogany to the point where it will sag of its own weight and flatten,
> > and, how hot can I get the outside of the box before that blue styro
> > starts getting soggy?  I can put a small probe thru the box resting on
> > the high point, or even stack 20 some pounds on it to add some
> > counterforce to the wind its taken, and by that see it start to flatten.
> > But that may need 200F or a bit more inside the box. IDK about mahogany.
> >
> > Maybe this is something Les Watts can advise on?  Maybe, because the wind
> > is direction in-consistent, I might have to heat each one by itself.
> >
> > Advice needed OIW.
> >
> > Many Thanks to the wood people I know there are a few of here.
> >
> > Cheers, Gene Heskett
> > --
> > "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
> >  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> > -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> > Genes Web page 
> >
> >
> > --
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >
> --
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users


-- 
  John Kasunich
  jmkasun...@fastmail.fm

---

Re: [Emc-users] Wood expertise needed, on bending/flattening mahogany

[BRIAN GLACKIN]

Gene,

Two items,

First - check out http://www.leevalley.com/en/html/05F1501ie.pdf

has a nice writeup on wood bending.  You are likely to find your answers
there.

Secondly, in using the foam, a quick and airtight technique is to connect
your corners of the foam boards with the 3X expansion foam they sell at
home stores.  Once it cures, its locked in giving you a nice strong
corner.  Make sure to leave a 1/2" gap between the pieces so the foam can
expand around each of the adjoining slabs.  I have made air stoppings (in
underground mines) using styro blocks and expanding foam.  It created
surprisingly strong barriers and gave an airtight seal.

Good luck.

On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 1:10 PM, Gene Heskett  wrote:

> Greetings; Mouse miss-fire before;
>
> The lids for these chests were the first things I tried to make out of
> this crappy, poorly seasoned & dried mahogany.
>
> So by now they've had about 90 days to warp, and warp and wind they have
> done.
>
> Now I know its a popular thing to warm up oak in a steam setup, getting
> the lignite in the oak above 180F softens it and allows it to be bent,
> and it will retain that bend when cooled again.
>
> I'd druther not use steam as this stuff reads 5% and below for moisture,
> and if its temp alone that allows this, it stands to reason that lignite
> is lignite and I'd ought to be able to heat this mahogany, and rather
> than bending it, take the bend/wind back out of it.
>
> So obviously I have to make a chamber big enough to take these lids, all
> 3 of them, which with the bearboards ends and all are around 1 and 1/16"
> thick, around 23" wide, and about 47" long. Thats a 2x6 frame for
> height, and half a sheet of plywood for top and bottom.  But without
> some insulation, hard to heat.  So I am contemplating giveing it a wrap
> with some 2" blue styro, thats r11 by itself.  That should, because it
> reduces the cooliing at the far end away from the heat source, even the
> internal temps.  As for the heat source, I'm considering demolishing an
> old hair dryer, mainly to remove the plastic as much as possible, at
> least cutting off the handle, and doing a light dimmer type of control
> externally to set the heat. I don't care if it takes days to warm it up
> as theres probably 40 lbs of wood to heat without scorching that which
> is nearest the heater, only that it does get hot enough eventually. The
> slower the better and more evenly would seem to be best when dealing
> with 1/4 a barn door sized stuff.
>
> So my lack of info basically consists of how hot do I have to heat this
> mahogany to the point where it will sag of its own weight and flatten,
> and, how hot can I get the outside of the box before that blue styro
> starts getting soggy?  I can put a small probe thru the box resting on
> the high point, or even stack 20 some pounds on it to add some
> counterforce to the wind its taken, and by that see it start to flatten.
> But that may need 200F or a bit more inside the box. IDK about mahogany.
>
> Maybe this is something Les Watts can advise on?  Maybe, because the wind
> is direction in-consistent, I might have to heat each one by itself.
>
> Advice needed OIW.
>
> Many Thanks to the wood people I know there are a few of here.
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> --
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> Genes Web page 
>
>
> --
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>
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[Emc-users] Wood expertise needed, on bending/flattening mahogany

[Gene Heskett]

Greetings; Mouse miss-fire before;

The lids for these chests were the first things I tried to make out of 
this crappy, poorly seasoned & dried mahogany.

So by now they've had about 90 days to warp, and warp and wind they have 
done.

Now I know its a popular thing to warm up oak in a steam setup, getting 
the lignite in the oak above 180F softens it and allows it to be bent, 
and it will retain that bend when cooled again.

I'd druther not use steam as this stuff reads 5% and below for moisture, 
and if its temp alone that allows this, it stands to reason that lignite 
is lignite and I'd ought to be able to heat this mahogany, and rather 
than bending it, take the bend/wind back out of it.

So obviously I have to make a chamber big enough to take these lids, all 
3 of them, which with the bearboards ends and all are around 1 and 1/16" 
thick, around 23" wide, and about 47" long. Thats a 2x6 frame for 
height, and half a sheet of plywood for top and bottom.  But without 
some insulation, hard to heat.  So I am contemplating giveing it a wrap 
with some 2" blue styro, thats r11 by itself.  That should, because it 
reduces the cooliing at the far end away from the heat source, even the 
internal temps.  As for the heat source, I'm considering demolishing an 
old hair dryer, mainly to remove the plastic as much as possible, at 
least cutting off the handle, and doing a light dimmer type of control 
externally to set the heat. I don't care if it takes days to warm it up 
as theres probably 40 lbs of wood to heat without scorching that which 
is nearest the heater, only that it does get hot enough eventually. The 
slower the better and more evenly would seem to be best when dealing 
with 1/4 a barn door sized stuff.

So my lack of info basically consists of how hot do I have to heat this 
mahogany to the point where it will sag of its own weight and flatten, 
and, how hot can I get the outside of the box before that blue styro 
starts getting soggy?  I can put a small probe thru the box resting on 
the high point, or even stack 20 some pounds on it to add some 
counterforce to the wind its taken, and by that see it start to flatten.  
But that may need 200F or a bit more inside the box. IDK about mahogany.

Maybe this is something Les Watts can advise on?  Maybe, because the wind 
is direction in-consistent, I might have to heat each one by itself.

Advice needed OIW.

Many Thanks to the wood people I know there are a few of here.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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[Emc-users] Wood expertise needed, on bending

[Gene Heskett]

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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