Re: [Emc-users] ot - very neat
On 01/29/2020 12:16 PM, grumpy--- via Emc-users wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_wk3q8jWcs Hmmm, reminds me a bit of the ancient tracer mills from the dark ages. Jon ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Real-time OS for machine controllers (do not worry to much)
> would not worry too much about who's RTOS you use. The concepts are > universal. First you come up with a high-level design and work out the > interfaces then you need to decide how wide of a range of hardware you need > to support. Then do some prototyping. You will very quickly have your > list down to a small handful. > > People always get hung up on tools.That is not what matters. What > matters is the high level system architecture and how you design the > interfaces between the parts. Agree, what calculator is used does not matter if you do not understand the mathematics book in whatever form you happen to read it nowadays. ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Real-time OS for machine controllers --> Micrium open source
Have been looking at Micrium suspect they might be really good. Tried µC-probe, a really good idea and a really good software to have for real time applications but at least the GUI must have been written by a "modern" programmer with all newly invented programming paradigms or whatever it is called, looked very nice but slow like syrup and did not work well. > Here's a copy of an email I received about the Open-Source Licensing Now > Available for Micrium µC/ RTOS > I haven't used this one but maybe they were losing ground to the Free RTOS? > > John > > > = > During the following weeks, Silicon Labs will transition the µC/ components > to an open-source license model. > By adopting permissive license terms for the µC/ components, we will make the > benefits of this software available to the widest user base possible and give > the embedded community a role in future development efforts. > Please note: This licensing change does not affect our exclusive Micrium OS > software available to developers through Simplicity Studio. Although it’s not > open source, Micrium OS can be used commercially on Silicon Labs’ EFR32 > wireless SoCs and EFM32 microcontrollers (MCUs) with no licensing fees. > We want to ensure a smooth transition to open-source terms for all licensees > of the µC/ software. We will continue to provide technical support for > customers with valid maintenance agreements. We are also working closely with > partners who may offer similar support agreements in the near future. > The new open-source license model will go into effect on February 28, 2020. > Customers currently considering a license or maintenance renewal for any of > the µC/ software components (µC/OS-II, µC/OS-III, µC/FS, µC/TCP-IP, > µC/USB-Device, µC/USB-Host, µC/CAN, and µC/Modbus) have two options: > 1.Submit a PO for the µC/ part numbers until February 7. Any purchases > made during this period will include technical support through the end of > 2020. > 2.Once the new licensing terms for the µC/ components are in place, you > may obtain the software at no cost for commercial use (without technical > support from Silicon Labs) > == > > > > -Original Message- > > From: N [mailto:nicklas.karlsso...@gmail.com] > > Sent: January-28-20 11:55 AM > > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) > > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Real-time OS for machine controllers > > > > rtems could without doubt be worth a try but have only used FreeRTOS and > > it work. > > > > FreerRTOS usually run scheduler at 1kHz and using one of the newer Micro > > controllers like Cortex-Mx which is a very common CPU in these with > > prioritized interrupts for higher priorities work really well. There is also > > support calling some of the functions from within interrupts but not all > > since > > they are not allowed to block. > > > > It might be this prioritized interrupt controller may make FreeRTOS work > > really well since then interrupts could be assigned a priority so that they > > are > > correctly scheduled and guess this is not the case on an ordinary computer. > > > > > > Guess NML would be a better choice for remote display. > > > > > > > FreeRTOS sure is popular. Have you compared it to other open source > > > Posix standard real-time OS's such as NuttX and RTEMS? > > > > > > http://www.nuttx.org/ > > > > > > http://rtems.com/ > > > > > > Any thoughts? I haven't worked with any real-time OS's much since the > > > 80-90's. > > > > > > > > > On 1/21/20 2:22 PM, Chris Albertson wrote: > > > > Doing a fresh start in 2020, I'd pick a 32-bit microcontroller platform > > > > and > > > > then a "hard" real-time OS that is portable over a wide rand of 32-bit > > > > microcontrollers. FreeRTOS would be a example of this. See > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FreeRTOS > > > > These OSes are nothing at all like Linux. They have no user interface > > > > and > > > > are linked with the application. ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Open source CNC architecture
> > ... > > The mindset at the larger companies is not one of the 'time is money' > rather than a cya attitude. The manager of the larger company answers to an > entity above. The entity above doesn't make the decision to install > LinuxCNC or not. The manager of the company makes the decision. The manager > will decide based upon whether the decision is justifiable to keep his job. Heard that no one got fired for buying an IBM. Also remember an old IBM computer on my workplace and a middle aged man mysteriously quitting. ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] ot - very neat
> Best in mind that Shaper Origin is only as accurate as the position sticker > strips. From my understanding, you do need to follow a prescribed pattern of placing the marker tape but you don’t need to be very accurate. The tape is merely a “marker” placed “wherever”. The trick is in accurately tracking the motion of these markers, as observed through the camera system. Most modern smartphones do something similar with their augmented reality stuff, albeit with random environmental features in lieu of predefined marking tape, and probably with less accuracy. ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Open source CNC architecture
On Tue, 28 Jan 2020 22:27:01 -0800 Chris Albertson wrote: > On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 11:06 AM Gene Heskett wrote: > > > On Monday 27 January 2020 11:39:27 dave engvall wrote: > > > > > Linuxcnc get used because it works ... at least well enough to get > > > most jobs done. > > > > The topic came up because someone asked if anyone was using LinuxCNC for > large scale work. No one raised their hand. Why are they not using > LinuxCNC to make transmission parts at the Toyota factory? It seems to be > powering a few one-man shops and some hobby projects. Are in doubt is a good idea to make parts for large company. Don't know but expect they are very likely to make complaint and claim high damages. Not sure if got last sentence correct. What I would expect then making part for a large company is a lot of work and little money at best. It might be you need is machine from one of large companies, or at least measurement machine from one of the large companies to fight there claims. > Why? Someone might think that open source is not usable in industrial > settings but. That is clearly not true. It must be something about > LinuxCNC that makes it unsuitable. I'm guessing itis the platform and > that it does not work well out of the box and is basically just a kt of > parts and not a product and it does not scale well to large factory floor > sized systems. Expensive companies usually claim a well known brand is better. > But it does work well-enough for small shops where the owner is willing to > invest much of his own time. Might be a good point, if there is not enough money in case something does not work as expected investing some more time might be a possibility for a small one man workshop. Then salary is not everything, your own workshop nearby then no time need to be spent on traveling nor money, it might also happen workshop is located on country side there living is cheap and usually it's rather boring to work in a factory. ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] ot - very neat
> On 29 Jan 2020, at 20:40, Stuart Stevenson wrote: > > Install this on a machine. The accuracy of the machine would not have to be > very close. Best in mind that Shaper Origin is only as accurate as the position sticker strips. But the idea of an accurate sub-axis on an inaccurate main axis certainly has merit. It’s equivalent to LinuxCNC on a sloppy machine with linear scales. ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] ot - very neat
Install this on a machine. The accuracy of the machine would not have to be very close. This would allow a VERY cheap machine to manufacture to pretty good tolerances. Maybe a robot arm. Use this with a probe on a robot arm to collect geometric data for inspection. On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 12:30 PM Andy Pugh wrote: > > > > On 29 Jan 2020, at 20:18, grumpy--- via Emc-users < > emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote: > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_wk3q8jWcs > > It’s one of the best ideas I have seen. Really clever. (I have been > following it for years). > > I have never _quite_ had an excuse to buy one. > > Nice example use a few years ago when it was a new thing. > > https://youtu.be/lfmrvxB154w > > > ___ > Emc-users mailing list > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users > -- Addressee is the intended audience. If you are not the addressee then my consent is not given for you to read this email furthermore it is my wish you would close this without saving or reading, and cease and desist from saving or opening my private correspondence. Thank you for honoring my wish. ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] ot - very neat
> On 29 Jan 2020, at 20:18, grumpy--- via Emc-users > wrote: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_wk3q8jWcs It’s one of the best ideas I have seen. Really clever. (I have been following it for years). I have never _quite_ had an excuse to buy one. Nice example use a few years ago when it was a new thing. https://youtu.be/lfmrvxB154w ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
[Emc-users] ot - very neat
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_wk3q8jWcs ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Open source CNC architecture
On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 3:34 AM Les Newell wrote: > > > Why are they not using > > LinuxCNC to make transmission parts at the Toyota factory? ... It must > be something about > > LinuxCNC that makes it unsuitable. > > Large companies want a known brand high end machine with a comprehensive > support contract. Big CNC manufacturers use either their own control or > a big name control manufacturer such as Siemens. If they have their own > control they aren't going to switch to anything else because they have a > huge amount of time and money invested in their current systems. If they > use someone else's control they want a complete hardware + software > package with support. Either way they aren't going to even consider > LinuxCNC and that is unlikely to change, no matter how good LinuxCNC is. > The mindset at the larger companies is not one of the 'time is money' rather than a cya attitude. The manager of the larger company answers to an entity above. The entity above doesn't make the decision to install LinuxCNC or not. The manager of the company makes the decision. The manager will decide based upon whether the decision is justifiable to keep his job. The paradigm shift lever is VERY difficult to move from expensive but justifiable to cheaper but very possibly not justifiable. The known entity of expensive set it and forget it is a hard nut to crack. For a smaller company a customer will evaluate the equipment list to determine the capability and reliability of the vendor's equipment. The old adage of "buy the same equipment as your customer" plays very well in the vendor evaluation process. A secondary consideration in the reliability evaluation is "how many of one machine does the vendor have?". In my world, for production parts, a customer would like to see three machines available for two machines if work. That assures machine capability at all times. A machine can go down and the vendor will still have the ability to deliver parts. We are talking about the 'get in the door' time frame. As trust is developed a customer will allow a vendor to violate the ratio but it takes a long time to develop that trust. Another factor in the trust arena is many companies move the buyers around to break the relationship between the individual buyer and vendor. Trust leads to abuse. In those cases the vendor is always facing the trust issues. There remains a trusted history between the customer and vendor but the individual buyer will 'cya' until the individual buyer begins to trust the vendor. Rinse - Repeat Remember - 1000 ataboys can be erased by one 'ah shit'. Another story In 1997 I purchased a 5 axis license from OpenCNC (MDSI2). OpenCNC (closed source) ran on QNX RTOS (closed source) using hardware from a list of . The Open meant OpenCNC didn't have hardware to sell but they supported a limited list of approved vendors (all closed source). The hardware vendors were very proud of their offerings. I ended up with three 5 axis machines running OpenCNC. I had to have a license to run each machine. Software and hardware was something just south of USD20,000.00 per machine. One of the machines was running OpenCNC (QNX) until 2017. Open had a slightly different meaning than we think of open today. :) I will say I liked their product. Their total package including documentation was complete enough I was able to install, configure and run it with minimal contact with OpenCNC staff. They were very helpful and knowledgeable. A very polished organization. I purchased their API and would probably still be running their software today but in the next release they left QNX and settled exclusively on Windows and Venturcom RTOS. They would no longer support QNX. I almost cried. I called my contact and told him they just lost me as I would not purposely install Windows on my machine. For me this was preLinux. I came from (I am no VMS guru) VMS and Windows. I know the difference between a productive OS and a pretty OS. I am almost glad OpenCNC took the direction they took because if they had not left QNX I probably would not have found LinuxCNC. When I bought the software OpenCNC was already in one of the big three in Detroit. The requirement was OpenCNC has to look and respond EXACTLY like all the other controls in the shop. I was told it took the tech department in said shop one day to develop the human interface screen and MDSI configured OpenCNC to run just like all the other controls in the shop. I don't know if that project is ongoing. A 300 man shop South of Wichita started installing OpenCNC after I had completed my installs. I knew a couple of the techs installing OpenCNC there and a couple operators running it. All reports were the techs and the operators loved it and lobbied for it to be installed on every machine. I don't know if that project is ongoing as my contacts have either died or retired. A four or five man group from Cessna visited my shop to evaluate OpenCNC. I believe it was an operator, a
Re: [Emc-users] Open source CNC architecture
On 01/29/2020 12:27 AM, Chris Albertson wrote: The topic came up because someone asked if anyone was using LinuxCNC for large scale work. No one raised their hand. Why are they not using LinuxCNC to make transmission parts at the Toyota factory? It seems to be powering a few one-man shops and some hobby projects. I met a guy from Sweden that has a 9-man shop, all machines ran the old EMC2 back then. At one time, Stuart Stevenson was part of MPM in Wichita, they had several machines running EMC2 (later LinuxCNC) on "Big Iron" (videos have been posted previously). He has now left MPM and has his own shop a short distance away. I recently met our documentation expert (John Thornton) and all his shop runs on LinuxCNC. Dewey Garret does ornamental wood carving with LinuxCNC as a commercial business. I can't point you to any other specific sites, but I know there are a bunch of commercial shops using it. Now, big manufacturers like Toyota, GM, Honda, etc. want to buy turnkey machines for auto manufacturing. But, in fact, almost all that work is done by custom machines such as rotary transfer machines, that are purpose built to make one specific part in incredible volume. They probably do ZERO actual part manufacturing on traditional mills and lathes. Jon ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Open source CNC architecture
Why are they not using LinuxCNC to make transmission parts at the Toyota factory? ... It must be something about LinuxCNC that makes it unsuitable. Large companies want a known brand high end machine with a comprehensive support contract. Big CNC manufacturers use either their own control or a big name control manufacturer such as Siemens. If they have their own control they aren't going to switch to anything else because they have a huge amount of time and money invested in their current systems. If they use someone else's control they want a complete hardware + software package with support. Either way they aren't going to even consider LinuxCNC and that is unlikely to change, no matter how good LinuxCNC is. Smaller CNC manufacturers are a different story. There are a number of smaller plasma and CNC router manufacturers using LinuxCNC with considerable success. Tormach is another example of a smaller manufacturer using LinuxCNC to run a range of CNC machines. and is basically just a kt of parts and not a product and it does not scale well to large factory floor sized systems. LinuxCNC is a small open source project. It could scale well for large machines but it doesn't have the comprehensive support you would get from a closed source control manufacturer. For end users time is money so support is a major deciding factor. Les ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
