Re: [Emc-users] OT - simple motor wiring

[N]

> > On 21 Jan 2020, at 18:30, Jon Elson  wrote:
> > 
> >  The black-red winding has huge inductance -- HALF a Henry!
> 
> It is a 3W 120V motor. It’s going to eat milliamperes.

Maybe not to few, I would expect low efficiency.


___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] OT - simple motor wiring

[Andy Pugh]

> On 21 Jan 2020, at 18:30, Jon Elson  wrote:
> 
>  The black-red winding has huge inductance -- HALF a Henry!

It is a 3W 120V motor. It’s going to eat milliamperes. 



___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] OT - simple motor wiring

[Jon Elson]

On 01/21/2020 07:23 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
As a first try, I'd put the 4mfd cap in series with the 
black-red coil, but I'd also bring it up with a powerstat 
in case I'm wrong. If it runs weak and hot, move the cap 
to the other winding. Which ever runs cooler and with more 
torque is correct.
Interesting!  Many of these small motors set up for 
permanent split capacitor are "symmetrical", ie both windings
have similar inductance and resistance.  This allows the 
simplest reversing scheme.  You tie two wires together to
neutral.  The capacitor goes between the two ends of the 
windings. A SPDT switch connects line to either end of the cap.


But, this motor clearly is NOT symmetrical!  The black-red 
winding has huge inductance -- HALF a Henry!
That is a reactance of 188 Ohms at 60 Hz, so the current at 
120 V would never exceed half an amp.
The Blue-Yellow is TWICE that.  These inductances seem way 
too big. But, maybe that is for inductance
protection of the motor at stall.  Possibly, this is a 
torque motor, intended to hold torque on a tape reel

or something like that, and not run at constant speed.

Jon


___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] OT - simple motor wiring

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 21 January 2020 08:08:58 grumpy--- via Emc-users wrote:

> On Tue, 21 Jan 2020, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Tuesday 21 January 2020 00:46:46 Roland Jollivet wrote:
> >> You can see the yellow wire bound with the others in the first pic.
> >> I'm sure it's a coil wire.
> >> Usually the frame wire is bolted to the ... frame.
> >>
> >> You should measure the resistance of the two coils. They're quite
> >> different. I'm not sure what the rule of thumb is on which is the
> >> start winding, but it's out there.
> >>
> >> Roland
> >>
> >> On Mon, 20 Jan 2020 at 22:02, Peter Blodow  
wrote:
> >>> But this motor comes from Japan and, not knowing anything else,
> >>> might very well be designed for the European market.
> >>> Peter
> >>>
> >>> Am 20.01.2020 um 19:31 schrieb Dr. Andreas O. Lindner:
>  Hello, green-yellow is protected ground only in central Europe.
>  In US it
> >>>
> >>> is a bare wire !
> >>>
>  Just my 2 cents,
>  Andreas
> 
> > Am 20.01.2020 um 18:48 schrieb Peter Blodow :
> >
> > Isn't there something written on the green-yellow wire? In any
> > case:
> >>>
> >>> don't connect any power to this wire, its PROTECTIVE GROUND!
> >>>
> > Peter
> >
> > Am 20.01.2020 um 18:21 schrieb grumpy--- via Emc-users:
> >> thanks men
> >> got it
> >> neutral to black and blue
> >> one side of capacitor to red
> >> other side of capacitor to yellow
> >> connect line to red or yellow
> >
> > I think I've seen both ways.  Sometimes the raw power is the run
> > winding with the higher resistance and inductance, with the lower
> > resistance cap tuned winding actually taking more current because of
> > the resonance, and because of the cap, generates the magnetic phase
> > difference that makes it run. That is the first config I'd try, but
> > I'd also bring it up at half voltage from a powerstat to judge how
> > hot it runs. It likely will run in either config, but starting
> > torque will suffer and it will run hotter in the wrong config. Both
> > the winding R and the inductance are part of such a motors design.
> >
> > One would be on much firmer footing if your meter can measure
> > inductance, then the capacitor should be in series with the coil
> > having the least inductance as that would generate the maximum phase
> > difference.
> >
> > Cheers, Gene Heskett
>
> according to my handy little peak lcr40 meter
> blue to yellow is 1.130H and 459.6 ohms
> black to red is 507.1mH and 191.0 ohms

As a first try, I'd put the 4mfd cap in series with the black-red coil, 
but I'd also bring it up with a powerstat in case I'm wrong. If it runs 
weak and hot, move the cap to the other winding. Which ever runs cooler 
and with more torque is correct.
>
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] OT - simple motor wiring

[grumpy--- via Emc-users]

On Tue, 21 Jan 2020, Gene Heskett wrote:


On Tuesday 21 January 2020 00:46:46 Roland Jollivet wrote:


You can see the yellow wire bound with the others in the first pic.
I'm sure it's a coil wire.
Usually the frame wire is bolted to the ... frame.

You should measure the resistance of the two coils. They're quite
different. I'm not sure what the rule of thumb is on which is the
start winding, but it's out there.

Roland

On Mon, 20 Jan 2020 at 22:02, Peter Blodow  wrote:

But this motor comes from Japan and, not knowing anything else,
might very well be designed for the European market.
Peter

Am 20.01.2020 um 19:31 schrieb Dr. Andreas O. Lindner:

Hello, green-yellow is protected ground only in central Europe. In
US it


is a bare wire !


Just my 2 cents,
Andreas


Am 20.01.2020 um 18:48 schrieb Peter Blodow :

Isn't there something written on the green-yellow wire? In any
case:


don't connect any power to this wire, its PROTECTIVE GROUND!


Peter

Am 20.01.2020 um 18:21 schrieb grumpy--- via Emc-users:

thanks men
got it
neutral to black and blue
one side of capacitor to red
other side of capacitor to yellow
connect line to red or yellow


I think I've seen both ways.  Sometimes the raw power is the run winding
with the higher resistance and inductance, with the lower resistance cap
tuned winding actually taking more current because of the resonance, and
because of the cap, generates the magnetic phase difference that makes
it run. That is the first config I'd try, but I'd also bring it up at
half voltage from a powerstat to judge how hot it runs. It likely will
run in either config, but starting torque will suffer and it will run
hotter in the wrong config. Both the winding R and the inductance are
part of such a motors design.

One would be on much firmer footing if your meter can measure inductance,
then the capacitor should be in series with the coil having the least
inductance as that would generate the maximum phase difference.

Cheers, Gene Heskett



according to my handy little peak lcr40 meter
blue to yellow is 1.130H and 459.6 ohms
black to red is 507.1mH and 191.0 ohms


___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] OT - simple motor wiring

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 21 January 2020 00:46:46 Roland Jollivet wrote:

> You can see the yellow wire bound with the others in the first pic.
> I'm sure it's a coil wire.
> Usually the frame wire is bolted to the ... frame.
>
> You should measure the resistance of the two coils. They're quite
> different. I'm not sure what the rule of thumb is on which is the
> start winding, but it's out there.
>
> Roland
>
> On Mon, 20 Jan 2020 at 22:02, Peter Blodow  wrote:
> > But this motor comes from Japan and, not knowing anything else,
> > might very well be designed for the European market.
> > Peter
> >
> > Am 20.01.2020 um 19:31 schrieb Dr. Andreas O. Lindner:
> > > Hello, green-yellow is protected ground only in central Europe. In
> > > US it
> >
> > is a bare wire !
> >
> > > Just my 2 cents,
> > > Andreas
> > >
> > >> Am 20.01.2020 um 18:48 schrieb Peter Blodow :
> > >>
> > >> Isn't there something written on the green-yellow wire? In any
> > >> case:
> >
> > don't connect any power to this wire, its PROTECTIVE GROUND!
> >
> > >> Peter
> > >>
> > >> Am 20.01.2020 um 18:21 schrieb grumpy--- via Emc-users:
> > >>> thanks men
> > >>> got it
> > >>> neutral to black and blue
> > >>> one side of capacitor to red
> > >>> other side of capacitor to yellow
> > >>> connect line to red or yellow
> > >>>
I think I've seen both ways.  Sometimes the raw power is the run winding 
with the higher resistance and inductance, with the lower resistance cap 
tuned winding actually taking more current because of the resonance, and 
because of the cap, generates the magnetic phase difference that makes 
it run. That is the first config I'd try, but I'd also bring it up at 
half voltage from a powerstat to judge how hot it runs. It likely will 
run in either config, but starting torque will suffer and it will run 
hotter in the wrong config. Both the winding R and the inductance are 
part of such a motors design.

One would be on much firmer footing if your meter can measure inductance, 
then the capacitor should be in series with the coil having the least 
inductance as that would generate the maximum phase difference.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

[Emc-users] OT - simple motor wiring

[Roland Jollivet]

You can see the yellow wire bound with the others in the first pic. I'm
sure it's a coil wire.
Usually the frame wire is bolted to the ... frame.

You should measure the resistance of the two coils. They're quite
different. I'm not sure what the rule of thumb is on which is the start
winding, but it's out there.

Roland



On Mon, 20 Jan 2020 at 22:02, Peter Blodow  wrote:

> But this motor comes from Japan and, not knowing anything else, might
> very well be designed for the European market.
> Peter
>
> Am 20.01.2020 um 19:31 schrieb Dr. Andreas O. Lindner:
> > Hello, green-yellow is protected ground only in central Europe. In US it
> is a bare wire !
> >
> > Just my 2 cents,
> > Andreas
> >
> >
> >
> >> Am 20.01.2020 um 18:48 schrieb Peter Blodow :
> >>
> >> Isn't there something written on the green-yellow wire? In any case:
> don't connect any power to this wire, its PROTECTIVE GROUND!
> >> Peter
> >>
> >> Am 20.01.2020 um 18:21 schrieb grumpy--- via Emc-users:
> >>> thanks men
> >>> got it
> >>> neutral to black and blue
> >>> one side of capacitor to red
> >>> other side of capacitor to yellow
> >>> connect line to red or yellow
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ___
> >>> Emc-users mailing list
> >>> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> ___
> >> Emc-users mailing list
> >> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >
>
>
>
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>

___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] OT - simple motor wiring

[Peter Blodow]

But this motor comes from Japan and, not knowing anything else, might 
very well be designed for the European market.

Peter

Am 20.01.2020 um 19:31 schrieb Dr. Andreas O. Lindner:

Hello, green-yellow is protected ground only in central Europe. In US it is a 
bare wire !

Just my 2 cents,
Andreas




Am 20.01.2020 um 18:48 schrieb Peter Blodow :

Isn't there something written on the green-yellow wire? In any case: don't 
connect any power to this wire, its PROTECTIVE GROUND!
Peter

Am 20.01.2020 um 18:21 schrieb grumpy--- via Emc-users:

thanks men
got it
neutral to black and blue
one side of capacitor to red
other side of capacitor to yellow
connect line to red or yellow


___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users




___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users


___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users





___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] OT - simple motor wiring

[grumpy--- via Emc-users]

On Mon, 20 Jan 2020, Peter Blodow wrote:

Isn't there something written on the green-yellow wire? In any case: don't 
connect any power to this wire, its PROTECTIVE GROUND!


i can not see any writing on the yellow wire
my old vom shows none of the wires are connected to the frame


___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] OT - simple motor wiring

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 20 January 2020 13:31:40 Dr. Andreas O. Lindner wrote:

> Hello, green-yellow is protected ground only in central Europe. In US
> it is a bare wire !
>
But only in rigid wireing in conduit. In flexible "IEC" line cords, blue 
or green depending on its age and country sourced from.
> Just my 2 cents,
> Andreas
>
> > Am 20.01.2020 um 18:48 schrieb Peter Blodow :
> >
> > Isn't there something written on the green-yellow wire? In any case:
> > don't connect any power to this wire, its PROTECTIVE GROUND! Peter
> >
> > Am 20.01.2020 um 18:21 schrieb grumpy--- via Emc-users:
> >> thanks men
> >> got it
> >> neutral to black and blue
> >> one side of capacitor to red
> >> other side of capacitor to yellow
> >> connect line to red or yellow
> >>
> >>
> >> ___
> >> Emc-users mailing list
> >> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] OT - simple motor wiring

[Dr. Andreas O. Lindner]

Hello, green-yellow is protected ground only in central Europe. In US it is a 
bare wire !

Just my 2 cents,
Andreas



> Am 20.01.2020 um 18:48 schrieb Peter Blodow :
> 
> Isn't there something written on the green-yellow wire? In any case: don't 
> connect any power to this wire, its PROTECTIVE GROUND!
> Peter
> 
> Am 20.01.2020 um 18:21 schrieb grumpy--- via Emc-users:
>> thanks men
>> got it
>> neutral to black and blue
>> one side of capacitor to red
>> other side of capacitor to yellow
>> connect line to red or yellow
>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> Emc-users mailing list
>> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users


___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] OT - simple motor wiring

[Peter Blodow]

Isn't there something written on the green-yellow wire? In any case: 
don't connect any power to this wire, its PROTECTIVE GROUND!

Peter

Am 20.01.2020 um 18:21 schrieb grumpy--- via Emc-users:

thanks men
got it
neutral to black and blue
one side of capacitor to red
other side of capacitor to yellow
connect line to red or yellow


___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users





___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] OT - simple motor wiring

[grumpy--- via Emc-users]

thanks men
got it
neutral to black and blue
one side of capacitor to red
other side of capacitor to yellow
connect line to red or yellow


___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] OT - simple motor wiring

[Jon Elson]

On 01/20/2020 08:36 AM, grumpy--- via Emc-users wrote:

a friend gave me this gear motor
he knows nothing about it and i can not find a wiring diagram
i have confirmed with an ohm meter that the yellow and 
blue wires are connected and the red and black wires are 
connected
Yes, you need a 4 uF oil-paper run capacitor.  You connect 
one winding to the mains, directly, and one with the
capacitor in series.  Depending on how you connect it, you 
can get it to run either direction.


Jon


___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] OT - simple motor wiring

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 20 January 2020 10:23:47 Ken Strauss wrote:

> Are the wires actually connected or just joined by a relatively low
> resistance? My guess is 50/60 Hz power to red/black and 4mfd capacitor
> between yellow and blue.
>
Or better yet, I'd put black and blue to the neutral, red to the hot and 
and one side of the 4mfd cap with the other side of the cap to the 
yellow.  Reverse either pair, but not both to change its direction of 
rotation. Thats my first guess.

> > -Original Message-
> > From: grumpy--- via Emc-users
> > [mailto:emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net] Sent: Monday, January 20,
> > 2020 9:36 AM
> > To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > Cc: gru...@mailfence.com
> > Subject: [Emc-users] OT - simple motor wiring
> >
> > a friend gave me this gear motor
> > he knows nothing about it and i can not find a wiring diagram i have
> > confirmed with an ohm meter that the yellow and blue wires are
> > connected and the red and black wires are connected any ideas
>
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>


___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] OT - simple motor wiring

[Peter Blodow]

Hello,
this motor is a three phase induction motor where the third is supplied 
by a phase shifter condenser. This makes a unsymmetrical revolving 
magnetic field with 90 + 90 + 120 degres phase angle. This unsymmetry 
reduces efficiency, but no three phase suply is needed. It seems to be 
made according to european usage:

green-yellow = protective ground (earth)
blue = neutral, i.e. 0 V ~
black = phase (100 V~ in this case)
red = condenser 4 Microfarad 200 V~ as indicated, the other condenser 
lead is to be connected to either blue or brown depending on the sense 
of rotation desired.
Don't rely on your DC measurements, red and black are surely not a zero 
ohms connection. Put a low power light bulb in series with the supply 
source for testing to make sure there will be no short circuit.


Good luck!
Peter Blodow


Am 20.01.2020 um 15:36 schrieb grumpy--- via Emc-users:

a friend gave me this gear motor
he knows nothing about it and i can not find a wiring diagram
i have confirmed with an ohm meter that the yellow and blue wires are 
connected and the red and black wires are connected

any ideas




___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users



___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Re: [Emc-users] OT - simple motor wiring

[Ken Strauss]

Are the wires actually connected or just joined by a relatively low
resistance? My guess is 50/60 Hz power to red/black and 4mfd capacitor
between yellow and blue.

> -Original Message-
> From: grumpy--- via Emc-users [mailto:emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net]
> Sent: Monday, January 20, 2020 9:36 AM
> To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> Cc: gru...@mailfence.com
> Subject: [Emc-users] OT - simple motor wiring
>
> a friend gave me this gear motor
> he knows nothing about it and i can not find a wiring diagram i have
> confirmed with an ohm meter that the yellow and blue wires are connected
> and the red and black wires are connected any ideas




___
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users