Re: [Emc-users] PCIe vs Ethernet Mesa card?

[Sam Sokolik]

I have been using mesa Ethernet cards from their inception.   I think I can
count on one hand the number of times linuxcnc couldn't find the card.  (
and they were probably my fault). Except for the really early days when you
had to build rt_preemp - I mostly use the linuxcnc stretch livecd for my
installs.  I am also using the 7i92 on the pi4 and don't remember it not
being found.

Sam

On Tue, Jul 7, 2020, 7:06 AM Ken Strauss  wrote:

> Possibly it is a DHCP timeout issue. The 7i92 has three choices for IP
> address: 192.168.1.121, BOOTP or configured in the EEPROM. The 192...
> address is the usual choice. Consider how the host determines the address
> if
> it is set using BOOTP.
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Chris Albertson [mailto:albertson.ch...@gmail.com]
> > Sent: Monday, July 06, 2020 11:57 PM
> > To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] PCIe vs Ethernet Mesa card?
> >
> > Could the delay be caused by DHCP?  If the computer does a DHCP query and
> > does not find a DHCP server it will re-try perhaps many times.   The
> > solution would be "don't do that" and assign a fixed IP address.
> >
> > Has anyone actually tried using the same Ethernet for normal uses and
> > connected to Mesa at the same time or did you just assume it would not
> > work?   I wonder if a managed switch could make it work using a VLAN
> or
> > some other trick involving level of service priority
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 3:19 PM Jon Elson  wrote:
> >
> > > On 07/06/2020 03:51 PM, John Dammeyer wrote:
> > > >> From: andy pugh [mailto:bodge...@gmail.com]
> > > >> On Mon, 6 Jul 2020 at 21:22, Chris Albertson
> > 
> > > wrote:
> > > >>> Is there any advantage to using a bus connected Mesa card like the
> > > 6i25 vs
> > > >>> using one of the Ethernet-connected cards such as 7i92M or 7i93
> > > >> PCI might be more reliable. Not so much during runs, but at startup.
> > > >> It is quite easy to imagine something changing the network setup of
> > > >> your machine, and finding that you just can't get it to run.
> > > > No experience with the PCI cards but what I have noticed with my
> 7i92H
> > > is that after I boot and sign on into Linux it's important that I go
> and
> do
> > > something else for a few minutes.   Then come back and click on the
> icon
> > > that runs the actual LinuxCNC Axis program that uses the HAL file for
> the
> > > 7i92H.
> > > >
> > > > Seems otherwise the Ethernet connection to the 7i92H can't be found
> for
> > > the first few minutes.
> > > >
> > > > There may well be some parameter that can be set so the 7i92H
> Ethernet
> > > connection happens faster.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > This may be due to connmanctl trying to figure out what
> > > network is running on the port that is connected to the Mesa
> > > board.  There may be a way to tell connmanctl to not touch
> > > that port.
> > >
> > > Jon
> > >
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Emc-users mailing list
> > > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Chris Albertson
> > Redondo Beach, California
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] PCIe vs Ethernet Mesa card?

[Ken Strauss]

Possibly it is a DHCP timeout issue. The 7i92 has three choices for IP
address: 192.168.1.121, BOOTP or configured in the EEPROM. The 192...
address is the usual choice. Consider how the host determines the address if
it is set using BOOTP.

> -Original Message-
> From: Chris Albertson [mailto:albertson.ch...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Monday, July 06, 2020 11:57 PM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] PCIe vs Ethernet Mesa card?
>
> Could the delay be caused by DHCP?  If the computer does a DHCP query and
> does not find a DHCP server it will re-try perhaps many times.   The
> solution would be "don't do that" and assign a fixed IP address.
>
> Has anyone actually tried using the same Ethernet for normal uses and
> connected to Mesa at the same time or did you just assume it would not
> work?   I wonder if a managed switch could make it work using a VLAN
or
> some other trick involving level of service priority
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 3:19 PM Jon Elson  wrote:
>
> > On 07/06/2020 03:51 PM, John Dammeyer wrote:
> > >> From: andy pugh [mailto:bodge...@gmail.com]
> > >> On Mon, 6 Jul 2020 at 21:22, Chris Albertson
> 
> > wrote:
> > >>> Is there any advantage to using a bus connected Mesa card like the
> > 6i25 vs
> > >>> using one of the Ethernet-connected cards such as 7i92M or 7i93
> > >> PCI might be more reliable. Not so much during runs, but at startup.
> > >> It is quite easy to imagine something changing the network setup of
> > >> your machine, and finding that you just can't get it to run.
> > > No experience with the PCI cards but what I have noticed with my 7i92H
> > is that after I boot and sign on into Linux it's important that I go and
do
> > something else for a few minutes.   Then come back and click on the icon
> > that runs the actual LinuxCNC Axis program that uses the HAL file for
the
> > 7i92H.
> > >
> > > Seems otherwise the Ethernet connection to the 7i92H can't be found
for
> > the first few minutes.
> > >
> > > There may well be some parameter that can be set so the 7i92H Ethernet
> > connection happens faster.
> > >
> > >
> > This may be due to connmanctl trying to figure out what
> > network is running on the port that is connected to the Mesa
> > board.  There may be a way to tell connmanctl to not touch
> > that port.
> >
> > Jon
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> >
>
>
> --
>
> Chris Albertson
> Redondo Beach, California
>
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Re: [Emc-users] PCIe vs Ethernet Mesa card?

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 07 July 2020 03:36:22 N wrote:

> > Could the delay be caused by DHCP?  If the computer does a DHCP
> > query and does not find a DHCP server it will re-try perhaps many
> > times.   The solution would be "don't do that" and assign a fixed IP
> > address.
>
> I have assigned static IP address and even so some kind of messages
> are sent periodically, it work well enough maybe even with margin but
> they are not supposed to be there.
>
> In an older version I had some kind of IP rule restricting access to
> ohters.
>
> > Has anyone actually tried using the same Ethernet for normal uses
> > and connected to Mesa at the same time or did you just assume it
> > would not work?   I wonder if a managed switch could make it
> > work using a VLAN or some other trick involving level of service
> > priority
>
> I have tried and it run well but are uncertain but guess there is
> nothing restricting Ethernet messages for other purposes interrupting
> these for machine. Guess the only good possibility here is two
> Ethernet cards and maybe some kind of IP rule to restrict access to
> others.
>
I have seen situations where the arp daemon was issueing "who has" 
queries frequently when that address isn't properly known to the system.
wireshark should catch the offender in any case.
>
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] PCIe vs Ethernet Mesa card?

[N]

> Could the delay be caused by DHCP?  If the computer does a DHCP query and
> does not find a DHCP server it will re-try perhaps many times.   The
> solution would be "don't do that" and assign a fixed IP address.

I have assigned static IP address and even so some kind of messages are sent 
periodically, it work well enough maybe even with margin but they are not 
supposed to be there.

In an older version I had some kind of IP rule restricting access to ohters.

> Has anyone actually tried using the same Ethernet for normal uses and
> connected to Mesa at the same time or did you just assume it would not
> work?   I wonder if a managed switch could make it work using a VLAN or
> some other trick involving level of service priority

I have tried and it run well but are uncertain but guess there is nothing 
restricting Ethernet messages for other purposes interrupting these for 
machine. Guess the only good possibility here is two Ethernet cards and maybe 
some kind of IP rule to restrict access to others.


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Re: [Emc-users] PCIe vs Ethernet Mesa card?

[John Dammeyer]

> -Original Message-
> From: Chris Albertson [mailto:albertson.ch...@gmail.com]
> 
> Could the delay be caused by DHCP?  If the computer does a DHCP query and
> does not find a DHCP server it will re-try perhaps many times.   The
> solution would be "don't do that" and assign a fixed IP address.
> 
> Has anyone actually tried using the same Ethernet for normal uses and
> connected to Mesa at the same time or did you just assume it would not
> work?   I wonder if a managed switch could make it work using a VLAN or
> some other trick involving level of service priority
> 
Possible.  In either case, I don't believe it's a good idea to mix regular 
Ethernet traffic with Real Time Machine control traffic.  Think of the 7i92 
ethernet link as a dedicated serial port connection no different than say an 
SPI port or even Ethercat (I know very little about that).

For example I would use CAN bus for controlling relays, tool changers, pick and 
place, punches, even press and shear operations etc.   But I wouldn't use it 
for real time closed loop motor control. It wasn't designed for that.

Keep the real time part separate from the user interface part.

John Dammeyer



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Re: [Emc-users] PCIe vs Ethernet Mesa card?

[Chris Albertson]

Could the delay be caused by DHCP?  If the computer does a DHCP query and
does not find a DHCP server it will re-try perhaps many times.   The
solution would be "don't do that" and assign a fixed IP address.

Has anyone actually tried using the same Ethernet for normal uses and
connected to Mesa at the same time or did you just assume it would not
work?   I wonder if a managed switch could make it work using a VLAN or
some other trick involving level of service priority



On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 3:19 PM Jon Elson  wrote:

> On 07/06/2020 03:51 PM, John Dammeyer wrote:
> >> From: andy pugh [mailto:bodge...@gmail.com]
> >> On Mon, 6 Jul 2020 at 21:22, Chris Albertson 
> wrote:
> >>> Is there any advantage to using a bus connected Mesa card like the
> 6i25 vs
> >>> using one of the Ethernet-connected cards such as 7i92M or 7i93
> >> PCI might be more reliable. Not so much during runs, but at startup.
> >> It is quite easy to imagine something changing the network setup of
> >> your machine, and finding that you just can't get it to run.
> > No experience with the PCI cards but what I have noticed with my 7i92H
> is that after I boot and sign on into Linux it's important that I go and do
> something else for a few minutes.   Then come back and click on the icon
> that runs the actual LinuxCNC Axis program that uses the HAL file for the
> 7i92H.
> >
> > Seems otherwise the Ethernet connection to the 7i92H can't be found for
> the first few minutes.
> >
> > There may well be some parameter that can be set so the 7i92H Ethernet
> connection happens faster.
> >
> >
> This may be due to connmanctl trying to figure out what
> network is running on the port that is connected to the Mesa
> board.  There may be a way to tell connmanctl to not touch
> that port.
>
> Jon
>
>
> ___
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>


-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [Emc-users] PCIe vs Ethernet Mesa card?

[Ken Strauss]

A lengthy delay is definitely not my experience. I boot from a SSD and the
entire startup process is definitely takes less than a minute.
> -Original Message-
> From: John Dammeyer [mailto:jo...@autoartisans.com]
> Sent: Monday, July 06, 2020 4:52 PM
> To: 'Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)'
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] PCIe vs Ethernet Mesa card?
>
> > From: andy pugh [mailto:bodge...@gmail.com]
> > On Mon, 6 Jul 2020 at 21:22, Chris Albertson 
> wrote:
> > >
> > > Is there any advantage to using a bus connected Mesa card like the
6i25 vs
> > > using one of the Ethernet-connected cards such as 7i92M or 7i93
> >
> > PCI might be more reliable. Not so much during runs, but at startup.
> > It is quite easy to imagine something changing the network setup of
> > your machine, and finding that you just can't get it to run.
>
> No experience with the PCI cards but what I have noticed with my 7i92H is
> that after I boot and sign on into Linux it's important that I go and do
> something else for a few minutes.   Then come back and click on the icon
that
> runs the actual LinuxCNC Axis program that uses the HAL file for the
7i92H.
>
> Seems otherwise the Ethernet connection to the 7i92H can't be found for
the
> first few minutes.
>
> There may well be some parameter that can be set so the 7i92H Ethernet
> connection happens faster.
>
> John
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] PCIe vs Ethernet Mesa card?

[Jon Elson]

On 07/06/2020 05:47 PM, John Dammeyer wrote:

It's not a big deal.  Whacks me across the head if I rush starting AXIS.  
There's always something to do as the system is brought to life.  Like sweep up 
shavings or add oil to the spindle lube cups on the lathe.  Put tools away.  
Clean rust film that started showing up this year after 10 years of no rust.


Connmanctl is a really neat thing for portable computers.  
It scans the net traffic and figures out that "Oh, looks 
like he's at Ohare airport, I'll hook him up to the WiFi 
thare".  But, in a static environment, it sometimes is too 
smart for your totally "set it once, and forever" settings.


Jon


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Re: [Emc-users] PCIe vs Ethernet Mesa card?

[John Dammeyer]

It's not a big deal.  Whacks me across the head if I rush starting AXIS.  
There's always something to do as the system is brought to life.  Like sweep up 
shavings or add oil to the spindle lube cups on the lathe.  Put tools away.  
Clean rust film that started showing up this year after 10 years of no rust.

John


> -Original Message-
> From: Jon Elson [mailto:el...@pico-systems.com]
> Sent: July-06-20 3:17 PM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] PCIe vs Ethernet Mesa card?
> 
> On 07/06/2020 03:51 PM, John Dammeyer wrote:
> >> From: andy pugh [mailto:bodge...@gmail.com]
> >> On Mon, 6 Jul 2020 at 21:22, Chris Albertson  
> >> wrote:
> >>> Is there any advantage to using a bus connected Mesa card like the 6i25 vs
> >>> using one of the Ethernet-connected cards such as 7i92M or 7i93
> >> PCI might be more reliable. Not so much during runs, but at startup.
> >> It is quite easy to imagine something changing the network setup of
> >> your machine, and finding that you just can't get it to run.
> > No experience with the PCI cards but what I have noticed with my 7i92H is 
> > that after I boot and sign on into Linux it's important that
> I go and do something else for a few minutes.   Then come back and click on 
> the icon that runs the actual LinuxCNC Axis program that
> uses the HAL file for the 7i92H.
> >
> > Seems otherwise the Ethernet connection to the 7i92H can't be found for the 
> > first few minutes.
> >
> > There may well be some parameter that can be set so the 7i92H Ethernet 
> > connection happens faster.
> >
> >
> This may be due to connmanctl trying to figure out what
> network is running on the port that is connected to the Mesa
> board.  There may be a way to tell connmanctl to not touch
> that port.
> 
> Jon
> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] PCIe vs Ethernet Mesa card?

[Jon Elson]

On 07/06/2020 03:51 PM, John Dammeyer wrote:

From: andy pugh [mailto:bodge...@gmail.com]
On Mon, 6 Jul 2020 at 21:22, Chris Albertson  wrote:

Is there any advantage to using a bus connected Mesa card like the 6i25 vs
using one of the Ethernet-connected cards such as 7i92M or 7i93

PCI might be more reliable. Not so much during runs, but at startup.
It is quite easy to imagine something changing the network setup of
your machine, and finding that you just can't get it to run.

No experience with the PCI cards but what I have noticed with my 7i92H is that 
after I boot and sign on into Linux it's important that I go and do something 
else for a few minutes.   Then come back and click on the icon that runs the 
actual LinuxCNC Axis program that uses the HAL file for the 7i92H.

Seems otherwise the Ethernet connection to the 7i92H can't be found for the 
first few minutes.

There may well be some parameter that can be set so the 7i92H Ethernet 
connection happens faster.


This may be due to connmanctl trying to figure out what 
network is running on the port that is connected to the Mesa 
board.  There may be a way to tell connmanctl to not touch 
that port.


Jon


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Re: [Emc-users] PCIe vs Ethernet Mesa card?

[John Dammeyer]

> From: andy pugh [mailto:bodge...@gmail.com]
> On Mon, 6 Jul 2020 at 21:22, Chris Albertson  
> wrote:
> >
> > Is there any advantage to using a bus connected Mesa card like the 6i25 vs
> > using one of the Ethernet-connected cards such as 7i92M or 7i93
> 
> PCI might be more reliable. Not so much during runs, but at startup.
> It is quite easy to imagine something changing the network setup of
> your machine, and finding that you just can't get it to run.

No experience with the PCI cards but what I have noticed with my 7i92H is that 
after I boot and sign on into Linux it's important that I go and do something 
else for a few minutes.   Then come back and click on the icon that runs the 
actual LinuxCNC Axis program that uses the HAL file for the 7i92H.  

Seems otherwise the Ethernet connection to the 7i92H can't be found for the 
first few minutes.  

There may well be some parameter that can be set so the 7i92H Ethernet 
connection happens faster. 

John




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Re: [Emc-users] PCIe vs Ethernet Mesa card?

[andy pugh]

On Mon, 6 Jul 2020 at 21:22, Chris Albertson  wrote:
>
> Is there any advantage to using a bus connected Mesa card like the 6i25 vs
> using one of the Ethernet-connected cards such as 7i92M or 7i93

PCI might be more reliable. Not so much during runs, but at startup.
It is quite easy to imagine something changing the network setup of
your machine, and finding that you just can't get it to run.

Ethernet might have better noise resistance. I think it is recommended
for Plasma due to the integral isolation.

Ethernet can make for easier packaging, with a PC in one place and
controller in the other.

PCI is a bit "tighter", there is less inherent delay in the data path.
Also, PCI works with both preempt-rt and RTAI. Ethernet only works
with preempt-rt (at the moment) and not all hardware has adequate
latency with that.
But if you are using an ethernet Mesa card "adequate" latency is a
pretty low bar. Anything <200,000 is OK, and higher might be
tolerable.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] PCIe vs Ethernet Mesa card?

[Ken Strauss]

Older Tormach machines such as my PCNC770-3 shipped with either a 5i25 or
6i25. Newer machines (now with significantly faster rapids) use a 7i92. Note
that there appears to be no way to share a single Ethernet port on the host
computer with a 7i92 and normal network connectivity. I have it working here
by using two Ethernet cards -- one for a 7i92 and the other for Samba +
internet.

> -Original Message-
> From: Chris Albertson [mailto:albertson.ch...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Monday, July 06, 2020 4:20 PM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: [Emc-users] PCIe vs Ethernet Mesa card?
>
> Is there any advantage to using a bus connected Mesa card like the 6i25 vs
> using one of the Ethernet-connected cards such as 7i92M or 7i93
>
> It seems that Ethernet would allow me to control the CNC Mill and lathe
> from any computer even the ones in the office and also from a computer
that
> lacks a PCIe bus slot such as a Raspberry Pi or notebook PC
>
> But I ask because possibly there is some reason to stay with the
> bus-connected cards.
>
> That said, I am getting good enough performance from the parallel port.
>  "Good enough" defined as the motors and mechanical parts being the
> bottleneck.   But I want to install an encoder on the spindle and also
> experiment with 5 uM glass slide encoders on the machine.So I just
> might end up with 5 high-speed quadrature encoders (Spindel, x,y,z,a) and
> that is simply NOT going to work over a parallel port.
>
> BTW my "cheapest possible setup" Mini Mill is coming along.   I am in fact
> noting some flex in the plastic parts and have some ideas for an improved
> design. I think it is normal that designs "mature".  The Z and X-axis
> are solid but my dial indicator tells me I can do better on Y.  It seems
> that a complete CNC conversion can be done for under $500 with little to
no
> machine work required
>
> --
>
> Chris Albertson
> Redondo Beach, California
>
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[Emc-users] PCIe vs Ethernet Mesa card?

[Chris Albertson]

Is there any advantage to using a bus connected Mesa card like the 6i25 vs
using one of the Ethernet-connected cards such as 7i92M or 7i93

It seems that Ethernet would allow me to control the CNC Mill and lathe
from any computer even the ones in the office and also from a computer that
lacks a PCIe bus slot such as a Raspberry Pi or notebook PC

But I ask because possibly there is some reason to stay with the
bus-connected cards.

That said, I am getting good enough performance from the parallel port.
 "Good enough" defined as the motors and mechanical parts being the
bottleneck.   But I want to install an encoder on the spindle and also
experiment with 5 uM glass slide encoders on the machine.So I just
might end up with 5 high-speed quadrature encoders (Spindel, x,y,z,a) and
that is simply NOT going to work over a parallel port.

BTW my "cheapest possible setup" Mini Mill is coming along.   I am in fact
noting some flex in the plastic parts and have some ideas for an improved
design. I think it is normal that designs "mature".  The Z and X-axis
are solid but my dial indicator tells me I can do better on Y.  It seems
that a complete CNC conversion can be done for under $500 with little to no
machine work required

-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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