Re: [Emc-users] What current ITX board?

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 13 December 2012 20:08:38 Peter Blodow did opine:

> Gene, I had a thing like this a couple weeks ago with one of my office
> computers. To make a long story short, the power supply capacitor was
> preparing to blow its top which, apparently, caused ripple on the 5 V
> supply line which was litterally "counted" by some chip on the mobo. The
> breakdowns were able to be predicted on the second, I checked them with
> an excel sheet made from the breakdown times the error messages gave me.
> Replace the final capacitor by a heavy duty, high temperature, high
> current cap (or two in parallel) in the PS and you'll be out of trouble.
> 
> Peter
> 
I figure it will probably get to that, likely in the heat of next summer. 
:(

The old "if it quacks like a duck" etc, will be true for many decades after 
I've sign out.

Cheers, Gene
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Re: [Emc-users] What current ITX board?

[Peter Blodow]

Gene, I had a thing like this a couple weeks ago with one of my office 
computers. To make a long story short, the power supply capacitor was 
preparing to blow its top which, apparently, caused ripple on the 5 V 
supply line which was litterally "counted" by some chip on the mobo. The 
breakdowns were able to be predicted on the second, I checked them with 
an excel sheet made from the breakdown times the error messages gave me. 
Replace the final capacitor by a heavy duty, high temperature, high 
current cap (or two in parallel) in the PS and you'll be out of trouble.

Peter


> Now that I wouldn't doubt for more than 50 milliseconds.  I bought these 
> two about 6 months apart, and brought both of them up to the latest bios 
> (that is important), but the newest one, running my lathe, does good to get 
> a 2 week uptime, it can go away, and has many times, doing a self reboot.  
> The screen goes dark without warning & the next thing I see 7 or 8 secs 
> later in the bios signing on.  I can't remember the last time I rebooted 
> the earlier one running the mill.
>  
>   


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Re: [Emc-users] What current ITX board?

[Dave]

The firmware for the D525MW has been revised a few times as I recall.   
I had an issue with one board (I thought) and I reflashed the bios with 
the latest firmware, but the problem was elsewhere.

>>I can watch HD video on my cell phone but not on these PC's.

Good thing we are using them to control a CNC machine.

That's ok as my $100 Blueray player has no idea what to do with Gcode.  ;-)

Dave



On 12/12/2012 5:49 PM, Sven Wesley wrote:
> 2012/12/12 Gene Heskett
>
>>
>> I will say it.  If its a 64 bit install, then it is not the rtai patched
>> kernel, and the results predictably will be poorer.
>>
>>
>>  
> Read my post again. There are two different PC's involved in my tests. One
> is now installed with 64 bit Ubuntu - not LinuxCNC. The other one is
> installed with LinuxCNC.
>
>
>
>
>> Neither of my machines has ever exceeded 8u-s, with only one stick of
>> memory in them, 2Gb IOW.  Latencyplot has been running on the lathes
>> machine for about an hour, base-thread peak is 5 u-s, servo-thread peak is
>> 5 u-s.
>>
>>  
> Well, good for you and I would be glad to share that experience. But the
> fact remains, I have two D5252MW's and none of them have been close to your
> levels. Did you push the hardware? Did you start a download, a browser,
> glxgears? if I let it idle of course it will look good. That is not
> realistic though and as I have stated earlier it's enough to start a
> Firefox to totally destroy the figures. Looks a lot better now when both
> memory banks are used, still double up from your latency.
> I wonder if this board has changed too much over releases, maybe we don't
> have the same hardware if we dig into the board itself.
>
>
>
>>  
>>> I don't think you changed the graphics driver just by lowering the
>>> latency.  I have not done much Linux stuff in years, but I'm wondering
>>> what X graphics driver you are using? Can you force the graphics driver
>>> into some VGA totally software render mode?
>>>
>>> Also remote into it, and run it as a headless station. I should do this
>>> and see how it performs. Maybe next time I have a few hours around the
>>> house (hah! not in the next few weeks…) I'll run that test.
>>>
>>>
 One thing though, I filled one of the boards with 8 GB RAM (2x4). That
 board is running 64 bit Ubuntu in the office and it happily reported 8
 GB even though the hardware spec says max 4 GB. It seems that 4 GB is
 a soft limit.
  
>>> Running a 32 bit kernel? I don't think you'll be able to address over 4g
>>> via sw.  Maybe they expect people to run windows, not Linux!
>>>
>>> Interesting that you can put the RAM in, as like you, I had assumed that
>>> it was not just a SW limit.
>>>
>>> Thanks;
>>>
>>> John A. Stewart.
>>>
>> A 64 bit linux that has a problem with even 64Gb of ram should have a bug
>> report filed.  32 bit however has to jump through some time consuming
>> hoops.
>>
>>
>>  
> I wrote soft limit. Not software limit. The board specification says max 4
> GB RAM and it can be rewritten into "is only guaranteed to work with 4 GB,
> but can handle more on your own risk". The board itself is a 64 bit
> architecture. The software limit theoretically for a 64 bit system is 2^64
> bytes (16 exabytes). I have a bunch of blade servers at the office with
> 300+ GB RAM.
> I did the remote test earlier (also reported to this list) and the figures
> are better. Have in mind that half of this list will stupidify you if you
> suggest running two PC's at the same time.
> The graphics driver of this board share memory with the OS, when going down
> in resolution it will affect the memory usage. The desktop also becomes a
> bit more responsive but looks like crap in the lower res when the same
> monitor is used. Nevertheless it was no real performance impact. I can
> watch HD video on my cell phone but not on these PC's. Probably they will
> be used as automation controllers, end up in a CNC cabinet will not happen.
>
> Regards,
> Sven
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Re: [Emc-users] What current ITX board?

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 12 December 2012 18:22:00 Sven Wesley did opine:

> 2012/12/12 Gene Heskett 
> 
> > I will say it.  If its a 64 bit install, then it is not the rtai
> > patched kernel, and the results predictably will be poorer.
> 
> Read my post again. There are two different PC's involved in my tests.
> One is now installed with 64 bit Ubuntu - not LinuxCNC. The other one
> is installed with LinuxCNC.
> 
Ahh,  sorry, I missed that detail.  My apologies.

> > Neither of my machines has ever exceeded 8u-s, with only one stick of
> > memory in them, 2Gb IOW.  Latencyplot has been running on the lathes
> > machine for about an hour, base-thread peak is 5 u-s, servo-thread
> > peak is 5 u-s.
> 
> Well, good for you and I would be glad to share that experience. But the
> fact remains, I have two D5252MW's and none of them have been close to
> your levels. Did you push the hardware? Did you start a download, a
> browser, glxgears? if I let it idle of course it will look good. That
> is not realistic though and as I have stated earlier it's enough to
> start a Firefox to totally destroy the figures. Looks a lot better now
> when both memory banks are used, still double up from your latency.
> I wonder if this board has changed too much over releases, maybe we
> don't have the same hardware if we dig into the board itself.

Now that I wouldn't doubt for more than 50 milliseconds.  I bought these 
two about 6 months apart, and brought both of them up to the latest bios 
(that is important), but the newest one, running my lathe, does good to get 
a 2 week uptime, it can go away, and has many times, doing a self reboot.  
The screen goes dark without warning & the next thing I see 7 or 8 secs 
later in the bios signing on.  I can't remember the last time I rebooted 
the earlier one running the mill.
 
> > > I don't think you changed the graphics driver just by lowering the
> > > latency.  I have not done much Linux stuff in years, but I'm
> > > wondering what X graphics driver you are using? Can you force the
> > > graphics driver into some VGA totally software render mode?
> > > 

The linux/intel driver that Ubuntu auto-installs, and that part seems to be 
bullet-proof, running in 1680x1050 32 bit mode.  On both machines.

> > > Also remote into it, and run it as a headless station. I should do
> > > this and see how it performs. Maybe next time I  > > 
> > > > One thing though, I filled one of the boards with 8 GB RAM (2x4).
> > > > That board is running 64 bit Ubuntu in the office and it happily
> > > > reported 8 GB even though the hardware spec says max 4 GB. It
> > > > seems that 4 GB is a soft limit.
> > > 
> > > Running a 32 bit kernel? I don't think you'll be able to address
> > > over 4g via sw.  Maybe they expect people to run windows, not
> > > Linux!
> > > 
> > > Interesting that you can put the RAM in, as like you, I had assumed
> > > that it was not just a SW limit.

I'd put another 2Gb stick in each of mine, just on general principles, but 
I'd have to net order it, staples sent them out for 5 micron gold flash & 
doubled the newegg price.

> > > Thanks;
> > > 
> > > John A. Stewart.
> > 
> > A 64 bit linux that has a problem with even 64Gb of ram should have a
> > bug report filed.  32 bit however has to jump through some time
> > consuming hoops.
> 
> I wrote soft limit. Not software limit. The board specification says max
> 4 GB RAM and it can be rewritten into "is only guaranteed to work with
> 4 GB, but can handle more on your own risk". The board itself is a 64
> bit architecture. The software limit theoretically for a 64 bit system
> is 2^64 bytes (16 exabytes). I have a bunch of blade servers at the
> office with 300+ GB RAM.
> I did the remote test earlier (also reported to this list) and the
> figures are better. Have in mind that half of this list will stupidify
> you if you suggest running two PC's at the same time.
> The graphics driver of this board share memory with the OS, when going
> down in resolution it will affect the memory usage. The desktop also
> becomes a bit more responsive but looks like crap in the lower res when
> the same monitor is used. Nevertheless it was no real performance
> impact. I can watch HD video on my cell phone but not on these PC's.
> Probably they will be used as automation controllers, end up in a CNC
> cabinet will not happen.
> 
> Regards,
> Sven
> 
> -- LogMeIn Rescue: Anywhere, Anytime Remote support for IT. Free
> Trial Remotely access PCs and mobile devices and provide instant
> support Improve your efficiency, and focus on delivering more value-add
> services Discover what IT Professionals Know. Rescue delivers
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Cheers, Gene
-- 
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Re: [Emc-users] What current ITX board?

[Sven Wesley]

2012/12/12 Gene Heskett 
>
>
> I will say it.  If its a 64 bit install, then it is not the rtai patched
> kernel, and the results predictably will be poorer.
>
>
Read my post again. There are two different PC's involved in my tests. One
is now installed with 64 bit Ubuntu - not LinuxCNC. The other one is
installed with LinuxCNC.



> Neither of my machines has ever exceeded 8u-s, with only one stick of
> memory in them, 2Gb IOW.  Latencyplot has been running on the lathes
> machine for about an hour, base-thread peak is 5 u-s, servo-thread peak is
> 5 u-s.
>

Well, good for you and I would be glad to share that experience. But the
fact remains, I have two D5252MW's and none of them have been close to your
levels. Did you push the hardware? Did you start a download, a browser,
glxgears? if I let it idle of course it will look good. That is not
realistic though and as I have stated earlier it's enough to start a
Firefox to totally destroy the figures. Looks a lot better now when both
memory banks are used, still double up from your latency.
I wonder if this board has changed too much over releases, maybe we don't
have the same hardware if we dig into the board itself.


>
> > I don't think you changed the graphics driver just by lowering the
> > latency.  I have not done much Linux stuff in years, but I'm wondering
> > what X graphics driver you are using? Can you force the graphics driver
> > into some VGA totally software render mode?
> >
> > Also remote into it, and run it as a headless station. I should do this
> > and see how it performs. Maybe next time I have a few hours around the
> > house (hah! not in the next few weeks…) I'll run that test.
> >
> > > One thing though, I filled one of the boards with 8 GB RAM (2x4). That
> > > board is running 64 bit Ubuntu in the office and it happily reported 8
> > > GB even though the hardware spec says max 4 GB. It seems that 4 GB is
> > > a soft limit.
> >
> > Running a 32 bit kernel? I don't think you'll be able to address over 4g
> > via sw.  Maybe they expect people to run windows, not Linux!
> >
> > Interesting that you can put the RAM in, as like you, I had assumed that
> > it was not just a SW limit.
> >
> > Thanks;
> >
> > John A. Stewart.
>
> A 64 bit linux that has a problem with even 64Gb of ram should have a bug
> report filed.  32 bit however has to jump through some time consuming
> hoops.
>
>
I wrote soft limit. Not software limit. The board specification says max 4
GB RAM and it can be rewritten into "is only guaranteed to work with 4 GB,
but can handle more on your own risk". The board itself is a 64 bit
architecture. The software limit theoretically for a 64 bit system is 2^64
bytes (16 exabytes). I have a bunch of blade servers at the office with
300+ GB RAM.
I did the remote test earlier (also reported to this list) and the figures
are better. Have in mind that half of this list will stupidify you if you
suggest running two PC's at the same time.
The graphics driver of this board share memory with the OS, when going down
in resolution it will affect the memory usage. The desktop also becomes a
bit more responsive but looks like crap in the lower res when the same
monitor is used. Nevertheless it was no real performance impact. I can
watch HD video on my cell phone but not on these PC's. Probably they will
be used as automation controllers, end up in a CNC cabinet will not happen.

Regards,
Sven
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Re: [Emc-users] What current ITX board?

[Dave]

I'm not going to get into the Intel D525MW debate but I will run some 
tests on my system soon and report the results.
The D525MW has been a great board for me.  Zero failures and they just 
run and run.

Reviewing Neweggs stock of ITX boards it is obvious that the Intel D525 
chipset based ITX boards are going away.  I'm surprised they are still 
available.

Has anyone tried an AMD Hudson E-350 based ITX board or similar with 
LinuxCNC?

Unless I can find a good reliable alternative to the D525MW motherboard 
I will probably buy a batch of 10 or so to cover some upcoming projects 
and provide spare parts but those will only last so long.

Dave

On 12/12/2012 10:19 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Wednesday 12 December 2012 10:06:41 John Stewart did opine:
>
>
>> Hi Sven;
>>
>> I'm not saying you are wrong;  and I thank you for posting the results
>> of your testing.
>>  
> I will say it.  If its a 64 bit install, then it is not the rtai patched
> kernel, and the results predictably will be poorer.
>
>
>>> And today I did.
>>> Running 2x2 GB RAM to maximize the I/O. Latency test, one glxgears and
>>> a Firefox to linuxcnc resulted in 15 849. Turned the graphics
>>> resolution down to 1024x768 and I was able to keep it a bit lower,
>>> But only a bit as I passed 14 000 for the same test. I still don't
>>> believe in you guys saying that a D525MW is able to stay below 10 000
>>> in a latency test.
>>>
> Neither of my machines has ever exceeded 8u-s, with only one stick of
> memory in them, 2Gb IOW.  Latencyplot has been running on the lathes
> machine for about an hour, base-thread peak is 5 u-s, servo-thread peak is
> 5 u-s.
>
>
>> I don't think you changed the graphics driver just by lowering the
>> latency.  I have not done much Linux stuff in years, but I'm wondering
>> what X graphics driver you are using? Can you force the graphics driver
>> into some VGA totally software render mode?
>>
>> Also remote into it, and run it as a headless station. I should do this
>> and see how it performs. Maybe next time I have a few hours around the
>> house (hah! not in the next few weeks…) I'll run that test.
>>
>>  
>>> One thing though, I filled one of the boards with 8 GB RAM (2x4). That
>>> board is running 64 bit Ubuntu in the office and it happily reported 8
>>> GB even though the hardware spec says max 4 GB. It seems that 4 GB is
>>> a soft limit.
>>>
>> Running a 32 bit kernel? I don't think you'll be able to address over 4g
>> via sw.  Maybe they expect people to run windows, not Linux!
>>
>> Interesting that you can put the RAM in, as like you, I had assumed that
>> it was not just a SW limit.
>>
>> Thanks;
>>
>> John A. Stewart.
>>  
> A 64 bit linux that has a problem with even 64Gb of ram should have a bug
> report filed.  32 bit however has to jump through some time consuming
> hoops.
>
>
>> 
>> -- LogMeIn Rescue: Anywhere, Anytime Remote support for IT. Free
>> Trial Remotely access PCs and mobile devices and provide instant
>> support Improve your efficiency, and focus on delivering more value-add
>> services Discover what IT Professionals Know. Rescue delivers
>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/logmein_12329d2d
>> ___
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>> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>>  
>
> Cheers, Gene
>


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Re: [Emc-users] What current ITX board?

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 12 December 2012 10:06:41 John Stewart did opine:

> Hi Sven;
> 
> I'm not saying you are wrong;  and I thank you for posting the results
> of your testing.

I will say it.  If its a 64 bit install, then it is not the rtai patched 
kernel, and the results predictably will be poorer.
 
> > And today I did.
> > Running 2x2 GB RAM to maximize the I/O. Latency test, one glxgears and
> > a Firefox to linuxcnc resulted in 15 849. Turned the graphics
> > resolution down to 1024x768 and I was able to keep it a bit lower,
> > But only a bit as I passed 14 000 for the same test. I still don't
> > believe in you guys saying that a D525MW is able to stay below 10 000
> > in a latency test.

Neither of my machines has ever exceeded 8u-s, with only one stick of 
memory in them, 2Gb IOW.  Latencyplot has been running on the lathes 
machine for about an hour, base-thread peak is 5 u-s, servo-thread peak is 
5 u-s.
 
> I don't think you changed the graphics driver just by lowering the
> latency.  I have not done much Linux stuff in years, but I'm wondering
> what X graphics driver you are using? Can you force the graphics driver
> into some VGA totally software render mode?
> 
> Also remote into it, and run it as a headless station. I should do this
> and see how it performs. Maybe next time I have a few hours around the
> house (hah! not in the next few weeks…) I'll run that test.
> 
> > One thing though, I filled one of the boards with 8 GB RAM (2x4). That
> > board is running 64 bit Ubuntu in the office and it happily reported 8
> > GB even though the hardware spec says max 4 GB. It seems that 4 GB is
> > a soft limit.
> 
> Running a 32 bit kernel? I don't think you'll be able to address over 4g
> via sw.  Maybe they expect people to run windows, not Linux!
> 
> Interesting that you can put the RAM in, as like you, I had assumed that
> it was not just a SW limit.
> 
> Thanks;
> 
> John A. Stewart.

A 64 bit linux that has a problem with even 64Gb of ram should have a bug 
report filed.  32 bit however has to jump through some time consuming 
hoops.

> 
> -- LogMeIn Rescue: Anywhere, Anytime Remote support for IT. Free
> Trial Remotely access PCs and mobile devices and provide instant
> support Improve your efficiency, and focus on delivering more value-add
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Cheers, Gene
-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page:  is up!
If society fits you comfortably enough, you call it freedom.
-- Robert Frost
I was taught to respect my elders, but its getting 
harder and harder to find any...

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Re: [Emc-users] What current ITX board?

[Eric Keller]

On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 9:22 AM, John Stewart  wrote:

>
> Running a 32 bit kernel? I don't think you'll be able to address over 4g
> via sw.  Maybe they expect people to run windows, not Linux!
>
there is a bigmem kernel option that will address over 4gb, but I haven't
really looked into it much.  I was thinking about it back when I was having
stability issues with my desktop; upgrading to 12.04 fixed everything so I
lost interest.  I have seen people recommend 32bit with bigmem -- maybe at
the Ubuntu forums?
Eric
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Re: [Emc-users] What current ITX board?

[John Stewart]

Ok, ok!!! got a phone call half way through writing this email, and I made a 
mistake…

On 2012-12-12, at 9:22 AM, John Stewart wrote:
> 
> I don't think you changed the graphics driver just by lowering the latency.  

I meant to say "lowering the resolution", of course.

John A. Stewart






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Re: [Emc-users] What current ITX board?

[John Stewart]

Hi Sven;

I'm not saying you are wrong;  and I thank you for posting the results of your 
testing.

> 
> And today I did.
> Running 2x2 GB RAM to maximize the I/O. Latency test, one glxgears and a
> Firefox to linuxcnc resulted in 15 849. Turned the graphics resolution down
> to 1024x768 and I was able to keep it a bit lower, But only a bit as I
> passed 14 000 for the same test. I still don't believe in you guys saying
> that a D525MW is able to stay below 10 000 in a latency test.

I don't think you changed the graphics driver just by lowering the latency.  I 
have not done much Linux stuff in years, but I'm wondering what X graphics 
driver you are using? Can you force the graphics driver into some VGA totally 
software render mode? 

Also remote into it, and run it as a headless station. I should do this and see 
how it performs. Maybe next time I have a few hours around the house (hah! not 
in the next few weeks…) I'll run that test.

> One thing though, I filled one of the boards with 8 GB RAM (2x4). That
> board is running 64 bit Ubuntu in the office and it happily reported 8 GB
> even though the hardware spec says max 4 GB. It seems that 4 GB is a soft
> limit.


Running a 32 bit kernel? I don't think you'll be able to address over 4g via 
sw.  Maybe they expect people to run windows, not Linux!

Interesting that you can put the RAM in, as like you, I had assumed that it was 
not just a SW limit.

Thanks;

John A. Stewart.
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Re: [Emc-users] What current ITX board?

[Sven Wesley]

2012/12/4 Sven Wesley 

>
>
>
> 2012/12/3 Gene Heskett 
>>
>>
>> Sven, 2 things you MUST do.
>>
>> 1. Turn off the hyper-threading in the bios.
>> 2. Add isolcpus=1 to the end of the grub kernel line.
>>
>>
> Oh yes I did that already. Latest BIOS firmware and running fastest rated
> SSD disc too.
> CNCLinux no tweaks installation. Start Latency test, open Firefox and 50
> microseconds reached.
>
> Only thing I haven't done yet is to test another RAM.
>
> /S
>

And today I did.
Running 2x2 GB RAM to maximize the I/O. Latency test, one glxgears and a
Firefox to linuxcnc resulted in 15 849. Turned the graphics resolution down
to 1024x768 and I was able to keep it a bit lower, But only a bit as I
passed 14 000 for the same test. I still don't believe in you guys saying
that a D525MW is able to stay below 10 000 in a latency test.

One thing though, I filled one of the boards with 8 GB RAM (2x4). That
board is running 64 bit Ubuntu in the office and it happily reported 8 GB
even though the hardware spec says max 4 GB. It seems that 4 GB is a soft
limit.

/S
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Re: [Emc-users] What current ITX board?

[Sven Wesley]

2012/12/3 Gene Heskett 
>
>
> Sven, 2 things you MUST do.
>
> 1. Turn off the hyper-threading in the bios.
> 2. Add isolcpus=1 to the end of the grub kernel line.
>
>
Oh yes I did that already. Latest BIOS firmware and running fastest rated
SSD disc too.
CNCLinux no tweaks installation. Start Latency test, open Firefox and 50
microseconds reached.

Only thing I haven't done yet is to test another RAM.

/S
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Re: [Emc-users] What current ITX board?

[Dave]

It is as good as the Intel Atom 330 boards if setup properly.

But you have to do what Gene mentioned.

The same board works well with Mach3.

Dave

On 12/3/2012 3:36 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Monday 03 December 2012 15:28:25 Sven Wesley did opine:
>
>
>> 2012/12/3 Dave
>>
>>  
>>> D525MW
>>>
>> I assume that you guys using the D525MW board also is using a Mesa
>> board. I have two D525MW's and if you ask me their performance is
>> really poor. I don't have to push it at all to reach latency values way
>> above 50 000 ns. With a Mesa board yes, without no.
>>
>> /S
>>  
> Sven, 2 things you MUST do.
>
> 1. Turn off the hyper-threading in the bios.
> 2. Add isolcpus=1 to the end of the grub kernel line.
>
> With those 2 things, I flat cannot get a jitter of over 7.5 microseconds,
> and I can run a 23 microsecond BASE_THREAD for hours before getting that
> little advisor that said the latency was exceeded.  And I have yet to have
> a motor stall that I didn't first tell it to turn 800 or more rpms.  At a
> 25 microsecond BASE_THREAD, I have never seen a latency notice.
>
> Slow?  Only if you are microstepping at divisors above /8.
>
> Cheers, Gene
>


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Re: [Emc-users] What current ITX board?

[Lester Caine]

Dave wrote:
>> Just had another batch in and shipping them Dual
>> >boot LinuxCNC and XP although I may well be using USBCNC rather than Mach3
>> >
>> >Slight aside ... anybody looked at USBCNC as a controller with LinuxCNC?
>> >
> What... no Mach3!
>
> Why aren't you using the latest Mach4 release?;-)

Still using an older stable Mach3 on most customer production sites ... if it 
works don't break it and since there are no network connections - no need to 
worry about updates getting in the way :)

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Re: [Emc-users] What current ITX board?

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 03 December 2012 15:28:25 Sven Wesley did opine:

> 2012/12/3 Dave 
> 
> > D525MW
> 
> I assume that you guys using the D525MW board also is using a Mesa
> board. I have two D525MW's and if you ask me their performance is
> really poor. I don't have to push it at all to reach latency values way
> above 50 000 ns. With a Mesa board yes, without no.
> 
> /S

Sven, 2 things you MUST do.

1. Turn off the hyper-threading in the bios.
2. Add isolcpus=1 to the end of the grub kernel line.

With those 2 things, I flat cannot get a jitter of over 7.5 microseconds, 
and I can run a 23 microsecond BASE_THREAD for hours before getting that 
little advisor that said the latency was exceeded.  And I have yet to have 
a motor stall that I didn't first tell it to turn 800 or more rpms.  At a 
25 microsecond BASE_THREAD, I have never seen a latency notice.

Slow?  Only if you are microstepping at divisors above /8.

Cheers, Gene
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Re: [Emc-users] What current ITX board?

[Sven Wesley]

2012/12/3 Dave 

> D525MW


I assume that you guys using the D525MW board also is using a Mesa board. I
have two D525MW's and if you ask me their performance is really poor. I
don't have to push it at all to reach latency values way above 50 000 ns.
With a Mesa board yes, without no.

/S
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Re: [Emc-users] What current ITX board?

[Peter C. Wallace]

On Mon, 3 Dec 2012, andy pugh wrote:

> Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2012 17:15:44 +
> From: andy pugh 
> Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
> 
> To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] What current ITX board?
> 
> On 2 December 2012 16:46, Lester Caine  wrote:
>
>> Slight aside ... anybody looked at USBCNC as a controller with LinuxCNC?
>
> I can't see a clean break line for handoff between LinuxCNC and the USBCNC 
> CPU.
> (Though as the USBCNC device runs RS274/NGC I suspect that large
> chunks of LinuxCNC are running on the external CPU, so it might be
> possible)
>

I suspect that a better path is to separate the real time portion of LinuxCNC
(HAL, motion) from the front end (interpreter, GUI) with a clean network 
compatible, host agnostic, message passing interface. I _think_ this is what 
Michael Haberler is suggesting for LinuxCNC 3


> -- 
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> If you can't fix it, you don't own it.
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>
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Mesa Electronics

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Re: [Emc-users] What current ITX board?

[andy pugh]

On 2 December 2012 16:46, Lester Caine  wrote:

> Slight aside ... anybody looked at USBCNC as a controller with LinuxCNC?

I can't see a clean break line for handoff between LinuxCNC and the USBCNC CPU.
(Though as the USBCNC device runs RS274/NGC I suspect that large
chunks of LinuxCNC are running on the external CPU, so it might be
possible)

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Re: [Emc-users] What current ITX board?

[Dave]

On 12/2/2012 11:46 AM, Lester Caine wrote:
> Just had another batch in and shipping them Dual
> boot LinuxCNC and XP although I may well be using USBCNC rather than Mach3
>
> Slight aside ... anybody looked at USBCNC as a controller with LinuxCNC?
>

What... no Mach3!

Why aren't you using the latest Mach4 release?  ;-)

Dave



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Re: [Emc-users] What current ITX board?

[Dave]

The D525MW has been obsoleted by Intel.  And that was a few months ago.  
I am surprised that Newegg can still get those boards as usually they 
run out quicker than this.

I wonder if Intel isn't keeping the line running for a while longer 
seeing the problems that the Cedarville line has with Linux.

There is a Cedarville graphics solution for Arch Linux and perhaps Mint 
I believe.  But I have not tried those.

The D525MW is a very nice board.  I have purchased many of them with 
zero problems.

Dave



On 12/2/2012 8:00 AM, Pete Matos wrote:
> Anders,
>  While I cannot comment on how it works I just recently bought  a brand
> new Intel Atom motherboard from Newegg.com on the recommendation of two
> other users who have functioning machines that work well with them. I have
> yet to install and test it out as I JUST received my ram order yesterday.
> However my two friends and several other folks apparently have been using
> this board with good results. It apparently tests well in the latency area
> and is pretty good for a LinuxCNC conversion. It does have only one PCI
> slot but it has a parallel, and serial as well as several USB ports on it.
> Here is a linkpeace
>
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813121442
>
> Hope this helps and good luck man. Peace
>
> Pete
>
>
>
> On Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 7:26 AM, Anders Wallin
> wrote:
>
>
>> Hi all,
>> I'm looking for an ITX-sized motherboard that will work well with linuxcnc.
>>
>> I now have an Atom DN2800MT which has a lot of positives:
>> - powered from a single DC-jack
>> - passive cooling (just a slow case-fan is enough I assume)
>> - HDMI output
>>
>> However there seems to be one *big* minus which is the CedarView integrated
>> graphics chip. First they are only available on recent Ubuntu distributions
>> and second only on the 32-bit versions (not 64-bit). Thirdly I have now
>> tried a fresh install of 12.04LTS (which works, but the graphics are slow
>> and the resolution wrong with the generic driver) on this board and the
>> cedarview graphics driver install always fails rendering the machine
>> unusable (garbled screen at bootup).
>>
>> The board has a single PCIE slot which I don't want to use for a graphics
>> card since I want to use it for a Mesa FPGA-card.
>>
>> Any ideas or suggestions?
>>
>> AW
>>
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Re: [Emc-users] What current ITX board?

[Kent A. Reed]

On 12/2/2012 2:19 PM, Anders Wallin wrote:
>> Thanks for that. I haven't been paying attention and wasn't away they
>> had any big boards running off a 12VDC supply. Doing a bit of
>> web-crawling just now I came up with the Intel DZ77GA-70K. Is this what
>> you had in mind? It looks like there's a lot to like about this board. I
>> just wish it were half the price but perhaps there are more frugal
>> choices out there.
>>
> The one I was looking at (because the local shop has it in stock) was Intel
> DH61AG
> http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/motherboards/desktop-motherboards/desktop-board-dh61ag.html
>
> using x86 hardware should be the safest bet, although separately buying the
> motherboard, RAM, CPU, an SSD disk does add up (compared to Raspberry Pi or
> BeagleBoard). But I think the ITX-sized x86 solution is realistic and
> doable NOW, while stable real-time + linuxcnc for the smaller and cheaper
> SoC is still in the future.
>
> Anders
>

Sorry I went off on a big-board tangent; I saw "ITX" and thought "ATX". 
This mini-ITX DH61AG board likes much like an unbundled Atom board 
would. It meets my "half the price" benchmark!

I admit over the years I've bought several all-in-one Atom- or Via-based 
motherboards (the latter not for LinuxCNC) for their sheer convenience. 
Despite that, I prefer picking mixing and matching the CPU and 
motherboard because of the increased flexibility. I can swap out CPUs as 
my hacker interests change.

I just asked an Intel site for a list of compatible processors for the 
DBH61AG board. It looks like with a third-generation i3 CPU you can get 
into the mid-30w TDP range 
(http://processormatch.intel.com/CompDB/SearchResult.aspx?BoardName=dh61ag). 
I seem to recall that Ubuntu 12.04LTS, and perhaps even 10.10, has 
suitable graphics drivers.

And never feel like apologizing for an x86 solution. It is still the 
sweet spot for LinuxCNC.

Regards,
Kent


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Re: [Emc-users] What current ITX board?

[Anders Wallin]

> Thanks for that. I haven't been paying attention and wasn't away they
> had any big boards running off a 12VDC supply. Doing a bit of
> web-crawling just now I came up with the Intel DZ77GA-70K. Is this what
> you had in mind? It looks like there's a lot to like about this board. I
> just wish it were half the price but perhaps there are more frugal
> choices out there.
>

The one I was looking at (because the local shop has it in stock) was Intel
DH61AG
http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/motherboards/desktop-motherboards/desktop-board-dh61ag.html

using x86 hardware should be the safest bet, although separately buying the
motherboard, RAM, CPU, an SSD disk does add up (compared to Raspberry Pi or
BeagleBoard). But I think the ITX-sized x86 solution is realistic and
doable NOW, while stable real-time + linuxcnc for the smaller and cheaper
SoC is still in the future.

Anders
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Re: [Emc-users] What current ITX board?

[Kent A. Reed]

On 12/2/2012 1:38 PM, Anders Wallin wrote:

<...>
> They seem to have ITX-sized boards with LGA1155, using the same DC-input
> jack. With an i3 processor that should run quite cool also. I think that is
> what I will try next.

Thanks for that. I haven't been paying attention and wasn't away they 
had any big boards running off a 12VDC supply. Doing a bit of 
web-crawling just now I came up with the Intel DZ77GA-70K. Is this what 
you had in mind? It looks like there's a lot to like about this board. I 
just wish it were half the price but perhaps there are more frugal 
choices out there.

Regards,
Kent




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Re: [Emc-users] What current ITX board?

[Anders Wallin]

> >> DN2800MT will install XP, Probably Vista, W7 and Linux with graphics
> switched
> >> off. Enabling graphics in Linux seems to be hit and miss but basically
> there are
> >> no drivers for the Intel GMA 3600 graphics for Linux or XP but XP will
> run.
>
> to which Andy responded
>
> > I don't understand the problem. I just installed the LinuxCNC 2.5
> > LiveCD, and it works as expected.
> >
> > What do you mean by "enabling graphics"?
> >
> > I have only used it on the VGA connector, (plugged into my TV,
> > actually) but I get the normal Axis interface, and can run glxgears,
> > and mouse/keyboard response is entirely normal.
>
> I'm curious about the difference between Andy's remark "entirely normal"
> and your remark "slow and the resolution wrong with the generic driver".
> Is it related to VGA vs HDMI or perhaps to Andy apparently running
> Ubuntu 10.04LTS ("LinuxCNC 2.5 LiveCD") and you running 12.04LTS?
>

With a 24" screen connected through HDMI the default 12.04LTS install uses
a driver where the mouse cursor is flickering and graphics is obviously
slow (e.g. just dragging around windows, browsers, etc the screen update
while dragging is sluggish). It might be just barely usable, but it's not
very nice.
Googling for other linux experiences with the DN2800MT seems to turn up a
lot of problems and frustration - so it's probably best to avoid boards
with the cedarview graphics.


> Also, I have yet to run a program that obviously runs better in 64-bit
> versus 32-bit Linux. Is 64-bit really a criterion for you?
>

Not really. I have been using 64-bit installs on laptop/desktop for general
work for many years now I think. My desktop does have 16GB of RAM and the
laptop 4 or 8 GB. For linuxcnc use 32-bit is probably fine.


> Aside: Intel has preparing to launch Valley View in 2013. From
> Phoronix.com, "Valley View will see full Linux support and is looking to
> be fantastic: an Atom SoC with Ivy Bridge graphics." The winds of change
> keep on blowing.
>

They seem to have ITX-sized boards with LGA1155, using the same DC-input
jack. With an i3 processor that should run quite cool also. I think that is
what I will try next.


AW
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Re: [Emc-users] What current ITX board?

[Lester Caine]

Kent A. Reed wrote:
> Hi, Anders.
>
> Last July, Lester was remarking on the DN2800MT graphics problem
>
>>> >>DN2800MT will install XP, Probably Vista, W7 and Linux with graphics 
>>> >>switched
>>> >>off. Enabling graphics in Linux seems to be hit and miss but basically 
>>> >>there are
>>> >>no drivers for the Intel GMA 3600 graphics for Linux or XP but XP will 
>>> >>run.
> to which Andy responded
>
>> >I don't understand the problem. I just installed the LinuxCNC 2.5
>> >LiveCD, and it works as expected.
>> >
>> >What do you mean by "enabling graphics"?
>> >
>> >I have only used it on the VGA connector, (plugged into my TV,
>> >actually) but I get the normal Axis interface, and can run glxgears,
>> >and mouse/keyboard response is entirely normal.
> I'm curious about the difference between Andy's remark "entirely normal"
> and your remark "slow and the resolution wrong with the generic driver".
> Is it related to VGA vs HDMI or perhaps to Andy apparently running
> Ubuntu 10.04LTS ("LinuxCNC 2.5 LiveCD") and you running 12.04LTS?

I did establish that the problem was mainly related to USING the HDMI socket 
with a high res monitor. Drop back to a nice 1024x768 VGA monitor and the 
LiveCD 
does load fine. But I relegated the DN2800 board to a job that needed W7 anyway 
simply because I could not rely on it. The XP drivers still are not available, 
but as long as you use a low resolution monitor then the generic drivers are 
fine.

The PV530A-ITX has proven reliable and paired with the Dual PCI case gives a 
nice package at the moment. Just had another batch in and shipping them Dual 
boot LinuxCNC and XP although I may well be using USBCNC rather than Mach3

Slight aside ... anybody looked at USBCNC as a controller with LinuxCNC?

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Re: [Emc-users] What current ITX board?

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 02 December 2012 10:53:44 Todd Zuercher did opine:

> Since LinuxCNC doesn't really support 64bit that is kind of a moot
> point.  Most CNC machine applications don't need hi-res graphics, so
> most users are fine with the default generic vesa driver graphics, at
> least that is all I'm using on mine.  All this was fine for me since
> the only thing the computer is used for is to run the machine.  If I
> need to do computer work, like cad cam or anything else, I use my
> office computer where I can sit down in quiet.
> 
One of the advantages of the D525MW board is its gfx.  The one on the lathe 
is feeding a Samsung 22" 1920xsomething TV whose tuner died.  My only 
problem is that it faces the shop door, and has a dual 32 watt HE tube 
light fixture right above it and only 2 feet away, so the display, while 
razer sharp, is washed out by ambient light.  I've been looking for a 
smaller monitor with better brightness that I can mount over the lathe 
head, I've have a lot less crick in the neck after running the lathe as the 
only place to put that big honk is on top of the tool cabinet, itself about 
64" high, so I am looking up at about a 40 degree angle.  But all I can 
find at Staples is el cheapo stuff with half the resolution, for $140 and 
up.  Sad state of affairs indeed.
 
> - Original Message -
> Hi all,
> I'm looking for an ITX-sized motherboard that will work well with
> linuxcnc.
> 
> I now have an Atom DN2800MT which has a lot of positives:
> - powered from a single DC-jack
> - passive cooling (just a slow case-fan is enough I assume)
> - HDMI output
> 
> However there seems to be one *big* minus which is the CedarView
> integrated graphics chip. First they are only available on recent
> Ubuntu distributions and second only on the 32-bit versions (not
> 64-bit). Thirdly I have now tried a fresh install of 12.04LTS (which
> works, but the graphics are slow and the resolution wrong with the
> generic driver) on this board and the cedarview graphics driver install
> always fails rendering the machine unusable (garbled screen at bootup).
> 
> The board has a single PCIE slot which I don't want to use for a
> graphics card since I want to use it for a Mesa FPGA-card.
> 
> Any ideas or suggestions?
> 
> AW
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] What current ITX board?

[Viesturs Lācis]

2012/12/2 Pete Matos :
>
> Here is a linkpeace
>
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813121442

I have built more than 5 machines with D525MW board and will continue
using them as long as it will be in stock for any seller in my
country. Take a look, if You can locate it and grab it, while it is
available.

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Re: [Emc-users] What current ITX board?

[Kent A. Reed]

On 12/2/2012 7:26 AM, Anders Wallin wrote:
> Hi all,
> I'm looking for an ITX-sized motherboard that will work well with linuxcnc.
>
> I now have an Atom DN2800MT which has a lot of positives:
> - powered from a single DC-jack
> - passive cooling (just a slow case-fan is enough I assume)
> - HDMI output
>
> However there seems to be one *big* minus which is the CedarView integrated
> graphics chip. First they are only available on recent Ubuntu distributions
> and second only on the 32-bit versions (not 64-bit). Thirdly I have now
> tried a fresh install of 12.04LTS (which works, but the graphics are slow
> and the resolution wrong with the generic driver) on this board and the
> cedarview graphics driver install always fails rendering the machine
> unusable (garbled screen at bootup).
>
> The board has a single PCIE slot which I don't want to use for a graphics
> card since I want to use it for a Mesa FPGA-card.
>
> Any ideas or suggestions?
>
> AW

Hi, Anders.

Last July, Lester was remarking on the DN2800MT graphics problem

>> DN2800MT will install XP, Probably Vista, W7 and Linux with graphics switched
>> off. Enabling graphics in Linux seems to be hit and miss but basically there 
>> are
>> no drivers for the Intel GMA 3600 graphics for Linux or XP but XP will run.

to which Andy responded

> I don't understand the problem. I just installed the LinuxCNC 2.5
> LiveCD, and it works as expected.
>
> What do you mean by "enabling graphics"?
>
> I have only used it on the VGA connector, (plugged into my TV,
> actually) but I get the normal Axis interface, and can run glxgears,
> and mouse/keyboard response is entirely normal.

I'm curious about the difference between Andy's remark "entirely normal" 
and your remark "slow and the resolution wrong with the generic driver". 
Is it related to VGA vs HDMI or perhaps to Andy apparently running 
Ubuntu 10.04LTS ("LinuxCNC 2.5 LiveCD") and you running 12.04LTS?

Also, I have yet to run a program that obviously runs better in 64-bit 
versus 32-bit Linux. Is 64-bit really a criterion for you?

Comments?

Regards,
Kent


Aside: Intel has preparing to launch Valley View in 2013. From 
Phoronix.com, "Valley View will see full Linux support and is looking to 
be fantastic: an Atom SoC with Ivy Bridge graphics." The winds of change 
keep on blowing.

Aside**2: I understand why these boards are showing up with HDMI but the 
HDMI connector is lousy physically. I have enough trouble with 
intermittent connections to my TV as the cable is flexed. I could 
imagine this connector being a nightmare in a machine shop. Too bad the 
industry felt the need to abandon reliable but more costly solutions.


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Re: [Emc-users] What current ITX board?

[Todd Zuercher]

Since LinuxCNC doesn't really support 64bit that is kind of a moot point.  Most 
CNC machine applications don't need hi-res graphics, so most users are fine 
with the default generic vesa driver graphics, at least that is all I'm using 
on mine.  All this was fine for me since the only thing the computer is used 
for is to run the machine.  If I need to do computer work, like cad cam or 
anything else, I use my office computer where I can sit down in quiet.

- Original Message -
Hi all,
I'm looking for an ITX-sized motherboard that will work well with linuxcnc.

I now have an Atom DN2800MT which has a lot of positives:
- powered from a single DC-jack
- passive cooling (just a slow case-fan is enough I assume)
- HDMI output

However there seems to be one *big* minus which is the CedarView integrated
graphics chip. First they are only available on recent Ubuntu distributions
and second only on the 32-bit versions (not 64-bit). Thirdly I have now
tried a fresh install of 12.04LTS (which works, but the graphics are slow
and the resolution wrong with the generic driver) on this board and the
cedarview graphics driver install always fails rendering the machine
unusable (garbled screen at bootup).

The board has a single PCIE slot which I don't want to use for a graphics
card since I want to use it for a Mesa FPGA-card.

Any ideas or suggestions?

AW
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mailto:zuerc...@embarqmail.com



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Re: [Emc-users] What current ITX board?

[Pete Matos]

Anders,
While I cannot comment on how it works I just recently bought  a brand
new Intel Atom motherboard from Newegg.com on the recommendation of two
other users who have functioning machines that work well with them. I have
yet to install and test it out as I JUST received my ram order yesterday.
However my two friends and several other folks apparently have been using
this board with good results. It apparently tests well in the latency area
and is pretty good for a LinuxCNC conversion. It does have only one PCI
slot but it has a parallel, and serial as well as several USB ports on it.
Here is a linkpeace

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813121442

Hope this helps and good luck man. Peace

Pete



On Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 7:26 AM, Anders Wallin
wrote:

> Hi all,
> I'm looking for an ITX-sized motherboard that will work well with linuxcnc.
>
> I now have an Atom DN2800MT which has a lot of positives:
> - powered from a single DC-jack
> - passive cooling (just a slow case-fan is enough I assume)
> - HDMI output
>
> However there seems to be one *big* minus which is the CedarView integrated
> graphics chip. First they are only available on recent Ubuntu distributions
> and second only on the 32-bit versions (not 64-bit). Thirdly I have now
> tried a fresh install of 12.04LTS (which works, but the graphics are slow
> and the resolution wrong with the generic driver) on this board and the
> cedarview graphics driver install always fails rendering the machine
> unusable (garbled screen at bootup).
>
> The board has a single PCIE slot which I don't want to use for a graphics
> card since I want to use it for a Mesa FPGA-card.
>
> Any ideas or suggestions?
>
> AW
>
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> http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/
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Re: [Emc-users] What current ITX board?

[Lester Caine]

Anders Wallin wrote:
> The board has a single PCIE slot which I don't want to use for a graphics
> card since I want to use it for a Mesa FPGA-card.

http://linitx.com/product/12331 all right you don't need the power supply, but 
the two PCI slots are useful ;)
I'm currently using it with http://linitx.com/product/13485 which is a nicely 
priced option for motherboard, and a 16Gb SSD disk makes a nice package.

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[Emc-users] What current ITX board?

[Anders Wallin]

Hi all,
I'm looking for an ITX-sized motherboard that will work well with linuxcnc.

I now have an Atom DN2800MT which has a lot of positives:
- powered from a single DC-jack
- passive cooling (just a slow case-fan is enough I assume)
- HDMI output

However there seems to be one *big* minus which is the CedarView integrated
graphics chip. First they are only available on recent Ubuntu distributions
and second only on the 32-bit versions (not 64-bit). Thirdly I have now
tried a fresh install of 12.04LTS (which works, but the graphics are slow
and the resolution wrong with the generic driver) on this board and the
cedarview graphics driver install always fails rendering the machine
unusable (garbled screen at bootup).

The board has a single PCIE slot which I don't want to use for a graphics
card since I want to use it for a Mesa FPGA-card.

Any ideas or suggestions?

AW
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