Re: [Emc-users] diesel motor control
It is amazing how many similar interests there are in the industrial community. I have a functional Bridgeport VMC in the garage and a Makino wire EDM that needs a little maintenance before it is fired up. I'm not really interested in something unless I think I can build something myself. In the driveway is an '85 Chevy 6.2L diesel flatbed. I have about $1200 in it right now. The diesel technology from '85 is much different than today. It runs fine but does not have forced air induction and belches black smoke. Back then they didn't care much about air-fuel ratios with diesels. I did quite a bit of research on diesels mostly in the racing arena (torque = speed). Bosch does have 32,000PSI injectors but they can be fed with a relatively low pressure pump of 1500PSI. The fuel is compressed in the injector using a piezo stack. Control of the piezo stack is the key. There is probably a science behind controlling the new direct injection (DI) systems. Some mfgs are known to pressurize the cylinder and inject a minimal drop of fuel in a small auxiliary pocket of the combustion chamber. As the fuel ignites and starts to spread the flame front into the main chamber a second and longer pulse of fuel is injected and probably at top dead center or after (power pulse). The result is a much quieter explosion by controlling the volume of fuel over time. A standard volume of fuel in a power stroke thrown in all at once yields a bang (old style knock). A small puff of an explosion accompanied by a longer pulse width softens the blow but the expansion of gases still provides a lot of torque. The small volume of fuel from DI is also compatible with propane injection because the propane is looking for any ignition source, large or small. This would also help fuel economy. I wouldn't be opposed to putting a 10 gal propane tank in the trunk. I like diesel because it is simple. Put a drop of oil in an environment with a high compression ratio at 150 degrees F and boom. The newer Bosch direct injection (DI) injectors can output as little as 1 mm^3 of diesel by sending a narrow pulse width to the injector. You can virtually figure your fuel economy based on some assumptions: 1 mm^3 fuel every other revolution per cylinder in a 4-cycle engine, 1 mm^3 of fuel per cylinder is enough to provide sufficient torque to overcome wind and rolling resistance (40HP typ), diesel produces 2x the torque per firing than gas and a light weight chassis typically running at 60MPH highway speed. Instead of using a rotary encoder on the crank I would use a 4-6-8 position sensor that had fairly accurate geometry cylinder to cylinder and key off that. The engine is not going to change speed so quickly that you can't predict where it is. From one cylinder firing to the next firing the engine won't double in speed. Diesels accelerate slowly. I would have predictive software that knew the current speed and acceleration of the crank. A combination of this data and the position sensor would tell me when to fire. As long as I am consistent in timing cylinder to cylinder the engine won't care. The DI injectors allow you to tweak before, during and after top dead center fuel pulses. Diesel is a slow burning fuel. At higher speeds you would need to advance the DI pulse to achieve a near complete burn by the end of the cycle. At 5000 RPM the combustion period is about 6ms. I'll probably never get to build my 2L 4-cyl 5000RPM 300HP diesel racing engine but some day may buy a DI injector for $300 or so and retrofit my 21 JD lawnmower with a diesel. Dennis - Original Message - From: Stuart Stevenson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: EMC2-Users-List Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 11:51 AM Subject: Re: [Emc-users] diesel motor control Gentlemen, I am like the 5 year old boy with a hammer. 'Everything' looks like a nail. I want to control the injectors with EMC. The current diesel technology is common rail injection using HIGH injection pressure. Bosch talks about 2200 bar. 2200 bar is almost 32,000 psi. WOW! They also have multiple injections per combustion cycle. They also talk about variable geometry during the injection cycle. This sounds like a job (nail) for EMC. I won't try for the high pressures as I will use currently available injectors and pumps. To get the project going I need to start simple. I will use a used pump and injectors from a Volkswagon (or other). I will modify the head to accept the injectors. I will build an adaptor or bracket to mount the pump. Voila! :) running in two weeks! heh heh heh thanks Stuart - SF.Net email is sponsored by: The Future of Linux Business White Paper from Novell. From the desktop to the data center, Linux is going mainstream. Let it simplify your IT future. http
Re: [Emc-users] diesel motor control
Gentlemen, I am like the 5 year old boy with a hammer. 'Everything' looks like a nail. I want to control the injectors with EMC. The current diesel technology is common rail injection using HIGH injection pressure. Bosch talks about 2200 bar. 2200 bar is almost 32,000 psi. WOW! They also have multiple injections per combustion cycle. They also talk about variable geometry during the injection cycle. This sounds like a job (nail) for EMC. I won't try for the high pressures as I will use currently available injectors and pumps. To get the project going I need to start simple. I will use a used pump and injectors from a Volkswagon (or other). I will modify the head to accept the injectors. I will build an adaptor or bracket to mount the pump. Voila! :) running in two weeks! heh heh heh thanks Stuart - SF.Net email is sponsored by: The Future of Linux Business White Paper from Novell. From the desktop to the data center, Linux is going mainstream. Let it simplify your IT future. http://altfarm.mediaplex.com/ad/ck/8857-50307-18918-4 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] diesel motor control
That's it. Thanks Dick. They're talking about 10K RPM which seems like it would be an EMC2 issue. A diesel would not be quite so bad but even 3K raises a bit of concern about angular resolution. Engineers and math able folk among us will no doubt fix my humble work below. 1 -- assumes 5 PPS parport pulse reader 3000 RPM = 50 RPS 5/50 = 1000 pulses per rotation 360/1000 = 0.36 degree resolution 9600 RPM = 160 RPS 5/160 = 312.5 pulses per rotation 360/312.5 = 1.152 degree resolution That's a pretty capable computer so a prototype would cost $350 or so plus the cost of the encoder. 2 -- assumes modest FPGA reader with 2 Meg ability 200/50 = 4 pulse per rotation 360/4 = 0.009 degree resolution 200/160 = 12500 pulse per rotation 360/12500 = 0.0288 Now we're looking at an investment of about $500 + encoder. With my pic inability that is still pretty inexpensive for a prototype. Absolutely no question but that I agree with those who would run any production model, or roadworthy device with pic or other micro devices. Add to these costs proper redundant processing and voting and it really tilts toward dedicated processing. But the idea of a prototype with HAL is still really attractive because most any of us could hack the .hal together in quick time and we would have expanded processing ability to run tests and tabulate results. Rayh On Fri, 2007-11-30 at 04:52 -0800, Richard L. Wurdack wrote: EVIC http://rbowes1.11net.com/dbowes/ Dick - Original Message - From: Ray Henry [EMAIL PROTECTED] - SF.Net email is sponsored by: The Future of Linux Business White Paper from Novell. From the desktop to the data center, Linux is going mainstream. Let it simplify your IT future. http://altfarm.mediaplex.com/ad/ck/8857-50307-18918-4 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] diesel motor control
EVIC http://rbowes1.11net.com/dbowes/ Dick - Original Message - From: Ray Henry [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 6:44 PM Subject: Re: [Emc-users] diesel motor control On Thu, 2007-11-29 at 21:31 -0500, John Kasunich wrote: The number of things that can go wrong in a PC is far more than in a simple microcontroller based system. To be honest, I'd stick with a mechanical injection pump - and I'm an electrical engineer! Mechanical things just seem more robust to me. I know the feeling but I was thinking about one class of motors that ran at NAMES a few years ago. They used solenoids to drive the valves. I thought progressive valve and injection timing was pretty neat. That was not done with the EMC of the day, but could have been. To paraphrase someone, when EMC2 is the only tool you've got handy, every problem begins to look like motion. And EMC2 is darn handy. Rayh - SF.Net email is sponsored by: The Future of Linux Business White Paper from Novell. From the desktop to the data center, Linux is going mainstream. Let it simplify your IT future. http://altfarm.mediaplex.com/ad/ck/8857-50307-18918-4 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users - SF.Net email is sponsored by: The Future of Linux Business White Paper from Novell. From the desktop to the data center, Linux is going mainstream. Let it simplify your IT future. http://altfarm.mediaplex.com/ad/ck/8857-50307-18918-4 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] diesel motor control
i think what your looking for is called squirt http://www.megasquirt.info/ Jon Elson wrote: Stuart Stevenson wrote: Gentlemen, This doesn't have anything to do with machine tools. I am starting another project. I have retired my 1984 Mercury Lynx diesel. The body rusted out and the car is not drivable. I bought a 1991 Mazda 323. Alas, this is a gas motor car. I like diesel. I want to put the Mazda diesel out of the Lynx into the 323. It will bolt up to the bell housing. But, prior to installing it into the 323 I want to modify the diesel motor. I want to install common rail injection. This will require electronic control of the injectors and injector timing. This is where EMC comes in. I want to have an embedded EMC control that boots in 3 seconds or less and will control the injectors. I think EMC should be able to do this easily and control other functions as well. My goal is to have this modified and installed by next summer. Ohhh, my, you have inherited that form of nuttiness I know all too well! (Ask me about the ill-fated electric/hybrid car project at the next CNC Workshop.) First, I don't think you want EMC at all, no need for G-code to run an engine. You may well find a way to use HAL components for this. First, you want solid-state disks of some flavor. You probably want an embedded CPU, with a BIOS that doesn't require video, keyboard, mouse, etc. Really, what you want is no Linux at all, just the real time scheduler and the most basic kernel services, and enough support to start it from a HAL script. Jon - SF.Net email is sponsored by: The Future of Linux Business White Paper from Novell. From the desktop to the data center, Linux is going mainstream. Let it simplify your IT future. http://altfarm.mediaplex.com/ad/ck/8857-50307-18918-4 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users - SF.Net email is sponsored by: The Future of Linux Business White Paper from Novell. From the desktop to the data center, Linux is going mainstream. Let it simplify your IT future. http://altfarm.mediaplex.com/ad/ck/8857-50307-18918-4 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] diesel motor control
Stuart Stevenson wrote: Gentlemen, This doesn't have anything to do with machine tools. I am starting another project. I have retired my 1984 Mercury Lynx diesel. The body rusted out and the car is not drivable. I bought a 1991 Mazda 323. Alas, this is a gas motor car. I like diesel. I want to put the Mazda diesel out of the Lynx into the 323. It will bolt up to the bell housing. But, prior to installing it into the 323 I want to modify the diesel motor. I want to install common rail injection. This will require electronic control of the injectors and injector timing. This is where EMC comes in. I want to have an embedded EMC control that boots in 3 seconds or less and will control the injectors. I think EMC should be able to do this easily and control other functions as well. My goal is to have this modified and installed by next summer. Ohhh, my, you have inherited that form of nuttiness I know all too well! (Ask me about the ill-fated electric/hybrid car project at the next CNC Workshop.) First, I don't think you want EMC at all, no need for G-code to run an engine. You may well find a way to use HAL components for this. First, you want solid-state disks of some flavor. You probably want an embedded CPU, with a BIOS that doesn't require video, keyboard, mouse, etc. Really, what you want is no Linux at all, just the real time scheduler and the most basic kernel services, and enough support to start it from a HAL script. Jon - SF.Net email is sponsored by: The Future of Linux Business White Paper from Novell. From the desktop to the data center, Linux is going mainstream. Let it simplify your IT future. http://altfarm.mediaplex.com/ad/ck/8857-50307-18918-4 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] diesel motor control
Hi all, In 1975 I installed a mil surplus diesel in a 3/4 T pickup. Ended up putting about 5000 hrs on that rig. Never did anything heavier than 27,000 GVW ... (with 55 hp at the flywheel) ... big grunt. Injection pumps, especially the inline ones are very reliable. If I were to fool with that kind of thing today I'd work on dynamic timing; i.e servo the rotation of the pump to get the optimum timing curve vs both rpm and load. Less smoke and a bit more efficiency. I suppose you could actually rotate the shaft of the pump with a servo but I was thinking about just moving the pump a few degrees (maybe 30) to adjust timing. Having said that injection pumps are noisy. Just listen to one on the test stand when it is being calibrated. Most of the click-click at idle is the pump. Maybe the electro- mechanical would be quieter but I wouldn't bet on it. You still need enough pressure to atomize the fuel. (~1200 - 1500 psi) HTH Dave On Nov 29, 2007, at 6:44 PM, Ray Henry wrote: On Thu, 2007-11-29 at 21:31 -0500, John Kasunich wrote: The number of things that can go wrong in a PC is far more than in a simple microcontroller based system. To be honest, I'd stick with a mechanical injection pump - and I'm an electrical engineer! Mechanical things just seem more robust to me. I know the feeling but I was thinking about one class of motors that ran at NAMES a few years ago. They used solenoids to drive the valves. I thought progressive valve and injection timing was pretty neat. That was not done with the EMC of the day, but could have been. To paraphrase someone, when EMC2 is the only tool you've got handy, every problem begins to look like motion. And EMC2 is darn handy. Rayh -- --- SF.Net email is sponsored by: The Future of Linux Business White Paper from Novell. From the desktop to the data center, Linux is going mainstream. Let it simplify your IT future. http://altfarm.mediaplex.com/ad/ck/8857-50307-18918-4 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users - SF.Net email is sponsored by: The Future of Linux Business White Paper from Novell. From the desktop to the data center, Linux is going mainstream. Let it simplify your IT future. http://altfarm.mediaplex.com/ad/ck/8857-50307-18918-4 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] diesel motor control
You got my attention with this! I'm a diesel likin' man myself - I have a Mercedes diesel car and an older Ford diesel pickup and a couple of diesel tractors. I've often thought of doing something like you're talking about. I'm currently using and programming PIC microcontrollers at work, and I'd agree with Javid that a microcontroller might be a better fit for the job. Seems like the hardware requirements with EMC would be kind of an overkill? Anyhow, I'd like to hear more about your project as it comes along. It might inspire me to actually do a conversion like that on a diesel motor or two I have laying around. Moses Stuart Stevenson wrote: Gentlemen, This doesn't have anything to do with machine tools. I am starting another project. I have retired my 1984 Mercury Lynx diesel. The body rusted out and the car is not drivable. I bought a 1991 Mazda 323. Alas, this is a gas motor car. I like diesel. I want to put the Mazda diesel out of the Lynx into the 323. It will bolt up to the bell housing. But, prior to installing it into the 323 I want to modify the diesel motor. I want to install common rail injection. This will require electronic control of the injectors and injector timing. This is where EMC comes in. I want to have an embedded EMC control that boots in 3 seconds or less and will control the injectors. I think EMC should be able to do this easily and control other functions as well. My goal is to have this modified and installed by next summer. Stuart - SF.Net email is sponsored by: The Future of Linux Business White Paper from Novell. From the desktop to the data center, Linux is going mainstream. Let it simplify your IT future. http://altfarm.mediaplex.com/ad/ck/8857-50307-18918-4 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users - SF.Net email is sponsored by: The Future of Linux Business White Paper from Novell. From the desktop to the data center, Linux is going mainstream. Let it simplify your IT future. http://altfarm.mediaplex.com/ad/ck/8857-50307-18918-4 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] diesel motor control
Stuart- You are probably better off doing it in a microcontroller than EMC. A friend and I converted a car to run on Ethanol back in the early 90's (yes, way ahead of our time) and fooling around with the injector timing was the tricky part. That was a throttle body fuel injection system with a single injector-a relatively simple task. How familiar are you with microcontrollers? Javid - Original Message - From: Stuart Stevenson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: EMC2-Users-List Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 7:54 PM Subject: [Emc-users] diesel motor control Gentlemen, This doesn't have anything to do with machine tools. I am starting another project. I have retired my 1984 Mercury Lynx diesel. The body rusted out and the car is not drivable. I bought a 1991 Mazda 323. Alas, this is a gas motor car. I like diesel. I want to put the Mazda diesel out of the Lynx into the 323. It will bolt up to the bell housing. But, prior to installing it into the 323 I want to modify the diesel motor. I want to install common rail injection. This will require electronic control of the injectors and injector timing. This is where EMC comes in. I want to have an embedded EMC control that boots in 3 seconds or less and will control the injectors. I think EMC should be able to do this easily and control other functions as well. My goal is to have this modified and installed by next summer. Stuart - SF.Net email is sponsored by: The Future of Linux Business White Paper from Novell. From the desktop to the data center, Linux is going mainstream. Let it simplify your IT future. http://altfarm.mediaplex.com/ad/ck/8857-50307-18918-4 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users - SF.Net email is sponsored by: The Future of Linux Business White Paper from Novell. From the desktop to the data center, Linux is going mainstream. Let it simplify your IT future. http://altfarm.mediaplex.com/ad/ck/8857-50307-18918-4 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
[Emc-users] diesel motor control
Gentlemen, This doesn't have anything to do with machine tools. I am starting another project. I have retired my 1984 Mercury Lynx diesel. The body rusted out and the car is not drivable. I bought a 1991 Mazda 323. Alas, this is a gas motor car. I like diesel. I want to put the Mazda diesel out of the Lynx into the 323. It will bolt up to the bell housing. But, prior to installing it into the 323 I want to modify the diesel motor. I want to install common rail injection. This will require electronic control of the injectors and injector timing. This is where EMC comes in. I want to have an embedded EMC control that boots in 3 seconds or less and will control the injectors. I think EMC should be able to do this easily and control other functions as well. My goal is to have this modified and installed by next summer. Stuart - SF.Net email is sponsored by: The Future of Linux Business White Paper from Novell. From the desktop to the data center, Linux is going mainstream. Let it simplify your IT future. http://altfarm.mediaplex.com/ad/ck/8857-50307-18918-4 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] diesel motor control
Ray Henry wrote: The HAL with a good kernel and processor match and some optimiztion should be able to handle the job. Most of the mind work would be to see how much resolution you can get at the max rotation speed of the motor. Rayh Capable, yes. The best choice? I doubt it. The number of things that can go wrong in a PC is far more than in a simple microcontroller based system. To be honest, I'd stick with a mechanical injection pump - and I'm an electrical engineer! Mechanical things just seem more robust to me. I know next to nothing about diesels in general and automotive ones in particular, there may be something particularly horrible about the existing injection pump that makes an electronic replacement desirable. Regards, John Kasunich - SF.Net email is sponsored by: The Future of Linux Business White Paper from Novell. From the desktop to the data center, Linux is going mainstream. Let it simplify your IT future. http://altfarm.mediaplex.com/ad/ck/8857-50307-18918-4 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
