Re: [Emc-users] electrical inspection pain
Nobody's told me I can't install a little heatpump, and I'm not going looking. I don't plan on messing with the refrigerant myself though. I have a good friend (mech engr) that I can call on, who spent a decade or so installing and maintaining refrigeration systems for a supermarket. I have also talked to a friend that owns an HVAC company in town, and he is willing to do the commissioning on the system after I've installed everything (for a few hundred $ I suspect). The system I've ordered has the refrigerant in the outside unit. -- Ralph From: Gregg Eshelman via Emc-users [emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net] Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2021 6:47 PM To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) Cc: Gregg Eshelman Subject: Re: [Emc-users] electrical inspection pain CAUTION: This email originated from outside the Walla Walla University email system. How picky are they in Washington about DIY HVAC? I looked up the relevant code for Idaho and for doing an install on your own residence you don't need a "certificate of competency" but may need to have the install pass a mechanical inspection. (But many HVAC shop techs will insist that ALL such work must be done by a certified technician.) There are a couple of companies that make DIY mini split heat pumps but their special refrigerant line sets only come in 16 and 25 foot lengths. I need maybe five feet between where I want to put the inside and outside units. For the other makes and models they have all the refrigerant contained within the outside unit and the refrigerant lines use flared ends and threaded fittings. Assemble the system, pull a vacuum on the service port. Close the service valve and disconnect the vacuum pump. Remove the caps off the refrigerant valves and fully open them with a hex key (usually comes with the system) then reinstall the valve caps. Wait around 5 minites to ensure the refrigerant has distributed through the pipes and inside unit and you're finished, aside from setting it up on WiFi and installing the app on your phone, if it has such features. The DIY kits don't need a vacuum pump because the lines are either precharged or vacuumed and they have valves installed on their ends which open as they're screwed onto the other components. NEC code requires a disconnect near the outside unit, placed not more than 6 feet above ground level. Curiously, there's no minimum height above ground level for the disconnect. Rather odd how the NEC code can be so lax and vague on some things but very exacting on others. I happen to have a very good Gast rotary vane vacuum pump that can pull 29 inches of mercury. Just need to come up with the right fitting to put on the end of the hose. I've used it on some vehicle air conditioners, take the car to an AC shop to have the r134a pulled out, bring it home, do what parts need replaced, pull the vacuum myself then back to the AC shop to have it refilled because jumpering wires to the compressor clutch is a bit of a pain to make it draw in from the little cans. $25 to suck the refrigerant out, $25 to put it back in plus whatever for additional refrigerant if needed. I can get a 15K BTU mini split heat pump for well under $1K, shouldn't have to pay some guy another few hundred just to bring out a vacuum pump for a couple of hours then open two valves. The heat pump currently in use for the part of the house served by ductwork was installed over a decade ago and all the company used was a vacuum pump to evacuate the lines. After a couple of hours the tech took the pump off and opened the refrigerant valves. It had a 10 year parts warranty and about a week less than 10 years later the compressor quit. Installing the new compressor was what required the refrigerant recovery system and weighing how much new r410a was put back in. Got nicked $1000 for that for labor and new refrigerant when they should have only charged for the labor and any additional refrigerant that may have been required above what was pulled out. Automotive AC shops will at least credit the value of extracted refrigerant because if they don't put the same stuff back in they'll use it on another job. On Wednesday, July 28, 2021, 6:28:32 PM MDT, Ralph Stirling wrote: I just got my inspection report by email. The inspector couldn't even remember that it was a mill, and called it a "lathe". He references RCW 19.28 and WAC 296-46B-903. I think my best option is to use this as an excuse to buy a phase converter. It will be UL approved, and I'll connect it to the 220 circuit. It should serve as the "load" as far as the inspector is concerned. I don't want to start lying about my machinery and intentions. A phase converter for testing and repairing 3ph machines is legitimate enough. I'll either tarp my CNC mill in place as Chris suggested, or move it temporarily ($250 for forklift rental twice). The mill is a 1998 Frenc
Re: [Emc-users] electrical inspection pain
How picky are they in Washington about DIY HVAC? I looked up the relevant code for Idaho and for doing an install on your own residence you don't need a "certificate of competency" but may need to have the install pass a mechanical inspection. (But many HVAC shop techs will insist that ALL such work must be done by a certified technician.) There are a couple of companies that make DIY mini split heat pumps but their special refrigerant line sets only come in 16 and 25 foot lengths. I need maybe five feet between where I want to put the inside and outside units. For the other makes and models they have all the refrigerant contained within the outside unit and the refrigerant lines use flared ends and threaded fittings. Assemble the system, pull a vacuum on the service port. Close the service valve and disconnect the vacuum pump. Remove the caps off the refrigerant valves and fully open them with a hex key (usually comes with the system) then reinstall the valve caps. Wait around 5 minites to ensure the refrigerant has distributed through the pipes and inside unit and you're finished, aside from setting it up on WiFi and installing the app on your phone, if it has such features. The DIY kits don't need a vacuum pump because the lines are either precharged or vacuumed and they have valves installed on their ends which open as they're screwed onto the other components. NEC code requires a disconnect near the outside unit, placed not more than 6 feet above ground level. Curiously, there's no minimum height above ground level for the disconnect. Rather odd how the NEC code can be so lax and vague on some things but very exacting on others. I happen to have a very good Gast rotary vane vacuum pump that can pull 29 inches of mercury. Just need to come up with the right fitting to put on the end of the hose. I've used it on some vehicle air conditioners, take the car to an AC shop to have the r134a pulled out, bring it home, do what parts need replaced, pull the vacuum myself then back to the AC shop to have it refilled because jumpering wires to the compressor clutch is a bit of a pain to make it draw in from the little cans. $25 to suck the refrigerant out, $25 to put it back in plus whatever for additional refrigerant if needed. I can get a 15K BTU mini split heat pump for well under $1K, shouldn't have to pay some guy another few hundred just to bring out a vacuum pump for a couple of hours then open two valves. The heat pump currently in use for the part of the house served by ductwork was installed over a decade ago and all the company used was a vacuum pump to evacuate the lines. After a couple of hours the tech took the pump off and opened the refrigerant valves. It had a 10 year parts warranty and about a week less than 10 years later the compressor quit. Installing the new compressor was what required the refrigerant recovery system and weighing how much new r410a was put back in. Got nicked $1000 for that for labor and new refrigerant when they should have only charged for the labor and any additional refrigerant that may have been required above what was pulled out. Automotive AC shops will at least credit the value of extracted refrigerant because if they don't put the same stuff back in they'll use it on another job. On Wednesday, July 28, 2021, 6:28:32 PM MDT, Ralph Stirling wrote: I just got my inspection report by email. The inspector couldn't even remember that it was a mill, and called it a "lathe". He references RCW 19.28 and WAC 296-46B-903. I think my best option is to use this as an excuse to buy a phase converter. It will be UL approved, and I'll connect it to the 220 circuit. It should serve as the "load" as far as the inspector is concerned. I don't want to start lying about my machinery and intentions. A phase converter for testing and repairing 3ph machines is legitimate enough. I'll either tarp my CNC mill in place as Chris suggested, or move it temporarily ($250 for forklift rental twice). The mill is a 1998 French Realmeca C2, with absolutely no labels of any sort on it. Good electrical diagram, but that carries no weight. Thanks for all the advice, everybody. I'll update when I finally pass. I need another visit after I finish installing my ductless heat pump anyway. ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] electrical inspection pain
On 7/28/21 7:26 PM, Ralph Stirling wrote: I just got my inspection report by email. The inspector couldn't even remember that it was a mill, and called it a "lathe". He references RCW 19.28 and WAC 296-46B-903. I think my best option is to use this as an excuse to buy a phase converter. It will be UL approved, and I'll connect it to the 220 circuit. It should serve as the "load" as far as the inspector is concerned. I don't want to start lying about my machinery and intentions. A phase converter for testing and repairing 3ph machines is legitimate enough. I'll either tarp my CNC mill in place as Chris suggested, or move it temporarily ($250 for forklift rental twice). The mill is a 1998 French Realmeca C2, with absolutely no labels of any sort on it. Good electrical diagram, but that carries no weight. Thanks for all the advice, everybody. I'll update when I finally pass. I need another visit after I finish installing my ductless heat pump anyway. -- Ralph Sure makes me glad I don't live where you do. Ed. ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] electrical inspection pain
I just got my inspection report by email. The inspector couldn't even remember that it was a mill, and called it a "lathe". He references RCW 19.28 and WAC 296-46B-903. I think my best option is to use this as an excuse to buy a phase converter. It will be UL approved, and I'll connect it to the 220 circuit. It should serve as the "load" as far as the inspector is concerned. I don't want to start lying about my machinery and intentions. A phase converter for testing and repairing 3ph machines is legitimate enough. I'll either tarp my CNC mill in place as Chris suggested, or move it temporarily ($250 for forklift rental twice). The mill is a 1998 French Realmeca C2, with absolutely no labels of any sort on it. Good electrical diagram, but that carries no weight. Thanks for all the advice, everybody. I'll update when I finally pass. I need another visit after I finish installing my ductless heat pump anyway. -- Ralph From: Bari [bari00...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2021 3:06 PM To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Emc-users] electrical inspection pain CAUTION: This email originated from outside the Walla Walla University email system. Replace mill with UL approved saw or similar for $100 off CL (if you don't already have one). Call for inspection. On 7/28/21 2:14 PM, Ralph Stirling wrote: > I'm in a bind now. I just had the electrical wiring I put > into my garage shop inspected. The WA state inspector > liked my wiring fine, but balked at the non-UL-listed > CNC mill (the main point to my whole garage shop project). > He insists it get stamped by one of the *seven* official > "approved engineers" for the state of WA before he can > sign off on my electric. I suspect that the field approval > would cost considerably more than my entire mill (1998 > vintage French 5hp spindle, 300x200x300mm travels, > $5K). Didn't matter to him that the new VFD is listed. > > Any other US-based, especially WA-based LinuxCNC > retrofitters faced this problem successfully? > > Thanks, > -- Ralph > > ___ > Emc-users mailing list > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.sourceforge.net%2Flists%2Flistinfo%2Femc-usersdata=04%7C01%7Cralph.stirling%40wallawalla.edu%7C52abd7130bca44cad9a408d95213f435%7Cd958f048e43142779c8debfb75e7aa64%7C0%7C0%7C637631067926333800%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000sdata=byd0VosvVDmAs8M2iHoOJhppwlrRgaYGwgYNNiRGGOI%3Dreserved=0 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.sourceforge.net%2Flists%2Flistinfo%2Femc-usersdata=04%7C01%7Cralph.stirling%40wallawalla.edu%7C52abd7130bca44cad9a408d95213f435%7Cd958f048e43142779c8debfb75e7aa64%7C0%7C0%7C637631067926333800%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000sdata=byd0VosvVDmAs8M2iHoOJhppwlrRgaYGwgYNNiRGGOI%3Dreserved=0 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] electrical inspection pain
I would go with unhooking the mill and hook up a table saw with UL listing. Years ago, the surefire way to fail was to clean up the copper scrap before the inspection (the scrap would disappear) and you got your green tag.I never knew what happened to the scrap. Scott On Wednesday, July 28, 2021, 2:16:38 PM CDT, Ralph Stirling wrote: I'm in a bind now. I just had the electrical wiring I put into my garage shop inspected. The WA state inspector liked my wiring fine, but balked at the non-UL-listed CNC mill (the main point to my whole garage shop project). He insists it get stamped by one of the *seven* official "approved engineers" for the state of WA before he can sign off on my electric. I suspect that the field approval would cost considerably more than my entire mill (1998 vintage French 5hp spindle, 300x200x300mm travels, $5K). Didn't matter to him that the new VFD is listed. Any other US-based, especially WA-based LinuxCNC retrofitters faced this problem successfully? Thanks, -- Ralph ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] electrical inspection pain
Replace mill with UL approved saw or similar for $100 off CL (if you don't already have one). Call for inspection. On 7/28/21 2:14 PM, Ralph Stirling wrote: I'm in a bind now. I just had the electrical wiring I put into my garage shop inspected. The WA state inspector liked my wiring fine, but balked at the non-UL-listed CNC mill (the main point to my whole garage shop project). He insists it get stamped by one of the *seven* official "approved engineers" for the state of WA before he can sign off on my electric. I suspect that the field approval would cost considerably more than my entire mill (1998 vintage French 5hp spindle, 300x200x300mm travels, $5K). Didn't matter to him that the new VFD is listed. Any other US-based, especially WA-based LinuxCNC retrofitters faced this problem successfully? Thanks, -- Ralph ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] electrical inspection pain
He is referencing state statue WAC 296-46B-903. 2005 NEC phased in a listed requirement in Article 110. I'm not sure how it has evolved but there might be exceptions now, though, state requirements usually prevail over NEC in my experience. Could be a dead end but worth a look. I faced this problem with semiconductor equipment, in Boston, and our only solution was to have it field certified according to NFPA 79, by Intertek. A field stamp technically makes that machine "listed" and if your equipment has been evaluated before that might be sufficient. Since the machine is European you might try searching TUV database as well for IEC 60204 compliance. ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] electrical inspection pain
Hi, Why not contact UL themselves to ask more informations ? They may be helpful if you join a desctription of you machine on how this would be applicable and give hints on how to handle the certification. What I don't get is which parts need be certified, like small motors and so on, is the machine originally made in Europe ? Regards, Jean-François Le 28/07/2021 à 21:14, Ralph Stirling a écrit : I'm in a bind now. I just had the electrical wiring I put into my garage shop inspected. The WA state inspector liked my wiring fine, but balked at the non-UL-listed CNC mill (the main point to my whole garage shop project). He insists it get stamped by one of the *seven* official "approved engineers" for the state of WA before he can sign off on my electric. I suspect that the field approval would cost considerably more than my entire mill (1998 vintage French 5hp spindle, 300x200x300mm travels, $5K). Didn't matter to him that the new VFD is listed. Any other US-based, especially WA-based LinuxCNC retrofitters faced this problem successfully? Thanks, -- Ralph ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] electrical inspection pain
After thinking about it more this seems ridiculous. You are not running a machining business, you are building your own machines for personal use. Why can't you just say you are a machine developer just like any other business that develops products. Things developed in the labs are not UL listed or approved and those things are also marked as "not for sale". UL approval does not come until the final design is tested and made ready for sale. John Figie On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 4:24 PM John Figie wrote: > My electrical inspector (in WI) never looked at my LinuxCNC machines > closely but they look like Bridgeports. He was only concerned with the > building wiring. I would move the machine to a storage unit, and replace it > with a bench and hand tools, then call the inspector and say you "got rid" > of the machine because it was too expensive to get it approved. > > John Figie > > > On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 2:17 PM Ralph Stirling < > ralph.stirl...@wallawalla.edu> wrote: > >> I'm in a bind now. I just had the electrical wiring I put >> into my garage shop inspected. The WA state inspector >> liked my wiring fine, but balked at the non-UL-listed >> CNC mill (the main point to my whole garage shop project). >> He insists it get stamped by one of the *seven* official >> "approved engineers" for the state of WA before he can >> sign off on my electric. I suspect that the field approval >> would cost considerably more than my entire mill (1998 >> vintage French 5hp spindle, 300x200x300mm travels, >> $5K). Didn't matter to him that the new VFD is listed. >> >> Any other US-based, especially WA-based LinuxCNC >> retrofitters faced this problem successfully? >> >> Thanks, >> -- Ralph >> >> ___ >> Emc-users mailing list >> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users >> > ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] electrical inspection pain
My electrical inspector (in WI) never looked at my LinuxCNC machines closely but they look like Bridgeports. He was only concerned with the building wiring. I would move the machine to a storage unit, and replace it with a bench and hand tools, then call the inspector and say you "got rid" of the machine because it was too expensive to get it approved. John Figie On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 2:17 PM Ralph Stirling < ralph.stirl...@wallawalla.edu> wrote: > I'm in a bind now. I just had the electrical wiring I put > into my garage shop inspected. The WA state inspector > liked my wiring fine, but balked at the non-UL-listed > CNC mill (the main point to my whole garage shop project). > He insists it get stamped by one of the *seven* official > "approved engineers" for the state of WA before he can > sign off on my electric. I suspect that the field approval > would cost considerably more than my entire mill (1998 > vintage French 5hp spindle, 300x200x300mm travels, > $5K). Didn't matter to him that the new VFD is listed. > > Any other US-based, especially WA-based LinuxCNC > retrofitters faced this problem successfully? > > Thanks, > -- Ralph > > ___ > Emc-users mailing list > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users > ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] electrical inspection pain
https://www.intertek.com/field-labeling/ If moving the mill out for re-inspection or other plans fail. On 7/28/21 2:14 PM, Ralph Stirling wrote: I'm in a bind now. I just had the electrical wiring I put into my garage shop inspected. The WA state inspector liked my wiring fine, but balked at the non-UL-listed CNC mill (the main point to my whole garage shop project). He insists it get stamped by one of the *seven* official "approved engineers" for the state of WA before he can sign off on my electric. I suspect that the field approval would cost considerably more than my entire mill (1998 vintage French 5hp spindle, 300x200x300mm travels, $5K). Didn't matter to him that the new VFD is listed. Any other US-based, especially WA-based LinuxCNC retrofitters faced this problem successfully? Thanks, -- Ralph ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] electrical inspection pain
Although electrical inspectors tend to be a power unto themselves they still have to follow the rules. i.e. WAC's and local and national electrical codes. Be as gentle as possible they tend to be prickly. Being WW they no doubt see a bunch of EU stuff for wineries. Clearly the machine didn't need approval in its former location. If there is no clear authority for what he is demanding then he is out in left field. Good luck. Dave On 7/28/21 1:22 PM, Dave Cole wrote: IMO, your building inspector is stepping way outside of his authority. His job is "building" inspection. You got a permit for your "building" project. Not for some machine sitting in your building. Unless your mill is part of the "building", he is way outside of his authority. If your mill is hardwired into your electrical system, that may be a problem. You may need to have a plug and receptacle for your mill, with the appropriate branch circuit protection (circuit breaker or fuse, etc) for the outlet. I would ask specifically why he believes your machine must be stamped when it is not part of your building. Record exactly what he says. Try and do as much in writing as possible. Emails work. Ask them what standard codes they follow and ask them to cite the sections of the code they are basing their decision on. Then appeal his decision. Tell the guy you mean no disrespect, but that you disagree with his decision and want to appeal it. They should have a process to do that. Chances are that his boss will not support his decision. Unless everything used in your county is required to be UL approved (very unlikely), I think his decision will be overturned. 7 engineers in the state who can apply a stamp are inadequate to cover all of WA state! Just make sure you are decent about it. People become irrational when they feel attacked. If they push back you need to remind them that you are suffering from loss of use due to what you believe is an arbitrary decision. Do you know any lawyers in the area? If you can, you want to copy a lawyer on all of your correspondence. The lawyer doesn't need to do anything typically if you follow the appeals process. But including legal counsel raises the bar significantly on their part. Tell the lawyer you want to copy them in case they are needed. Etc. When things get sticky for the inspectors, and you have legit arguments, they will typically back off. Getting legal counsel involved is incredibly sticky since they have to get "their" legal counsel involved as well, and that costs $$, it sparks internal meetings. Lots of paperwork, etc. Suddenly you turn into a plague on the department. I do industrial integration and have been doing it since 2003. I have LinuxCNC machines running in plants everyday. But I'm in Indiana. Dave On 7/28/2021 3:14 PM, Ralph Stirling wrote: I'm in a bind now. I just had the electrical wiring I put into my garage shop inspected. The WA state inspector liked my wiring fine, but balked at the non-UL-listed CNC mill (the main point to my whole garage shop project). He insists it get stamped by one of the *seven* official "approved engineers" for the state of WA before he can sign off on my electric. I suspect that the field approval would cost considerably more than my entire mill (1998 vintage French 5hp spindle, 300x200x300mm travels, $5K). Didn't matter to him that the new VFD is listed. Any other US-based, especially WA-based LinuxCNC retrofitters faced this problem successfully? Thanks, -- Ralph ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] electrical inspection pain
In Los Angeles City, County, and in Burbank (where I work), it has been the rule that everything used in a facility must carry the UL tag or a testing certificate from an accredited testing facility. It has been this way for a few decades now! that is when lots of companies started to use UL approved wall warts for all of their products. --J. Ray Mitchell Jr. “I predict future happiness for Americans, if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.” THOMAS JEFFERSON On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 1:22 PM Dave Cole wrote: > IMO, your building inspector is stepping way outside of his authority. > His job is "building" inspection. You got a permit for your "building" > project.Not for some machine sitting in your building. > > Unless your mill is part of the "building", he is way outside of his > authority. > > If your mill is hardwired into your electrical system, that may be a > problem. You may need to have a plug and receptacle for your mill, with > the appropriate branch circuit protection (circuit breaker or fuse, etc) > for the outlet. > > I would ask specifically why he believes your machine must be stamped > when it is not part of your building. Record exactly what he says. > Try and do as much in writing as possible. Emails work. Ask them what > standard codes they follow and ask them to cite the sections of the code > they are basing their decision on. Then appeal his decision. Tell > the guy you mean no disrespect, but that you disagree with his decision > and want to appeal it. > They should have a process to do that. Chances are that his boss will > not support his decision. Unless everything used in your county is > required to be UL approved (very unlikely), I think his decision will be > overturned.7 engineers in the state who can apply a stamp are > inadequate to cover all of WA state! Just make sure you are decent > about it. People become irrational when they feel attacked. > If they push back you need to remind them that you are suffering from > loss of use due to what you believe is an arbitrary decision. > > Do you know any lawyers in the area? If you can, you want to copy a > lawyer on all of your correspondence.The lawyer doesn't need to do > anything typically if you follow the appeals process. But including > legal counsel raises the bar significantly on their part. Tell the > lawyer you want to copy them in case they are needed. Etc. > When things get sticky for the inspectors, and you have legit arguments, > they will typically back off. Getting legal counsel involved is > incredibly sticky since they have to get "their" legal counsel involved > as well, and that costs $$, it sparks internal meetings. Lots of > paperwork, etc. Suddenly you turn into a plague on the department. > > I do industrial integration and have been doing it since 2003. I have > LinuxCNC machines running in plants everyday. > But I'm in Indiana. > > Dave > > > On 7/28/2021 3:14 PM, Ralph Stirling wrote: > > I'm in a bind now. I just had the electrical wiring I put > > into my garage shop inspected. The WA state inspector > > liked my wiring fine, but balked at the non-UL-listed > > CNC mill (the main point to my whole garage shop project). > > He insists it get stamped by one of the *seven* official > > "approved engineers" for the state of WA before he can > > sign off on my electric. I suspect that the field approval > > would cost considerably more than my entire mill (1998 > > vintage French 5hp spindle, 300x200x300mm travels, > > $5K). Didn't matter to him that the new VFD is listed. > > > > Any other US-based, especially WA-based LinuxCNC > > retrofitters faced this problem successfully? > > > > Thanks, > > -- Ralph > > > > ___ > > Emc-users mailing list > > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users > > > ___ > Emc-users mailing list > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users > ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] electrical inspection pain
IMO, your building inspector is stepping way outside of his authority. His job is "building" inspection. You got a permit for your "building" project. Not for some machine sitting in your building. Unless your mill is part of the "building", he is way outside of his authority. If your mill is hardwired into your electrical system, that may be a problem. You may need to have a plug and receptacle for your mill, with the appropriate branch circuit protection (circuit breaker or fuse, etc) for the outlet. I would ask specifically why he believes your machine must be stamped when it is not part of your building. Record exactly what he says. Try and do as much in writing as possible. Emails work. Ask them what standard codes they follow and ask them to cite the sections of the code they are basing their decision on. Then appeal his decision. Tell the guy you mean no disrespect, but that you disagree with his decision and want to appeal it. They should have a process to do that. Chances are that his boss will not support his decision. Unless everything used in your county is required to be UL approved (very unlikely), I think his decision will be overturned. 7 engineers in the state who can apply a stamp are inadequate to cover all of WA state! Just make sure you are decent about it. People become irrational when they feel attacked. If they push back you need to remind them that you are suffering from loss of use due to what you believe is an arbitrary decision. Do you know any lawyers in the area? If you can, you want to copy a lawyer on all of your correspondence. The lawyer doesn't need to do anything typically if you follow the appeals process. But including legal counsel raises the bar significantly on their part. Tell the lawyer you want to copy them in case they are needed. Etc. When things get sticky for the inspectors, and you have legit arguments, they will typically back off. Getting legal counsel involved is incredibly sticky since they have to get "their" legal counsel involved as well, and that costs $$, it sparks internal meetings. Lots of paperwork, etc. Suddenly you turn into a plague on the department. I do industrial integration and have been doing it since 2003. I have LinuxCNC machines running in plants everyday. But I'm in Indiana. Dave On 7/28/2021 3:14 PM, Ralph Stirling wrote: I'm in a bind now. I just had the electrical wiring I put into my garage shop inspected. The WA state inspector liked my wiring fine, but balked at the non-UL-listed CNC mill (the main point to my whole garage shop project). He insists it get stamped by one of the *seven* official "approved engineers" for the state of WA before he can sign off on my electric. I suspect that the field approval would cost considerably more than my entire mill (1998 vintage French 5hp spindle, 300x200x300mm travels, $5K). Didn't matter to him that the new VFD is listed. Any other US-based, especially WA-based LinuxCNC retrofitters faced this problem successfully? Thanks, -- Ralph ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] electrical inspection pain
Is the mill hard-wired or powered with a plug into a wall outlet? If the mill plugs in then remove the power cord and place a plastic tarp over the mill and have it re-inspected. The inspector is not able to comment on what you might use the outlet for in the future. If he asks, tell him you are thinking of buying a Tesla Model 3 and want need an outlet to plug in a 100 amp charger. If the mill is hardwired then he has a point. On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 12:17 PM Ralph Stirling < ralph.stirl...@wallawalla.edu> wrote: > I'm in a bind now. I just had the electrical wiring I put > into my garage shop inspected. The WA state inspector > liked my wiring fine, but balked at the non-UL-listed > CNC mill (the main point to my whole garage shop project). > He insists it get stamped by one of the *seven* official > "approved engineers" for the state of WA before he can > sign off on my electric. I suspect that the field approval > would cost considerably more than my entire mill (1998 > vintage French 5hp spindle, 300x200x300mm travels, > $5K). Didn't matter to him that the new VFD is listed. > > Any other US-based, especially WA-based LinuxCNC > retrofitters faced this problem successfully? > > Thanks, > -- Ralph > > ___ > Emc-users mailing list > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users > -- Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] electrical inspection pain
On 7/28/21 2:14 PM, Ralph Stirling wrote: I'm in a bind now. I just had the electrical wiring I put into my garage shop inspected. The WA state inspector liked my wiring fine, but balked at the non-UL-listed CNC mill (the main point to my whole garage shop project). He insists it get stamped by one of the *seven* official "approved engineers" for the state of WA before he can sign off on my electric. I suspect that the field approval would cost considerably more than my entire mill (1998 vintage French 5hp spindle, 300x200x300mm travels, $5K). Didn't matter to him that the new VFD is listed. Any other US-based, especially WA-based LinuxCNC retrofitters faced this problem successfully? Thanks, -- Ralph Is it hard wired? Maybe if it is on an extension cord it will pass? Put wheels under it and say it is a temp? Does the machine itself have a CE rating instead of UL? Ed. ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
[Emc-users] electrical inspection pain
I'm in a bind now. I just had the electrical wiring I put into my garage shop inspected. The WA state inspector liked my wiring fine, but balked at the non-UL-listed CNC mill (the main point to my whole garage shop project). He insists it get stamped by one of the *seven* official "approved engineers" for the state of WA before he can sign off on my electric. I suspect that the field approval would cost considerably more than my entire mill (1998 vintage French 5hp spindle, 300x200x300mm travels, $5K). Didn't matter to him that the new VFD is listed. Any other US-based, especially WA-based LinuxCNC retrofitters faced this problem successfully? Thanks, -- Ralph ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
