Re: [Emc-users] rotary table .... has anyone tried this?

2013-11-03 Thread dave
On Sun, 2013-11-03 at 06:28 -0500, Mark Wendt wrote:
> Only issue I can see here in this configuration is with tensioning both
> idlers.  If the motor is spinning in either direction, one idler is always
> going to be tightening the belt, and the other is going to try to be
> loosening due to driving forces acting on the idler from the belt and the
> smaller pinion gear acting on the larger gear.
> 
> How does one account for that, ensuring the belt stays in tension?
> 
> Mark
> 
Idler on the lower loop (in the diagram) >

Dave
> 
> On Sat, Nov 2, 2013 at 1:19 PM, Tomaz T.  wrote:
> 
> > Dave,
> > Tomaz's picture was interesting
> > if 2 idlers are used
> > the opposing tension is kinda anit-backlash
> > and I'd try mounting encoder on one of the 2 tensed gears
> > ( if you couldnt mount on axis proper, requiring thru hole )
> > regards
> > TomP
> >
> >
> > I think there should be something in between two pulleys, because it would
> > be difficult to match belt length just right.  That also means sacrificing
> > trough hole...
> >
> > Could this work?:
> > http://picpaste.com/pics/Gearing_02-qYmummoI.1383412496.jpg
> >
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Re: [Emc-users] rotary table .... has anyone tried this?

2013-11-03 Thread Marius Liebenberg
I would not use a spring tensioner but rather tension the belt to a 
permanent fixed tension. Just check it on a regular basis. My experience 
with spring tensioners is that they will produce backlash or movement 
because they can.
A good belt will have no stretch or very little over the short distance 
that we talk about here.

On 2013/11/03 01:28 PM, Mark Wendt wrote:
> Only issue I can see here in this configuration is with tensioning both
> idlers.  If the motor is spinning in either direction, one idler is always
> going to be tightening the belt, and the other is going to try to be
> loosening due to driving forces acting on the idler from the belt and the
> smaller pinion gear acting on the larger gear.
>
> How does one account for that, ensuring the belt stays in tension?
>
> Mark
>
>
> On Sat, Nov 2, 2013 at 1:19 PM, Tomaz T.  wrote:
>
>> Dave,
>> Tomaz's picture was interesting
>> if 2 idlers are used
>> the opposing tension is kinda anit-backlash
>> and I'd try mounting encoder on one of the 2 tensed gears
>> ( if you couldnt mount on axis proper, requiring thru hole )
>> regards
>> TomP
>>
>>
>> I think there should be something in between two pulleys, because it would
>> be difficult to match belt length just right.  That also means sacrificing
>> trough hole...
>>
>> Could this work?:
>> http://picpaste.com/pics/Gearing_02-qYmummoI.1383412496.jpg
>>
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Re: [Emc-users] rotary table .... has anyone tried this?

2013-11-03 Thread Mark Wendt
Only issue I can see here in this configuration is with tensioning both
idlers.  If the motor is spinning in either direction, one idler is always
going to be tightening the belt, and the other is going to try to be
loosening due to driving forces acting on the idler from the belt and the
smaller pinion gear acting on the larger gear.

How does one account for that, ensuring the belt stays in tension?

Mark


On Sat, Nov 2, 2013 at 1:19 PM, Tomaz T.  wrote:

> Dave,
> Tomaz's picture was interesting
> if 2 idlers are used
> the opposing tension is kinda anit-backlash
> and I'd try mounting encoder on one of the 2 tensed gears
> ( if you couldnt mount on axis proper, requiring thru hole )
> regards
> TomP
>
>
> I think there should be something in between two pulleys, because it would
> be difficult to match belt length just right.  That also means sacrificing
> trough hole...
>
> Could this work?:
> http://picpaste.com/pics/Gearing_02-qYmummoI.1383412496.jpg
>
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Re: [Emc-users] rotary table .... has anyone tried this?

2013-11-02 Thread Tomaz T .
Dave,
Tomaz's picture was interesting
if 2 idlers are used
the opposing tension is kinda anit-backlash
and I'd try mounting encoder on one of the 2 tensed gears
( if you couldnt mount on axis proper, requiring thru hole )
regards
TomP


I think there should be something in between two pulleys, because it would be 
difficult to match belt length just right.  That also means sacrificing trough 
hole...

Could this work?:
http://picpaste.com/pics/Gearing_02-qYmummoI.1383412496.jpg 
  
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Re: [Emc-users] rotary table .... has anyone tried this?

2013-11-02 Thread TJoseph Powderly

On 11/02/2013 11:13 AM, dave wrote:

On Sat, 2013-11-02 at 09:19 +, Steve Blackmore wrote:

On Fri, 01 Nov 2013 08:22:26 -0700, you wrote:


Hi all,

I've often wondered how well a rotary table would work if driven by a
reasonably stiff timing belt. Say 1" urethane with steel fibers.
Gearing would be approx 5:1 and then a reducer if necessary to couple to
the servo motor. Encoder would be mounted on an idler wheel driven by
the 1" belt. I use a similar encoder setup on the Z axis of my mill and
it seems to give rather good control at ~ 100K counts/inch. ;-)

Has anyone tried this or something similar and what were the results.
Stiff enough? Accurate enough? Of course everyone's definition of
adequate is different but was it good enough to be usable?



... snip

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Dave,
Tomaz's picture was interesting
if 2 idlers are used
the opposing tension is kinda anit-backlash
and I'd try mounting encoder on one of the 2 tensed gears
( if you couldnt mount on axis proper, requiring thru hole )
regards
TomP
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Re: [Emc-users] rotary table .... has anyone tried this?

2013-11-02 Thread dave
On Sat, 2013-11-02 at 09:19 +, Steve Blackmore wrote:
> On Fri, 01 Nov 2013 08:22:26 -0700, you wrote:
> 
> >Hi all,
> >
> >I've often wondered how well a rotary table would work if driven by a
> >reasonably stiff timing belt. Say 1" urethane with steel fibers. 
> >Gearing would be approx 5:1 and then a reducer if necessary to couple to
> >the servo motor. Encoder would be mounted on an idler wheel driven by
> >the 1" belt. I use a similar encoder setup on the Z axis of my mill and
> >it seems to give rather good control at ~ 100K counts/inch. ;-)
> >
> >Has anyone tried this or something similar and what were the results. 
> >Stiff enough? Accurate enough? Of course everyone's definition of
> >adequate is different but was it good enough to be usable?
> 
> Timing belts will work accuracy wise on positioning, but stopping
> cutting forces being directly passed back to the drive is a problem.
> 
> That's why worm and pinion type gearing is used, and you have to be
> careful with that. I did some development work using worm and pinion
> gearboxes and under 30:1 it was possible to back drive the input shaft.
> Over that they were self locking. 
> 
> Steve Blackmore
> --
Thanks Steve. That was the information I was looking for. My application
has pretty light loads so it might still work but there are no
guarantees. 

Andy .. so why use a fancy resolver unless you really need the
ruggedness? It is so easy to just attach a high res encoder to
linuxcnc. :-)

I appreciate all the feedback and discussion. 

Dave
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] rotary table .... has anyone tried this?

2013-11-02 Thread Tomaz T .
>> are there any major advantages over encoders in this case of installation?
>
> If you can sample for long enough your resolution is infinite. (or, at
> least, better than your ADC)
>
> So, 16 bits of position information is easy and you can have a lot more.
>
> Plus all the other resolver advantages (they work when full of
> coolant, you can't break them) and disadvantages (awkward to
> interface, horribly expensive)
>
> The Tamagawa web site is very proud of the fact that they have a
> design that can be wound by machine rather than by hand.
>

I was thinking of installing encoder on final stage of gearing instead on beck 
of servo, if there would be any benefits concerning accuracy/backlash.  
   
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Re: [Emc-users] rotary table .... has anyone tried this?

2013-11-02 Thread Steve Blackmore
On Fri, 01 Nov 2013 08:22:26 -0700, you wrote:

>Hi all,
>
>I've often wondered how well a rotary table would work if driven by a
>reasonably stiff timing belt. Say 1" urethane with steel fibers. 
>Gearing would be approx 5:1 and then a reducer if necessary to couple to
>the servo motor. Encoder would be mounted on an idler wheel driven by
>the 1" belt. I use a similar encoder setup on the Z axis of my mill and
>it seems to give rather good control at ~ 100K counts/inch. ;-)
>
>Has anyone tried this or something similar and what were the results. 
>Stiff enough? Accurate enough? Of course everyone's definition of
>adequate is different but was it good enough to be usable?

Timing belts will work accuracy wise on positioning, but stopping
cutting forces being directly passed back to the drive is a problem.

That's why worm and pinion type gearing is used, and you have to be
careful with that. I did some development work using worm and pinion
gearboxes and under 30:1 it was possible to back drive the input shaft.
Over that they were self locking. 

Steve Blackmore
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Re: [Emc-users] rotary table .... has anyone tried this?

2013-11-01 Thread Gregg Eshelman
On 11/1/2013 9:22 AM, dave wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I've often wondered how well a rotary table would work if driven by a
> reasonably stiff timing belt. Say 1" urethane with steel fibers.
> Gearing would be approx 5:1 and then a reducer if necessary to couple to
> the servo motor. Encoder would be mounted on an idler wheel driven by
> the 1" belt. I use a similar encoder setup on the Z axis of my mill and
> it seems to give rather good control at ~ 100K counts/inch. ;-)

You'd need a shield or cover to keep chips from getting between the belt 
and pulleys, but other than that it should work. Cogged belts have been 
used on some heavy equipment and precision drives on milling machines.


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Re: [Emc-users] rotary table .... has anyone tried this?

2013-11-01 Thread andy pugh
On 1 November 2013 22:00, Tomaz T.  wrote:

> are there any major advantages over encoders in this case of installation?

If you can sample for long enough your resolution is infinite. (or, at
least, better than your ADC)

So, 16 bits of position information is easy and you can have a lot more.

Plus all the other resolver advantages (they work when full of
coolant, you can't break them) and disadvantages (awkward to
interface, horribly expensive)

The Tamagawa web site is very proud of the fact that they have a
design that can be wound by machine rather than by hand.

-- 
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http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto

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Re: [Emc-users] rotary table .... has anyone tried this?

2013-11-01 Thread Tomaz T .
> There are lots of resolvers on eBay. But I am not keen to look up the
> specs of every one to figure out if they are multi-pole.
>
are there any major advantages over encoders in this case of installation?  
  
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Re: [Emc-users] rotary table .... has anyone tried this?

2013-11-01 Thread andy pugh
On 1 November 2013 19:39, Tomaz T.  wrote:
>> But, with a nice multi-pole resolver directly coupled to the table,
>> none of those would matter.
>>
> can you suggest any?

There are lots of resolvers on eBay. But I am not keen to look up the
specs of every one to figure out if they are multi-pole.

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Re: [Emc-users] rotary table .... has anyone tried this?

2013-11-01 Thread Tomaz T .
> But, with a nice multi-pole resolver directly coupled to the table,
> none of those would matter.
>
can you suggest any?  
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Re: [Emc-users] rotary table .... has anyone tried this?

2013-11-01 Thread andy pugh
On 1 November 2013 19:02, Dave Caroline  wrote:

> small gears to large gear (involute error)
> basic belt accuracy or not (although this is divided and reduced)
> belt to belt timing pulley backlash

But, with a nice multi-pole resolver directly coupled to the table,
none of those would matter.

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Re: [Emc-users] rotary table .... has anyone tried this?

2013-11-01 Thread Glenn Edwards
Interesting idea- kind of a planetary reducer with a belt.  But be aware
that one does not incorporate *spring* tensioners in multi-directional
systems.

Best regards,
-- --
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gl...@rapidconverting.com
www.rapidgasket.com


On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 11:45 AM, Tomaz T.  wrote:

> This could be solution to gain gearing ratio in combination with timing
> belt...
>
> Where would you place tensioner(s) to get rid of backlash ... ?
>
> http://picpaste.com/pics/Gearing_01-X1NbZKYn.1383331283.jpg
>
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Re: [Emc-users] rotary table .... has anyone tried this?

2013-11-01 Thread Dave Caroline
On 01/11/2013, Tomaz T.  wrote:
> This could be solution to gain gearing ratio in combination with timing
> belt...
>
> Where would you place tensioner(s) to get rid of backlash ... ?
>
> http://picpaste.com/pics/Gearing_01-X1NbZKYn.1383331283.jpg   

I am inclined to say now you have three problems with that arrangement

small gears to large gear (involute error)
basic belt accuracy or not (although this is divided and reduced)
belt to belt timing pulley backlash

Your backlash of the small gears can be adjusted with an idler on the
timing belt between the two larger timing pulleys

Dave Caroline

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Re: [Emc-users] rotary table .... has anyone tried this?

2013-11-01 Thread Tomaz T .
This could be solution to gain gearing ratio in combination with timing belt...

Where would you place tensioner(s) to get rid of backlash ... ?

http://picpaste.com/pics/Gearing_01-X1NbZKYn.1383331283.jpg 
  
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Re: [Emc-users] rotary table .... has anyone tried this?

2013-11-01 Thread Dave Caroline
I would like someone to characterize belt error (I dont have any belt system)
I did some googling when the original rotary thread started for
toothed belt accuracy and didnt find anything sensible as timing belts
are generally designed to transmit power (lots of information on the
power transmission abilities).

Dave Caroline

On 01/11/2013, Kirk Wallace  wrote:
> On 11/01/2013 08:22 AM, dave wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I've often wondered how well a rotary table would work if driven by a
>> reasonably stiff timing belt. Say 1" urethane with steel fibers.
>> Gearing would be approx 5:1 and then a reducer if necessary to couple to
>> the servo motor. Encoder would be mounted on an idler wheel driven by
>> the 1" belt. I use a similar encoder setup on the Z axis of my mill and
>> it seems to give rather good control at ~ 100K counts/inch. ;-)
>>
>> Has anyone tried this or something similar and what were the results.
>> Stiff enough? Accurate enough? Of course everyone's definition of
>> adequate is different but was it good enough to be usable?
>>
>> Many thanks in advance.
>>
>> Dave
>
> I haven't tried it, but this belt arrangement comes to mind:
> http://www.rockcliffcnc.com/SiteImages/CNC%20ROUTER%20BELT%20DRIVE%20ROCKCLIFF.jpg
>
> The picture above is similar to the mechanism I'm thinking of, which
> uses a rack with the form of the belt and the span between the pinion
> and the idler wheels is closed until they touch, or nearly so. The
> amount of belt involved is between where each idler touches the rack
> (with the belt in between) and where it touches the pinion. There should
> be very little flex. This should work as well with a pulley replacing
> the rack.
>
> --
> Kirk Wallace
> http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
> http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/
>
> --
> Android is increasing in popularity, but the open development platform that
> developers love is also attractive to malware creators. Download this white
> paper to learn more about secure code signing practices that can help keep
> Android apps secure.
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Re: [Emc-users] rotary table .... has anyone tried this?

2013-11-01 Thread Kirk Wallace
On 11/01/2013 08:22 AM, dave wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I've often wondered how well a rotary table would work if driven by a
> reasonably stiff timing belt. Say 1" urethane with steel fibers.
> Gearing would be approx 5:1 and then a reducer if necessary to couple to
> the servo motor. Encoder would be mounted on an idler wheel driven by
> the 1" belt. I use a similar encoder setup on the Z axis of my mill and
> it seems to give rather good control at ~ 100K counts/inch. ;-)
>
> Has anyone tried this or something similar and what were the results.
> Stiff enough? Accurate enough? Of course everyone's definition of
> adequate is different but was it good enough to be usable?
>
> Many thanks in advance.
>
> Dave

I haven't tried it, but this belt arrangement comes to mind:
http://www.rockcliffcnc.com/SiteImages/CNC%20ROUTER%20BELT%20DRIVE%20ROCKCLIFF.jpg

The picture above is similar to the mechanism I'm thinking of, which 
uses a rack with the form of the belt and the span between the pinion 
and the idler wheels is closed until they touch, or nearly so. The 
amount of belt involved is between where each idler touches the rack 
(with the belt in between) and where it touches the pinion. There should 
be very little flex. This should work as well with a pulley replacing 
the rack.

-- 
Kirk Wallace
http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/

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paper to learn more about secure code signing practices that can help keep
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[Emc-users] rotary table .... has anyone tried this?

2013-11-01 Thread dave
Hi all,

I've often wondered how well a rotary table would work if driven by a
reasonably stiff timing belt. Say 1" urethane with steel fibers. 
Gearing would be approx 5:1 and then a reducer if necessary to couple to
the servo motor. Encoder would be mounted on an idler wheel driven by
the 1" belt. I use a similar encoder setup on the Z axis of my mill and
it seems to give rather good control at ~ 100K counts/inch. ;-)

Has anyone tried this or something similar and what were the results. 
Stiff enough? Accurate enough? Of course everyone's definition of
adequate is different but was it good enough to be usable?

Many thanks in advance. 

Dave


--
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developers love is also attractive to malware creators. Download this white
paper to learn more about secure code signing practices that can help keep
Android apps secure.
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