Re: [Emc-users] rotary table re-engineeering
Gentlemen, how come that some messages have appeared twice lately, sent at the same time? For instance, this one: Peter Am 24.01.2022 um 16:44 schrieb Jon Elson: I had a Palmgren rotary table with XY linear slides, similar to the one in recent pictures. The handles were different, otherwise I'd say mine was identical. But, I found the XY slides to be VERY floppy, it made machining very difficult. It caused terrible chatter and poor finishes. I was not able to tighten anything up to make it mire rigid. Once I got CNC running, I got rid of it. Jon ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] rotary table re-engineeering
I had a Palmgren rotary table with XY linear slides, similar to the one in recent pictures. The handles were different, otherwise I'd say mine was identical. But, I found the XY slides to be VERY floppy, it made machining very difficult. It caused terrible chatter and poor finishes. I was not able to tighten anything up to make it mire rigid. Once I got CNC running, I got rid of it. Jon ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] rotary table re-engineeering
Knight Foundry in Sutter Creek, California still does iron casting. https://knightfoundry.com/ On Sunday, January 23, 2022, 12:27:00 PM MST, Matthew Herd wrote: Depending on size, I’d consider some “durabar” or similar continuously cast iron bar. I made a compound for my atlas lathe and several other items from it. A bit hard on tools but the parts have come out great. I prefer to use a face mill to machine the flat surfaces and then carbide tooling to finish it. If you have a three axis CNC mill it might not be much more time and maybe less money than a casting. I usually buy it from speedymetals.com. I recently did the foundry route for a large (300) batch of aluminum parts and the price was right but it took a long time and required I make up a pattern board with 10 printed patterns per mold. Still haven’t finished machining all 300 … but the castings came out nicely. I used cattail foundry near me in PA. I think it depends on the size and complexity of the part whether it’s worth getting it cast. ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] rotary table re-engineeering
> > From: andy pugh [mailto:bodge...@gmail.com] > > > > But, making patterns and having parts cast is _fun_ :-) > > > > -- > > atp > > Oh and here's the core box. First crack at the core using the instructions from Dave Gingery's building a lathe from scrap series. Very fine sand, 20 Table Spoons plus 2 Table Spoons white flour; shaken, not stirred Mr. Bond. Then 10:1 ratio Molasses and water added a little at a time and worked with a spoon. Was thinking a miniature sand muller would be great for this. Kept adding liquid until it was a slightly damp version of green sand with a bit of strength. Packed into the core box as tight as I could without any re-enforcement wires. Flipped over onto the aluminum plate and the box carefully separated. Next placed in small table top oven at 350F for 1 hour. Came out hard. Yahoo. It will be flipped over and inserted into the green sand mold to roughly create the T-Slots once I make a couple more. ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] rotary table re-engineeering
On Sun, 23 Jan 2022 at 23:30, fxkl47BF--- via Emc-users wrote: > It looks like Palmgren had a passel of those. > https://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/2459/16973.pdf Page 14 shows a base design that could be copied. -- atp "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and lunatics." — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] rotary table re-engineeering
On Sun, 23 Jan 2022, John Figie wrote: > While looking at your photos I realized that I could have almost the same > rotary table. It was recently given to me. Mine is a craftsman and is > mounted on an x-y cross slide. but some of the castings look the same to me > in the picture. Yours has a larger diameter wheel for rotary motion with 3' > graduations while mine has 25' I have not used it yet and so far the only > project that I was considering required it to be mounted vertically instead > of horizontally. I really don't think I need the x-y cross slide and that > part of the table seems kind of weak and makes the table only usable for > light duty work in my opinion. So I like Andy's idea of mounting it by the > dovetail. In my case I think I would just mill the dovetail in a steel > plate. I happen to have a 6" x 6" x 1.25" chunk. Then I would use it with > an angle plate. > > As for making the dovetail longer and making longer gibs, I think that > should be easy because the gibs in my cross slides are not tapered. > > https://photos.app.goo.gl/LKqYyhrobTuNMJir6 > > John Figie It looks like Palmgren had a passel of those. https://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/2459/16973.pdf ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] rotary table re-engineeering
I suspect that a mini-mill would have issues with an 8-inch rotary table. -Original Message- From: andy pugh Sent: January 23, 2022 2:39 PM To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) Subject: Re: [Emc-users] rotary table re-engineeering On Sun, 23 Jan 2022 at 18:59, Chris Albertson wrote: > But this is for a "*mini*-mill" you do NOT need cast iron parts. He said it was a "small mill". Many would consider a Bridgeport to be a small mill. I certainly consider my Harrison to be small, but it weighs nearly a ton. But, making patterns and having parts cast is _fun_ :-) -- atp "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and lunatics." — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] rotary table re-engineeering
Known good part obscures the problem of shrinkage unless you want them to take your known good and scale it for shrinkage which they will do at $$/hr. ;-) Working from their shrink % will allow you to do the sizing and that make it simple for them. A foundry 100 mi or so from me and out in the boonies was using house insulation foam for patterns but that generated a lot of plain carbon smoke so I don't know if they do that anymore. Good luck with your part however you do it. Dave On 1/23/22 10:56 AM, Chris Albertson wrote: What you give a foundry is typically the part you want, a pattern. They can advise on the limits of what they can do. For example there is a minimum and maxim thickness and overall size. They can also tell you how much the iron will shrink so you can adjust the pattern Then for you own good you would want to make the pattern so as to minimize the amount of machine work. This also saves you money as you pay the foundry by the pound. So make the parrn have all the curves and shape you need. Wrapping is another issue. if you make it too thin or thick the result will not match the pattern. Tranditionally, patterns where made of wood or maybe wood with bondo over it and sanded and finished sooth. But today you would 3D print the pattern and give them a plastic copy of the part you want. They pack it in sand and make a mold from your pattern. Some can do a process that is like "lost wax" so then you print using a kind of plastic that the melted metal burns up But this is for a "*mini*-mill" you do NOT need cast iron parts. The cutting force is very small. Why not make your adaptor out of plastic? Platic seems like the wrong material because "real mills" are made of steel. I have a CNC converted Mini mill and the conversion parts are printed plastic.It you design, knowing the strength of that material you can do well. I can not measure flex with a dial indcator Plastic is like designing a part with glass. It is very strong and rigid until it shatters. But look at the size of the spindle motor and drive gears on a mini mill. You would shear the teeth off the drive gears before generating enough force to break a plastic adaptor shim. In any case, then after AFTER you know the plastic part works, then you give the foundry the known-to-work part to use as a pattern and they make you one in metal. I've dealt with some manufacturers and while you used to have to ship a pattern, now days you can email them the design file and they can print the pattern and do the design check that looks for violation of thier min and max thickness. There are also places that can do a 3D print in metals like aluminum of even stainless steel. But this is not yet cheap. On Sat, Jan 22, 2022 at 6:26 PM fxkl47BF--- via Emc-users < emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote: Yes, if you are near Windy Hill, then I understand that they do a lot of one-offs for vehicle restorers etc. It's certainly worth considering. OK So from the photos in the ad what would I want to have made? A big rectangle? The only "true" surfaces on the back are the dovetails. I think that's a bit of a wimpy mount. If I disassemble it I can tell if the unfinished surfaces beside the dovetails are thick enough to drill for additional supports. Or is that a lot of overkill. Just attach to the dovetails and be done with it. I have a 3D printer. This is go'n to to be fun :) ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] rotary table re-engineeering
On Sun, 23 Jan 2022, andy pugh wrote: > On Sun, 23 Jan 2022 at 18:59, Chris Albertson > wrote: > >> But this is for a "*mini*-mill" you do NOT need cast iron parts. > > He said it was a "small mill". Many would consider a Bridgeport to be > a small mill. I certainly consider my Harrison to be small, but it > weighs nearly a ton. > > But, making patterns and having parts cast is _fun_ :-) I have a "largish" mini-mill - PM25MV. ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] rotary table re-engineeering
While looking at your photos I realized that I could have almost the same rotary table. It was recently given to me. Mine is a craftsman and is mounted on an x-y cross slide. but some of the castings look the same to me in the picture. Yours has a larger diameter wheel for rotary motion with 3' graduations while mine has 25' I have not used it yet and so far the only project that I was considering required it to be mounted vertically instead of horizontally. I really don't think I need the x-y cross slide and that part of the table seems kind of weak and makes the table only usable for light duty work in my opinion. So I like Andy's idea of mounting it by the dovetail. In my case I think I would just mill the dovetail in a steel plate. I happen to have a 6" x 6" x 1.25" chunk. Then I would use it with an angle plate. As for making the dovetail longer and making longer gibs, I think that should be easy because the gibs in my cross slides are not tapered. https://photos.app.goo.gl/LKqYyhrobTuNMJir6 John Figie > > ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] rotary table re-engineeering
On Sun, 23 Jan 2022 at 18:59, Chris Albertson wrote: > But this is for a "*mini*-mill" you do NOT need cast iron parts. He said it was a "small mill". Many would consider a Bridgeport to be a small mill. I certainly consider my Harrison to be small, but it weighs nearly a ton. But, making patterns and having parts cast is _fun_ :-) -- atp "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and lunatics." — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] rotary table re-engineeering
Depending on size, I’d consider some “durabar” or similar continuously cast iron bar. I made a compound for my atlas lathe and several other items from it. A bit hard on tools but the parts have come out great. I prefer to use a face mill to machine the flat surfaces and then carbide tooling to finish it. If you have a three axis CNC mill it might not be much more time and maybe less money than a casting. I usually buy it from speedymetals.com. I recently did the foundry route for a large (300) batch of aluminum parts and the price was right but it took a long time and required I make up a pattern board with 10 printed patterns per mold. Still haven’t finished machining all 300 … but the castings came out nicely. I used cattail foundry near me in PA. I think it depends on the size and complexity of the part whether it’s worth getting it cast. Matt > On Jan 23, 2022, at 1:59 PM, Chris Albertson > wrote: > > What you give a foundry is typically the part you want, a pattern. They > can advise on the limits of what they can do. For example there is a > minimum and maxim thickness and overall size. > > They can also tell you how much the iron will shrink so you can adjust the > pattern > > Then for you own good you would want to make the pattern so as to minimize > the amount of machine work. This also saves you money as you pay the > foundry by the pound. So make the parrn have all the curves and shape you > need. > > Wrapping is another issue. if you make it too thin or thick the result > will not match the pattern. > > Tranditionally, patterns where made of wood or maybe wood with bondo over > it and sanded and finished sooth. But today you would 3D print the pattern > and give them a plastic copy of the part you want. They pack it in sand > and make a mold from your pattern. > > Some can do a process that is like "lost wax" so then you print using a > kind of plastic that the melted metal burns up > > But this is for a "*mini*-mill" you do NOT need cast iron parts. The > cutting force is very small. Why not make your adaptor out of plastic? > Platic seems like the wrong material because "real mills" are made of > steel. I have a CNC converted Mini mill and the conversion parts are > printed plastic.It you design, knowing the strength of that material > you can do well. I can not measure flex with a dial indcator > Plastic is like designing a part with glass. It is very strong and rigid > until it shatters. But look at the size of the spindle motor and drive > gears on a mini mill. You would shear the teeth off the drive gears > before generating enough force to break a plastic adaptor shim. > > In any case, then after AFTER you know the plastic part works, then you > give the foundry the known-to-work part to use as a pattern and they make > you one in metal. > > I've dealt with some manufacturers and while you used to have to ship a > pattern, now days you can email them the design file and they can print the > pattern and do the design check that looks for violation of thier min and > max thickness. > > There are also places that can do a 3D print in metals like aluminum of > even stainless steel. But this is not yet cheap. > > On Sat, Jan 22, 2022 at 6:26 PM fxkl47BF--- via Emc-users < > emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote: > >>> Yes, if you are near Windy Hill, then I understand that they do a lot >>> of one-offs for vehicle restorers etc. >>> >>> It's certainly worth considering. >> >> OK >> So from the photos in the ad what would I want to have made? >> A big rectangle? >> The only "true" surfaces on the back are the dovetails. >> I think that's a bit of a wimpy mount. >> If I disassemble it I can tell if the unfinished surfaces beside the >> dovetails are thick enough to drill for additional supports. >> Or is that a lot of overkill. >> Just attach to the dovetails and be done with it. >> I have a 3D printer. >> This is go'n to to be fun :) >> >> >> >> >> ___ >> Emc-users mailing list >> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users >> > > > -- > > Chris Albertson > Redondo Beach, California > > ___ > Emc-users mailing list > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] rotary table re-engineeering
What you give a foundry is typically the part you want, a pattern. They can advise on the limits of what they can do. For example there is a minimum and maxim thickness and overall size. They can also tell you how much the iron will shrink so you can adjust the pattern Then for you own good you would want to make the pattern so as to minimize the amount of machine work. This also saves you money as you pay the foundry by the pound. So make the parrn have all the curves and shape you need. Wrapping is another issue. if you make it too thin or thick the result will not match the pattern. Tranditionally, patterns where made of wood or maybe wood with bondo over it and sanded and finished sooth. But today you would 3D print the pattern and give them a plastic copy of the part you want. They pack it in sand and make a mold from your pattern. Some can do a process that is like "lost wax" so then you print using a kind of plastic that the melted metal burns up But this is for a "*mini*-mill" you do NOT need cast iron parts. The cutting force is very small. Why not make your adaptor out of plastic? Platic seems like the wrong material because "real mills" are made of steel. I have a CNC converted Mini mill and the conversion parts are printed plastic.It you design, knowing the strength of that material you can do well. I can not measure flex with a dial indcator Plastic is like designing a part with glass. It is very strong and rigid until it shatters. But look at the size of the spindle motor and drive gears on a mini mill. You would shear the teeth off the drive gears before generating enough force to break a plastic adaptor shim. In any case, then after AFTER you know the plastic part works, then you give the foundry the known-to-work part to use as a pattern and they make you one in metal. I've dealt with some manufacturers and while you used to have to ship a pattern, now days you can email them the design file and they can print the pattern and do the design check that looks for violation of thier min and max thickness. There are also places that can do a 3D print in metals like aluminum of even stainless steel. But this is not yet cheap. On Sat, Jan 22, 2022 at 6:26 PM fxkl47BF--- via Emc-users < emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote: > > Yes, if you are near Windy Hill, then I understand that they do a lot > > of one-offs for vehicle restorers etc. > > > > It's certainly worth considering. > > OK > So from the photos in the ad what would I want to have made? > A big rectangle? > The only "true" surfaces on the back are the dovetails. > I think that's a bit of a wimpy mount. > If I disassemble it I can tell if the unfinished surfaces beside the > dovetails are thick enough to drill for additional supports. > Or is that a lot of overkill. > Just attach to the dovetails and be done with it. > I have a 3D printer. > This is go'n to to be fun :) > > > > > ___ > Emc-users mailing list > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users > -- Chris Albertson Redondo Beach, California ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] rotary table re-engineeering
On Sun, 23 Jan 2022 at 02:26, fxkl47BF--- via Emc-users wrote: > So from the photos in the ad what would I want to have made? > A big rectangle? Something stylish and in-keeping with the original, I would think. Certainly a block thick enough to keep the lowest point of the main casting clear of the table. Then a couple of "wings" for hold-down bolts to clamp it to the mill table. You need to decide whether you use 2 or 4 bolts. And think about access to the nuts or bolt heads. Then, because radiuses and fillets are "free" with printing and casting, you might as well add those. Maybe your own logo :-) Add extra metal where machining will be needed, and allow for shrinkage. > The only "true" surfaces on the back are the dovetails. > I think that's a bit of a wimpy mount. It was considered adequate in the original design. I think it would be fine. You could consider making the dovetail far longer, as you probably don't need the traverse ability. (But then you would have to make a new Gib rather than re-use the existing one) Measuring the dovetail angle is important, I have seen 60, 45 and 55 degree dovetails on machines that I have owned. -- atp "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and lunatics." — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] rotary table re-engineeering
> Yes, if you are near Windy Hill, then I understand that they do a lot > of one-offs for vehicle restorers etc. > > It's certainly worth considering. OK So from the photos in the ad what would I want to have made? A big rectangle? The only "true" surfaces on the back are the dovetails. I think that's a bit of a wimpy mount. If I disassemble it I can tell if the unfinished surfaces beside the dovetails are thick enough to drill for additional supports. Or is that a lot of overkill. Just attach to the dovetails and be done with it. I have a 3D printer. This is go'n to to be fun :) ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] rotary table re-engineeering
On Sat, 22 Jan 2022 at 18:53, fxkl47BF--- via Emc-users wrote: > Now just to get it shipped to southern US :) > Actually there is a foundry not to far from me, Windy Hill Foundry. Yes, if you are near Windy Hill, then I understand that they do a lot of one-offs for vehicle restorers etc. It's certainly worth considering. -- atp "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and lunatics." — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] rotary table re-engineeering
On Sat, 22 Jan 2022, andy pugh wrote: > On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 at 16:25, fxkl47BF--- via Emc-users > wrote: > >> Making a new dovetailed back plate was what I was leaning towards. >> Any suggestion for material for this? >> A big slab of cast iron would be nice but I imagine but too pricey. > > Well, I would 3D print a pattern and have it cast in iron. But I know > a foundry that is more than happy to do one-offs and charges ?10 / kg > for castings pretty much irrespective of design. > (https://ajd-foundries.business.site) > > If that isn't an option for you, then aluminium tends to come in most > cost effective per volume. That sounds just right. Now just to get it shipped to southern US :) Actually there is a foundry not to far from me, Windy Hill Foundry. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKHArSvqZlJrqB-F-AXOjgA ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] rotary table re-engineeering
On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 at 16:25, fxkl47BF--- via Emc-users wrote: > Making a new dovetailed back plate was what I was leaning towards. > Any suggestion for material for this? > A big slab of cast iron would be nice but I imagine but too pricey. Well, I would 3D print a pattern and have it cast in iron. But I know a foundry that is more than happy to do one-offs and charges £10 / kg for castings pretty much irrespective of design. (https://ajd-foundries.business.site) If that isn't an option for you, then aluminium tends to come in most cost effective per volume. -- atp "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and lunatics." — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] rotary table re-engineeering
On Fri, 21 Jan 2022, andy pugh wrote: > On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 at 15:15, fxkl47BF--- via Emc-users > wrote: > >> I recently acquired a Palmgren 800 rotary table for a faction of this cost. >> I would like to modify it to mount horizontally or vertically on a small >> mill. >> I'm open to suggestion before I start hacking. > > I think that I would look at making a fixture to mount it via the > dovetail, and retain the angle bracket for vertical use. > > I imagine that the intended use for it was on a horizontal mill. > > Do you intend to keep it manual, or motorise it? As the flier in the add shows it was made to mount on the toolpost of a lathe. Making a new dovetailed back plate was what I was leaning towards. Any suggestion for material for this? A big slab of cast iron would be nice but I imagine but too pricey. I have no plans to motorize it right now. ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] rotary table re-engineeering
On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 at 15:15, fxkl47BF--- via Emc-users wrote: > I recently acquired a Palmgren 800 rotary table for a faction of this cost. > I would like to modify it to mount horizontally or vertically on a small mill. > I'm open to suggestion before I start hacking. I think that I would look at making a fixture to mount it via the dovetail, and retain the angle bracket for vertical use. I imagine that the intended use for it was on a horizontal mill. Do you intend to keep it manual, or motorise it? -- atp "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and lunatics." — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912 ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
[Emc-users] rotary table re-engineeering
https://lostcreekmachine.com/product/lathe-attachment-rotary-indexing-8-model-800-w-vertical-feed-palmgren/ I recently acquired a Palmgren 800 rotary table for a faction of this cost. I would like to modify it to mount horizontally or vertically on a small mill. I'm open to suggestion before I start hacking. Thanks ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
