Re: [Emc-users] Homing of rotary axis
I had a thought about that and there is one BUT... I am going to use stepper motor to control the rotary axis and as far as i know there is only one way to create a closed loop system - EMC outputs PWM signal and receives encoder data and then there has to be PWM-to-step signal converter. Viesturs 2010/5/14 dave dengv...@charter.net: Maybe this is the place to use an absolute encoder? Just an off the wall thought. Dave On Fri, 2010-05-14 at 10:59 -0400, Cal Grandy wrote: You might consider homing the head prior to energizing the high pressure hoses. Only a sequence control. - Original Message - From: Viesturs Lacis viesturs.la...@gmail.com To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net Sent: Friday, May 14, 2010 7:35 Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Homing of rotary axis 2010/5/14 Andy Pugh a...@andypugh.fsnet.co.uk: On 14 May 2010 00:16, sa...@free.fr wrote: (Ian, your idea would work fine too, but he asked to minimise the amount of movement that his hoses are subjected to) Yes, the essence is that I do not want the head to tilt those 50 degrees (which is maximum tilt angle) every time i turn on the machine, because it puts a lot of stress to high-pressure tubing (water pressure reaches ~4000 bar). Ian, thank You for a suggestion on playing with HOME_OFFSET value for fine-tuning the home position. I find that in some cases it might be easier than adjusting the home switch itself. I think it need be nothing more complex than a semi-circular metal disc on the rear shaft extension of the motor and an optical slot detector. Yes, it seems like a pretty simple setup to me too, Thank You for an idea! Viesturs -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Homing of rotary axis
Viesturs Lācis wrote: I had a thought about that and there is one BUT... I am going to use stepper motor to control the rotary axis and as far as i know there is only one way to create a closed loop system - EMC outputs PWM signal and receives encoder data and then there has to be PWM-to-step signal converter. EMC can output whatever you want, it doesn't have to be PWM. The problem with closed loop and steppers is that the available torque of a stepper decreases with speed, so when the motor falls behind enough for PID to try to correct, it's already lost. The stepper has no extra torque to give in response to the faster command it gets, unlike a servo. Closed loop monitoring of a stepper position, using that for following error detection, is perfectly reasonable and can be done with EMC2, without a hardware PWM-to-step converter. - Steve -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Homing of rotary axis
On 15 May 2010 11:56, Viesturs Lācis viesturs.la...@gmail.com wrote: I had a thought about that and there is one BUT... I am going to use stepper motor to control the rotary axis and as far as i know there is only one way to create a closed loop system - EMC outputs PWM signal and receives encoder data and then there has to be PWM-to-step signal converter. There are people running closed-loop stepper systems. One way is to use a velocity-mode stepgen and to pass the output of the PID as a velocity request. It would also be possible to use a very slow (possibly integral-only) PID as an added-on offset to a position command. You can use an absolute encoder without needing to be closed-loop, though. You could use a constant term, calculated at boot time as an offset between current stepgen position and current position as measured by an encoder and just add that on to the position reguest before passing it to the stepgen. It would seem a waste to fit an absolute encoder and then to only use it for a millisecond a day though. You can use an absolute encoder without needing to b -- atp -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Homing of rotary axis
On May 15, 2010, at 9:24 AM, Andy Pugh wrote: There are people running closed-loop stepper systems. Really? I keep getting told you can't do it for various reasons. One way is to use a velocity-mode stepgen and to pass the output of the PID as a velocity request. It would also be possible to use a very slow (possibly integral-only) PID as an added-on offset to a position command. I would love to see someone's configuration files who has made a closed loop with steppers work. -Tom -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Homing of rotary axis
Viesturs Lācis wrote: I had a thought about that and there is one BUT... I am going to use stepper motor to control the rotary axis and as far as i know there is only one way to create a closed loop system - EMC outputs PWM signal and receives encoder data and then there has to be PWM-to-step signal converter. The Pico Systems Universal Stepper Controller is a board that generates step pulses. The default is to have it count the step pulses it sends out to keep EMC in sync with the steps. But, by flipping a switch, it can count encoder pulses instead, and report that back to EMC. This selection can be made on an axis-by-axis basis. You can also use a software encoder in EMC to read the encoder, but that eats up a lot of parallel port bits. But, you could do a 4-axis system with only two parallel ports this way, setting the data bits on the 2nd port to input mode. Jon -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Homing of rotary axis
Tom Easterday wrote: On May 15, 2010, at 9:24 AM, Andy Pugh wrote: There are people running closed-loop stepper systems. Really? I keep getting told you can't do it for various reasons. I would love to see someone's configuration files who has made a closed loop with steppers work. The Pico Systems Universal Stepper Controller is a sort of closed loop system all the time. The default method is to count the step pulses sent out. By flipping a switch for each axis, you can set it to read the encoder pulses, instead. So, in fact, EMC doesn't actually even KNOW whether it is physical closed-loop or electronic closed-loop! The only changes in the .ini file would be to change the INPUT_SCALE parameter to reflect the encoder resolution vs. the step resolution per user unit. See the configs file directory included in your EMC2 distro under univstep. Now, the reason you've been told you can't do that is because it doesn't PREVENT stalls. It WILL detect a stalled motor and cause a following error stop. It will also silently fix a single lost step here and there caused by setup time violations during direction reversals. Some machines suffer from this kind of problem. Jon -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Homing of rotary axis
2010/5/15 Stephen Wille Padnos spad...@sover.net: Viesturs Lācis wrote: I had a thought about that and there is one BUT... I am going to use stepper motor to control the rotary axis and as far as i know there is only one way to create a closed loop system - EMC outputs PWM signal and receives encoder data and then there has to be PWM-to-step signal converter. EMC can output whatever you want, it doesn't have to be PWM. The problem with closed loop and steppers is that the available torque of a stepper decreases with speed, so when the motor falls behind enough for PID to try to correct, it's already lost. The stepper has no extra torque to give in response to the faster command it gets, unlike a servo. Closed loop monitoring of a stepper position, using that for following error detection, is perfectly reasonable and can be done with EMC2, without a hardware PWM-to-step converter. Motors will be moving relatively slowly, so loss of torque in high speeds is not a problem. I expect that rotary axis will have to hold their existing position more than do any movement at all and steppers are better in holding their position than servos without a brake. 2010/5/15 Jon Elson el...@pico-systems.com: Tom Easterday wrote: On May 15, 2010, at 9:24 AM, Andy Pugh wrote: There are people running closed-loop stepper systems. Really? I keep getting told you can't do it for various reasons. I would love to see someone's configuration files who has made a closed loop with steppers work. The Pico Systems Universal Stepper Controller is a sort of closed loop system all the time. The default method is to count the step pulses sent out. By flipping a switch for each axis, you can set it to read the encoder pulses, instead. So, in fact, EMC doesn't actually even KNOW whether it is physical closed-loop or electronic closed-loop! The only changes in the .ini file would be to change the INPUT_SCALE parameter to reflect the encoder resolution vs. the step resolution per user unit. See the configs file directory included in your EMC2 distro under univstep. Now, the reason you've been told you can't do that is because it doesn't PREVENT stalls. It WILL detect a stalled motor and cause a following error stop. It will also silently fix a single lost step here and there caused by setup time violations during direction reversals. Some machines suffer from this kind of problem. Jon I (and seems like other EMC users as well) did not know that stepper motors are used in closed-loop systems. I will try to search for more information about that Pico Systems Universal Stepper controller. Thank You for sharing the information? Then I have one more question - what are the options to use servo motors and stepper motors together in one machine? I have 3 servos (2 on X axis and 1 on Y axis) and currently I am trying to control servo drives in step/dir mode, which does not seem very clever idea, besides movement of axis with old, DOS based control system is smoother (analog +10V/-10V signal is used) than EMC with step/dir mode performs. I want to add 3 stepper motors on Z, A and B axis respectively. I already have stepper drivers and motors, so i could save some money and as I mentioned - i believe that steppers on rotary axis are better. Viesturs -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Homing of rotary axis
Viesturs Lācis wrote: 2010/5/15 Stephen Wille Padnosspad...@sover.net: [snip] Motors will be moving relatively slowly, so loss of torque in high speeds is not a problem. I expect that rotary axis will have to hold their existing position more than do any movement at all and steppers are better in holding their position than servos without a brake. I guess I should have said that since a stepper never has more torque than when it's stopped, it will never have extra torque to catch up if it falls behind the expected position or speed. 2010/5/15 Jon Elsonel...@pico-systems.com: Tom Easterday wrote: On May 15, 2010, at 9:24 AM, Andy Pugh wrote: There are people running closed-loop stepper systems. Really? I keep getting told you can't do it for various reasons. I would love to see someone's configuration files who has made a closed loop with steppers work. The Pico Systems Universal Stepper Controller is a sort of closed loop system all the time. The default method is to count the step pulses sent out. By flipping a switch for each axis, you can set it to read the encoder pulses, instead. So, in fact, EMC doesn't actually even KNOW whether it is physical closed-loop or electronic closed-loop! The only changes in the .ini file would be to change the INPUT_SCALE parameter to reflect the encoder resolution vs. the step resolution per user unit. See the configs file directory included in your EMC2 distro under univstep. Now, the reason you've been told you can't do that is because it doesn't PREVENT stalls. It WILL detect a stalled motor and cause a following error stop. It will also silently fix a single lost step here and there caused by setup time violations during direction reversals. Some machines suffer from this kind of problem. Jon I (and seems like other EMC users as well) did not know that stepper motors are used in closed-loop systems. I will try to search for more information about that Pico Systems Universal Stepper controller. Thank You for sharing the information? It's not as common to use steppers in true closed loop systems, since they can't catch up once they fall behind. Using a stepper in a system that has feedback that is used only for following error detection is a different story, and is definitely do-able. Then I have one more question - what are the options to use servo motors and stepper motors together in one machine? You can use any kind of motor for any joint on the machine. You can also use more than one type of hardware, so for instance you could have a Pico Systems card on one parallel port, use a second parallel port directly, and use a PCI plug-in Mesa card, all at once. I have 3 servos (2 on X axis and 1 on Y axis) and currently I am trying to control servo drives in step/dir mode, which does not seem very clever idea, besides movement of axis with old, DOS based control system is smoother (analog +10V/-10V signal is used) than EMC with step/dir mode performs. I want to add 3 stepper motors on Z, A and B axis respectively. I already have stepper drivers and motors, so i could save some money and as I mentioned - i believe that steppers on rotary axis are better. Just mix and match them as you like, EMC doesn't care. - Steve -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Homing of rotary axis
Andy wrote... I think it would be a perfectly normal looking INI file. As for the switch arrangement, on the proposed stepper-motor arrangement I think it need be nothing more complex than a semi-circular metal disc on the rear shaft extension of the motor and an optical slot detector. (Ian, your idea would work fine too, but he asked to minimise the amount of movement that his hoses are subjected to) I understand your point about the hoses but, if you are thinking of using a central switch, wouldn't this give a different tripping point depending on which side of centre you approach it from? i.e if it were a slot in a disk, the opto would trip on one side of the slot when approaching from one side and the other side of the slot when approaching from the other direction Ian -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Homing of rotary axis
On 14 May 2010 08:08, Ian W. Wright watchma...@talktalk.net wrote: I understand your point about the hoses but, if you are thinking of using a central switch, wouldn't this give a different tripping point depending on which side of centre you approach it from? i.e if it were a slot in a disk, the opto would trip on one side of the slot when approaching from one side and the other side of the slot when approaching from the other direction The idea is to always use the same edge, and for home to always search in the same direction. You use a semi-circular disc or a 180 degree cam so that the system knows which initial direction to move in to find the homing area, then once it has driven off the cam or sensor it performs a standard homing routine. -- atp -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Homing of rotary axis
2010/5/14 Andy Pugh a...@andypugh.fsnet.co.uk: On 14 May 2010 00:16, sa...@free.fr wrote: (Ian, your idea would work fine too, but he asked to minimise the amount of movement that his hoses are subjected to) Yes, the essence is that I do not want the head to tilt those 50 degrees (which is maximum tilt angle) every time i turn on the machine, because it puts a lot of stress to high-pressure tubing (water pressure reaches ~4000 bar). Ian, thank You for a suggestion on playing with HOME_OFFSET value for fine-tuning the home position. I find that in some cases it might be easier than adjusting the home switch itself. I think it need be nothing more complex than a semi-circular metal disc on the rear shaft extension of the motor and an optical slot detector. Yes, it seems like a pretty simple setup to me too, Thank You for an idea! Viesturs -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Homing of rotary axis
Gentlemen, Here are two pictures of my cinci. They show the A axis from a wide view and a close view of the cam and switches. The cam is the homing cam. If the cam would be lengthened to engage the switch for 1/2 the motion of the A axis then the machine would function per the explanation provided by John Kasunich. As it functions now it is a very short annunciation of 'I am at the home switch'. The control ignores the home switch after the home cycle. http://www.mpm1.com:8080/cinci/pictures/cinciAaxiswide.jpg http://www.mpm1.com:8080/cinci/pictures/cinciAaxisclose.jpg thanks Stuart -- dos centavos -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Homing of rotary axis
You might consider homing the head prior to energizing the high pressure hoses. Only a sequence control. - Original Message - From: Viesturs Lacis viesturs.la...@gmail.com To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net Sent: Friday, May 14, 2010 7:35 Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Homing of rotary axis 2010/5/14 Andy Pugh a...@andypugh.fsnet.co.uk: On 14 May 2010 00:16, sa...@free.fr wrote: (Ian, your idea would work fine too, but he asked to minimise the amount of movement that his hoses are subjected to) Yes, the essence is that I do not want the head to tilt those 50 degrees (which is maximum tilt angle) every time i turn on the machine, because it puts a lot of stress to high-pressure tubing (water pressure reaches ~4000 bar). Ian, thank You for a suggestion on playing with HOME_OFFSET value for fine-tuning the home position. I find that in some cases it might be easier than adjusting the home switch itself. I think it need be nothing more complex than a semi-circular metal disc on the rear shaft extension of the motor and an optical slot detector. Yes, it seems like a pretty simple setup to me too, Thank You for an idea! Viesturs -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Homing of rotary axis
Maybe this is the place to use an absolute encoder? Just an off the wall thought. Dave On Fri, 2010-05-14 at 10:59 -0400, Cal Grandy wrote: You might consider homing the head prior to energizing the high pressure hoses. Only a sequence control. - Original Message - From: Viesturs Lacis viesturs.la...@gmail.com To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net Sent: Friday, May 14, 2010 7:35 Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Homing of rotary axis 2010/5/14 Andy Pugh a...@andypugh.fsnet.co.uk: On 14 May 2010 00:16, sa...@free.fr wrote: (Ian, your idea would work fine too, but he asked to minimise the amount of movement that his hoses are subjected to) Yes, the essence is that I do not want the head to tilt those 50 degrees (which is maximum tilt angle) every time i turn on the machine, because it puts a lot of stress to high-pressure tubing (water pressure reaches ~4000 bar). Ian, thank You for a suggestion on playing with HOME_OFFSET value for fine-tuning the home position. I find that in some cases it might be easier than adjusting the home switch itself. I think it need be nothing more complex than a semi-circular metal disc on the rear shaft extension of the motor and an optical slot detector. Yes, it seems like a pretty simple setup to me too, Thank You for an idea! Viesturs -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Homing of rotary axis
2010/5/13 Viesturs Lācis viesturs.la...@gmail.com: 2) homing sensor - i have no idea, how to implement homing sensor on a rotary axis so that it is in a middle of the movement range - it seems to me that usual homing sensors are not suitable. Please correct me, if I am wrong. Or maybe should i use some kind of priximity switch? The logical way seems to me to have a switch of some sort (mechanical, optical, proximity) which is on for all positive angles and off for all negative ones. Then the homing sequence would know which direction it has to move to find the edge. Then you have two possible homing sequences: a) if the switch is on a fast move to off and a slow search to on b) if the switch is off a fast move to on then a fast move to off and a slow search to on However: I don't think this is type of configuration is currently supported, I think you will tend to get an error along the lines of home switch set before search move though it might well be worth an experiment to see if it works. (I don't have a machine here to try it on) -- atp -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Homing of rotary axis
On Thu, 13 May 2010 10:59 +0100, Andy Pugh a...@andypugh.fsnet.co.uk wrote: 2010/5/13 Viesturs Lācis viesturs.la...@gmail.com: 2) homing sensor - i have no idea, how to implement homing sensor on a rotary axis so that it is in a middle of the movement range - it seems to me that usual homing sensors are not suitable. Please correct me, if I am wrong. Or maybe should i use some kind of priximity switch? The logical way seems to me to have a switch of some sort (mechanical, optical, proximity) which is on for all positive angles and off for all negative ones. Then the homing sequence would know which direction it has to move to find the edge. Then you have two possible homing sequences: a) if the switch is on a fast move to off and a slow search to on b) if the switch is off a fast move to on then a fast move to off and a slow search to on However: I don't think this is type of configuration is currently supported, I think you will tend to get an error along the lines of home switch set before search move though it might well be worth an experiment to see if it works. (I don't have a machine here to try it on) Actually EMC2 will work just find with such a switch. It is not quite exactly what you wrote, instead the process is: 1) If initially on the switch, move in the opposite direction to normal homing until off 2) Move in the normal homing direction till on 3) Finish the homing process (this might involve one, two, or three more moves, depending on your configuration). The usual way to implement a switch that is on for half the travel is to have a long cam or switch actuator. John Kasunich -- John Kasunich jmkasun...@fastmail.fm -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Homing of rotary axis
On 13 May 2010 12:53, John Kasunich jmkasun...@fastmail.fm wrote: Actually EMC2 will work just find with such a switch. Excellent, I thought it seemed too likely a situation not to be supported. I think I must have been confusing it with the switch inactive before start of latch move message. As you say, easily done with a long cam or a long flag and an opto. -- atp -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Homing of rotary axis
2010/5/13 Andy Pugh a...@andypugh.fsnet.co.uk: On 13 May 2010 12:53, John Kasunich jmkasun...@fastmail.fm wrote: Actually EMC2 will work just find with such a switch. The usual way to implement a switch that is on for half the travel is to have a long cam or switch actuator. Excellent, I thought it seemed too likely a situation not to be supported. I think I must have been confusing it with the switch inactive before start of latch move message. As you say, easily done with a long cam or a long flag and an opto. Thank You, guys, for suggestions! I am not sure that I understand, what is meant by a long cam or a long flag and an opto. Viesturs -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Homing of rotary axis
Thank You, guys, for suggestions! I am not sure that I understand, what is meant by a long cam or a long flag and an opto. a long cam to hold the switch open/closed for half the travel of the rotary head Viesturs -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- dos centavos -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Homing of rotary axis
Hi Viesturs, I have just been implementing something a little similar on my mill - at least, you can achieve what you want in a similar way. I have the mill set up as a normal 3-axis mill with home/limit switches at one end of each axis. What I wanted to set up now was a configuration where I can use my rotary axis on the middle of the table as a 'C' axis, i.e. with its spindle parallel to the milling spindle. To make setting up the jobs easy, I wanted the milling spindle to 'Home' to the exact centre of the rotary axis spindle. It turns out to be quite easy to do just set the HOME_OFFSET to a distance equal to half the axis travel and HOME_POSITION to 0.00. In my case, the X and Y axes rapidly move to the end of their travel until they hit the home switch, back off it then slowly onto the switch again to get exact position and finally rapidly move to the central position and set the axis display to 0.000 . In your case, you could put either a mechanical or optical switch on one side of each axis at 50 degrees from centre and set HOME_OFFSET to 50 and HOME_POSITION to 0.000 . If the switch is a little off the exact position, it doesn't really matter as you can easily correct the error by adjusting the HOME_OFFSET value until your spindle/torch lies truly vertical. Ian __ Ian W. Wright Sheffield UK -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Homing of rotary axis
Very interesting discussion. Does anyone have an example of implementation of a rotary cam-switch (and where to find one) along with an INI file example? Sincerely, Patrice -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Homing of rotary axis
On 14 May 2010 00:16, sa...@free.fr wrote: Does anyone have an example of implementation of a rotary cam-switch (and where to find one) along with an INI file example? I think it would be a perfectly normal looking INI file. As for the switch arrangement, on the proposed stepper-motor arrangement I think it need be nothing more complex than a semi-circular metal disc on the rear shaft extension of the motor and an optical slot detector. (Ian, your idea would work fine too, but he asked to minimise the amount of movement that his hoses are subjected to) -- atp -- ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
