Re: [Emc-users] Keeping track of machine (g53) position

2015-09-25 Thread Gene Heskett 
On Friday 25 September 2015 08:07:55 andy pugh wrote:

> On 25 September 2015 at 05:35, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> > This means I have to pre-position it above the switch or it runs the
> > wrong direction looking for it.
> >
> > Is there some way to make that initial search direction automatic?
>
> You can make the search velocity negative to search upwards.
> You would need to make the switch actuator longer to stop it searching
> upwards if it was already above the switch.
> (ie, you can tell it which way to search, but it can't know that it is
> already bast the switch)
Teeny roller tiped microswitches.  The pointer/cam that actuates it can 
roll right on by with no damage to the switch.  I had installed the 
pointer, then the switch but due to the lay of the casting at the top of 
the post, I was forced to put the switch at about 45mm's below the top 
of the post.  Mechanically, the nut holder shank for the ball nut hits 
the top of the slot when the sled is still about 2mm down from flush 
with the post top.

So, to get the pointer in a position where the limits would keep it from 
ever going on by the switch, I'd need to move the pointer down on the 
edge of the sled by 40+ mm's.  I should make a new pointer with a wider 
base and slots so I could adjust it I guess, drilling and tapping 2 new 
holes in the sled.

My switches are all on one wire, so the homing is sequential, Z first for 
obvious reasons.

What I was hoping for, without hacking up some hal memory, was that 
motion was aware of a switch closing and opening if it went by them in 
normal programmed motions, and was recording which direction the machine 
was moving the last time the switches opened.  That could then be 
consulted when the home all command was issued, to determine which side 
of the switch it was on, and that to find it, it needed to move toward 
it, then once found, the normal 2nd & slower phase of fine tuning the 
home would then be resumed.  All that would take is the sign of the 
motion, which could then be used to diddle the sign of the 
HOME_SEARCH_VELOCITY.

Not impossible IF the HOME_SEARCH_VELOCITY's were routed to motion by way 
of the hal engine. Or even by the interpreter, which can invert the sign 
of a # by the -# syntax.

I may do some "motion" detective work. I see output signals aplenty, but 
not all the inputs seem to be listed.  I was TBT, hoping I didn't have 
to re-invent the wheel. Sometimes mine don't roll so well until well 
past version 0.5. :(

In the meantime, I'll go see about moving the pointer.

Thanks Andy.
 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
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Re: [Emc-users] Keeping track of machine (g53) position

2015-09-25 Thread Gene Heskett 
On Friday 25 September 2015 13:31:03 John Kasunich wrote:

> On Fri, Sep 25, 2015, at 12:00 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > What I was hoping for, without hacking up some hal memory, was that
> > motion was aware of a switch closing and opening if it went by them
> > in normal programmed motions, and was recording which direction the
> > machine was moving the last time the switches opened.  That could
> > then be consulted when the home all command was issued, to determine
> > which side of the switch it was on, and that to find it, it needed
> > to move toward it, then once found, the normal 2nd & slower phase of
> > fine tuning the home would then be resumed.  All that would take is
> > the sign of the motion, which could then be used to diddle the sign
> > of the
> > HOME_SEARCH_VELOCITY.
>
> This cannot work.  Remembering where you are while running is one
> thing. Starting up is another.  When the machine is powered up it has
> no way of knowing which side of the switch it is on.  Storing the info
> somewhere is not the answer - maybe the axis was moved manually (or
> even completely disassembled for repairs) since the last time the
> control was powered. If the control doesn't know which side of the
> switch it is on, an attempt to home has a 50% chance of running the
> axis into the hard stops.  Maybe no big deal on a bench-top stepper
> machine.  Completely unacceptable on an industrial class machine.
>
> The proper answer is a long actuator for the switch, so that once the
> switch is activated, it stays activated all the way to the end of the
> axis.

Or, as I just did, move the switch so it can't go on by it. :)

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
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Re: [Emc-users] Keeping track of machine (g53) position

2015-09-25 Thread Todd Zuercher 
That is how most of the commercial machines we have do it. (several Fanuc 
machines and a couple of others) The only Fanuc machines we have that don't 
home this way have battery backed up absolute encoders and don't have any home 
or even limit switches at all. Ones with home switches usually have a long 
ramped platau 3-6" long that triggers the home switch before the limit.

- Original Message -
From: "John Kasunich" <jmkasun...@fastmail.fm>
To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Sent: Friday, September 25, 2015 1:31:03 PM
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Keeping track of machine (g53) position



On Fri, Sep 25, 2015, at 12:00 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:

> 
> What I was hoping for, without hacking up some hal memory, was that 
> motion was aware of a switch closing and opening if it went by them in 
> normal programmed motions, and was recording which direction the machine 
> was moving the last time the switches opened.  That could then be 
> consulted when the home all command was issued, to determine which side 
> of the switch it was on, and that to find it, it needed to move toward 
> it, then once found, the normal 2nd & slower phase of fine tuning the 
> home would then be resumed.  All that would take is the sign of the 
> motion, which could then be used to diddle the sign of the 
> HOME_SEARCH_VELOCITY.

This cannot work.  Remembering where you are while running is one thing.
Starting up is another.  When the machine is powered up it has no way of
knowing which side of the switch it is on.  Storing the info somewhere is not
the answer - maybe the axis was moved manually (or even completely 
disassembled for repairs) since the last time the control was powered.
If the control doesn't know which side of the switch it is on, an attempt to
home has a 50% chance of running the axis into the hard stops.  Maybe
no big deal on a bench-top stepper machine.  Completely unacceptable
on an industrial class machine.

The proper answer is a long actuator for the switch, so that once the switch
is activated, it stays activated all the way to the end of the axis.

-- 
  John Kasunich
  jmkasun...@fastmail.fm

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Re: [Emc-users] Keeping track of machine (g53) position

2015-09-25 Thread John Kasunich 


On Fri, Sep 25, 2015, at 12:00 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:

> 
> What I was hoping for, without hacking up some hal memory, was that 
> motion was aware of a switch closing and opening if it went by them in 
> normal programmed motions, and was recording which direction the machine 
> was moving the last time the switches opened.  That could then be 
> consulted when the home all command was issued, to determine which side 
> of the switch it was on, and that to find it, it needed to move toward 
> it, then once found, the normal 2nd & slower phase of fine tuning the 
> home would then be resumed.  All that would take is the sign of the 
> motion, which could then be used to diddle the sign of the 
> HOME_SEARCH_VELOCITY.

This cannot work.  Remembering where you are while running is one thing.
Starting up is another.  When the machine is powered up it has no way of
knowing which side of the switch it is on.  Storing the info somewhere is not
the answer - maybe the axis was moved manually (or even completely 
disassembled for repairs) since the last time the control was powered.
If the control doesn't know which side of the switch it is on, an attempt to
home has a 50% chance of running the axis into the hard stops.  Maybe
no big deal on a bench-top stepper machine.  Completely unacceptable
on an industrial class machine.

The proper answer is a long actuator for the switch, so that once the switch
is activated, it stays activated all the way to the end of the axis.

-- 
  John Kasunich
  jmkasun...@fastmail.fm

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Re: [Emc-users] Keeping track of machine (g53) position

2015-09-25 Thread andy pugh 
On 25 September 2015 at 05:35, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> This means I have to pre-position it above the switch or it runs the
> wrong direction looking for it.
>
> Is there some way to make that initial search direction automatic?

You can make the search velocity negative to search upwards.
You would need to make the switch actuator longer to stop it searching
upwards if it was already above the switch.
(ie, you can tell it which way to search, but it can't know that it is
already bast the switch)

-- 
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http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto

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Re: [Emc-users] Keeping track of machine (g53) position

2015-09-24 Thread andy pugh 
On 24 September 2015 at 10:09, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> Am I making sense?

Well, you have certainly confused me.

But if you are talking about using probe results to set G54, then that
is a normal thing to do.
What I normally do is run probe_hole (in the samples) as that parks
the machine in the middle of the hole at the end, then I just "set
origin" in Touchy to zero (which is a G10 L...) command.

I keep meaning to install the pretty probe screen.

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http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto

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Re: [Emc-users] Keeping track of machine (g53) position

2015-09-24 Thread Dave Cole 
On 9/24/2015 5:09 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> I am about to go carve up a
> kilobucks worth of Mahogany.

Have you considered using southern yellow pine or fir for a test run?

Dave

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Re: [Emc-users] Keeping track of machine (g53) position

2015-09-24 Thread Gene Heskett 
On Thursday 24 September 2015 11:06:48 Dave Cole wrote:

> On 9/24/2015 5:09 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > I am about to go carve up a
> > kilobucks worth of Mahogany.
>
> Have you considered using southern yellow pine or fir for a test run?
>
> Dave

clear #1 white pine, (pricy stuff too) I have about 7 feet of it left for 
test stick construction. ;-)  Used about a foot in 3.5" pieces so far. 
Somewhat cheaper to make kindling out of than Mahogany. :)

Thanks Dave.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Keeping track of machine (g53) position

2015-09-24 Thread Dave Cole 
On 9/24/2015 3:16 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Thursday 24 September 2015 11:06:48 Dave Cole wrote:
>
>> On 9/24/2015 5:09 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
>>> I am about to go carve up a
>>> kilobucks worth of Mahogany.
>> Have you considered using southern yellow pine or fir for a test run?
>>
>> Dave
> clear #1 white pine, (pricy stuff too) I have about 7 feet of it left for
> test stick construction. ;-)  Used about a foot in 3.5" pieces so far.
> Somewhat cheaper to make kindling out of than Mahogany. :)
>
> Thanks Dave.
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett

I needed some scaffolding planks for a construction/painting project 
this summer and I wanted some 2 x12 planks 8 feet long.
The local Menards had #1 grade 2 x 12 Southern Yellow Pine boards for a 
very reasonable price and I found 6 of them that were entirely free of 
knots and sapwood.
I think they were about $14.00 each.Hard to beat that.

Dave


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Re: [Emc-users] Keeping track of machine (g53) position

2015-09-24 Thread Gene Heskett 
On Thursday 24 September 2015 15:31:23 Dave Cole wrote:

> On 9/24/2015 3:16 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Thursday 24 September 2015 11:06:48 Dave Cole wrote:
> >> On 9/24/2015 5:09 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> >>> I am about to go carve up a
> >>> kilobucks worth of Mahogany.
> >>
> >> Have you considered using southern yellow pine or fir for a test
> >> run?
> >>
> >> Dave
> >
> > clear #1 white pine, (pricy stuff too) I have about 7 feet of it
> > left for test stick construction. ;-)  Used about a foot in 3.5"
> > pieces so far. Somewhat cheaper to make kindling out of than
> > Mahogany. :)
> >
> > Thanks Dave.
> >
> > Cheers, Gene Heskett
>
> I needed some scaffolding planks for a construction/painting project
> this summer and I wanted some 2 x12 planks 8 feet long.
> The local Menards had #1 grade 2 x 12 Southern Yellow Pine boards for
> a very reasonable price and I found 6 of them that were entirely free
> of knots and sapwood.
> I think they were about $14.00 each.Hard to beat that.
>
> Dave

Yep, very reasonable. Lowes is a few miles closer than Home Depot, in a 
different direction.  So they usually get first crack at supplying 
kindling making material.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
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Re: [Emc-users] Keeping track of machine (g53) position

2015-09-24 Thread Gene Heskett 
On Thursday 24 September 2015 15:32:02 andy pugh wrote:

> On 24 September 2015 at 20:12, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> > So any diddling of maps will be done with a G10 L2 P2 axis's which
> > will adjust G55, leaving G54 in the as homed condition. IOW do the
> > probing while G54 is in effect, but modify G55 with the results of
> > the probing.
>
> It might help to note that G30.1 stores the current absolute position
> into #5181 et. seq.
> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/html/gcode/gcode.html#sec:G30-G30_1

I'll have to look at that.  What I do know from todays hacking so far, is 
that starting at homed, followed by an immediate G53 G1 X0 y0 z0, g10 L2 
P2 x0 y0 z0 which is what the display says after being homed (which is 
45mm's from the top of the post, and z home is parked at the instant the 
switch opens.

But when my code runs, doing that same G53 G0 x0 y0 z0, the display says 
z is at -1.9 something inches when it stops!

I can touch it off to zero it, but it comes right back (to 4 decimal 
places right of the dot) on the next run.

It is also yelping about program exceeds z axis limits, making me do a 
run anyway, single step by single step until I can see that it has 
screwed up or is about to.

What it is, is frustrating.  Nothing in a z move in this program takes it 
within 1/2" of the z home switch, or below the nominally 10" of down 
travel (270mm's) allowed in the ini file.

FWIW, there is an A axis defined in the .ini so it will be there when and 
if I cobble up a separate driver for my nearly worthless but motorized 
4" table.  Is there an interaction between the A axis even when there 
are no A axis moves in the gcode?  ISTR someone once claimed there 
was...

This is a dog and pony show that I've hit way to many times, and its an 
old enough squawk it seems to me like it should at least report the 
erronious line of code so we might stand a snowballs chance in hell of 
finding it in a 500 line program.  What debug= will enable that tracing?
Preferably tracing and reporting only the Z affecting code bits in this 
case.

Make me ask no one in particular if its 5 o-clock yet, someplace.  Since 
its past 17:00 here, I'll take a diabetic near (2.3%) beer and the 
manual for its debug info.

Thanks Andy.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
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Re: [Emc-users] Keeping track of machine (g53) position

2015-09-24 Thread Gene Heskett 
On Thursday 24 September 2015 17:27:29 Gene Heskett wrote:

> On Thursday 24 September 2015 15:32:02 andy pugh wrote:
> > On 24 September 2015 at 20:12, Gene Heskett  
wrote:
> > > So any diddling of maps will be done with a G10 L2 P2 axis's which
> > > will adjust G55, leaving G54 in the as homed condition. IOW do the
> > > probing while G54 is in effect, but modify G55 with the results of
> > > the probing.
> >
> > It might help to note that G30.1 stores the current absolute
> > position into #5181 et. seq.
> > http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/html/gcode/gcode.html#sec:G30-G30_1
>
> I'll have to look at that.  What I do know from todays hacking so far,
> is that starting at homed, followed by an immediate G53 G1 X0 y0 z0,
> g10 L2 P2 x0 y0 z0 which is what the display says after being homed
> (which is 45mm's from the top of the post, and z home is parked at the
> instant the switch opens.
[...]
> Make me ask no one in particular if its 5 o-clock yet, someplace. 
> Since its past 17:00 here, I'll take a diabetic near (2.3%) beer and
> the manual for its debug info.

Which it turns out, has been excised from the new users pdf, pointing us 
at a header file in the source tree, which I of course do not have.  
Really now?  9 out of 10 of us are running the binaries from the 
buildbot, so remarks about genius's come to mind.

So please, put that data in the ini file DEBUG = 0x format back 
into the users docs so we can at least submit meaninbgfull terminal 
snapshots when stuff goes aglay.

> Thanks Andy.
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett

After posting this tirade, I went back out and redid the z axis homing so 
it thinks z=0.000 is about 2mm's from the top of its available travel.  
This means I have to pre-position it above the switch or it runs the 
wrong direction looking for it.

Is there some way to make that initial search direction automatic?

And somewhere in all the restarts to play with that, the program exceeds 
z limits errors went away.  So now I am fine tuning that program I wrote 
for the toy mill to run with the slightly different offsets that moving 
the jig from the small machine to the bigger one needs to do its jig 
locations on.

Marching along, adding more global vars so there is only one place to 
change when something needs changed, the ER20 let go of the mill and 
dropped it into the jig, digging a slot about an inch deep in perfectly 
solid white ash.  And it was tightened about 1/4 turn from broke when 
the spindle was started.

This hex nut on the adapter has an eccentric internal ridge that may not 
be properly engaging the groove where the two angles meet on the outside 
of a collet, and the only reason I can see to explain its existance at 
all is to engage that groove on the collet to forcibly disengage the 
collet from the taper when the nut is loosened.

If that is the reasoning, I don't think this nut is working as it was 
designed to.  Once today I installed a mill and snugged it up pretty 
good, only to have the mill display a 1/8" run out at the end of the 
mill because this eccentric internal ridge apparently didn't drop 
properly into the groove in the collet, but was wedging it crossways.

Should I ask for a better nut, or will this one break in given enough 
time?

You fellows are the ER-8/16/20/32 experts. I never saw one of them in 
person until about 16:00 yesterday.

Anyway I am back to making progress, if I can keep a tool solidly 
mounted.

Thanks everybody.  Shuteye time in WV.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
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Re: [Emc-users] Keeping track of machine (g53) position

2015-09-24 Thread Gene Heskett 
On Thursday 24 September 2015 08:27:17 andy pugh wrote:

> On 24 September 2015 at 10:09, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> > Am I making sense?
>
> Well, you have certainly confused me.
>
> But if you are talking about using probe results to set G54, then that
> is a normal thing to do.

But I want to preserve g54's inital mapping so I have a recovery for the 
next tool ability, so when I am done with this edit session, g54 will 
not have been touched, and G55 will be used as the remapped co-ordinate 
system.  That way, on a rerun after changing the tool and setting the 
new tool true with an editor, I still have  g54 to use to find the g38.2 
targets without wrecking the targets.

So any diddling of maps will be done with a G10 L2 P2 axis's which will 
adjust G55, leaving G54 in the as homed condition. IOW do the probing 
while G54 is in effect, but modify G55 with the results of the probing.

Is that clearer?

> What I normally do is run probe_hole (in the samples) as that parks
> the machine in the middle of the hole at the end, then I just "set
> origin" in Touchy to zero (which is a G10 L...) command.

This is hand coded as there isn't a hole, but 2  sides and the screw in 
the bottom holding it, half of a brass cube for the 1/4" end mill work, 
and nothing but a pcb for a z contact when the tool has been changed to 
the pointed roundover.  The only 2 other things that are changed is the 
tool_diameter and the z_depth, after the tool length has been found by a 
G38.2.

> I keep meaning to install the pretty probe screen.

I looked at that too, and may, if I don't forget about it.  But too, I 
want to bring in the camera I knocked off the toy and put it on this 
machine. Theres lots of space inside the bottom of the head casting on 
the GO704, might even be enough to hide the C920 if I can make it work 
on this machine but have not yet managed that trick.  But that is a 
couple priority ranks below making this gcode Just Work(TM). ;-)

Thanks Andy.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
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Re: [Emc-users] Keeping track of machine (g53) position

2015-09-24 Thread andy pugh 
On 24 September 2015 at 20:12, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> So any diddling of maps will be done with a G10 L2 P2 axis's which will
> adjust G55, leaving G54 in the as homed condition. IOW do the probing
> while G54 is in effect, but modify G55 with the results of the probing.

It might help to note that G30.1 stores the current absolute position
into #5181 et. seq.
http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/html/gcode/gcode.html#sec:G30-G30_1

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