Re: [Emc-users] Laser engravng
The Cheap Harbor freight blue flame helmets work fine. I have two of them, or maybe three.. not sure. Others agree. http://www.hobartwelders.com/weldtalk/archive/index.php/t-37042.html I know some professional welder friends that use them on a regular basis.. I'd be surprised if the Jackson did not work some what better ... but I can buy another welder for the difference in cost. One of the downsides of the Harbor Freight helmets is that they can be too sensitive and flash to dark in bright sunlight. But I can work around that. I have a TIG, MIG and some sticks welders and I have no issues with any of them with the blue flame helmets. Dave On 12/6/2013 8:54 PM, MC Cason wrote: Gene, Sounds like you need a better helmet. I've used many different types of helmets over the years, and I finally settled on a Jackson helmet, with a NexGen module (~$400.00). I use the same helmet for MIG, TIG, and Stick. It's adjustable from shades 9 to 13, and when the batteries die, it defaults to dark. At shade 9, I can easily see the weld puddle, and surrounding metal. The flip time is fast, and will work down to 5 amps, which makes TIG'ing really easy. Whatever you do, DO NOT get a cheapie auto darkening helmet. The flip times can be too slow, and they can burn your eyes. I just ordered a aluminum kit for my for one of my portable welders, (Lincoln HD3200), so it's going to get a pretty good workout this weekend. On 12/06/2013 02:22 PM, Gene Heskett wrote: Sounds like someone who has walked that walk, RANT MODE ON and a subject that brings up a sore point with me in that 55 years ago I could actually find an ND9 panel for my arc shield/helmet, making it usable but even then I preferred the smith wrench because of ones ability to modify the carbon content of the weld and see both the surroundings and the weld puddle thru a set of ND5's. Today its ND10's only, which are so damned dense you can't see where to strike the arc even with bright sunlight on the workpieces. And getting these high priced automatics set to work well is a dream I haven't managed to do well yet. Mostly all you can see is the arc itself but dammit all to hell, one needs to be able to see the work surface for at least a cm around the arc in order to really be able to drive the j-stroke cleanly down the joint AND get good penetration. I can manage to run my mig when I have to, but if I could actually see what the hell I was doing, I could do a hell of a lot better than I can do when blinded by excess ND. /RANT MODE. Cheers, Gene -- Sponsored by Intel(R) XDK Develop, test and display web and hybrid apps with a single code base. Download it for free now! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=111408631iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Laser engravng
Burning wood, and etching metal are two different things. 30W lasers have a hard time etching Aluminum without a special paste applied to the part. I don't think a 2W laser diode will do much to a PCB except maybe blacken it a bit. Thanks, Billy On 12/06/2013 12:55 PM, Gene Heskett wrote: Greetings; On reading one article on the net about ripping up old dvd writers and using the nominally 2 watt laser diode to do some wood burning etc with them, it has occurred to me that there could possibly be a use for those diodes in 'etching' pcb's. The article showed one mounted in a gantry machine, burning wood, from a quite decent distance away from the wood, perhaps an inch or 2.5cm above the surface of the wood. The backblast didn't quite reach back up to the laser to dirty its lenses. So my question is, to someone who may have tried/done this, is can a 1 ounce layer of copper be burned away rapidly enough so as not to leave a burned, conductive path where the copper was? I ask because I have 3 or 4 old dvd writers that no longer write a usable disk, although the written area can be seen on the throwaway disk. Pack rat that I am, I haven't binned them yet. Cheers, Gene -- Billy Huddleston Inner Vision *William Huddleston Inner Vision Development Corp* Office: 865.560.2752 Fax: 865.560.2703 http://www.ivdc.com *Development and Consulting... Simplified.* http://www.facebook.com/pages/Inner-Vision-Development/120023721424 http://twitter.com/ivdc http://www.linkedin.com/in/ivdccorp -- Sponsored by Intel(R) XDK Develop, test and display web and hybrid apps with a single code base. Download it for free now! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=111408631iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Laser engravng
Hi Gene So my question is, to someone who may have tried/done this, is can a 1 ounce layer of copper be burned away rapidly enough so as not to leave a burned, conductive path where the copper was? I tried this with two different Lasers sources: 120 W CW CO2 Laser at 10600 µm wavelength: Result: no way to 'burn' the copper. It was hardly possible to burn away a the play of photosensitive coating used in the normal 'wet' process. 200W q-switched Yb:Yag Laser at 1064 µm: Result: even the 25 kW max. pulse energy were not sufficient to burn away the copper properly. It is possible to cut through the coper layer by the precess is not controlled enough. The pulse energy would probably have to be at least 10 times higher to establish a decent process. But this laser removes the light sensitive coating quite well at low power settings. I ask because I have 3 or 4 old dvd writers that no longer write a usable disk, although the written area can be seen on the throwaway disk. Pack rat that I am, I haven't binned them yet. No way to affect the coper layer with a diode from a DVD writer, but is should be possible to expose the light sensitive coating using a low power blue LED. So this could eliminate the traditional exposer processes but you would sill have all the rest of the wet process. See you Flo -- Sponsored by Intel(R) XDK Develop, test and display web and hybrid apps with a single code base. Download it for free now! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=111408631iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Laser engravng
PS: There was a ns pulsed UV Laser (quadrupled YAG) on ebay recently, this would be the right one for the job. I was close to buying it was quite cheap. -- Sponsored by Intel(R) XDK Develop, test and display web and hybrid apps with a single code base. Download it for free now! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=111408631iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Laser engravng
On 06/12/13 18:10, Florian Rist wrote: PS: There was a ns pulsed UV Laser (quadrupled YAG) on ebay recently, this would be the right one for the job. I was close to buying it was quite cheap. -- Sponsored by Intel(R) XDK Develop, test and display web and hybrid apps with a single code base. Download it for free now! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=111408631iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users Gene , unfortunatly not , copper for one will absorb the heat . and for a laser to work it realy needs to vaporise the metal , which is one reason you see dvd lasers burning wood or plastics rather than a clean cut . iv'e try'd copper and even with 600w + it's difficult to even mark it although the fr4 will burn quite nicely and be nice and crisp and fill your room with unfortunate toxins Dave -- Sponsored by Intel(R) XDK Develop, test and display web and hybrid apps with a single code base. Download it for free now! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=111408631iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Laser engravng
Hi David iv'e try'd copper and even with 600w + it's difficult to even mark it Yes, 600W is not enough. That's why a q-switched laser with short pulses is needed. Pulse peek energy on my laser is 25 kW, that's still not enough, the one on the mentioned laser was about 1 MW. This instantly turns the coper into plasma. Its not melting not vaporising it, it tuns a very thin layer into plasma within less than a ns. This process is very controlled an would allow to remove the 35 mµ of coper in multiple paths without heating the FR4 and without hardly removing any of it. cu Flo -- Sponsored by Intel(R) XDK Develop, test and display web and hybrid apps with a single code base. Download it for free now! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=111408631iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Laser engravng
On Friday 06 December 2013 13:18:03 Billy Huddleston did opine: Burning wood, and etching metal are two different things. 30W lasers have a hard time etching Aluminum without a special paste applied to the part. I don't think a 2W laser diode will do much to a PCB except maybe blacken it a bit. Thanks, Billy Well good, that heads me off at the pass then, thank you. What I had in mind was to pulse it, maintaining the 2 watt average, but banging it with 200 watts for .5% of the time, 1 u-sec on, 100 off. The burners themselves do that for the duration of the pit being burned AIUI, but not quite that great a ratio since they can be on for about 90% of the time under certain encodings for several hundred microseconds. First purchase of course is a set of those narrowband sunglasses to match the diode used. I haven't scrapped any blue-rays yet, they are either not yet in wide use in recorders, or a much longer lasting technology. Fancy way of saying I don't have one in the junque pile, yet. ;-) So, ways and means to make a quick change spindle that cranks up a 100k rev dental tool may be in the next path explored. 2500 revs max with this one means I can't run more than about 2 ipm if I want clean cutting, at 5 I have to drop it on a sheet of 600 grit wet-r-dry, wet, and sand-cut the burrs off before I can turn it over to do the back side else they hold the board at random heights at random locations on the board, not very conducive to nice, just thru the copper etching. The bearings in this spindle are now fairly old, and take a beating from a hammer on the draw bolt head every time I change tools, so I am slightly amazed they haven't went tits up already, but asking for even 25 grand seems like a quick way to burn these up. I have a vision of something that I can interchange in the current quill mount by unclamping it, pulling the handle rack shaft out and pulling the existing quill, gearcase and motor out, which is something in the 10 cm diameter range. Also with the drive motor on top, but stolen from an old dremel perhaps. Either direct drive, or perhaps a gear up using pulleys and o-rings in the area above the head casting. But so far its in the what if stage. :) On 12/06/2013 12:55 PM, Gene Heskett wrote: Greetings; On reading one article on the net about ripping up old dvd writers and using the nominally 2 watt laser diode to do some wood burning etc with them, it has occurred to me that there could possibly be a use for those diodes in 'etching' pcb's. The article showed one mounted in a gantry machine, burning wood, from a quite decent distance away from the wood, perhaps an inch or 2.5cm above the surface of the wood. The backblast didn't quite reach back up to the laser to dirty its lenses. So my question is, to someone who may have tried/done this, is can a 1 ounce layer of copper be burned away rapidly enough so as not to leave a burned, conductive path where the copper was? I ask because I have 3 or 4 old dvd writers that no longer write a usable disk, although the written area can be seen on the throwaway disk. Pack rat that I am, I haven't binned them yet. Cheers, Gene Cheers, Gene -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Genes Web page http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene If I were a grave-digger or even a hangman, there are some people I could work for with a great deal of enjoyment. -- Douglas Jerrold A pen in the hand of this president is far more dangerous than 200 million guns in the hands of law-abiding citizens. -- Sponsored by Intel(R) XDK Develop, test and display web and hybrid apps with a single code base. Download it for free now! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=111408631iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Laser engravng
On Friday 06 December 2013 13:46:26 Florian Rist did opine: Hi Gene So my question is, to someone who may have tried/done this, is can a 1 ounce layer of copper be burned away rapidly enough so as not to leave a burned, conductive path where the copper was? I tried this with two different Lasers sources: 120 W CW CO2 Laser at 10600 µm wavelength: Result: no way to 'burn' the copper. It was hardly possible to burn away a the play of photosensitive coating used in the normal 'wet' process. 200W q-switched Yb:Yag Laser at 1064 µm: Result: even the 25 kW max. pulse energy were not sufficient to burn away the copper properly. It is possible to cut through the coper layer by the precess is not controlled enough. The pulse energy would probably have to be at least 10 times higher to establish a decent process. But this laser removes the light sensitive coating quite well at low power settings. I ask because I have 3 or 4 old dvd writers that no longer write a usable disk, although the written area can be seen on the throwaway disk. Pack rat that I am, I haven't binned them yet. No way to affect the coper layer with a diode from a DVD writer, but is should be possible to expose the light sensitive coating using a low power blue LED. So this could eliminate the traditional exposer processes but you would sill have all the rest of the wet process. Something that since I have extensive experience with, and the destruction one can cause trying to dispose of spent ferric chloride, I do NOT want to be involved with ever again. See you Flo -- Sponsored by Intel(R) XDK Develop, test and display web and hybrid apps with a single code base. Download it for free now! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=111408631iu=/4140/ostg.cl ktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users Cheers, Gene -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Genes Web page http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene Formatted to fit your screen. A pen in the hand of this president is far more dangerous than 200 million guns in the hands of law-abiding citizens. -- Sponsored by Intel(R) XDK Develop, test and display web and hybrid apps with a single code base. Download it for free now! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=111408631iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Laser engravng
On 12/06/2013 07:07 PM, Florian Rist wrote: So my question is, to someone who may have tried/done this, is can a 1 ounce layer of copper be burned away rapidly enough so as not to leave a burned, conductive path where the copper was? I tried this with two different Lasers sources: 120 W CW CO2 Laser at 10600 µm wavelength: Result: no way to 'burn' the copper. It was hardly possible to burn away a the play of photosensitive coating used in the normal 'wet' process. 200W q-switched Yb:Yag Laser at 1064 µm: Result: even the 25 kW max. pulse energy were not sufficient to burn away the copper properly. It is possible to cut through the coper layer by the precess is not controlled enough. The pulse energy would probably have to be at least 10 times higher to establish a decent process. But this laser removes the light sensitive coating quite well at low power settings. Copper boils at ~2560 deg C and has a thermal conductivity of ~400W/(mK). Compare this to aluminium: 2520deg and 237W/(mK) and iron: 2860deg and 80W/(mK). Getting any copper vaporized, you need a *huge* amount of energy. We are talking about 100..250kW pulses to make any proper cut and more if it needs to be nice. Aluminium also has a great problem because it is very close to copper. Iron has 5 times less heat transport and even though it has a higher boiling temperature, it will vaporize more easily than copper and aluminium due to the reduced heat transport. -- Greetings Bertho (disclaimers are disclaimed) -- Sponsored by Intel(R) XDK Develop, test and display web and hybrid apps with a single code base. Download it for free now! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=111408631iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Laser engravng
On Friday 06 December 2013 13:50:36 David Armstrong did opine: On 06/12/13 18:10, Florian Rist wrote: PS: There was a ns pulsed UV Laser (quadrupled YAG) on ebay recently, this would be the right one for the job. I was close to buying it was quite cheap. -- Sponsored by Intel(R) XDK Develop, test and display web and hybrid apps with a single code base. Download it for free now! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=111408631iu=/4140/ostg. clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users Gene , unfortunatly not , copper for one will absorb the heat . and for a laser to work it realy needs to vaporise the metal , which is one reason you see dvd lasers burning wood or plastics rather than a clean cut . iv'e try'd copper and even with 600w + it's difficult to even mark it although the fr4 will burn quite nicely and be nice and crisp and fill your room with unfortunate toxins Dave Just one of the reasons to have a 4 hose from my dust collector arranged to keep the area clear, and the stink outside, where my home sewn 2' diameter, 10' foot long collector bag lives. -- Sponsored by Intel(R) XDK Develop, test and display web and hybrid apps with a single code base. Download it for free now! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=111408631iu=/4140/ostg.cl ktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users Cheers, Gene -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Genes Web page http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene Mickey Mouse wears a Spiro Agnew watch. A pen in the hand of this president is far more dangerous than 200 million guns in the hands of law-abiding citizens. -- Sponsored by Intel(R) XDK Develop, test and display web and hybrid apps with a single code base. Download it for free now! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=111408631iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Laser engravng
On Friday 06 December 2013 13:57:04 Florian Rist did opine: Hi David iv'e try'd copper and even with 600w + it's difficult to even mark it Yes, 600W is not enough. That's why a q-switched laser with short pulses is needed. Pulse peek energy on my laser is 25 kW, that's still not enough, the one on the mentioned laser was about 1 MW. This instantly turns the coper into plasma. Its not melting not vaporising it, it tuns a very thin layer into plasma within less than a ns. This process is very controlled an would allow to remove the 35 mµ of coper in multiple paths without heating the FR4 and without hardly removing any of it. cu Flo Humm, thats beginning to sound like non-exportable munitions. Not to mention eyeball wreckers just from the reflections off the surrounding walls. :( Bad idea for someone not well versed in the tech. Cheers, Gene -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Genes Web page http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene Everything is possible. Pass the word. -- Rita Mae Brown, Six of One A pen in the hand of this president is far more dangerous than 200 million guns in the hands of law-abiding citizens. -- Sponsored by Intel(R) XDK Develop, test and display web and hybrid apps with a single code base. Download it for free now! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=111408631iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Laser engravng
On Friday 06 December 2013 14:00:58 Bertho Stultiens did opine: On 12/06/2013 07:07 PM, Florian Rist wrote: So my question is, to someone who may have tried/done this, is can a 1 ounce layer of copper be burned away rapidly enough so as not to leave a burned, conductive path where the copper was? I tried this with two different Lasers sources: 120 W CW CO2 Laser at 10600 µm wavelength: Result: no way to 'burn' the copper. It was hardly possible to burn away a the play of photosensitive coating used in the normal 'wet' process. 200W q-switched Yb:Yag Laser at 1064 µm: Result: even the 25 kW max. pulse energy were not sufficient to burn away the copper properly. It is possible to cut through the coper layer by the precess is not controlled enough. The pulse energy would probably have to be at least 10 times higher to establish a decent process. But this laser removes the light sensitive coating quite well at low power settings. Copper boils at ~2560 deg C and has a thermal conductivity of ~400W/(mK). Compare this to aluminium: 2520deg and 237W/(mK) and iron: 2860deg and 80W/(mK). Getting any copper vaporized, you need a *huge* amount of energy. We are talking about 100..250kW pulses to make any proper cut and more if it needs to be nice. Aluminium also has a great problem because it is very close to copper. Iron has 5 times less heat transport and even though it has a higher boiling temperature, it will vaporize more easily than copper and aluminium due to the reduced heat transport. I figure there was that effect in there someplace, but had no idea as to the scale. Interesting thanks. Cheers, Gene -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Genes Web page http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene Laugh and the world thinks you're an idiot. A pen in the hand of this president is far more dangerous than 200 million guns in the hands of law-abiding citizens. -- Sponsored by Intel(R) XDK Develop, test and display web and hybrid apps with a single code base. Download it for free now! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=111408631iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Laser engravng
Hi Gen Humm, thats beginning to sound like non-exportable munitions. Not to mention eyeball wreckers just from the reflections off the surrounding walls. :( Bad idea for someone not well versed in the tech. Yes proper eye protection is important, but also at just 2 W and a diode from a DVD burner. The power density that can be reached at the retina is surprisingly high as soon as you deal with culminated (parallel) beams. So even 2 W of continuous wave beam can cause permanent damage especially if the light is in the visible range of the spectrum. The 10600 nm fro a CO2 laser are less dangerous, as they will 'only' burn the corona and not reach the retina. cu Flo -- Sponsored by Intel(R) XDK Develop, test and display web and hybrid apps with a single code base. Download it for free now! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=111408631iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Laser engravng
On 12/06/2013 07:56 PM, Gene Heskett wrote: PS: There was a ns pulsed UV Laser (quadrupled YAG) on ebay recently, this would be the right one for the job. I was close to buying it was quite cheap. unfortunatly not , copper for one will absorb the heat . and for a laser to work it realy needs to vaporise the metal , which is one reason you see dvd lasers burning wood or plastics rather than a clean cut . iv'e try'd copper and even with 600w + it's difficult to even mark it although the fr4 will burn quite nicely and be nice and crisp and fill your room with unfortunate toxins Just one of the reasons to have a 4 hose from my dust collector arranged to keep the area clear, and the stink outside, where my home sewn 2' diameter, 10' foot long collector bag lives. Also, you need an inert gas enclosure (argon) to prevent catastrophic results. Vaporizing metals at these temperatures are extremely reactive and any oxygen will result in a burning cloud. Not to mention eyeball wreckers just from the reflections off the surrounding walls. Bad idea for someone not well versed in the tech. Yes, the laser should be tuned to an absorption line of metal/material being cut to prevent too much energy loss due to reflection. Humm, thats beginning to sound like non-exportable munitions. Indeed, it is not a hobby-laser anymore... -- Greetings Bertho (disclaimers are disclaimed) -- Sponsored by Intel(R) XDK Develop, test and display web and hybrid apps with a single code base. Download it for free now! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=111408631iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Laser engravng
On 06/12/13 18:59, Gene Heskett wrote: On Friday 06 December 2013 13:57:04 Florian Rist did opine: Hi David iv'e try'd copper and even with 600w + it's difficult to even mark it Yes, 600W is not enough. That's why a q-switched laser with short pulses is needed. Pulse peek energy on my laser is 25 kW, that's still not enough, the one on the mentioned laser was about 1 MW. This instantly turns the coper into plasma. Its not melting not vaporising it, it tuns a very thin layer into plasma within less than a ns. This process is very controlled an would allow to remove the 35 mµ of coper in multiple paths without heating the FR4 and without hardly removing any of it. cu Flo Humm, thats beginning to sound like non-exportable munitions. Not to mention eyeball wreckers just from the reflections off the surrounding walls. :( Bad idea for someone not well versed in the tech. Cheers, Gene yes and thats just for starters . but the fireworks in the tubes are good ! ( with suitable glasses of course ) it's fun when someone sees a laser for the first time , and sees you cutting 1/2 - 3/4 thick steel but try's to think of the reason why it will not cut aluminium of 1/8 , and that it must be faulty ! -- Sponsored by Intel(R) XDK Develop, test and display web and hybrid apps with a single code base. Download it for free now! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=111408631iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Laser engravng
On Friday 06 December 2013 14:22:22 Florian Rist did opine: Yes proper eye protection is important, but also at just 2 W and a diode from a DVD burner. The power density that can be reached at the retina is surprisingly high as soon as you deal with culminated (parallel) beams. So even 2 W of continuous wave beam can cause permanent damage especially if the light is in the visible range of the spectrum. The 10600 nm fro a CO2 laser are less dangerous, as they will 'only' burn the corona and not reach the retina. cu Flo Hence the cataract warnings that seem to surround the long IR CO2 models. Unforch I do have some already. Cheers, Gene -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Genes Web page http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene For I swore I would stay a year away from her; out and alas! but with break of day I went to make supplication. -- Paulus Silentarius, c. 540 A.D. A pen in the hand of this president is far more dangerous than 200 million guns in the hands of law-abiding citizens. -- Sponsored by Intel(R) XDK Develop, test and display web and hybrid apps with a single code base. Download it for free now! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=111408631iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Laser engravng
On 12/06/2013 08:24 PM, Gene Heskett wrote: Hence the cataract warnings that seem to surround the long IR CO2 models. Unforch I do have some already. Cataract inducing lasers are at ~1500nm (often Yag type lasers). The 1.5um is small enough to pass through the cornea and will induce coagulation in the lens (making it milky-white). Your cornea also will take damage, but the bulk energy at these wavelengths (1..2um) are absorbed by the lens. Longer wavelengths are readily absorbed by water and will cause the tearfilm to boil off. If any appreciable amount of energy still passes onto the anterior chamber (between lens and cornea) then the water there will heat. Too long exposure will cause the lens to coagulate (at about 55..60 degrees C) and therefore also induce a cataract. When you get into such situation, you'd be swearing and grumbling that you /should/ have been wearing eye protection. ;-) Do not mess with your eyes. (full disclosure: I workes at a hospital's department of ophthalmology for 10 years). -- Greetings Bertho (disclaimers are disclaimed) -- Sponsored by Intel(R) XDK Develop, test and display web and hybrid apps with a single code base. Download it for free now! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=111408631iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Laser engravng
On Friday 06 December 2013 15:04:27 Bertho Stultiens did opine: On 12/06/2013 08:24 PM, Gene Heskett wrote: Hence the cataract warnings that seem to surround the long IR CO2 models. Unforch I do have some already. Cataract inducing lasers are at ~1500nm (often Yag type lasers). The 1.5um is small enough to pass through the cornea and will induce coagulation in the lens (making it milky-white). Your cornea also will take damage, but the bulk energy at these wavelengths (1..2um) are absorbed by the lens. Longer wavelengths are readily absorbed by water and will cause the tearfilm to boil off. If any appreciable amount of energy still passes onto the anterior chamber (between lens and cornea) then the water there will heat. Too long exposure will cause the lens to coagulate (at about 55..60 degrees C) and therefore also induce a cataract. When you get into such situation, you'd be swearing and grumbling that you /should/ have been wearing eye protection. ;-) Do not mess with your eyes. (full disclosure: I workes at a hospital's department of ophthalmology for 10 years). Sounds like someone who has walked that walk, RANT MODE ON and a subject that brings up a sore point with me in that 55 years ago I could actually find an ND9 panel for my arc shield/helmet, making it usable but even then I preferred the smith wrench because of ones ability to modify the carbon content of the weld and see both the surroundings and the weld puddle thru a set of ND5's. Today its ND10's only, which are so damned dense you can't see where to strike the arc even with bright sunlight on the workpieces. And getting these high priced automatics set to work well is a dream I haven't managed to do well yet. Mostly all you can see is the arc itself but dammit all to hell, one needs to be able to see the work surface for at least a cm around the arc in order to really be able to drive the j-stroke cleanly down the joint AND get good penetration. I can manage to run my mig when I have to, but if I could actually see what the hell I was doing, I could do a hell of a lot better than I can do when blinded by excess ND. /RANT MODE. Cheers, Gene -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Genes Web page http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene You will pay for your sins. If you have already paid, please disregard this message. A pen in the hand of this president is far more dangerous than 200 million guns in the hands of law-abiding citizens. -- Sponsored by Intel(R) XDK Develop, test and display web and hybrid apps with a single code base. Download it for free now! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=111408631iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Laser engravng
Something that since I have extensive experience with, and the destruction one can cause trying to dispose of spent ferric chloride, I do NOT want to be involved with ever again. The guys here etch PCBs with a mix of muriatic acid and hydrogen peroxide, which is much easier to deal with. Google muriatic acid pcb etching for more info-- our version is here: http://milwaukeemakerspace.org/2012/04/pcb-with-lasered-paint-resist-and-fast-sponge-etching/ Note that we're using 30% H2O2 rather than the 2% you typically find at a pharmacy (I don't know where they buy it). Supposedly you can regenerate the acid mix by bubbling air through it, but we've never gotten that to work, so we just mix up a new batch each time. Instead of photo resist, we use black spray paint, and etch the paint away with a laser cutter. We've tried cutting circuit boards with a CNC engraving machine, with varying results. The main problem seems to be keeping the board absolutely flat-- it tends to warp, and then you don't get a consistent depth of cut. There is a method of height mapping the board ahead of time, and using the computer to compensate while engraving. I don't know the details, but it does seem to work. I think it's a plug-in for Mach3. Very careful mounting might also work. -- Sponsored by Intel(R) XDK Develop, test and display web and hybrid apps with a single code base. Download it for free now! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=111408631iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Laser engravng
On 12/06/2013 12:23 PM, Ron Bean wrote: ... snip Instead of photo resist, we use black spray paint, and etch the paint away with a laser cutter. We've tried cutting circuit boards with a CNC engraving machine, with varying results. The main problem seems to be keeping the board absolutely flat-- it tends to warp, and then you don't get a consistent depth of cut. There is a method of height mapping the board ahead of time, and using the computer to compensate while engraving. I don't know the details, but it does seem to work. I think it's a plug-in for Mach3. Very careful mounting might also work. I have been thinking of using paint resist but engrave the resist off, which might work if the Z variation is within the copper thickness. I guess the engraving mill would also need to have vertical sides too - maybe not such a good idea. I have tried laser printer/iron-on transfers but this isn't very accurate and not good enough for two sided boards. -- Kirk Wallace http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/ http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/ -- Sponsored by Intel(R) XDK Develop, test and display web and hybrid apps with a single code base. Download it for free now! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=111408631iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Laser engravng
On Friday 06 December 2013 15:28:32 Ron Bean did opine: Something that since I have extensive experience with, and the destruction one can cause trying to dispose of spent ferric chloride, I do NOT want to be involved with ever again. The guys here etch PCBs with a mix of muriatic acid and hydrogen peroxide, which is much easier to deal with. Google muriatic acid pcb etching for more info-- our version is here: http://milwaukeemakerspace.org/2012/04/pcb-with-lasered-paint-resist-and -fast-sponge-etching/ Note that we're using 30% H2O2 rather than the 2% you typically find at a pharmacy (I don't know where they buy it). Supposedly you can regenerate the acid mix by bubbling air through it, but we've never gotten that to work, so we just mix up a new batch each time. Instead of photo resist, we use black spray paint, and etch the paint away with a laser cutter. We've tried cutting circuit boards with a CNC engraving machine, with varying results. The main problem seems to be keeping the board absolutely flat-- it tends to warp, and then you don't get a consistent depth of cut. There is a method of height mapping the board ahead of time, and using the computer to compensate while engraving. I don't know the details, but it does seem to work. I think it's a plug-in for Mach3. Very careful mounting might also work. I machine an insulating pallet out of micarta, which doesn't require mapping if the pallet is clean, and the top etch is deburred on a sheet of 600 wet-r-dry, wet with cuting oil before turning it over. I use flat head 0-80 screws threaded into the micarta as hold downs so they wedge the board in place, so that there is just enough tension to keep it from walking around a thou or so if the bit gets really dull. The use of tape allows just enough sideways wiggle that I can see it in the etching of a pad. The insulated pallet allows me to establish the z depth with a G38.2 directly from the tip of the etching tool and some follow up code to modify either G55 for the top, or G56 for the bottom. I haven't felt the need to do a preliminary mapping grid run since I found that 5 seconds on the wet wet-r-dry stuck to a granite surface slab, and a decent blow from the air hose to clean it up again took care of the z depth problems. Now with the camera mounted and working with camview-emc, and the align.zip also working and making some hold downs out of 1/2 micarta, one with a contact for the probe connection in its tip, I might be able to do away with the pallet, but haven't made the micarta hold downs yet. On my todo list though. So is installing a few sheets of 2 R11 styro between the studs to ease the electric bill for heating that garden barn/shed. I have 4 sheets of it blocking the garage now. But here in WV, its plumb fugly outside, which is where I'd have to cut the styrofoam. Upper 30's F, and pouring it out of some pretty tall boots. Toss in enough wind me and my diabetic feet are gonna 'stay in the barn' try to keep warm. Cheers, Gene -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Genes Web page http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene Nature is very un-American. Nature never hurries. -- William George Jordan A pen in the hand of this president is far more dangerous than 200 million guns in the hands of law-abiding citizens. -- Sponsored by Intel(R) XDK Develop, test and display web and hybrid apps with a single code base. Download it for free now! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=111408631iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Laser engravng
Gene, Sounds like you need a better helmet. I've used many different types of helmets over the years, and I finally settled on a Jackson helmet, with a NexGen module (~$400.00). I use the same helmet for MIG, TIG, and Stick. It's adjustable from shades 9 to 13, and when the batteries die, it defaults to dark. At shade 9, I can easily see the weld puddle, and surrounding metal. The flip time is fast, and will work down to 5 amps, which makes TIG'ing really easy. Whatever you do, DO NOT get a cheapie auto darkening helmet. The flip times can be too slow, and they can burn your eyes. I just ordered a aluminum kit for my for one of my portable welders, (Lincoln HD3200), so it's going to get a pretty good workout this weekend. On 12/06/2013 02:22 PM, Gene Heskett wrote: Sounds like someone who has walked that walk, RANT MODE ON and a subject that brings up a sore point with me in that 55 years ago I could actually find an ND9 panel for my arc shield/helmet, making it usable but even then I preferred the smith wrench because of ones ability to modify the carbon content of the weld and see both the surroundings and the weld puddle thru a set of ND5's. Today its ND10's only, which are so damned dense you can't see where to strike the arc even with bright sunlight on the workpieces. And getting these high priced automatics set to work well is a dream I haven't managed to do well yet. Mostly all you can see is the arc itself but dammit all to hell, one needs to be able to see the work surface for at least a cm around the arc in order to really be able to drive the j-stroke cleanly down the joint AND get good penetration. I can manage to run my mig when I have to, but if I could actually see what the hell I was doing, I could do a hell of a lot better than I can do when blinded by excess ND. /RANT MODE. Cheers, Gene -- MC Cason Associate Developer - Eagle3D, Created by Matthias Weißer -- Sponsored by Intel(R) XDK Develop, test and display web and hybrid apps with a single code base. Download it for free now! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=111408631iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Laser engravng
On Friday 06 December 2013 21:29:40 MC Cason did opine: Gene, Sounds like you need a better helmet. I've used many different types of helmets over the years, and I finally settled on a Jackson helmet, with a NexGen module (~$400.00). I use the same helmet for MIG, TIG, and Stick. It's adjustable from shades 9 to 13, and when the batteries die, it defaults to dark. Ok, can I get it to sit low enough I can use my trifocals without fogging up because the glass is then sitting on my nose? That is the 2nd part of whether or not I might spend $400. This one, about 90 bucks, seems to have a plumb adequate flip time, claims 15 microseconds. At shade 9, I can easily see the weld puddle, and surrounding metal. The flip time is fast, and will work down to 5 amps, which makes TIG'ing really easy. Whatever you do, DO NOT get a cheapie auto darkening helmet. The flip times can be too slow, and they can burn your eyes. I just ordered a aluminum kit for my for one of my portable welders, (Lincoln HD3200), so it's going to get a pretty good workout this weekend. That ought to be fun, what gas does it use? [...rant] Cheers, Gene -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Genes Web page http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene I just know I'm a better manager when I have Joe DiMaggio in center field. -- Casey Stengel A pen in the hand of this president is far more dangerous than 200 million guns in the hands of law-abiding citizens. -- Sponsored by Intel(R) XDK Develop, test and display web and hybrid apps with a single code base. Download it for free now! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=111408631iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Laser engravng
On 12/06/2013 08:33 PM, Gene Heskett wrote: On Friday 06 December 2013 21:29:40 MC Cason did opine: Gene, Sounds like you need a better helmet. I've used many different types of helmets over the years, and I finally settled on a Jackson helmet, with a NexGen module (~$400.00). I use the same helmet for MIG, TIG, and Stick. It's adjustable from shades 9 to 13, and when the batteries die, it defaults to dark. Ok, can I get it to sit low enough I can use my trifocals without fogging up because the glass is then sitting on my nose? That is the 2nd part of whether or not I might spend $400. This one, about 90 bucks, seems to have a plumb adequate flip time, claims 15 microseconds. I use a set of readers with my helmet, because a cheater lens was too small. it has a large viewing area, not quite double the height of a standard lens, and it claims 40 microseconds. I had one that claimed 20 microseconds, and this one beats the pants off of it. This is what mine looks like (And it's a bit less than what I paid for mine): http://store.cyberweld.com/janeaudaleww.html At shade 9, I can easily see the weld puddle, and surrounding metal. The flip time is fast, and will work down to 5 amps, which makes TIG'ing really easy. Whatever you do, DO NOT get a cheapie auto darkening helmet. The flip times can be too slow, and they can burn your eyes. I just ordered a aluminum kit for my for one of my portable welders, (Lincoln HD3200), so it's going to get a pretty good workout this weekend. That ought to be fun, what gas does it use? Straight argon. It was easier to get the conversion kit for my portable welder, and take it to the boat, than take the boat to the TIG welder. [...rant] Cheers, Gene -- MC Cason Associate Developer - Eagle3D, Created by Matthias Weißer -- Sponsored by Intel(R) XDK Develop, test and display web and hybrid apps with a single code base. Download it for free now! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=111408631iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
