Re: [Emc-users] Raspberry pi integration?
On 5/10/2012 10:11 PM, Jon Elson wrote: Kent A. Reed wrote: As for the ARM-specific real-time Linux that definitely is required, Jon has been waiting for several years for RT-Linux to be ported satisfactorily to the BeagleBoard. Slight error, it is RTAI that is not yet available on the Beagle. I believe RT-Preempt may be available already. Jon RTAI is what I meant to say but my fingers had other ideas. Sorry. Regards, Kent -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Raspberry pi integration?
On 10 May 2012, at 03:21, Jack Coats wrote: On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 8:51 PM, Scott Hasse scott.ha...@gmail.com wrote: I presume many of you have seen the hype on the Raspberry Pi. Am I correct in thinking that getting LinuxCNC to run on one of those would require an arm-specific RTAI and drivers for the device-specific I/O? Has anyone else given any thought to this potentially disruptive platform in the context of LinuxCNC? Scott I was thinking about the same thing. I did do some search to see there are folks selling real time software for the ARM, but I am sure it isn't open software. Here's xenomai Real-Time Framework for Linux running on an embedded arm board:- http://www.federicololli.com/xenomaifoxg20.htm Can LinuxCNC use xenomai? Bill -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Raspberry pi integration?
On Thu, 10 May 2012 00:43:12 -0400 Kent A. Reed kentallanr...@gmail.com wrote: snip Ask Jon Elson for a different opinion as an interested party who is a component vendor and system integrator. As for the ARM-specific real-time Linux that definitely is required, Jon has been waiting for several years for RT-Linux to be ported satisfactorily to the BeagleBoard. While the current developmental Preempt-RT work being done with LinuxCNC is encouraging and might port more easily, we don't know yet if it will give satisfactory performance on x86-class boards let alone on any of the many ARM-class boards. And, yes, there's the problem of interfacing the Raspberry Pi to any real-world equipment. Jon Elson has reported on progress in the specific case of his BeagleBoard. Don't get me wrong, I have two ARM-based systems running Linux on my bench that I am playing with and I put in my reservation for a Raspberry Pi a while ago just because, but they are intended for other applications. Intel Atom-based motherboards remain my choice for LinuxCNC. Live long and prosper :-) Regards, Kent Slightly OT but if one wants a non-intel cpu for motion control take a look at Mesa's SOFTDMC. Implements a configurable accel/decel, jerk limited and very fast servo cycle ( = 50 KHz ). The interp, etc would run on the intel and the SOFTDMC in the FPGA handles motion. What it needs is a interface between the motion nml messages and the format used by the FPGA. I've heard rumors of someone having gotten half way thru an implementation but quit working on it. Don't think I every got a name. :-( Sorry, just had to rattle the cage. Dave -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Raspberry pi integration?
On 5/10/2012 6:25 AM, Bill Hill wrote: On 10 May 2012, at 03:21, Jack Coats wrote: On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 8:51 PM, Scott Hassescott.ha...@gmail.com wrote: I presume many of you have seen the hype on the Raspberry Pi. Am I correct in thinking that getting LinuxCNC to run on one of those would require an arm-specific RTAI and drivers for the device-specific I/O? Has anyone else given any thought to this potentially disruptive platform in the context of LinuxCNC? Scott I was thinking about the same thing. I did do some search to see there are folks selling real time software for the ARM, but I am sure it isn't open software. Here's xenomai Real-Time Framework for Linux running on an embedded arm board:- http://www.federicololli.com/xenomaifoxg20.htm Can LinuxCNC use xenomai? Bill Thanks for the pointer, Bill. I had not seen this work. Your question may be moot. My old eyes aren't what they used to be but squinting at the screen capture of the latency test results, the sampling period appears to be 1000us and the latency appears to range between 0.9681 to 68.798, hence we're looking at a range of 968us to 68798us. This is huge compared to, say, the 10us Intel Atom results posted to our Wiki. I hope the situation gets better with time, because I like having choices. I'm just not holding my breath:-) Regards, Kent -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Raspberry pi integration?
On 5/10/2012 10:27 AM, dave wrote: On Thu, 10 May 2012 00:43:12 -0400 Kent A. Reedkentallanr...@gmail.com wrote: snip Slightly OT but if one wants a non-intel cpu for motion control take a look at Mesa's SOFTDMC. Implements a configurable accel/decel, jerk limited and very fast servo cycle (= 50 KHz ). The interp, etc would run on the intel and the SOFTDMC in the FPGA handles motion. What it needs is a interface between the motion nml messages and the format used by the FPGA. I've heard rumors of someone having gotten half way thru an implementation but quit working on it. Don't think I every got a name. :-( Sorry, just had to rattle the cage. Dave, this is no more OT than the original thread was. I love distributed control but it seems to me the sub-USD100 Intel Atom-based integrated motherboards have sucked the air out of the room. They're good enough and cheap enough. It's almost embarrassing for me to have become such a stick-in-the-mud. From the time I was a teenager, I was the one constantly pressing for innovative technical solutions. It took a long time to realize that our if we build it they will come projects often resulted in we built it but nobody came (so we wrote a report!). I used to believe our problem was that others were afraid of change. In my dotage, I've come to realize that we didn't provide adequate reason for others to change. From my admittedly biased perspective, the best argument for this distributed-functionality approach is the need to future-proof ourselves against the decline and fall of the traditional PC based on the x86-architecture. (which, like the news of the death of Mark Twain, is greatly exaggerated but not inevitable). Regards, Kent -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Raspberry pi integration?
On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 1:36 PM, Kent A. Reed kentallanr...@gmail.comwrote: I love distributed control but it seems to me the sub-USD100 Intel Atom-based integrated motherboards have sucked the air out of the room. They're good enough and cheap enough. When the P4 came around and had the horrible latency problems I thought the days of pc-based control may have been coming to an end. Fortunately, latency bothers all users, not just real-time users, and they have reduced latency problems. Although the SMI seems to be still an issue, which seems crazy to me. I have a little trouble understanding why Arduino is such a popular platform for gcode interpreters and motion control. They are expensive, inflexible and only suitable for step/dir systems. You still need a pc. At least the ARM boards have the potential for replacing the PC, but a Beagleboard is more expensive than a much more capable Atom. We are using Beagleboards for our autonomous robots, that is a really good place for them. Eric Keller Boalsburg, PA -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Raspberry pi integration?
On 5/10/2012 1:50 PM, Eric Keller wrote: We are using Beagleboards for our autonomous robots, that is a really good place for them. Exactly my interest. Microcontroller-based solutions pale in comparison. Regards, Kent -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Raspberry pi integration?
Scott Hasse wrote: I presume many of you have seen the hype on the Raspberry Pi. Am I correct in thinking that getting LinuxCNC to run on one of those would require an arm-specific RTAI and drivers for the device-specific I/O? Has anyone else given any thought to this potentially disruptive platform in the context of LinuxCNC? Yes, a couple years ago we heavily discussed porting to the Beagle Board, with the Cortex A8 CPU. The Beagle has 256 MB of RAM and can use an SD card for a hard drive. It runs a very nice Linux system, and you can do development right on the Beagle. But, there is no RTAI port yet on it, even though I supplied a Beagle Board at my expense to the ARM maintainer of RTAI. I have also developed a prototype parallel port converter for the Beagle, and tested it to work with my boards that normally work on the PC's EPP parallel port. Jon -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Raspberry pi integration?
Kent A. Reed wrote: As for the ARM-specific real-time Linux that definitely is required, Jon has been waiting for several years for RT-Linux to be ported satisfactorily to the BeagleBoard. Slight error, it is RTAI that is not yet available on the Beagle. I believe RT-Preempt may be available already. Jon -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Raspberry pi integration?
Eric Keller wrote: At least the ARM boards have the potential for replacing the PC, but a Beagleboard is more expensive than a much more capable Atom. This may not be quite true. The Beagle has integrated memory, and can use very cheap (4G, 8G) SD cards for hard drive. The Atom needs to have a memory stick added, plus most setups use a DOM SATA drive which is a lot more expensive than an SD card. Also, the Beagle runs off 5 V DC, which you might already have available in the machine control box. The original Beagle is now $125, and the Beagle Bone is much less (but missing a few things). Jon -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Raspberry pi integration?
On Thu, 10 May 2012 13:36:42 -0400 Kent A. Reed kentallanr...@gmail.com wrote: On 5/10/2012 10:27 AM, dave wrote: On Thu, 10 May 2012 00:43:12 -0400 Kent A. Reedkentallanr...@gmail.com wrote: snip Slightly OT but if one wants a non-intel cpu for motion control take a look at Mesa's SOFTDMC. Implements a configurable accel/decel, jerk limited and very fast servo cycle (= 50 KHz ). The interp, etc would run on the intel and the SOFTDMC in the FPGA handles motion. What it needs is a interface between the motion nml messages and the format used by the FPGA. I've heard rumors of someone having gotten half way thru an implementation but quit working on it. Don't think I every got a name. :-( Sorry, just had to rattle the cage. Dave, this is no more OT than the original thread was. I love distributed control but it seems to me the sub-USD100 Intel Atom-based integrated motherboards have sucked the air out of the room. They're good enough and cheap enough. It's almost embarrassing for me to have become such a stick-in-the-mud. From the time I was a teenager, I was the one constantly pressing for innovative technical solutions. It took a long time to realize that our if we build it they will come projects often resulted in we built it but nobody came (so we wrote a report!). I used to believe our problem was that others were afraid of change. In my dotage, I've come to realize that we didn't provide adequate reason for others to change. From my admittedly biased perspective, the best argument for this distributed-functionality approach is the need to future-proof ourselves against the decline and fall of the traditional PC based on the x86-architecture. (which, like the news of the death of Mark Twain, is greatly exaggerated but not inevitable). Regards, Kent SOFTDMC is not a slam dunk but still interesting in terms of being jerk limited and very fast. Probably wouldn't cure problems for enough people to make it worth the work of writing the driver. I've had a 510 board around here for awhile and about to upgrade to 2.5 We'll see if it cures some of my problems with nml communication. It would be really nice if offsets not only showed up internally, which they usually do, but also on the display. Also, even with G64 P .001 I get slight hesitation between even long segments, eg. 2-5 inches. Dave -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Raspberry pi integration?
On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 8:51 PM, Scott Hasse scott.ha...@gmail.com wrote: I presume many of you have seen the hype on the Raspberry Pi. Am I correct in thinking that getting LinuxCNC to run on one of those would require an arm-specific RTAI and drivers for the device-specific I/O? Has anyone else given any thought to this potentially disruptive platform in the context of LinuxCNC? Scott I was thinking about the same thing. I did do some search to see there are folks selling real time software for the ARM, but I am sure it isn't open software. The RepRap stuff is running on an ArduinoMAX g-code interpreter. But the implementation I need to get others to deal with... it's a bit above my current techie cred level. Still I think it could be a great item, even if it was LinuxCNC-Lite (g-code only, do display on another machine (possibly another Raspberry Pi), really just the basic of the basics). ... A thought. ... Jack -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Raspberry pi integration?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 5/9/2012 8:51 PM, Scott Hasse wrote: I presume many of you have seen the hype on the Raspberry Pi. Am I correct in thinking that getting LinuxCNC to run on one of those would require an arm-specific RTAI and drivers for the device-specific I/O? Has anyone else given any thought to this potentially disruptive platform in the context of LinuxCNC? Scour the dev list archives. There's some work in progress to get LinuxCNC running under a mainstream kernel with PREEMPT_RT, which should make it much easier to port to alternate architectures (although if you're currently using just a parallel port you may need some hardware support like a Mesa card or something). IIRC, there were also some folks talking about porting to a Beagle Board awhile back in the archives. Any progress made there could be used to leverage into Raspberry Pi support. - -- Charles Steinkuehler char...@steinkuehler.net -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk+rJw8ACgkQLywbqEHdNFyb1gCgoQDZEL1ppbEpa3HxSTK7+xDV HpUAn10Z1PvGBZ3iSA6S4AmdyTY/z5l6 =BbrI -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Raspberry pi integration?
On 5/9/2012 9:51 PM, Scott Hasse wrote: I presume many of you have seen the hype on the Raspberry Pi. Am I correct in thinking that getting LinuxCNC to run on one of those would require an arm-specific RTAI and drivers for the device-specific I/O? Has anyone else given any thought to this potentially disruptive platform in the context of LinuxCNC? Scott Scott: Call me an old cynic, but I'm not sure what is so disruptive about the Raspberry Pi in the context of LinuxCNC. (Keep in mind that I had already passed 50 when the term disruptive innovation was coined back in 1995.) In my opinion, the cost of the computational platform is no longer a real factor in a LinuxCNC system. If the Raspberry Pi is made to work in this context, then by buying the Model B at USD35, I've potentially reduced the overall cost of my LinuxCNC system by perhaps USD100 compared to picking an Intel Atom board which is already known to work well in this application right out of the box. That's pretty small beer compared to the total cost of ownership. The cost difference drops to just USD50 if I pick an ARM-based BeagleBone (which presumably can be made to work if the Raspberry Pi can). I agree the smaller form factor and lower power consumption of many ARM-based boards are nice, but they aren't a game changer for me as an end user. Ask Jon Elson for a different opinion as an interested party who is a component vendor and system integrator. As for the ARM-specific real-time Linux that definitely is required, Jon has been waiting for several years for RT-Linux to be ported satisfactorily to the BeagleBoard. While the current developmental Preempt-RT work being done with LinuxCNC is encouraging and might port more easily, we don't know yet if it will give satisfactory performance on x86-class boards let alone on any of the many ARM-class boards. And, yes, there's the problem of interfacing the Raspberry Pi to any real-world equipment. Jon Elson has reported on progress in the specific case of his BeagleBoard. Don't get me wrong, I have two ARM-based systems running Linux on my bench that I am playing with and I put in my reservation for a Raspberry Pi a while ago just because, but they are intended for other applications. Intel Atom-based motherboards remain my choice for LinuxCNC. Live long and prosper :-) Regards, Kent -- Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
