Re: [-empyre-] reply to Sally Silvers

[Murat Nemet-Nejat]

--empyre- soft-skinned space--I will when I am back from Asia where I am now on January 10, 2017.

Murat

On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 4:54 PM, Bruce Andrews  wrote:

> --empyre- soft-skinned space--
> Signing off as well, thanks to Murat & Sally & Christopher & responders
> Posted a final piece of poetry yesterday; drop me a line to stay in touch.
> Bruce
>
> On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 11:30 PM, Sally Silvers 
> wrote:
>
>> --empyre- soft-skinned space--
>> Ok, signing off on our week of empyre at 11:30 pm.
>> Thanks Murat for inviting  me and thanks to all for the exchanges.
>>
>> Sally
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 12:39 AM, Murat Nemet-Nejat 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> --empyre- soft-skinned space--
>>> Hi Sally,
>>>
>>> "... Maybe that's where the money is but they are most interested in
>>> creating 'empathy' experiences so that users will actually feel for
>>> instance, the plight of say Syrian refugees as if 'in the flesh'.  It made
>>> me wonder if this would eventually inure people even more to human or
>>> planet disasters."
>>>
>>> Yes, it seems to be exactly where the danger is: confusing the images
>>> (or languages) in the web with the reality behind them.
>>>
>>> "Mining the web" that Flarf practiced also was pregnant with the same
>>> danger.
>>>
>>>
>>> "... The Red Shoes, which has some of the best dance sequences on film
>>> (even though I'm not a fan of ballet particularly)"
>>>
>>> That's why I asked you what you thought of The Red Shoes. That film
>>> seems to be the exception. A vision of what film may do.
>>>
>>> Ciao,
>>> Murat
>>>
>>> On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 5:26 PM, Sally Silvers 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 --empyre- soft-skinned space--
 Also, Chris, I looked at the video attachments of you playing guitar &
 reading with the animated letters/words and the other one with live music
 and films of underlined words and a second screen of more abstract
 visuals.  I am very curious about both and wondered how my attention would
 go if I saw it live.  (It was hard to hear your words in the 1st one).

 Bruce Andrews did a collaboration with the  graphic design artist, Dirk
 Rowntree in which Dirk so abstracted the typeface that the words were no
 longer legible.  I also think of  type designer & surfer, David Carson 
 (*The
 End of Type*) here too or visual artist, Bruce Pierson whose
 abstractions are also built from words.  For me when the words become pure
 abstract visuals it is somehow more satisfying than when I can read the
 words and have to care about the meaning.  Maybe that is the difference
 between visual art (in which I generally prefer abstraction) and words (in
 which I find I want to discover something more social).  Not sure.

 I am used to seeing films with laptop music as a relatively new genre.
 It always seemed like the film was compensating somewhat for the lack of
 the expected visual of seeing a musician with a more traditional
 instrument.  Because otherwise why go to live laptop music when the sound
 is the same as playing it on your own computer?  Audience will go to hear
 live acoustic or plugged in usual instruments; there's a long tradition for
 that. But when it's live musicians  'playing' their laptops, they want
 something visual to go along with it and thus a genre was born.

 Whereas it seems that Chris is adding layers and complicating the basic
 situation of live music.  I wonder, Chris, if feedback has been that's it's
 'too much' to hear words and watch them at the same time?

  I just saw a dance performance with animated  word/letter visuals by
 Kay Rosen on the backdrop and on the floor.  Letters turned into words and
 words went sideways and up and down, all done very subtly, wittily, and
 with slow changes.  (The dance lacked the humor that the words provided)  I
 didn't mind being distracted from the dance by my fascination with the
 design, but the critics complained about it.  I was reminded of
 Cage/Cunningham's parallel universes of dance and sound which they compared
 to things vying for our attention as we walk down the street. Comparing
 this to offering a 'complete or unified" work (in the Wagnerian sense)  and
 what the political implications are for those 2 approaches.  Which one
 gives more freedom for the viewer?  I guess Brecht would say the former but
 so many seem to like to be absorbed into a work and forgetting the self.  I
 remember Cage saying he disliked the work of Phillip Glass and Steve Reich
 because it didn't give him any choices (not his exact words; my takeaway).

 Is forgetting the self like volunteering for brainwashing?  Is it like
 volunteering for your social position in the power hierarchy in the
 Foucau

Re: [-empyre-] reply to Sally Silvers

[Bruce Andrews]

--empyre- soft-skinned space--Signing off as well, thanks to Murat & Sally & Christopher & responders
Posted a final piece of poetry yesterday; drop me a line to stay in touch.
Bruce

On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 11:30 PM, Sally Silvers 
wrote:

> --empyre- soft-skinned space--
> Ok, signing off on our week of empyre at 11:30 pm.
> Thanks Murat for inviting  me and thanks to all for the exchanges.
>
> Sally
>
> On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 12:39 AM, Murat Nemet-Nejat 
> wrote:
>
>> --empyre- soft-skinned space--
>> Hi Sally,
>>
>> "... Maybe that's where the money is but they are most interested in
>> creating 'empathy' experiences so that users will actually feel for
>> instance, the plight of say Syrian refugees as if 'in the flesh'.  It made
>> me wonder if this would eventually inure people even more to human or
>> planet disasters."
>>
>> Yes, it seems to be exactly where the danger is: confusing the images (or
>> languages) in the web with the reality behind them.
>>
>> "Mining the web" that Flarf practiced also was pregnant with the same
>> danger.
>>
>>
>> "... The Red Shoes, which has some of the best dance sequences on film
>> (even though I'm not a fan of ballet particularly)"
>>
>> That's why I asked you what you thought of The Red Shoes. That film seems
>> to be the exception. A vision of what film may do.
>>
>> Ciao,
>> Murat
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 5:26 PM, Sally Silvers 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> --empyre- soft-skinned space--
>>> Also, Chris, I looked at the video attachments of you playing guitar &
>>> reading with the animated letters/words and the other one with live music
>>> and films of underlined words and a second screen of more abstract
>>> visuals.  I am very curious about both and wondered how my attention would
>>> go if I saw it live.  (It was hard to hear your words in the 1st one).
>>>
>>> Bruce Andrews did a collaboration with the  graphic design artist, Dirk
>>> Rowntree in which Dirk so abstracted the typeface that the words were no
>>> longer legible.  I also think of  type designer & surfer, David Carson (*The
>>> End of Type*) here too or visual artist, Bruce Pierson whose
>>> abstractions are also built from words.  For me when the words become pure
>>> abstract visuals it is somehow more satisfying than when I can read the
>>> words and have to care about the meaning.  Maybe that is the difference
>>> between visual art (in which I generally prefer abstraction) and words (in
>>> which I find I want to discover something more social).  Not sure.
>>>
>>> I am used to seeing films with laptop music as a relatively new genre.
>>> It always seemed like the film was compensating somewhat for the lack of
>>> the expected visual of seeing a musician with a more traditional
>>> instrument.  Because otherwise why go to live laptop music when the sound
>>> is the same as playing it on your own computer?  Audience will go to hear
>>> live acoustic or plugged in usual instruments; there's a long tradition for
>>> that. But when it's live musicians  'playing' their laptops, they want
>>> something visual to go along with it and thus a genre was born.
>>>
>>> Whereas it seems that Chris is adding layers and complicating the basic
>>> situation of live music.  I wonder, Chris, if feedback has been that's it's
>>> 'too much' to hear words and watch them at the same time?
>>>
>>>  I just saw a dance performance with animated  word/letter visuals by
>>> Kay Rosen on the backdrop and on the floor.  Letters turned into words and
>>> words went sideways and up and down, all done very subtly, wittily, and
>>> with slow changes.  (The dance lacked the humor that the words provided)  I
>>> didn't mind being distracted from the dance by my fascination with the
>>> design, but the critics complained about it.  I was reminded of
>>> Cage/Cunningham's parallel universes of dance and sound which they compared
>>> to things vying for our attention as we walk down the street. Comparing
>>> this to offering a 'complete or unified" work (in the Wagnerian sense)  and
>>> what the political implications are for those 2 approaches.  Which one
>>> gives more freedom for the viewer?  I guess Brecht would say the former but
>>> so many seem to like to be absorbed into a work and forgetting the self.  I
>>> remember Cage saying he disliked the work of Phillip Glass and Steve Reich
>>> because it didn't give him any choices (not his exact words; my takeaway).
>>>
>>> Is forgetting the self like volunteering for brainwashing?  Is it like
>>> volunteering for your social position in the power hierarchy in the
>>> Foucaultian sense?
>>>
>>> Sally
>>>
>>> On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 4:41 PM, Sally Silvers 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 I am pleased to get the links on movement-based work that Craig and
 Chris sent.  I also looked at some Ted Talks presentations on Virtual
 Reality.  I discovered that most of the univ

Re: [-empyre-] reply to Sally Silvers

[Sally Silvers]

--empyre- soft-skinned space--Ok, signing off on our week of empyre at 11:30 pm.
Thanks Murat for inviting  me and thanks to all for the exchanges.

Sally

On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 12:39 AM, Murat Nemet-Nejat 
wrote:

> --empyre- soft-skinned space--
> Hi Sally,
>
> "... Maybe that's where the money is but they are most interested in
> creating 'empathy' experiences so that users will actually feel for
> instance, the plight of say Syrian refugees as if 'in the flesh'.  It made
> me wonder if this would eventually inure people even more to human or
> planet disasters."
>
> Yes, it seems to be exactly where the danger is: confusing the images (or
> languages) in the web with the reality behind them.
>
> "Mining the web" that Flarf practiced also was pregnant with the same
> danger.
>
>
> "... The Red Shoes, which has some of the best dance sequences on film
> (even though I'm not a fan of ballet particularly)"
>
> That's why I asked you what you thought of The Red Shoes. That film seems
> to be the exception. A vision of what film may do.
>
> Ciao,
> Murat
>
> On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 5:26 PM, Sally Silvers 
> wrote:
>
>> --empyre- soft-skinned space--
>> Also, Chris, I looked at the video attachments of you playing guitar &
>> reading with the animated letters/words and the other one with live music
>> and films of underlined words and a second screen of more abstract
>> visuals.  I am very curious about both and wondered how my attention would
>> go if I saw it live.  (It was hard to hear your words in the 1st one).
>>
>> Bruce Andrews did a collaboration with the  graphic design artist, Dirk
>> Rowntree in which Dirk so abstracted the typeface that the words were no
>> longer legible.  I also think of  type designer & surfer, David Carson (*The
>> End of Type*) here too or visual artist, Bruce Pierson whose
>> abstractions are also built from words.  For me when the words become pure
>> abstract visuals it is somehow more satisfying than when I can read the
>> words and have to care about the meaning.  Maybe that is the difference
>> between visual art (in which I generally prefer abstraction) and words (in
>> which I find I want to discover something more social).  Not sure.
>>
>> I am used to seeing films with laptop music as a relatively new genre.
>> It always seemed like the film was compensating somewhat for the lack of
>> the expected visual of seeing a musician with a more traditional
>> instrument.  Because otherwise why go to live laptop music when the sound
>> is the same as playing it on your own computer?  Audience will go to hear
>> live acoustic or plugged in usual instruments; there's a long tradition for
>> that. But when it's live musicians  'playing' their laptops, they want
>> something visual to go along with it and thus a genre was born.
>>
>> Whereas it seems that Chris is adding layers and complicating the basic
>> situation of live music.  I wonder, Chris, if feedback has been that's it's
>> 'too much' to hear words and watch them at the same time?
>>
>>  I just saw a dance performance with animated  word/letter visuals by Kay
>> Rosen on the backdrop and on the floor.  Letters turned into words and
>> words went sideways and up and down, all done very subtly, wittily, and
>> with slow changes.  (The dance lacked the humor that the words provided)  I
>> didn't mind being distracted from the dance by my fascination with the
>> design, but the critics complained about it.  I was reminded of
>> Cage/Cunningham's parallel universes of dance and sound which they compared
>> to things vying for our attention as we walk down the street. Comparing
>> this to offering a 'complete or unified" work (in the Wagnerian sense)  and
>> what the political implications are for those 2 approaches.  Which one
>> gives more freedom for the viewer?  I guess Brecht would say the former but
>> so many seem to like to be absorbed into a work and forgetting the self.  I
>> remember Cage saying he disliked the work of Phillip Glass and Steve Reich
>> because it didn't give him any choices (not his exact words; my takeaway).
>>
>> Is forgetting the self like volunteering for brainwashing?  Is it like
>> volunteering for your social position in the power hierarchy in the
>> Foucaultian sense?
>>
>> Sally
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 4:41 PM, Sally Silvers 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I am pleased to get the links on movement-based work that Craig and
>>> Chris sent.  I also looked at some Ted Talks presentations on Virtual
>>> Reality.  I discovered that most of the universities that currently have
>>> departments devoted to VR are not exploring their 'art work' use as much as
>>> their social science potential.  Maybe that's where the money is but they
>>> are most interested in creating 'empathy' experiences so that users will
>>> actually feel for instance, the plight of say Syrian refugees as if 'in the
>>> flesh'.  It made me wo

Re: [-empyre-] reply to Sally Silvers

[Murat Nemet-Nejat]

--empyre- soft-skinned space--Hi Sally,

"... Maybe that's where the money is but they are most interested in
creating 'empathy' experiences so that users will actually feel for
instance, the plight of say Syrian refugees as if 'in the flesh'.  It made
me wonder if this would eventually inure people even more to human or
planet disasters."

Yes, it seems to be exactly where the danger is: confusing the images (or
languages) in the web with the reality behind them.

"Mining the web" that Flarf practiced also was pregnant with the same
danger.


"... The Red Shoes, which has some of the best dance sequences on film
(even though I'm not a fan of ballet particularly)"

That's why I asked you what you thought of The Red Shoes. That film seems
to be the exception. A vision of what film may do.

Ciao,
Murat

On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 5:26 PM, Sally Silvers 
wrote:

> --empyre- soft-skinned space--
> Also, Chris, I looked at the video attachments of you playing guitar &
> reading with the animated letters/words and the other one with live music
> and films of underlined words and a second screen of more abstract
> visuals.  I am very curious about both and wondered how my attention would
> go if I saw it live.  (It was hard to hear your words in the 1st one).
>
> Bruce Andrews did a collaboration with the  graphic design artist, Dirk
> Rowntree in which Dirk so abstracted the typeface that the words were no
> longer legible.  I also think of  type designer & surfer, David Carson (*The
> End of Type*) here too or visual artist, Bruce Pierson whose abstractions
> are also built from words.  For me when the words become pure abstract
> visuals it is somehow more satisfying than when I can read the words and
> have to care about the meaning.  Maybe that is the difference between
> visual art (in which I generally prefer abstraction) and words (in which I
> find I want to discover something more social).  Not sure.
>
> I am used to seeing films with laptop music as a relatively new genre.  It
> always seemed like the film was compensating somewhat for the lack of the
> expected visual of seeing a musician with a more traditional instrument.
> Because otherwise why go to live laptop music when the sound is the same as
> playing it on your own computer?  Audience will go to hear live acoustic or
> plugged in usual instruments; there's a long tradition for that. But when
> it's live musicians  'playing' their laptops, they want something visual to
> go along with it and thus a genre was born.
>
> Whereas it seems that Chris is adding layers and complicating the basic
> situation of live music.  I wonder, Chris, if feedback has been that's it's
> 'too much' to hear words and watch them at the same time?
>
>  I just saw a dance performance with animated  word/letter visuals by Kay
> Rosen on the backdrop and on the floor.  Letters turned into words and
> words went sideways and up and down, all done very subtly, wittily, and
> with slow changes.  (The dance lacked the humor that the words provided)  I
> didn't mind being distracted from the dance by my fascination with the
> design, but the critics complained about it.  I was reminded of
> Cage/Cunningham's parallel universes of dance and sound which they compared
> to things vying for our attention as we walk down the street. Comparing
> this to offering a 'complete or unified" work (in the Wagnerian sense)  and
> what the political implications are for those 2 approaches.  Which one
> gives more freedom for the viewer?  I guess Brecht would say the former but
> so many seem to like to be absorbed into a work and forgetting the self.  I
> remember Cage saying he disliked the work of Phillip Glass and Steve Reich
> because it didn't give him any choices (not his exact words; my takeaway).
>
> Is forgetting the self like volunteering for brainwashing?  Is it like
> volunteering for your social position in the power hierarchy in the
> Foucaultian sense?
>
> Sally
>
> On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 4:41 PM, Sally Silvers 
> wrote:
>
>> I am pleased to get the links on movement-based work that Craig and Chris
>> sent.  I also looked at some Ted Talks presentations on Virtual Reality.  I
>> discovered that most of the universities that currently have departments
>> devoted to VR are not exploring their 'art work' use as much as their
>> social science potential.  Maybe that's where the money is but they are
>> most interested in creating 'empathy' experiences so that users will
>> actually feel for instance, the plight of say Syrian refugees as if 'in the
>> flesh'.  It made me wonder if this would eventually inure people even more
>> to human or planet disasters.  Just like photographs can shock at first but
>> then coming to terms with them over time dulls the senses.  Could it make
>> it even easier to step over homeless people (eg.) if these worldwide
>> disasters are brought into our living room?
>>
>> That's an aside, but 

Re: [-empyre-] reply to Sally Silvers

[Sally Silvers]

--empyre- soft-skinned space--Also, Chris, I looked at the video attachments of you playing guitar &
reading with the animated letters/words and the other one with live music
and films of underlined words and a second screen of more abstract
visuals.  I am very curious about both and wondered how my attention would
go if I saw it live.  (It was hard to hear your words in the 1st one).

Bruce Andrews did a collaboration with the  graphic design artist, Dirk
Rowntree in which Dirk so abstracted the typeface that the words were no
longer legible.  I also think of  type designer & surfer, David Carson (*The
End of Type*) here too or visual artist, Bruce Pierson whose abstractions
are also built from words.  For me when the words become pure abstract
visuals it is somehow more satisfying than when I can read the words and
have to care about the meaning.  Maybe that is the difference between
visual art (in which I generally prefer abstraction) and words (in which I
find I want to discover something more social).  Not sure.

I am used to seeing films with laptop music as a relatively new genre.  It
always seemed like the film was compensating somewhat for the lack of the
expected visual of seeing a musician with a more traditional instrument.
Because otherwise why go to live laptop music when the sound is the same as
playing it on your own computer?  Audience will go to hear live acoustic or
plugged in usual instruments; there's a long tradition for that. But when
it's live musicians  'playing' their laptops, they want something visual to
go along with it and thus a genre was born.

Whereas it seems that Chris is adding layers and complicating the basic
situation of live music.  I wonder, Chris, if feedback has been that's it's
'too much' to hear words and watch them at the same time?

 I just saw a dance performance with animated  word/letter visuals by Kay
Rosen on the backdrop and on the floor.  Letters turned into words and
words went sideways and up and down, all done very subtly, wittily, and
with slow changes.  (The dance lacked the humor that the words provided)  I
didn't mind being distracted from the dance by my fascination with the
design, but the critics complained about it.  I was reminded of
Cage/Cunningham's parallel universes of dance and sound which they compared
to things vying for our attention as we walk down the street. Comparing
this to offering a 'complete or unified" work (in the Wagnerian sense)  and
what the political implications are for those 2 approaches.  Which one
gives more freedom for the viewer?  I guess Brecht would say the former but
so many seem to like to be absorbed into a work and forgetting the self.  I
remember Cage saying he disliked the work of Phillip Glass and Steve Reich
because it didn't give him any choices (not his exact words; my takeaway).

Is forgetting the self like volunteering for brainwashing?  Is it like
volunteering for your social position in the power hierarchy in the
Foucaultian sense?

Sally

On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 4:41 PM, Sally Silvers 
wrote:

> I am pleased to get the links on movement-based work that Craig and Chris
> sent.  I also looked at some Ted Talks presentations on Virtual Reality.  I
> discovered that most of the universities that currently have departments
> devoted to VR are not exploring their 'art work' use as much as their
> social science potential.  Maybe that's where the money is but they are
> most interested in creating 'empathy' experiences so that users will
> actually feel for instance, the plight of say Syrian refugees as if 'in the
> flesh'.  It made me wonder if this would eventually inure people even more
> to human or planet disasters.  Just like photographs can shock at first but
> then coming to terms with them over time dulls the senses.  Could it make
> it even easier to step over homeless people (eg.) if these worldwide
> disasters are brought into our living room?
>
> That's an aside, but I'm going to explore the possibilities of a movement
> residency with one of these departments.  Can you imagine feeling like you
> are dancing with Fred Astaire, or in the movie, The Red Shoes, which has
> some of the best dance sequences on film (even though I'm not a fan of
> ballet particularly).  Or being in one of my dances? Apparently it's really
> easy to get motion sickness from VR so I'm curious about advancements on
> that front too.
>
> Sally
>
> On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 4:48 AM, Sally Silvers 
> wrote:
>
>> Thanks, Craig,  Happy to have a link to explore & connect with.  I'm
>> aware that my doubt makes it easy for me to deny interest.  Something to
>> overcome.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Nov 27, 2016 at 8:06 AM, Craig Saper  wrote:
>>
>>> --empyre- soft-skinned space--
>>> Sally
>>>
>>> You wrote: “… not yet a way to transform the most common form of
>>> movement notation (Labanotation) into video action … and [you are looking
>>> for, but not finding] magical animate

Re: [-empyre-] reply to Sally Silvers

[Sally Silvers]

--empyre- soft-skinned space--I am pleased to get the links on movement-based work that Craig and Chris
sent.  I also looked at some Ted Talks presentations on Virtual Reality.  I
discovered that most of the universities that currently have departments
devoted to VR are not exploring their 'art work' use as much as their
social science potential.  Maybe that's where the money is but they are
most interested in creating 'empathy' experiences so that users will
actually feel for instance, the plight of say Syrian refugees as if 'in the
flesh'.  It made me wonder if this would eventually inure people even more
to human or planet disasters.  Just like photographs can shock at first but
then coming to terms with them over time dulls the senses.  Could it make
it even easier to step over homeless people (eg.) if these worldwide
disasters are brought into our living room?

That's an aside, but I'm going to explore the possibilities of a movement
residency with one of these departments.  Can you imagine feeling like you
are dancing with Fred Astaire, or in the movie, The Red Shoes, which has
some of the best dance sequences on film (even though I'm not a fan of
ballet particularly).  Or being in one of my dances? Apparently it's really
easy to get motion sickness from VR so I'm curious about advancements on
that front too.

Sally

On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 4:48 AM, Sally Silvers 
wrote:

> Thanks, Craig,  Happy to have a link to explore & connect with.  I'm aware
> that my doubt makes it easy for me to deny interest.  Something to overcome.
>
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 27, 2016 at 8:06 AM, Craig Saper  wrote:
>
>> --empyre- soft-skinned space--
>> Sally
>>
>> You wrote: “… not yet a way to transform the most common form of
>> movement notation (Labanotation) into video action … and [you are looking
>> for, but not finding] magical animated movies [related to the] felt body”
>>
>> Do you know Leslie Bishko’s (at Emily Carr) [
>> https://labanforanimators.wordpress.com/leslie-bishko/ ] … work that
>> uses Labanotation to create “expressive movement in computer animation”
>>
>> Also, do you study Feldenkrais Method that influenced an earlier
>> generation of experimental animators — especially Sky David?
>>
>> The connections among dance/movement and experimental animation is
>> probably stymied by disciplinary boundaries in colleges — the dancers want
>> the “documentation” that you discuss below and the media-makers want to use
>> dancers to “sell music” [music videos], and poetry is … Well, all this to
>> say — it is too rare to have someone translate and adapt a theoretical
>> essay into “dance-poems”
>>
>> Craig
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Nov 26, 2016, at 10:58 PM, Sally Silvers 
>> wrote:
>>
>> --empyre- soft-skinned space--
>> Completely overwhelmed by Thanksgiving and the aftermaths.  But...  hope
>> everyone  who celebrated had a great one.
>>
>> Responding to Chris's sense of code and connecting it to poetry and music
>> projects, and cyborgian relationships to the body, I did a  dance piece
>> (right after 9/11) on cyborgs and nuns  to make the connection between nuns
>> who were the first 'feminists' of their time — choosing god and celibacy in
>> order to gain access to education & to avoid forced pregnancy and
>> motherhood — & the cyborg as a challenge to patriarchal-based dualities.
>>
>> I also wrote an essay on Donna Haraway's "A Cyborg Manifesto" that Chris
>> mentions as being so influential for him as well.
>>
>> http://www.sallysilversdance.com/essays
>>
>> In my dance (*Strike Me Lighting*) the first half was devoted to nuns
>> and the 2nd half to cyborgs.  I remember it was much easier to set in
>> motion nuns than it was cyborgs.  All the kneeling, contemplating,
>> in-fighting, and undercover sex, so to speak, had more oomph than bodies
>> with mechanical parts.  The stiff robot move gets old fast.  I ended up
>> having to use a lot of photographs from books on cyborgs and spatializing
>> the moves with things like star constellation floor patterns.
>>
>> I find this to be true online as well.  The body may be the last thing to
>> be made digital in a non-reduced form or in a fresh translated form. Unless
>> you think of dance videos as a stand alone form & mostly I don't as they
>> mostly seem like a translation of the body into something to sell music or
>> glamorize some other product. Of course there are some exceptions to this
>> as when the form of video and the form of dance/movement make a new concept
>> -- when the language of each is not diminished. But most of the dance on
>> film or via computer that I've seen seems like documentation or
>> romanticized body angles.
>>
>> Video on-line is never as satisfying as the body live.  (well maybe
>> toddlers & animals get a pass).  There is not yet a way to transform the
>> most common form of movement notation (Labanotation) into video
>> action.There is clum

Re: [-empyre-] reply to Sally Silvers

[Sally Silvers]

--empyre- soft-skinned space--Thanks, Craig,  Happy to have a link to explore & connect with.  I'm aware
that my doubt makes it easy for me to deny interest.  Something to overcome.



On Sun, Nov 27, 2016 at 8:06 AM, Craig Saper  wrote:

> --empyre- soft-skinned space--
> Sally
>
> You wrote: “… not yet a way to transform the most common form of movement
> notation (Labanotation) into video action … and [you are looking for, but
> not finding] magical animated movies [related to the] felt body”
>
> Do you know Leslie Bishko’s (at Emily Carr) [ https://labanforanimators.
> wordpress.com/leslie-bishko/ ] … work that uses Labanotation to create
> “expressive movement in computer animation”
>
> Also, do you study Feldenkrais Method that influenced an earlier
> generation of experimental animators — especially Sky David?
>
> The connections among dance/movement and experimental animation is
> probably stymied by disciplinary boundaries in colleges — the dancers want
> the “documentation” that you discuss below and the media-makers want to use
> dancers to “sell music” [music videos], and poetry is … Well, all this to
> say — it is too rare to have someone translate and adapt a theoretical
> essay into “dance-poems”
>
> Craig
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Nov 26, 2016, at 10:58 PM, Sally Silvers 
> wrote:
>
> --empyre- soft-skinned space--
> Completely overwhelmed by Thanksgiving and the aftermaths.  But...  hope
> everyone  who celebrated had a great one.
>
> Responding to Chris's sense of code and connecting it to poetry and music
> projects, and cyborgian relationships to the body, I did a  dance piece
> (right after 9/11) on cyborgs and nuns  to make the connection between nuns
> who were the first 'feminists' of their time — choosing god and celibacy in
> order to gain access to education & to avoid forced pregnancy and
> motherhood — & the cyborg as a challenge to patriarchal-based dualities.
>
> I also wrote an essay on Donna Haraway's "A Cyborg Manifesto" that Chris
> mentions as being so influential for him as well.
>
> http://www.sallysilversdance.com/essays
>
> In my dance (*Strike Me Lighting*) the first half was devoted to nuns and
> the 2nd half to cyborgs.  I remember it was much easier to set in motion
> nuns than it was cyborgs.  All the kneeling, contemplating, in-fighting,
> and undercover sex, so to speak, had more oomph than bodies with mechanical
> parts.  The stiff robot move gets old fast.  I ended up having to use a lot
> of photographs from books on cyborgs and spatializing the moves with things
> like star constellation floor patterns.
>
> I find this to be true online as well.  The body may be the last thing to
> be made digital in a non-reduced form or in a fresh translated form. Unless
> you think of dance videos as a stand alone form & mostly I don't as they
> mostly seem like a translation of the body into something to sell music or
> glamorize some other product. Of course there are some exceptions to this
> as when the form of video and the form of dance/movement make a new concept
> -- when the language of each is not diminished. But most of the dance on
> film or via computer that I've seen seems like documentation or
> romanticized body angles.
>
> Video on-line is never as satisfying as the body live.  (well maybe
> toddlers & animals get a pass).  There is not yet a way to transform the
> most common form of movement notation (Labanotation) into video
> action.There is clumsy software that Merce Cunningham mastered which mostly
> works with given movement combinations and vocabulary and allows you to
> recombine or select parts of the body, but it's not that easy to use to
> make something interesting for the computer itself; it's mostly a tool for
> rehearsal.
>
> When gravity is absent, movement is hard to design.
>
> I am still trying to imagine what a combination of movement and digital
> art could be without it seeming gimmicky.
>
> I've seen performances with robots (cute), sound triggered electronically
> by dancers' bodies (so what), abstractions made by putting light/sensor
> points on the body (like trees wrapped in xmas lights —very pretty), but so
> far I have not seen or heard of anything that would allow actual
> interaction or that makes chance or algorithms  very available or
> interesting.  I'm waiting for virtual reality to at least make it more real
> and felt for the viewer because 3-d has been somewhat of a bust.  I have
> hopes for all these things but as of yet, nothing is as appealing to me as
> actually working on the live body.  The computer is a luddite when it comes
> to dance/choreography.
>
> When I google digital dance or computer dance, few programs come up —
> mostly for managing the business side of a dance school!
>
> Of course, there are all these incredible, magical animated movies, but I
> still remain interested in the felt body, the body with weight, that
> 

Re: [-empyre-] reply to Sally Silvers

[Craig Saper]

--empyre- soft-skinned space--Sally

You wrote: “… not yet a way to transform the most common form of movement 
notation (Labanotation) into video action … and [you are looking for, but not 
finding] magical animated movies [related to the] felt body”

Do you know Leslie Bishko’s (at Emily Carr) [ 
https://labanforanimators.wordpress.com/leslie-bishko/ 
 ] … work that uses 
Labanotation to create “expressive movement in computer animation”

Also, do you study Feldenkrais Method that influenced an earlier generation of 
experimental animators — especially Sky David?

The connections among dance/movement and experimental animation is probably 
stymied by disciplinary boundaries in colleges — the dancers want the 
“documentation” that you discuss below and the media-makers want to use dancers 
to “sell music” [music videos], and poetry is … Well, all this to say — it is 
too rare to have someone translate and adapt a theoretical essay into 
“dance-poems”

Craig









On Nov 26, 2016, at 10:58 PM, Sally Silvers  wrote:

--empyre- soft-skinned space--
Completely overwhelmed by Thanksgiving and the aftermaths.  But...  hope 
everyone  who celebrated had a great one.

Responding to Chris's sense of code and connecting it to poetry and music 
projects, and cyborgian relationships to the body, I did a  dance piece (right 
after 9/11) on cyborgs and nuns  to make the connection between nuns who were 
the first 'feminists' of their time — choosing god and celibacy in order to 
gain access to education & to avoid forced pregnancy and motherhood — & the 
cyborg as a challenge to patriarchal-based dualities.  

I also wrote an essay on Donna Haraway's "A Cyborg Manifesto" that Chris 
mentions as being so influential for him as well.
 
http://www.sallysilversdance.com/essays 


In my dance (Strike Me Lighting) the first half was devoted to nuns and the 2nd 
half to cyborgs.  I remember it was much easier to set in motion nuns than it 
was cyborgs.  All the kneeling, contemplating, in-fighting, and undercover sex, 
so to speak, had more oomph than bodies with mechanical parts.  The stiff robot 
move gets old fast.  I ended up having to use a lot of photographs from books 
on cyborgs and spatializing the moves with things like star constellation floor 
patterns.  

I find this to be true online as well.  The body may be the last thing to be 
made digital in a non-reduced form or in a fresh translated form. Unless you 
think of dance videos as a stand alone form & mostly I don't as they mostly 
seem like a translation of the body into something to sell music or glamorize 
some other product. Of course there are some exceptions to this as when the 
form of video and the form of dance/movement make a new concept -- when the 
language of each is not diminished. But most of the dance on film or via 
computer that I've seen seems like documentation or romanticized body angles. 

Video on-line is never as satisfying as the body live.  (well maybe toddlers & 
animals get a pass).  There is not yet a way to transform the most common form 
of movement notation (Labanotation) into video action.There is clumsy software 
that Merce Cunningham mastered which mostly works with given movement 
combinations and vocabulary and allows you to recombine or select parts of the 
body, but it's not that easy to use to make something interesting for the 
computer itself; it's mostly a tool for rehearsal.  

When gravity is absent, movement is hard to design.

I am still trying to imagine what a combination of movement and digital art 
could be without it seeming gimmicky.

I've seen performances with robots (cute), sound triggered electronically by 
dancers' bodies (so what), abstractions made by putting light/sensor points on 
the body (like trees wrapped in xmas lights —very pretty), but so far I have 
not seen or heard of anything that would allow actual interaction or that makes 
chance or algorithms  very available or interesting.  I'm waiting for virtual 
reality to at least make it more real and felt for the viewer because 3-d has 
been somewhat of a bust.  I have hopes for all these things but as of yet, 
nothing is as appealing to me as actually working on the live body.  The 
computer is a luddite when it comes to dance/choreography.

When I google digital dance or computer dance, few programs come up — mostly 
for managing the business side of a dance school!  

Of course, there are all these incredible, magical animated movies, but I still 
remain interested in the felt body, the body with weight, that registers 
gravity  I'm waiting though; I'm eager for more knowledge on the possibilities 
of digital dance, in the way so many possibilities have been organized for 
digital poetry/language and digital music/sound.

Sally Silvers


On Sat, Nov 26, 2016 at 4:23 PM, Murat Nemet-Nejat m