Re: [-empyre-] animation and short term memory (was, a long time ago: interpreting datasets, etc)
Hi Simon, I agree that Patrick Smith is light in some ways, and to be honest, I show him in class as a classical animator making independent work. But it is interesting that you pick the one you do not like, as opposed to the one you did. Have not seen Michael Joaquin Grey, will check him out. I agree with your descriptions of narrative. For me it is not really that black and white. I still feel that some of the New Media Rules, Non-linear animation would require multiple streams or be generated on the fly, usually in response to user activity. implies that there is truth in chaos, and control is in some ways problematic. user activity often manifests itself as the narrative of the art opening, which is to me a pretty dry interface. I think that the idea of interactivity by an unblindfolded collaborator engaged in the content of the work, and on board with the works purpose, and someone with creative strengths, has a lot more potential than leaning towards, the unknowing, random outsider. I say this because the latter his been my most common model with interactive digital media. chris. Quoting Simon Biggs s.bi...@eca.ac.uk: Coming from digital arts rather than animation I probably have a stricter definition of non-linearity. What you are calling non-linearity I would call complex or multi-layered narrative or perhaps open narrative. Non-narrative would have no narrative at all, as in no plot, no story. This could be applied to abstract work, but even then there is usually some sort of logical development which can still be considered a narrative. Non-linearity, to me, involves things like coding, rapid access media, heuristics, etc. Conventional animation is linear as it is a single data stream that does not materially change. Non-linear animation would require multiple streams or be generated on the fly, usually in response to user activity. This is what I make but I don¹t consider it animation, although it uses many of its techniques. Did I like the work? I have been familiar with these makers for a long time. I use to attend and present at Siggraph, back in the 1980¹s, along with people like Duesing, Kawaguchi, Lasseter and others. My interest then was not animation but experimental digital art. However, at that time if you were into computers and creative practice then you tended to get tossed into the same box, even if your creative intent was profoundly different. I didn¹t warm to Patrick Smith¹s work it is conventional animation but with a hint of street-cred thrown in, some Keith Haring and Jean Dubuffet. This is evident in the paintings on his website too. Michael Joaquin Grey¹s work is more to my taste. Some of it reminded me of the early Vasulka¹s. Best Simon Simon Biggs s.bi...@eca.ac.uk si...@littlepig.org.uk Skype: simonbiggsuk http://www.littlepig.org.uk/ Research Professor edinburgh college of art http://www.eca.ac.uk/ Creative Interdisciplinary Research into CoLlaborative Environments http://www.eca.ac.uk/circle/ Electronic Literature as a Model of Creativity and Innovation in Practice http://www.elmcip.net/ From: christopher sullivan csu...@saic.edu Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 22:39:04 -0600 To: soft_skinned_space empyre@lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au, Simon Biggs s.bi...@eca.ac.uk Cc: soft_skinned_space empyre@lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au Subject: Re: [-empyre-] animation and short term memory (was, a long time ago: interpreting datasets, etc) Hi Simon, perhaps there are degrees of narrative linearity, for me there does not have to be a literal audience manipulation, or chance operation to create experiments in narrative, it is done in literature all the time. taking a film like Jim Duesings Tender bodies, or Nancy Andrews strange work, or lewis klahr, there is I think very interesting stuff going on. did you like the work you saw? that is all that maters for me. Chris Quoting Simon Biggs s.bi...@eca.ac.uk: I think I am little confused about what non-linear means in this context. I assume it to mean a time based artefact that can exist as a number of distinct material timelines. That is, the timeline bifurcates in various ways that allow the viewer to experience distinctly different aspects of the work. In my experience there are only two ways to do this. One is to use a hypermedia approach, such as the World Wide Web is predicated upon, which allows you to select from multiple routes through a number of possibilities. The other is to use generative techniques, where the viewer¹s interaction with the artefact causes it to re-author itself in real-time, the outcome most likely being a novel instance of the work that only that viewer will ever experience (this approach is more common in simulation based computer games). I have googled some of the names Chris suggested but so far as I could see they are making traditional linear animations. Am I missing something? Best Simon
Re: [-empyre-] animation and short term memory (was, a long time ago: interpreting datasets, etc)
I know that this is far away from the original point that Richard Wright was getting at in terms of memory and animation. But I do think that there are aspects of animation that do get tied up in questions of memory and production, which are expressed not through formal experiments, but through content. If you look, for instance, at Pixar's films (Toy Story, Cars, Monsters Inc, Wall-E, etc), there is a pervasive sense of loss and nostalgia (which reminds me of a conversation I had with Stephanie Boluk at DAC on melancholia.) Here, you have people who love animation working on a form beyond the brink of transformation (the employed animators that I know all prepared themselves for a Hollywood that needed lots of hands to draw things). Animation has become a highly rationalized endeavor, where the animation itself (beyond character design, storyboarding, etc) tend to be handled through automation or outsourcing. The highly paid labor has been reduced, primarily, to conceptual work. Maybe I am reading too much into this, but when I watched Toy Story or Cars, the big message seems to be that growth results in a form of forgetfulness. And this forgetfulness is a forgetfulness of intimacy, humanity, care. In live-action filmmaking, on the other hand, the estrangement produced by efficiency is different. In live action, the actors and crew still work in the presence of each other. However, to make movies more efficiently, the production of the film exists outside of the narrative flow of the film. The director shoots all the scenes at a particular location at once. And then it is assembled by an editor. This means that for some people, working on a film is the experience of little arcs of narration held together by scene. Yet the larger narrative structure of the the production process is organized by the logic of proximity. Perhaps the narrative differences between animation and live action have more to do with the aesthetics of the relationships between workers and management than with the avant-garde impulse? Peace! Davin ___ empyre forum empyre@lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au http://www.subtle.net/empyre
Re: [-empyre-] Animation and desire
After many years, last week it so happened that I had my first ever opportunity to produce a walk cycle. It was quite a magical moment, to make this little apeman shuffle across the screen as though I was teaching him how to take his first steps. It reminded me just how powerful the practice of animation is for the animator, how it can feel less like being creative and more like an actual act of creation. Despite the fact that we are very much aware of the technical way in which animation is produced, we know the rules and the skills involved, its conditions of production are often no more open to question than the image of the heroic, lone artist animator invoking an illusion of life like the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel. Paradoxical that such a potentially open and materialistic practice could generate (through a displaced sense of wonderment?) such romantic modes of subjectivity. I am reminded of an interview with Bruno Latour for the current Animism show in Antwerp where he reacted to an interviewers question with Animation isn't magic. It's science. You cannot do magic! But then he does have a very particular view of science... For one way to resolve this once and for all, please see the following: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpoLkKYsUDE Richard On 2 Mar 2010, at 13:17, Thomas LaMarre, Prof. wrote: There have been so many interesting threads to which I have wanted to contribute over the past couple weeks, but unfortunately (even as we were discussing temporality) time seemed in short supply (especially since I went away on holiday). So I hope it doesn’t seem too awkward to make some comments now, as a sort of general response to prior threads. I have really enjoyed the discussions of animation techniques and instruction, the stream of references to so many talented animators, and the overall sensitivity to the diversity of animation production, distribution, and reception. These threads have made me think of animation or animations in a very different way. And I found myself thinking about some very old questions about the relation between techno-aesthetic forms and socio- economic forms. It’s clear that for a lot of us the techniques and aesthetics of animation are a powerful draw, and even through this month on this list we’re creating a sense of a deeper appreciation of making, watching, and thinking about animation. Because we like animation techniques so much, and because we’re forming a sort of public around this, this gives us a sense of being able to see the process of production in the moving images called animations. Particularly with respect to more experimental fare or smaller scale production, we tend to focus on the effects of production techniques. Or at least I find myself moving in that direction, probably because I get very geeky about animation. So this made me wonder about the extent to which it is possible to read images in terms of intentionally deployed techniques, and to read techniques in terms of social form or production dynamics. I think it was Richard who issued a challenge by underscoring that the techno-aesthetic is not in the software but in how the implications of the software are worked out. It was a truism of kind of analysis inherited loosely from Marxist analysis and ideology critique that works of art to some extent ‘negate’ their conditions of production. Not negate in the sense of erasing, but in the sensing of masking or distorting or transforming them. For one kind of ideology critique the goal of analytics was to read the contradictions within the work of art back to the conditions of production, as a sort of ideological distortion. In any case, it wasn’t enough to call on the intentions of the artist or author as a final explanation. There were broader ideological issues. Psychoanalytic criticism gradually transformed this understanding, by shifting our reading of difficulties of the image toward the unconscious rather than material conditions of production. So there was something deeper than the wills of creators, or historical material conditions (but related to them) — something like a subject formation or a configuration of desire. In other words, in animation studies, there are still these very large almost unmanageable questions about how the sites of indeterminacy in material technics (say, software) are worked out — and questions about the levels at which are we addressing this — at the level of the artist, of the school, of studios, of movements, of fans or publics, material conditions, or desire? Obviously, things get sorted out in all these registers, but to make that a conclusion seems to me to neutralize any sense of there being something at stake in thinking through animation specifically, and asking what animation today makes us
Re: [-empyre-] animation and gender
I think Miwa's work is really wonderful. I forgot to list her. She does animation but also combines it with performing along with the animation (her figure becoming a silhouette). She inspired a few of my former students to try out similar techniques and it brought about interesting conversations and work. From: christophersullivan csu...@saic.edu To: soft_skinned_space empyre@lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au Sent: Tue, March 2, 2010 5:47:43 AM Subject: Re: [-empyre-] animation and gender another name for very strange new media stuff is MiwaMatrakek very poppy, but quite interesting tuff. Chris Quoting Eric Patrick er...@northwestern.edu: Joanne Gratz, Joanna Priestly, Caroline Leaf, etc I actually think the opposite of what Renate says below... at least in terms of independent animation. It always seemed to me that women were dominating independent work with innovation of both form and content (Caroline Leaf and Joan Gratz in the former, Joanna Priestly and Susan Pitt in the later). There's no question that there is a lack of presence in television, film and gaming of women animators (though there's also a lack of general diversity in these areas), with the exception of children's television which has many great people doing things (Jen Oxley, Linda Simensky, and Tracy Paige-Johnson to name a few). Eric On 3/1/10 9:59 AM, christophersullivan csu...@saic.edu wrote: a couple more, Ruth Lingford, Wendy Tilby, Martha Colborn. Kim Colmer, Ariana Gerstine, OrlaMcHardy, Suzzytempleton, Laura Heit. Lisa Barcy, Susan Pit, Maureen Selwood, Christien Roche. got to go. Chris Quoting Renate Ferro r...@cornell.edu: Dear all, Chris thanks for the list of animators below. There is something that I have been very curious about since we began this whole discussion now about a month ago. I was on a site (and I'm not sure which one it was) that was discussing the lack of female animators in the field. The distinction was that many female animators who are working tend to do more documentary, self help animations. Their observation was that most women artists instead tended to be drawn towards manipulated, experimental cinema and video and not straight animation. (Perhaps we need to extend the whole notion of animation via the fuzziness that Suzanne alluded to early on!) Additionally, Mary Flanagan was here at Cornell a few weeks ago and in a public lecture commented on the overwhelming lack of female gamers in the field as well. Our next empyre discussion will not be beginning until March 8th so for the next couple of days or so I'm hoping that we can all talk openly about this topic. Im fascinated and perhaps misinformed I hope. Maybe the tides are turning and many young female artists will be drawn into the new technologies of animation. When I first started looking for guests for this topic it was difficult to find any women at all to participate but I'm so very happy that we finally were able to get a great and yes diverse mix as Chris pointed out in one of his last posts. Can you all send me your favorite female animators??? Renate PS. We will continue on for the next couple of days on animation and then open things up for a few days of open conversation. Hi Richard, there are plenty of non-linear narrative animations, not too many feature ones, but then there are not all that many feature length animations. here are a few animators, off the top of my head, and the Quay's as well; janie Gieser. Lewis Klahr, Nancu Andrews, me Chris Sullivan, Jim Trainor, Simon Pummel, Amy Kravitze, Karen Yasinsky, Lilli Carre, Patrick Smith, Don Hertzfeld, Rose Bond, Joshua Mosely, Jim Duesing, PrittParn, Brent Green, Piotr Dumala, and check out the nice work funded by the organization, Animate Projects, great british wonders. have a good night. Chris. Quoting Richard Wright futurenatu...@blueyonder.co.uk: I always liked the quality in the Quay films where time seems to lose all its reference points. Those shots of dust settling or shadows dancing where you are no longer sure whether you are watching in realtime or over the course of hundreds of years. This also made me wonder why certain kinds of narrative and time are almost never used in animation. For instance, why are there no non- linear narrative animations? They are not that uncommon in live action films - I am thinking of Memento that goes backwards in story time (with one b/w stream going forwards), AmoresPerros that jumps repeatedly backwards and forwards, The Hours with its parallel storylines running in different historical times periods. The only example of an animated film that has anything like these kinds of narrative structure is Waltz with Bashir with its persistent flashbacks. And that was made by a live action director. I
Re: [-empyre-] animation and gender
I also disagree that independent women animators have a tendency towards self-help pieces. This just sounds awful to me somehow. The work is incredibly varied, just like the field of animation itself! From: Eric Patrick er...@northwestern.edu To: soft_skinned_space empyre@lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au; Renate Ferro r...@cornell.edu Cc: soft_skinned_space emp...@gamera.cofa.unsw.edu.au Sent: Mon, March 1, 2010 9:45:23 PM Subject: Re: [-empyre-] animation and gender Joanne Gratz, Joanna Priestly, Caroline Leaf, etc I actually think the opposite of what Renate says below... at least in terms of independent animation. It always seemed to me that women were dominating independent work with innovation of both form and content (Caroline Leaf and Joan Gratz in the former, Joanna Priestly and Susan Pitt in the later). There's no question that there is a lack of presence in television, film and gaming of women animators (though there's also a lack of general diversity in these areas), with the exception of children's television which has many great people doing things (Jen Oxley, Linda Simensky, and Tracy Paige-Johnson to name a few). Eric On 3/1/10 9:59 AM, christopher sullivan csu...@saic.edu wrote: a couple more, Ruth Lingford, Wendy Tilby, Martha Colborn. Kim Colmer, Ariana Gerstine, Orla McHardy, Suzzy templeton, Laura Heit. Lisa Barcy, Susan Pit, Maureen Selwood, Christien Roche. got to go. Chris Quoting Renate Ferro r...@cornell.edu: Dear all, Chris thanks for the list of animators below. There is something that I have been very curious about since we began this whole discussion now about a month ago. I was on a site (and I'm not sure which one it was) that was discussing the lack of female animators in the field. The distinction was that many female animators who are working tend to do more documentary, self help animations. Their observation was that most women artists instead tended to be drawn towards manipulated, experimental cinema and video and not straight animation. (Perhaps we need to extend the whole notion of animation via the fuzziness that Suzanne alluded to early on!) Additionally, Mary Flanagan was here at Cornell a few weeks ago and in a public lecture commented on the overwhelming lack of female gamers in the field as well. Our next empyre discussion will not be beginning until March 8th so for the next couple of days or so I'm hoping that we can all talk openly about this topic. Im fascinated and perhaps misinformed I hope. Maybe the tides are turning and many young female artists will be drawn into the new technologies of animation. When I first started looking for guests for this topic it was difficult to find any women at all to participate but I'm so very happy that we finally were able to get a great and yes diverse mix as Chris pointed out in one of his last posts. Can you all send me your favorite female animators??? Renate PS. We will continue on for the next couple of days on animation and then open things up for a few days of open conversation. Hi Richard, there are plenty of non-linear narrative animations, not too many feature ones, but then there are not all that many feature length animations. here are a few animators, off the top of my head, and the Quay's as well; janie Gieser. Lewis Klahr, Nancu Andrews, me Chris Sullivan, Jim Trainor, Simon Pummel, Amy Kravitze, Karen Yasinsky, Lilli Carre, Patrick Smith, Don Hertzfeld, Rose Bond, Joshua Mosely, Jim Duesing, Pritt Parn, Brent Green, Piotr Dumala, and check out the nice work funded by the organization, Animate Projects, great british wonders. have a good night. Chris. Quoting Richard Wright futurenatu...@blueyonder.co.uk: I always liked the quality in the Quay films where time seems to lose all its reference points. Those shots of dust settling or shadows dancing where you are no longer sure whether you are watching in realtime or over the course of hundreds of years. This also made me wonder why certain kinds of narrative and time are almost never used in animation. For instance, why are there no non- linear narrative animations? They are not that uncommon in live action films - I am thinking of Memento that goes backwards in story time (with one b/w stream going forwards), Amores Perros that jumps repeatedly backwards and forwards, The Hours with its parallel storylines running in different historical times periods. The only example of an animated film that has anything like these kinds of narrative structure is Waltz with Bashir with its persistent flashbacks. And that was made by a live action director. I wonder if this has something to do with the way that animators work, concentrating as they do on building up a sequence of actions bit by bit, are they generally less directed towards the larger narrative structures of time? By focusing on the duration of the immediate
Re: [-empyre-] animation and short term memory (was, a long time ago: interpreting datasets, etc)
Coming from digital arts rather than animation I probably have a stricter definition of non-linearity. What you are calling non-linearity I would call complex or multi-layered narrative or perhaps open narrative. Non-narrative would have no narrative at all, as in no plot, no story. This could be applied to abstract work, but even then there is usually some sort of logical development which can still be considered a narrative. Non-linearity, to me, involves things like coding, rapid access media, heuristics, etc. Conventional animation is linear as it is a single data stream that does not materially change. Non-linear animation would require multiple streams or be generated on the fly, usually in response to user activity. This is what I make but I don¹t consider it animation, although it uses many of its techniques. Did I like the work? I have been familiar with these makers for a long time. I use to attend and present at Siggraph, back in the 1980¹s, along with people like Duesing, Kawaguchi, Lasseter and others. My interest then was not animation but experimental digital art. However, at that time if you were into computers and creative practice then you tended to get tossed into the same box, even if your creative intent was profoundly different. I didn¹t warm to Patrick Smith¹s work it is conventional animation but with a hint of street-cred thrown in, some Keith Haring and Jean Dubuffet. This is evident in the paintings on his website too. Michael Joaquin Grey¹s work is more to my taste. Some of it reminded me of the early Vasulka¹s. Best Simon Simon Biggs s.bi...@eca.ac.uk si...@littlepig.org.uk Skype: simonbiggsuk http://www.littlepig.org.uk/ Research Professor edinburgh college of art http://www.eca.ac.uk/ Creative Interdisciplinary Research into CoLlaborative Environments http://www.eca.ac.uk/circle/ Electronic Literature as a Model of Creativity and Innovation in Practice http://www.elmcip.net/ From: christopher sullivan csu...@saic.edu Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 22:39:04 -0600 To: soft_skinned_space empyre@lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au, Simon Biggs s.bi...@eca.ac.uk Cc: soft_skinned_space empyre@lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au Subject: Re: [-empyre-] animation and short term memory (was, a long time ago: interpreting datasets, etc) Hi Simon, perhaps there are degrees of narrative linearity, for me there does not have to be a literal audience manipulation, or chance operation to create experiments in narrative, it is done in literature all the time. taking a film like Jim Duesings Tender bodies, or Nancy Andrews strange work, or lewis klahr, there is I think very interesting stuff going on. did you like the work you saw? that is all that maters for me. Chris Quoting Simon Biggs s.bi...@eca.ac.uk: I think I am little confused about what non-linear means in this context. I assume it to mean a time based artefact that can exist as a number of distinct material timelines. That is, the timeline bifurcates in various ways that allow the viewer to experience distinctly different aspects of the work. In my experience there are only two ways to do this. One is to use a hypermedia approach, such as the World Wide Web is predicated upon, which allows you to select from multiple routes through a number of possibilities. The other is to use generative techniques, where the viewer¹s interaction with the artefact causes it to re-author itself in real-time, the outcome most likely being a novel instance of the work that only that viewer will ever experience (this approach is more common in simulation based computer games). I have googled some of the names Chris suggested but so far as I could see they are making traditional linear animations. Am I missing something? Best Simon Simon Biggs s.bi...@eca.ac.uk si...@littlepig.org.uk Skype: simonbiggsuk http://www.littlepig.org.uk/ Research Professor edinburgh college of art http://www.eca.ac.uk/ Creative Interdisciplinary Research into CoLlaborative Environments http://www.eca.ac.uk/circle/ Electronic Literature as a Model of Creativity and Innovation in Practice http://www.elmcip.net/ From: Eileen Reynolds eyelen...@hotmail.com Reply-To: soft_skinned_space empyre@lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 11:02:57 -0700 To: empyre@lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au, futurenatu...@blueyonder.co.uk Subject: Re: [-empyre-] animation and short term memory (was, a long time ago: interpreting datasets, etc) Hi Chris. Thanks for the list of names. I had not heard of some who I really ought to have known. Rose bond. wonderful. Intra Muros is superb. I recently attended the introduction master class given by Patrick Smith in Singapore and was impressed by Drink and Puppet. The transformation is quite nice. True, there is an endless supply of animated non-linear shorts out there. Lately I've been absorbed in pre cinema tech and toys and also pixilation. In my opinion the visual power of such simple in camera effects
Re: [-empyre-] animation and short term memory (was, a long time ago: interpreting datasets, etc)
I am quite a fan of Latour¹s formulation of expanded agency and Ingold¹s reading of the Deleuzian idea of becoming, where creation is located in the process of exchange that occurs at the moment the art work comes into being. This assumes that the art work only comes into being when it is received, not when it is produced (although these things can be the same thing they have to be the same thing) and that the work is to be found not in the artefact but in its exchange. The reader and writer only come into being at this moment too. In this view there is little reason to quibble over who did what. The reader and the writer are both implicated in the outcome. This was Derrida¹s point. I do not find this a dry proposition at all quite the opposite. It is a field of complex interplays that is rich in nuance, contradiction, conflict and synergy. Random is just another word for complex ;) Best Simon Simon Biggs s.bi...@eca.ac.uk si...@littlepig.org.uk Skype: simonbiggsuk http://www.littlepig.org.uk/ Research Professor edinburgh college of art http://www.eca.ac.uk/ Creative Interdisciplinary Research into CoLlaborative Environments http://www.eca.ac.uk/circle/ Electronic Literature as a Model of Creativity and Innovation in Practice http://www.elmcip.net/ From: christopher sullivan csu...@saic.edu Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 07:56:46 -0600 To: Simon Biggs s.bi...@eca.ac.uk Cc: soft_skinned_space empyre@lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au Subject: Re: [-empyre-] animation and short term memory (was, a long time ago: interpreting datasets, etc) Hi Simon, I agree that Patrick Smith is light in some ways, and to be honest, I show him in class as a classical animator making independent work. But it is interesting that you pick the one you do not like, as opposed to the one you did. Have not seen Michael Joaquin Grey, will check him out. I agree with your descriptions of narrative. For me it is not really that black and white. I still feel that some of the New Media Rules, Non-linear animation would require multiple streams or be generated on the fly, usually in response to user activity. implies that there is truth in chaos, and control is in some ways problematic. user activity often manifests itself as the narrative of the art opening, which is to me a pretty dry interface. I think that the idea of interactivity by an unblindfolded collaborator engaged in the content of the work, and on board with the works purpose, and someone with creative strengths, has a lot more potential than leaning towards, the unknowing, random outsider. I say this because the latter his been my most common model with interactive digital media. chris. Quoting Simon Biggs s.bi...@eca.ac.uk: Coming from digital arts rather than animation I probably have a stricter definition of non-linearity. What you are calling non-linearity I would call complex or multi-layered narrative or perhaps open narrative. Non-narrative would have no narrative at all, as in no plot, no story. This could be applied to abstract work, but even then there is usually some sort of logical development which can still be considered a narrative. Non-linearity, to me, involves things like coding, rapid access media, heuristics, etc. Conventional animation is linear as it is a single data stream that does not materially change. Non-linear animation would require multiple streams or be generated on the fly, usually in response to user activity. This is what I make but I don¹t consider it animation, although it uses many of its techniques. Did I like the work? I have been familiar with these makers for a long time. I use to attend and present at Siggraph, back in the 1980¹s, along with people like Duesing, Kawaguchi, Lasseter and others. My interest then was not animation but experimental digital art. However, at that time if you were into computers and creative practice then you tended to get tossed into the same box, even if your creative intent was profoundly different. I didn¹t warm to Patrick Smith¹s work it is conventional animation but with a hint of street-cred thrown in, some Keith Haring and Jean Dubuffet. This is evident in the paintings on his website too. Michael Joaquin Grey¹s work is more to my taste. Some of it reminded me of the early Vasulka¹s. Best Simon Simon Biggs s.bi...@eca.ac.uk si...@littlepig.org.uk Skype: simonbiggsuk http://www.littlepig.org.uk/ Research Professor edinburgh college of art http://www.eca.ac.uk/ Creative Interdisciplinary Research into CoLlaborative Environments http://www.eca.ac.uk/circle/ Electronic Literature as a Model of Creativity and Innovation in Practice http://www.elmcip.net/ From: christopher sullivan csu...@saic.edu Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 22:39:04 -0600 To: soft_skinned_space empyre@lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au, Simon Biggs s.bi...@eca.ac.uk Cc: soft_skinned_space empyre@lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au Subject: Re: [-empyre-] animation and short term memory (was, a long
Re: [-empyre-] animation and short term memory (was, a long time ago: interpreting datasets, etc)
I didn¹t say 50/50. Sometimes somebody gives more. One hopes it is the artist, but it isn¹t always the case. In fact, most of the time I get the feeling I am giving more than I am receiving when it comes to popular media. Simon Biggs s.bi...@eca.ac.uk si...@littlepig.org.uk Skype: simonbiggsuk http://www.littlepig.org.uk/ Research Professor edinburgh college of art http://www.eca.ac.uk/ Creative Interdisciplinary Research into CoLlaborative Environments http://www.eca.ac.uk/circle/ Electronic Literature as a Model of Creativity and Innovation in Practice http://www.elmcip.net/ From: christopher sullivan csu...@saic.edu Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 12:16:37 -0600 To: Simon Biggs s.bi...@eca.ac.uk Cc: soft_skinned_space empyre@lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au Subject: Re: [-empyre-] animation and short term memory (was, a long time ago: interpreting datasets, etc) I agree that the moment of interchange is the defining moment, but I do not go with the idea that the writer and the reader are 50 50 in the interchange. I actually like being overwhelmed by art, It is what feels best to me. I am not quibbling, I just feel different, I like work made by really smart complex people, and I do not have a need to democratize the giver and receiver. for instance I am not frustrated when watching football, that I am not actually running the ball, I am truly engaged as an observer, and as a reader, watcher, but I feel connection but not an even one. Animation is very particular like this, because it is such a place of amazing craft. I cannot through a football 60 yards, that is OK. of course diversity in thought is important. Chris Quoting Simon Biggs s.bi...@eca.ac.uk: I am quite a fan of Latour¹s formulation of expanded agency and Ingold¹s reading of the Deleuzian idea of becoming, where creation is located in the process of exchange that occurs at the moment the art work comes into being. This assumes that the art work only comes into being when it is received, not when it is produced (although these things can be the same thing they have to be the same thing) and that the work is to be found not in the artefact but in its exchange. The reader and writer only come into being at this moment too. In this view there is little reason to quibble over who did what. The reader and the writer are both implicated in the outcome. This was Derrida¹s point. I do not find this a dry proposition at all quite the opposite. It is a field of complex interplays that is rich in nuance, contradiction, conflict and synergy. Random is just another word for complex ;) Best Simon Simon Biggs s.bi...@eca.ac.uk si...@littlepig.org.uk Skype: simonbiggsuk http://www.littlepig.org.uk/ Research Professor edinburgh college of art http://www.eca.ac.uk/ Creative Interdisciplinary Research into CoLlaborative Environments http://www.eca.ac.uk/circle/ Electronic Literature as a Model of Creativity and Innovation in Practice http://www.elmcip.net/ From: christopher sullivan csu...@saic.edu Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 07:56:46 -0600 To: Simon Biggs s.bi...@eca.ac.uk Cc: soft_skinned_space empyre@lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au Subject: Re: [-empyre-] animation and short term memory (was, a long time ago: interpreting datasets, etc) Hi Simon, I agree that Patrick Smith is light in some ways, and to be honest, I show him in class as a classical animator making independent work. But it is interesting that you pick the one you do not like, as opposed to the one you did. Have not seen Michael Joaquin Grey, will check him out. I agree with your descriptions of narrative. For me it is not really that black and white. I still feel that some of the New Media Rules, Non-linear animation would require multiple streams or be generated on the fly, usually in response to user activity. implies that there is truth in chaos, and control is in some ways problematic. user activity often manifests itself as the narrative of the art opening, which is to me a pretty dry interface. I think that the idea of interactivity by an unblindfolded collaborator engaged in the content of the work, and on board with the works purpose, and someone with creative strengths, has a lot more potential than leaning towards, the unknowing, random outsider. I say this because the latter his been my most common model with interactive digital media. chris. Quoting Simon Biggs s.bi...@eca.ac.uk: Coming from digital arts rather than animation I probably have a stricter definition of non-linearity. What you are calling non-linearity I would call complex or multi-layered narrative or perhaps open narrative. Non-narrative would have no narrative at all, as in no plot, no story. This could be applied to abstract work, but even then there is usually some sort of logical development which can still be considered a narrative. Non-linearity, to me, involves things like coding, rapid access media, heuristics, etc.
