Re: [E-devel] Choice of a Window Manager
On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 11:30 AM, David Seikel onef...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, 12 Oct 2009 10:49:03 +0800 Brian Wang brian.wang.0...@gmail.com wrote: We are running Elementary/EFL on our target device (ARM926EJS @ 400MHz). We would like to run a window manager to simply the windows management. I have seen some e17+Illume demo videos on the web and would love to see its functionalities on our device. However, it is the boot time that is of concern. Judging from the video clips, it takes 30~50 seconds to boot when running the e17+Illume. That seems forever for a simple multimedia device. Maybe it is due to too many modules configured in? Besides e17, are there any window managers that are based on EFL? I'm Nope. I guess that leaves e17 as the only option. personally drooling over Illume's software keyboards... Matchbox window manager + panel used to be an option, but it's kind of static after I saw Illume... My dream window manager would boot fast, small in size and with a sexy software keyboard. Is it too much to ask for? One question that comes to mind, having worked on the boot speed problem. is what do you mean by boot time? Time from turn on to a usable GUI? That is not all E17, you are also starting up the CPU, hardware, maybe a BIOS, boot loader, kernel, X, and whatever else you need, often most of this is before E17 is started. Sure for some embedded devices there may not be a BIOS, or the linux kernel may BE the BIOS and boot loader. You are still left with at least starting kernel and X before you even get to starting E17. Yes, I mean the time from power-on to a usable GUI and on our device, that would be: u-boot + kernel + kdrive + X apps Currently u-boot + kernel + kdrive take roughtly 3.x seconds without any optimization. I would like to make it boot up within 5 seconds from power-on to a usable state. That would leave 1.x second for e to start...2 I do remember a time when we managed to get the startup time of e17 itself down to a fraction of a second on a typical desktop. Maybe 5 seconds tops on the sort of device you mentioned. I don't know what it is these days. You mean e17 spends 5 seconds all by itself? Hm... sounds like a daunting task ahead of me... -- Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel -- brian -- Cool-Karaoke - The smallest recording studio, in your palm, open-sourced http://cool-idea.com.tw/ iMaGiNaTiOn iS mOrE iMpOrTaNt tHaN kNoWlEdGe -- Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] Choice of a Window Manager
On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 7:59 AM, Brian Wang brian.wang.0...@gmail.comwrote: On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 11:30 AM, David Seikel onef...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, 12 Oct 2009 10:49:03 +0800 Brian Wang brian.wang.0...@gmail.com wrote: We are running Elementary/EFL on our target device (ARM926EJS @ 400MHz). We would like to run a window manager to simply the windows management. I have seen some e17+Illume demo videos on the web and would love to see its functionalities on our device. However, it is the boot time that is of concern. Judging from the video clips, it takes 30~50 seconds to boot when running the e17+Illume. That seems forever for a simple multimedia device. Maybe it is due to too many modules configured in? Besides e17, are there any window managers that are based on EFL? I'm Nope. I guess that leaves e17 as the only option. personally drooling over Illume's software keyboards... Matchbox window manager + panel used to be an option, but it's kind of static after I saw Illume... My dream window manager would boot fast, small in size and with a sexy software keyboard. Is it too much to ask for? One question that comes to mind, having worked on the boot speed problem. is what do you mean by boot time? Time from turn on to a usable GUI? That is not all E17, you are also starting up the CPU, hardware, maybe a BIOS, boot loader, kernel, X, and whatever else you need, often most of this is before E17 is started. Sure for some embedded devices there may not be a BIOS, or the linux kernel may BE the BIOS and boot loader. You are still left with at least starting kernel and X before you even get to starting E17. Yes, I mean the time from power-on to a usable GUI and on our device, that would be: u-boot + kernel + kdrive + X apps Currently u-boot + kernel + kdrive take roughtly 3.x seconds without any optimization. I would like to make it boot up within 5 seconds from power-on to a usable state. That would leave 1.x second for e to start...2 I do remember a time when we managed to get the startup time of e17 itself down to a fraction of a second on a typical desktop. Maybe 5 seconds tops on the sort of device you mentioned. I don't know what it is these days. You mean e17 spends 5 seconds all by itself? Hm... sounds like a daunting task ahead of me... Look at the openmoko phone. it take a lot of sec but just to boot the linux. When X starts, it takes only few seconds. The hardware is not well designed so all graphical suff are quite long. Despite this, 98% of the boot time is just to run the linux, and starts the init process. If it's a lightweight device, you could have a look to uClinux -- Steven Le Roux Jabber-ID : ste...@jabber.fr 0x39494CCB ste...@le-roux.info 2FF7 226B 552E 4709 03F0 6281 72D7 A010 3949 4CCB -- Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] Choice of a Window Manager
On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 7:59 AM, Brian Wang brian.wang.0...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 11:30 AM, David Seikel onef...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, 12 Oct 2009 10:49:03 +0800 Brian Wang I do remember a time when we managed to get the startup time of e17 itself down to a fraction of a second on a typical desktop. Maybe 5 seconds tops on the sort of device you mentioned. I don't know what it is these days. You mean e17 spends 5 seconds all by itself? Hm... sounds like a daunting task ahead of me... It really depend on your hardware and your configuration. During the bootup process of E17, what count is IO operation. Most are due to module, so by carefully choosing them you will reduce the boot time. The second source of IO is library dependencies. If you reduce to the minimum the number of needed library to be loaded, you can win a lot of time. You can currently build all the library from eina to efreet, including evas as a static library only. If you have only one user of the EFL, this could help you. But the best things to do, is to try, then profile and improve things. So just let us know what you test give on your hardware :-) -- Cedric BAIL -- Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] Choice of a Window Manager
On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 5:40 PM, Cedric BAIL cedric.b...@free.fr wrote: On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 7:59 AM, Brian Wang brian.wang.0...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 11:30 AM, David Seikel onef...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, 12 Oct 2009 10:49:03 +0800 Brian Wang I do remember a time when we managed to get the startup time of e17 itself down to a fraction of a second on a typical desktop. Maybe 5 seconds tops on the sort of device you mentioned. I don't know what it is these days. You mean e17 spends 5 seconds all by itself? Hm... sounds like a daunting task ahead of me... It really depend on your hardware and your configuration. During the bootup process of E17, what count is IO operation. Most are due to module, so by carefully choosing them you will reduce the boot time. The second source of IO is library dependencies. If you reduce to the minimum the number of needed library to be loaded, you can win a lot of time. You can currently build all the library from eina to efreet, including evas as a static library only. If you have only one user of the EFL, this could help you. Too bad that I will have multiple applications that are based on EFL. But the best things to do, is to try, then profile and improve things. So just let us know what you test give on your hardware :-) -- Cedric BAIL OK. I just tried. :-) On my device, from power-on to Illume taskbar + empty desktop, it currently takes ~18 seconds. I guess it's not as bad as seen in the demo videos (Openmoko and Palm targets). There's always room for improvements. I will have to steal 15 seconds off that. I have lots to learn as a newbie... Any optimization tips are welcome. :-) Thanks in advance. Brian -- brian -- Cool-Karaoke - The smallest recording studio, in your palm, open-sourced http://cool-idea.com.tw/ iMaGiNaTiOn iS mOrE iMpOrTaNt tHaN kNoWlEdGe -- Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] Choice of a Window Manager
On Mon, 12 Oct 2009 20:07:25 +0800 Brian Wang brian.wang.0...@gmail.com said: On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 5:40 PM, Cedric BAIL cedric.b...@free.fr wrote: On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 7:59 AM, Brian Wang brian.wang.0...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 11:30 AM, David Seikel onef...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, 12 Oct 2009 10:49:03 +0800 Brian Wang I do remember a time when we managed to get the startup time of e17 itself down to a fraction of a second on a typical desktop. Maybe 5 seconds tops on the sort of device you mentioned. I don't know what it is these days. You mean e17 spends 5 seconds all by itself? Hm... sounds like a daunting task ahead of me... It really depend on your hardware and your configuration. During the bootup process of E17, what count is IO operation. Most are due to module, so by carefully choosing them you will reduce the boot time. The second source of IO is library dependencies. If you reduce to the minimum the number of needed library to be loaded, you can win a lot of time. You can currently build all the library from eina to efreet, including evas as a static library only. If you have only one user of the EFL, this could help you. Too bad that I will have multiple applications that are based on EFL. But the best things to do, is to try, then profile and improve things. So just let us know what you test give on your hardware :-) -- Cedric BAIL OK. I just tried. :-) On my device, from power-on to Illume taskbar + empty desktop, it currently takes ~18 seconds. I guess it's not as bad as seen in the demo videos (Openmoko and Palm targets). There's always room for improvements. I will have to steal 15 seconds off that. I have lots to learn as a newbie... Any optimization tips are welcome. :-) 1. profile profile profile. find out where your time is being spent. take a look at bootchart. it's not a bad place to start to see just whats going on at an overview level. 2. do less. dont do anything you dont NEED to (e17 WILL do things u probably dont neeed - file load a theme of its own, set a wallpaper and render it, scan for .desktop files for apps and looks for system app menus like freedesktop.org xdg standards). 3. how long does the boot take if you JUST boot into an empty x? 4. how much into an empt x + an elementary (or efl app). (note that efl has a lot of libraries it uses and depends on - each dependency needs to be found in the fileystsem (ld.so hunts for it) and then symbols need to be resolved. this literally is string matching every function call used to an entry in a hash table in the library). the more libs are used - the more symbols need looking for and thus the more library symbol tables need paging in from disk 5. do some bencmarks on disk io - where are you booting from? nand? mmc/sd? nmote that u'll likely find mmc/sd has much better io performance than nand. also note that the fs you use will matter - eg jffs2 doesnt allow mmap and needs to to decompress and rebuild logs. ubifs as well ned to rebuild from logs and decomrpess. cramfs too. all these compressed fs's will reduce raw io requirements at the expense of cpu - thus u're losing cpu that can be used for apps starting up. so look deeply at your IO. not to mention time spent mounting the filesystem when the kernel starts - all of init and shells loaded in. now.. 1. look into prelink. that can help avoid much of #4. also ldconfig and ld.so.cache - make sure it's pre-built and populated, not done on each boot. note that if u dont use e - u'll end up paging in the symbols for libraries anyway for evas, elementary etc. etc. anyway so either u pay the price for getting that all cached when e starts or when your efl app starts. one way or another you will pay that price. 2. just disable features you dont need - modules u dont need for evas (loaders, savers, engines etc.). dont build ecore libs u dont need. etc. etc. etc. 3. profile and see just how much time is spent prior to e coming up. you may find that is quite significant and you're barking up the wrong tree. so as i said for #1 profile profile profile profile -- - Codito, ergo sum - I code, therefore I am -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com -- Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] Choice of a Window Manager
On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 9:17 PM, Carsten Haitzler ras...@rasterman.com wrote: On Mon, 12 Oct 2009 20:07:25 +0800 Brian Wang brian.wang.0...@gmail.com said: On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 5:40 PM, Cedric BAIL cedric.b...@free.fr wrote: On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 7:59 AM, Brian Wang brian.wang.0...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 11:30 AM, David Seikel onef...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, 12 Oct 2009 10:49:03 +0800 Brian Wang I do remember a time when we managed to get the startup time of e17 itself down to a fraction of a second on a typical desktop. Maybe 5 seconds tops on the sort of device you mentioned. I don't know what it is these days. You mean e17 spends 5 seconds all by itself? Hm... sounds like a daunting task ahead of me... It really depend on your hardware and your configuration. During the bootup process of E17, what count is IO operation. Most are due to module, so by carefully choosing them you will reduce the boot time. The second source of IO is library dependencies. If you reduce to the minimum the number of needed library to be loaded, you can win a lot of time. You can currently build all the library from eina to efreet, including evas as a static library only. If you have only one user of the EFL, this could help you. Too bad that I will have multiple applications that are based on EFL. But the best things to do, is to try, then profile and improve things. So just let us know what you test give on your hardware :-) -- Cedric BAIL OK. I just tried. :-) On my device, from power-on to Illume taskbar + empty desktop, it currently takes ~18 seconds. I guess it's not as bad as seen in the demo videos (Openmoko and Palm targets). There's always room for improvements. I will have to steal 15 seconds off that. I have lots to learn as a newbie... Any optimization tips are welcome. :-) 1. profile profile profile. find out where your time is being spent. take a look at bootchart. it's not a bad place to start to see just whats going on at an overview level. 2. do less. dont do anything you dont NEED to (e17 WILL do things u probably dont neeed - file load a theme of its own, set a wallpaper and render it, scan for .desktop files for apps and looks for system app menus like freedesktop.org xdg standards). 3. how long does the boot take if you JUST boot into an empty x? 4. how much into an empt x + an elementary (or efl app). (note that efl has a lot of libraries it uses and depends on - each dependency needs to be found in the fileystsem (ld.so hunts for it) and then symbols need to be resolved. this literally is string matching every function call used to an entry in a hash table in the library). the more libs are used - the more symbols need looking for and thus the more library symbol tables need paging in from disk 5. do some bencmarks on disk io - where are you booting from? nand? mmc/sd? nmote that u'll likely find mmc/sd has much better io performance than nand. also note that the fs you use will matter - eg jffs2 doesnt allow mmap and needs to to decompress and rebuild logs. ubifs as well ned to rebuild from logs and decomrpess. cramfs too. all these compressed fs's will reduce raw io requirements at the expense of cpu - thus u're losing cpu that can be used for apps starting up. so look deeply at your IO. not to mention time spent mounting the filesystem when the kernel starts - all of init and shells loaded in. now.. 1. look into prelink. that can help avoid much of #4. also ldconfig and ld.so.cache - make sure it's pre-built and populated, not done on each boot. note that if u dont use e - u'll end up paging in the symbols for libraries anyway for evas, elementary etc. etc. anyway so either u pay the price for getting that all cached when e starts or when your efl app starts. one way or another you will pay that price. 2. just disable features you dont need - modules u dont need for evas (loaders, savers, engines etc.). dont build ecore libs u dont need. etc. etc. etc. 3. profile and see just how much time is spent prior to e coming up. you may find that is quite significant and you're barking up the wrong tree. so as i said for #1 profile profile profile profile Wow. That's a lot of tips. Also, valid ones. I am going to finish up my applications and do some boot time analysis and optimizations. P.S. I played with e17+Illume a bit last night. It is quite fun! Even though the theme is black and white, the animating nature of it is catching a lot of eyes. Thanks to all. Brian -- - Codito, ergo sum - I code, therefore I am -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler) ras...@rasterman.com -- brian -- Cool-Karaoke - The smallest recording studio, in your palm, open-sourced http://cool-idea.com.tw/ iMaGiNaTiOn iS mOrE iMpOrTaNt tHaN kNoWlEdGe --
[E-devel] Choice of a Window Manager
Hello all, We are running Elementary/EFL on our target device (ARM926EJS @ 400MHz). We would like to run a window manager to simply the windows management. I have seen some e17+Illume demo videos on the web and would love to see its functionalities on our device. However, it is the boot time that is of concern. Judging from the video clips, it takes 30~50 seconds to boot when running the e17+Illume. That seems forever for a simple multimedia device. Maybe it is due to too many modules configured in? Besides e17, are there any window managers that are based on EFL? I'm personally drooling over Illume's software keyboards... Matchbox window manager + panel used to be an option, but it's kind of static after I saw Illume... My dream window manager would boot fast, small in size and with a sexy software keyboard. Is it too much to ask for? Could anyone give me some advice? Thanks in advance. Brian -- brian -- Cool-Karaoke - The smallest recording studio, in your palm, open-sourced http://cool-idea.com.tw/ iMaGiNaTiOn iS mOrE iMpOrTaNt tHaN kNoWlEdGe -- Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] Choice of a Window Manager
On Mon, 12 Oct 2009 10:49:03 +0800 Brian Wang brian.wang.0...@gmail.com wrote: We are running Elementary/EFL on our target device (ARM926EJS @ 400MHz). We would like to run a window manager to simply the windows management. I have seen some e17+Illume demo videos on the web and would love to see its functionalities on our device. However, it is the boot time that is of concern. Judging from the video clips, it takes 30~50 seconds to boot when running the e17+Illume. That seems forever for a simple multimedia device. Maybe it is due to too many modules configured in? Besides e17, are there any window managers that are based on EFL? I'm Nope. personally drooling over Illume's software keyboards... Matchbox window manager + panel used to be an option, but it's kind of static after I saw Illume... My dream window manager would boot fast, small in size and with a sexy software keyboard. Is it too much to ask for? One question that comes to mind, having worked on the boot speed problem. is what do you mean by boot time? Time from turn on to a usable GUI? That is not all E17, you are also starting up the CPU, hardware, maybe a BIOS, boot loader, kernel, X, and whatever else you need, often most of this is before E17 is started. Sure for some embedded devices there may not be a BIOS, or the linux kernel may BE the BIOS and boot loader. You are still left with at least starting kernel and X before you even get to starting E17. I do remember a time when we managed to get the startup time of e17 itself down to a fraction of a second on a typical desktop. Maybe 5 seconds tops on the sort of device you mentioned. I don't know what it is these days. signature.asc Description: PGP signature -- Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconference___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
