Re: Could delete methods rename to remove?
On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 1:55 PM, Rick Waldron waldron.r...@gmail.comwrote: Submit patches—libraries intended for use in IE8 should be made to support that platform, it's that simple. Submitting patches is irrelevant and impractical here. Why use es5-shim? Because we want to use some scripts written in es5 WITHOUT asking the authors change their code. Though sometimes es5-shim is not enough (for those rely on getter/setter syntax or Object.create(null) which hard to shim). What I'm talking about is: there will be many modules using ES6 API but still can be used in ES5 or pre-ES5 or even pre-ES3 environment with es5/es6 shims (if they do not rely on the complex features like Proxy or Generator). So bordering the original authors to change their code from a.delete() to a['delete'] are meaningless and I don't expect they will accept such patch. (Do anyone really think change a.delete to a['delete'] is a patch?) Wrong—that impairment has nothing to do with browsers, but with _existing_ code that makes incorrect assumptions (or none at all) about the return value of typeof. I don't see any difference here. Whether it's correct or incorrect assumption, the spec can not change that behavior. In my opinion, using reserved words as methods name in standard library is far more problematic than the case of typeof null (because I don't know any real product code rely on typeof null === 'object' and if any it's very easy to fix). ___ es-discuss mailing list es-discuss@mozilla.org https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/es-discuss
Re: Could delete methods rename to remove?
Le 17/12/2013 22:52, Alex Kocharin a écrit : I believe ecmascript isn't versionless yet like html is, and that number means something. As far as I'm concerned, ECMAScript is versionless. As versionless as HTML. Implementation aren't monolithically moving from one standard version to the other. I don't believe we've ever seen a browser with exactly ES3 or exactly ES5 (wait... maybe IE10?! but with IE11, they're back to ES5+some ES6 features) Modulo spec bugs and history details, version n is fully backward-compatible with version n-1. TC39 decided to move to a more iterative spec release schedule recently too. The version has also never been exposed to the runtime which encourages people to do version-agnostic feature detection. Version numbers mean nothing. Version numbers are kept only for the same reason W3C produces HTML5 and 5.1 and 6 spec. And I think the reason is that most people aren't used to how the web works and are reassured with classic versioning systems... so reassured some people pay a different price to the same company when they're sold a HTML4 site or an HTML5 site (because 5 4, you know...). True story. Maybe versions is just better marketing because in the next version suggests a stronger progress than in the next iteration? David ___ es-discuss mailing list es-discuss@mozilla.org https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/es-discuss
Could delete methods rename to remove?
There are some methods using reserved word delete, such as Map.prototype.delete, Set.prototype.delete... Though it is allowed since ES5, I think we'd better avoid it because it cause es6 shim solution fail on legacy browsers such as IE8. -- hax ___ es-discuss mailing list es-discuss@mozilla.org https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/es-discuss
Re: Could delete methods rename to remove?
Le 17/12/2013 10:19, Shijun He a écrit : There are some methods using reserved word delete, such as Map.prototype.delete, Set.prototype.delete... Though it is allowed since ES5, I think we'd better avoid it because it cause es6 shim solution fail on legacy browsers such as IE8. Note that there is a warning [1] (maybe arguably). Among other incompatibilities, size is a getter too. myMap.delete fails, but myMap['delete'] should work. David [1] https://github.com/paulmillr/es6-shim/blob/4322eae20b6f8a7769fa1d89ac207ef8ee9e1ee4/es6-shim.js#L662 ___ es-discuss mailing list es-discuss@mozilla.org https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/es-discuss
Re: Could delete methods rename to remove?
On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 4:19 AM, Shijun He hax@gmail.com wrote: There are some methods using reserved word delete, such as Map.prototype.delete, Set.prototype.delete... Though it is allowed since ES5, I think we'd better avoid it because it cause es6 shim solution fail on legacy browsers such as IE8. As Allen has said in the past: The future is bigger than the past. The method name delete is compatible with the previous version of the specification—which is not at all ambiguous or underspecified w/r to Identifier and IdentifierName static semantics. Rick ___ es-discuss mailing list es-discuss@mozilla.org https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/es-discuss
Re: Could delete methods rename to remove?
sorry what ? https://github.com/WebReflection/es6-collections#es6-harmony-collections-fast-polyfill https://code.google.com/p/es-lab/source/browse/trunk/src/ses/WeakMap.js https://github.com/Benvie/ES6-Harmony-Collections-Shim https://github.com/paulmillr/es6-shim https://gist.github.com/Gozala/1269991 regards On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Alex Kocharin a...@kocharin.ru wrote: ES6 scripts will not work in IE8. Period. What's the point of making it work with a bit more ES6 scripts since all of them will never be supported anyway? I would only welcome if that badly written or outdated software gets exposed this way. 17.12.2013, 22:59, Andrea Giammarchi andrea.giammar...@gmail.com: not shold but **does** work ;-) Although I agree that specific thing is very inconvenient in some case and minifiers knows this too. As example, google closure compiler fails with this script in two ways ```javascript var wm = new WeakMap; wm.delete(Object); ``` Simple minification does the right, resulting in an IE8 safe script such` wm['delete'](Object)` thing but it throws a warning: ``` JSC_INVALID_ES3_PROP_NAME: Keywords and reserved words are not allowed as unquoted property names in older versions of JavaScript. If you are targeting newer versions of JavaScript, set the appropriate language_in option. at line 2 character 3 wm.delete(Object); ``` While in advance mode and no special flags it just breaks resulting in: `(new WeakMap).a(Object);` YUI is not even able to minify that script ... in few words developers tools do not make the usage of these methods in ES6 collections easy to write and use for developers themselves so tey have to remember those square brackets ... pretty silly if you ask me ^_^ ES6#del() or remove() would have been way easier solution ... choosing a reserved word was OKish, but was also asking for few extra gotchas/troubles nobody really needed/wanted. The good part is: nobody will care about IE8 anymore ... and pretty soon!!! Still tools should be smarter about this issue Best Regards On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 1:38 AM, David Bruant bruan...@gmail.com wrote: Le 17/12/2013 10:19, Shijun He a écrit : There are some methods using reserved word delete, such as Map.prototype.delete, Set.prototype.delete... Though it is allowed since ES5, I think we'd better avoid it because it cause es6 shim solution fail on legacy browsers such as IE8. Note that there is a warning [1] (maybe arguably). Among other incompatibilities, size is a getter too. myMap.delete fails, but myMap['delete'] should work. David [1] https://github.com/paulmillr/es6-shim/blob/ 4322eae20b6f8a7769fa1d89ac207ef8ee9e1ee4/es6-shim.js#L662 ___ es-discuss mailing list es-discuss@mozilla.org https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/es-discuss , ___ es-discuss mailing list es-discuss@mozilla.org https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/es-discuss ___ es-discuss mailing list es-discuss@mozilla.org https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/es-discuss ___ es-discuss mailing list es-discuss@mozilla.org https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/es-discuss
Re: Could delete methods rename to remove?
not shold but **does** work ;-) Although I agree that specific thing is very inconvenient in some case and minifiers knows this too. As example, google closure compiler fails with this script in two ways ```javascript var wm = new WeakMap; wm.delete(Object); ``` Simple minification does the right, resulting in an IE8 safe script such` wm['delete'](Object)` thing but it throws a warning: ``` JSC_INVALID_ES3_PROP_NAME: Keywords and reserved words are not allowed as unquoted property names in older versions of JavaScript. If you are targeting newer versions of JavaScript, set the appropriate language_in option. at line 2 character 3 wm.delete(Object); ``` While in advance mode and no special flags it just breaks resulting in: `(new WeakMap).a(Object);` YUI is not even able to minify that script ... in few words developers tools do not make the usage of these methods in ES6 collections easy to write and use for developers themselves so tey have to remember those square brackets ... pretty silly if you ask me ^_^ ES6#del() or remove() would have been way easier solution ... choosing a reserved word was OKish, but was also asking for few extra gotchas/troubles nobody really needed/wanted. The good part is: nobody will care about IE8 anymore ... and pretty soon!!! Still tools should be smarter about this issue Best Regards On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 1:38 AM, David Bruant bruan...@gmail.com wrote: Le 17/12/2013 10:19, Shijun He a écrit : There are some methods using reserved word delete, such as Map.prototype.delete, Set.prototype.delete... Though it is allowed since ES5, I think we'd better avoid it because it cause es6 shim solution fail on legacy browsers such as IE8. Note that there is a warning [1] (maybe arguably). Among other incompatibilities, size is a getter too. myMap.delete fails, but myMap['delete'] should work. David [1] https://github.com/paulmillr/es6-shim/blob/ 4322eae20b6f8a7769fa1d89ac207ef8ee9e1ee4/es6-shim.js#L662 ___ es-discuss mailing list es-discuss@mozilla.org https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/es-discuss ___ es-discuss mailing list es-discuss@mozilla.org https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/es-discuss
Re: Could delete methods rename to remove?
You can't run any ES6 script in a browser that don't support ES6, because they will throw syntax error at the first yield (unless you're using compiler like traceur, but it won't have a problem with getting .delete work either). If you use shims, that's fine, but you're not writing ES6, you're writing ES5+shims, and that's not ES6 because you can't use all the features it introduces. I believe ecmascript isn't versionless yet like html is, and that number means something. If you want to support IE6 without compiling, fine, you can write in ES3+shims using wm['delete'](object) syntax. I don't see it being an issue. 18.12.2013, 00:59, "Andrea Giammarchi" andrea.giammar...@gmail.com:sorry what ? https://github.com/WebReflection/es6-collections#es6-harmony-collections-fast-polyfillhttps://code.google.com/p/es-lab/source/browse/trunk/src/ses/WeakMap.jshttps://github.com/Benvie/ES6-Harmony-Collections-Shimhttps://github.com/paulmillr/es6-shimhttps://gist.github.com/Gozala/1269991 regards On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Alex Kocharin a...@kocharin.ru wrote: ES6 scripts will not work in IE8. Period. What's the point of making it work with a bit more ES6 scripts since all of them will never be supported anyway? I would only welcome if that badly written or outdated software gets exposed this way. 17.12.2013, 22:59, "Andrea Giammarchi" andrea.giammar...@gmail.com:not shold but **does** work ;-) Although I agree that specific thing is very inconvenient in some case and minifiers knows this too. As example, google closure compiler fails with this script in two ways ```_javascript_var wm = new WeakMap;wm.delete(Object);``` Simple minification does the right, resulting in an IE8 safe script such` wm['delete'](Object)` thing but it throws a warning:```JSC_INVALID_ES3_PROP_NAME: Keywords and reserved words are not allowed as unquoted property names in older versions of _javascript_. If you are targeting newer versions of _javascript_, set the appropriate language_in option. at line 2 character 3 wm.delete(Object);``` While in advance mode and no special flags it just breaks resulting in: `(new WeakMap).a(Object);` YUI is not even able to minify that script ... in few words developers tools do not make the usage of these methods in ES6 collections easy to write and use for developers themselves so tey have to remember those square brackets ... pretty silly if you ask me ^_^ ES6#del() or remove() would have been way easier solution ... choosing a reserved word was OKish, but was also asking for few extra gotchas/troubles nobody really needed/wanted. The good part is: nobody will care about IE8 anymore ... and pretty soon!!! Still tools should be smarter about this issue Best RegardsOn Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 1:38 AM, David Bruant bruan...@gmail.com wrote:Le 17/12/2013 10:19, Shijun He a écrit :There are some methods using reserved word "delete", such as Map.prototype.delete, Set.prototype.delete... Though it is allowed since ES5, I think we'd better avoid it because it cause es6 shim solution fail on legacy browsers such as IE8.Note that there is a warning [1] (maybe arguably). Among other incompatibilities, "size" is a getter too. myMap.delete fails, but myMap['delete'] should work. David [1] https://github.com/paulmillr/es6-shim/blob/4322eae20b6f8a7769fa1d89ac207ef8ee9e1ee4/es6-shim.js#L662 ___ es-discuss mailing list es-discuss@mozilla.org https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/es-discuss,___es-discuss mailing listes-discuss@mozilla.orghttps://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/es-discuss___ es-discuss mailing list es-discuss@mozilla.org https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/es-discuss ___ es-discuss mailing list es-discuss@mozilla.org https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/es-discuss
Re: Could delete methods rename to remove?
ES6 scripts will not work in IE8. Period. What's the point of making it work with a bit more ES6 scripts since all of them will never be supported anyway? I would only welcome if that badly written or outdated software gets exposed this way. 17.12.2013, 22:59, "Andrea Giammarchi" andrea.giammar...@gmail.com:not shold but **does** work ;-) Although I agree that specific thing is very inconvenient in some case and minifiers knows this too. As example, google closure compiler fails with this script in two ways ```_javascript_var wm = new WeakMap;wm.delete(Object);``` Simple minification does the right, resulting in an IE8 safe script such` wm['delete'](Object)` thing but it throws a warning:```JSC_INVALID_ES3_PROP_NAME: Keywords and reserved words are not allowed as unquoted property names in older versions of _javascript_. If you are targeting newer versions of _javascript_, set the appropriate language_in option. at line 2 character 3 wm.delete(Object);``` While in advance mode and no special flags it just breaks resulting in: `(new WeakMap).a(Object);` YUI is not even able to minify that script ... in few words developers tools do not make the usage of these methods in ES6 collections easy to write and use for developers themselves so tey have to remember those square brackets ... pretty silly if you ask me ^_^ ES6#del() or remove() would have been way easier solution ... choosing a reserved word was OKish, but was also asking for few extra gotchas/troubles nobody really needed/wanted. The good part is: nobody will care about IE8 anymore ... and pretty soon!!! Still tools should be smarter about this issue Best RegardsOn Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 1:38 AM, David Bruant bruan...@gmail.com wrote:Le 17/12/2013 10:19, Shijun He a écrit :There are some methods using reserved word "delete", such as Map.prototype.delete, Set.prototype.delete... Though it is allowed since ES5, I think we'd better avoid it because it cause es6 shim solution fail on legacy browsers such as IE8.Note that there is a warning [1] (maybe arguably). Among other incompatibilities, "size" is a getter too. myMap.delete fails, but myMap['delete'] should work. David [1] https://github.com/paulmillr/es6-shim/blob/4322eae20b6f8a7769fa1d89ac207ef8ee9e1ee4/es6-shim.js#L662 ___ es-discuss mailing list es-discuss@mozilla.org https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/es-discuss,___es-discuss mailing listes-discuss@mozilla.orghttps://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/es-discuss___ es-discuss mailing list es-discuss@mozilla.org https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/es-discuss
Re: Could delete methods rename to remove?
IE6 ? ... I don't understand your argument. We are talking about IE8 and polyfills that work already plus this does not solve the main problem which is about tools not always compatible with ES6 and/or future proof and shim aware. If tools were OK you wuld just write wm.delete(obj); and the tool would wrap that for you instead of throwing as these might do today. Regards On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 1:52 PM, Alex Kocharin a...@kocharin.ru wrote: You can't run any ES6 script in a browser that don't support ES6, because they will throw syntax error at the first yield (unless you're using compiler like traceur, but it won't have a problem with getting .delete work either). If you use shims, that's fine, but you're not writing ES6, you're writing ES5+shims, and that's not ES6 because you can't use all the features it introduces. I believe ecmascript isn't versionless yet like html is, and that number means something. If you want to support IE6 without compiling, fine, you can write in ES3+shims using wm['delete'](object) syntax. I don't see it being an issue. 18.12.2013, 00:59, Andrea Giammarchi andrea.giammar...@gmail.com: sorry what ? https://github.com/WebReflection/es6-collections#es6-harmony-collections-fast-polyfill https://code.google.com/p/es-lab/source/browse/trunk/src/ses/WeakMap.js https://github.com/Benvie/ES6-Harmony-Collections-Shim https://github.com/paulmillr/es6-shim https://gist.github.com/Gozala/1269991 regards On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Alex Kocharin a...@kocharin.ru wrote: ES6 scripts will not work in IE8. Period. What's the point of making it work with a bit more ES6 scripts since all of them will never be supported anyway? I would only welcome if that badly written or outdated software gets exposed this way. 17.12.2013, 22:59, Andrea Giammarchi andrea.giammar...@gmail.com: not shold but **does** work ;-) Although I agree that specific thing is very inconvenient in some case and minifiers knows this too. As example, google closure compiler fails with this script in two ways ```javascript var wm = new WeakMap; wm.delete(Object); ``` Simple minification does the right, resulting in an IE8 safe script such` wm['delete'](Object)` thing but it throws a warning: ``` JSC_INVALID_ES3_PROP_NAME: Keywords and reserved words are not allowed as unquoted property names in older versions of JavaScript. If you are targeting newer versions of JavaScript, set the appropriate language_in option. at line 2 character 3 wm.delete(Object); ``` While in advance mode and no special flags it just breaks resulting in: `(new WeakMap).a(Object);` YUI is not even able to minify that script ... in few words developers tools do not make the usage of these methods in ES6 collections easy to write and use for developers themselves so tey have to remember those square brackets ... pretty silly if you ask me ^_^ ES6#del() or remove() would have been way easier solution ... choosing a reserved word was OKish, but was also asking for few extra gotchas/troubles nobody really needed/wanted. The good part is: nobody will care about IE8 anymore ... and pretty soon!!! Still tools should be smarter about this issue Best Regards On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 1:38 AM, David Bruant bruan...@gmail.com wrote: Le 17/12/2013 10:19, Shijun He a écrit : There are some methods using reserved word delete, such as Map.prototype.delete, Set.prototype.delete... Though it is allowed since ES5, I think we'd better avoid it because it cause es6 shim solution fail on legacy browsers such as IE8. Note that there is a warning [1] (maybe arguably). Among other incompatibilities, size is a getter too. myMap.delete fails, but myMap['delete'] should work. David [1] https://github.com/paulmillr/es6-shim/blob/ 4322eae20b6f8a7769fa1d89ac207ef8ee9e1ee4/es6-shim.js#L662 ___ es-discuss mailing list es-discuss@mozilla.org https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/es-discuss , ___ es-discuss mailing list es-discuss@mozilla.org https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/es-discuss ___ es-discuss mailing list es-discuss@mozilla.org https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/es-discuss ___ es-discuss mailing list es-discuss@mozilla.org https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/es-discuss ___ es-discuss mailing list es-discuss@mozilla.org https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/es-discuss
Re: Could delete methods rename to remove?
Well, you said that it works in IE8, and I don't care enough to test it, so said about IE6 because it is the same legacy kind of thing. Doesn't matter. Legacy and broken tools is not a valid reason to avoid perfectly good method name, especially considering the fact that it is a valid ES5 syntax everyone should be supporting for years now. "delete" can't stay a "not a reserved word, but kinda not recommended" forever you know, it doesn't make any sense. It should be named "delete" precisely because keyword was named delete, to make all these operators/functions look alike. Naming it "remove" just creates a confusion for no good reason. 18.12.2013, 02:17, "Andrea Giammarchi" andrea.giammar...@gmail.com:IE6 ? ... I don't understand your argument. We are talking about IE8 and polyfills that work already plus this does not solve the main problem which is about tools not always compatible with ES6 and/or future proof and shim aware. If tools were OK you wuld just write wm.delete(obj); and the tool would wrap that for you instead of throwing as these might do today. Regards On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 1:52 PM, Alex Kocharin a...@kocharin.ru wrote: You can't run any ES6 script in a browser that don't support ES6, because they will throw syntax error at the first yield (unless you're using compiler like traceur, but it won't have a problem with getting .delete work either). If you use shims, that's fine, but you're not writing ES6, you're writing ES5+shims, and that's not ES6 because you can't use all the features it introduces. I believe ecmascript isn't versionless yet like html is, and that number means something. If you want to support IE6 without compiling, fine, you can write in ES3+shims using wm['delete'](object) syntax. I don't see it being an issue. 18.12.2013, 00:59, "Andrea Giammarchi" andrea.giammar...@gmail.com:sorry what ? https://github.com/WebReflection/es6-collections#es6-harmony-collections-fast-polyfillhttps://code.google.com/p/es-lab/source/browse/trunk/src/ses/WeakMap.jshttps://github.com/Benvie/ES6-Harmony-Collections-Shimhttps://github.com/paulmillr/es6-shimhttps://gist.github.com/Gozala/1269991 regards On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Alex Kocharin a...@kocharin.ru wrote: ES6 scripts will not work in IE8. Period. What's the point of making it work with a bit more ES6 scripts since all of them will never be supported anyway? I would only welcome if that badly written or outdated software gets exposed this way. 17.12.2013, 22:59, "Andrea Giammarchi" andrea.giammar...@gmail.com:not shold but **does** work ;-) Although I agree that specific thing is very inconvenient in some case and minifiers knows this too. As example, google closure compiler fails with this script in two ways ```_javascript_var wm = new WeakMap;wm.delete(Object);``` Simple minification does the right, resulting in an IE8 safe script such` wm['delete'](Object)` thing but it throws a warning:```JSC_INVALID_ES3_PROP_NAME: Keywords and reserved words are not allowed as unquoted property names in older versions of _javascript_. If you are targeting newer versions of _javascript_, set the appropriate language_in option. at line 2 character 3 wm.delete(Object);``` While in advance mode and no special flags it just breaks resulting in: `(new WeakMap).a(Object);` YUI is not even able to minify that script ... in few words developers tools do not make the usage of these methods in ES6 collections easy to write and use for developers themselves so tey have to remember those square brackets ... pretty silly if you ask me ^_^ ES6#del() or remove() would have been way easier solution ... choosing a reserved word was OKish, but was also asking for few extra gotchas/troubles nobody really needed/wanted. The good part is: nobody will care about IE8 anymore ... and pretty soon!!! Still tools should be smarter about this issue Best RegardsOn Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 1:38 AM, David Bruant bruan...@gmail.com wrote:Le 17/12/2013 10:19, Shijun He a écrit :There are some methods using reserved word "delete", such as Map.prototype.delete, Set.prototype.delete... Though it is allowed since ES5, I think we'd better avoid it because it cause es6 shim solution fail on legacy browsers such as IE8.Note that there is a warning [1] (maybe arguably). Among other incompatibilities, "size" is a getter too. myMap.delete fails, but myMap['delete'] should work. David [1] https://github.com/paulmillr/es6-shim/blob/4322eae20b6f8a7769fa1d89ac207ef8ee9e1ee4/es6-shim.js#L662 ___ es-discuss mailing list es-discuss@mozilla.org https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/es-discuss,___es-discuss mailing listes-discuss@mozilla.orghttps://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/es-discuss___ es-discuss mailing list es-discuss@mozilla.org https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/es-discuss___ es-discuss mailing list
Re: Could delete methods rename to remove?
That's why my first hint was .del() as it is in Python and makes sense since ever and it could have made perfect sense in JS too, also as alias for .delete() while transitioning from ES3 legacy, ES5 quirk engines, and ES.next That being said, I was simply warning that tools might break so this is not just a developer problem but a tooling problem too. I would not change direction now about .delete() it's too late, shims are out, and it makes sense for everything but IE8 (I don't care about IE8 on mobile so I am selfishly OK with that :P) So mine was a double warning plus some thoughts on possible different directions the method name could have taken. Cheers On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 2:53 PM, Alex Kocharin a...@kocharin.ru wrote: Well, you said that it works in IE8, and I don't care enough to test it, so said about IE6 because it is the same legacy kind of thing. Doesn't matter. Legacy and broken tools is not a valid reason to avoid perfectly good method name, especially considering the fact that it is a valid ES5 syntax everyone should be supporting for years now. delete can't stay a not a reserved word, but kinda not recommended forever you know, it doesn't make any sense. It should be named delete precisely because keyword was named delete, to make all these operators/functions look alike. Naming it remove just creates a confusion for no good reason. 18.12.2013, 02:17, Andrea Giammarchi andrea.giammar...@gmail.com: IE6 ? ... I don't understand your argument. We are talking about IE8 and polyfills that work already plus this does not solve the main problem which is about tools not always compatible with ES6 and/or future proof and shim aware. If tools were OK you wuld just write wm.delete(obj); and the tool would wrap that for you instead of throwing as these might do today. Regards On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 1:52 PM, Alex Kocharin a...@kocharin.ru wrote: You can't run any ES6 script in a browser that don't support ES6, because they will throw syntax error at the first yield (unless you're using compiler like traceur, but it won't have a problem with getting .delete work either). If you use shims, that's fine, but you're not writing ES6, you're writing ES5+shims, and that's not ES6 because you can't use all the features it introduces. I believe ecmascript isn't versionless yet like html is, and that number means something. If you want to support IE6 without compiling, fine, you can write in ES3+shims using wm['delete'](object) syntax. I don't see it being an issue. 18.12.2013, 00:59, Andrea Giammarchi andrea.giammar...@gmail.com: sorry what ? https://github.com/WebReflection/es6-collections#es6-harmony-collections-fast-polyfill https://code.google.com/p/es-lab/source/browse/trunk/src/ses/WeakMap.js https://github.com/Benvie/ES6-Harmony-Collections-Shim https://github.com/paulmillr/es6-shim https://gist.github.com/Gozala/1269991 regards On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Alex Kocharin a...@kocharin.ru wrote: ES6 scripts will not work in IE8. Period. What's the point of making it work with a bit more ES6 scripts since all of them will never be supported anyway? I would only welcome if that badly written or outdated software gets exposed this way. 17.12.2013, 22:59, Andrea Giammarchi andrea.giammar...@gmail.com: not shold but **does** work ;-) Although I agree that specific thing is very inconvenient in some case and minifiers knows this too. As example, google closure compiler fails with this script in two ways ```javascript var wm = new WeakMap; wm.delete(Object); ``` Simple minification does the right, resulting in an IE8 safe script such` wm['delete'](Object)` thing but it throws a warning: ``` JSC_INVALID_ES3_PROP_NAME: Keywords and reserved words are not allowed as unquoted property names in older versions of JavaScript. If you are targeting newer versions of JavaScript, set the appropriate language_in option. at line 2 character 3 wm.delete(Object); ``` While in advance mode and no special flags it just breaks resulting in: `(new WeakMap).a(Object);` YUI is not even able to minify that script ... in few words developers tools do not make the usage of these methods in ES6 collections easy to write and use for developers themselves so tey have to remember those square brackets ... pretty silly if you ask me ^_^ ES6#del() or remove() would have been way easier solution ... choosing a reserved word was OKish, but was also asking for few extra gotchas/troubles nobody really needed/wanted. The good part is: nobody will care about IE8 anymore ... and pretty soon!!! Still tools should be smarter about this issue Best Regards On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 1:38 AM, David Bruant bruan...@gmail.com wrote: Le 17/12/2013 10:19, Shijun He a écrit : There are some methods using reserved word delete, such as Map.prototype.delete, Set.prototype.delete... Though it is allowed since ES5, I think we'd
Re: Could delete methods rename to remove?
You may not care about IE8, but many developers in the world MUST care about it. What I suggest is to help ES6 be faster to adopt, you know most team in companies are conservative to edge tech, that's why we need es5-shim or es6-shim projects. It's too bad to write map['delete'], and you can't force all module authors write like that. Tools are helpful, but as Andrea point out, many tools are broken on reserved word up to now. And I think remove is a better name because Java/C# collections all use it. In fact, I don't care about whether it name remove or del, but just dont name it delete, such name just trouble the developers who want to migrate to ES6 step by step. On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 6:53 AM, Alex Kocharin a...@kocharin.ru wrote: Well, you said that it works in IE8, and I don't care enough to test it, so said about IE6 because it is the same legacy kind of thing. Doesn't matter. Legacy and broken tools is not a valid reason to avoid perfectly good method name, especially considering the fact that it is a valid ES5 syntax everyone should be supporting for years now. delete can't stay a not a reserved word, but kinda not recommended forever you know, it doesn't make any sense. It should be named delete precisely because keyword was named delete, to make all these operators/functions look alike. Naming it remove just creates a confusion for no good reason. 18.12.2013, 02:17, Andrea Giammarchi andrea.giammar...@gmail.com: IE6 ? ... I don't understand your argument. We are talking about IE8 and polyfills that work already plus this does not solve the main problem which is about tools not always compatible with ES6 and/or future proof and shim aware. If tools were OK you wuld just write wm.delete(obj); and the tool would wrap that for you instead of throwing as these might do today. Regards On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 1:52 PM, Alex Kocharin a...@kocharin.ru wrote: You can't run any ES6 script in a browser that don't support ES6, because they will throw syntax error at the first yield (unless you're using compiler like traceur, but it won't have a problem with getting .delete work either). If you use shims, that's fine, but you're not writing ES6, you're writing ES5+shims, and that's not ES6 because you can't use all the features it introduces. I believe ecmascript isn't versionless yet like html is, and that number means something. If you want to support IE6 without compiling, fine, you can write in ES3+shims using wm['delete'](object) syntax. I don't see it being an issue. 18.12.2013, 00:59, Andrea Giammarchi andrea.giammar...@gmail.com: sorry what ? https://github.com/WebReflection/es6-collections#es6-harmony-collections-fast-polyfill https://code.google.com/p/es-lab/source/browse/trunk/src/ses/WeakMap.js https://github.com/Benvie/ES6-Harmony-Collections-Shim https://github.com/paulmillr/es6-shim https://gist.github.com/Gozala/1269991 regards On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Alex Kocharin a...@kocharin.ru wrote: ES6 scripts will not work in IE8. Period. What's the point of making it work with a bit more ES6 scripts since all of them will never be supported anyway? I would only welcome if that badly written or outdated software gets exposed this way. 17.12.2013, 22:59, Andrea Giammarchi andrea.giammar...@gmail.com: not shold but **does** work ;-) Although I agree that specific thing is very inconvenient in some case and minifiers knows this too. As example, google closure compiler fails with this script in two ways ```javascript var wm = new WeakMap; wm.delete(Object); ``` Simple minification does the right, resulting in an IE8 safe script such` wm['delete'](Object)` thing but it throws a warning: ``` JSC_INVALID_ES3_PROP_NAME: Keywords and reserved words are not allowed as unquoted property names in older versions of JavaScript. If you are targeting newer versions of JavaScript, set the appropriate language_in option. at line 2 character 3 wm.delete(Object); ``` While in advance mode and no special flags it just breaks resulting in: `(new WeakMap).a(Object);` YUI is not even able to minify that script ... in few words developers tools do not make the usage of these methods in ES6 collections easy to write and use for developers themselves so tey have to remember those square brackets ... pretty silly if you ask me ^_^ ES6#del() or remove() would have been way easier solution ... choosing a reserved word was OKish, but was also asking for few extra gotchas/troubles nobody really needed/wanted. The good part is: nobody will care about IE8 anymore ... and pretty soon!!! Still tools should be smarter about this issue Best Regards On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 1:38 AM, David Bruant bruan...@gmail.com wrote: Le 17/12/2013 10:19, Shijun He a écrit : There are some methods using reserved word delete, such as Map.prototype.delete, Set.prototype.delete... Though it is allowed since ES5, I
Re: Could delete methods rename to remove?
ADVANCED mode requires property definitions for external properties. There aren't ES6 definitions in the default externs for Map or other new features. On Dec 17, 2013 10:59 AM, Andrea Giammarchi andrea.giammar...@gmail.com wrote: not shold but **does** work ;-) Although I agree that specific thing is very inconvenient in some case and minifiers knows this too. As example, google closure compiler fails with this script in two ways ```javascript var wm = new WeakMap; wm.delete(Object); ``` Simple minification does the right, resulting in an IE8 safe script such` wm['delete'](Object)` thing but it throws a warning: ``` JSC_INVALID_ES3_PROP_NAME: Keywords and reserved words are not allowed as unquoted property names in older versions of JavaScript. If you are targeting newer versions of JavaScript, set the appropriate language_in option. at line 2 character 3 wm.delete(Object); ``` While in advance mode and no special flags it just breaks resulting in: `(new WeakMap).a(Object);` YUI is not even able to minify that script ... in few words developers tools do not make the usage of these methods in ES6 collections easy to write and use for developers themselves so tey have to remember those square brackets ... pretty silly if you ask me ^_^ ES6#del() or remove() would have been way easier solution ... choosing a reserved word was OKish, but was also asking for few extra gotchas/troubles nobody really needed/wanted. The good part is: nobody will care about IE8 anymore ... and pretty soon!!! Still tools should be smarter about this issue Best Regards On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 1:38 AM, David Bruant bruan...@gmail.com wrote: Le 17/12/2013 10:19, Shijun He a écrit : There are some methods using reserved word delete, such as Map.prototype.delete, Set.prototype.delete... Though it is allowed since ES5, I think we'd better avoid it because it cause es6 shim solution fail on legacy browsers such as IE8. Note that there is a warning [1] (maybe arguably). Among other incompatibilities, size is a getter too. myMap.delete fails, but myMap['delete'] should work. David [1] https://github.com/paulmillr/es6-shim/blob/ 4322eae20b6f8a7769fa1d89ac207ef8ee9e1ee4/es6-shim.js#L662 ___ es-discuss mailing list es-discuss@mozilla.org https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/es-discuss ___ es-discuss mailing list es-discuss@mozilla.org https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/es-discuss ___ es-discuss mailing list es-discuss@mozilla.org https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/es-discuss
Re: Could delete methods rename to remove?
such name just trouble the developers who want to migrate to ES6 step by step How can you migrate to ES6 if you didn't even migrate to ES5 first? 18.12.2013, 07:17, "Shijun He" hax@gmail.com:You may not care about IE8, but many developers in the world MUST care about it.What I suggest is to help ES6 be faster to adopt, you know most team in companies are conservative to edge tech, that's why we need es5-shim or es6-shim projects. It's too bad to write map['delete'], and you can't force all module authors write like that. Tools are helpful, but as Andrea point out, many tools are broken on reserved word up to now. And I think "remove" is a better name because Java/C# collections all use it.In fact, I don't care about whether it name remove or del, but just dont name it "delete", such name just trouble the developers who want to migrate to ES6 step by step.On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 6:53 AM, Alex Kocharin a...@kocharin.ru wrote: Well, you said that it works in IE8, and I don't care enough to test it, so said about IE6 because it is the same legacy kind of thing. Doesn't matter. Legacy and broken tools is not a valid reason to avoid perfectly good method name, especially considering the fact that it is a valid ES5 syntax everyone should be supporting for years now. "delete" can't stay a "not a reserved word, but kinda not recommended" forever you know, it doesn't make any sense. It should be named "delete" precisely because keyword was named delete, to make all these operators/functions look alike. Naming it "remove" just creates a confusion for no good reason. 18.12.2013, 02:17, "Andrea Giammarchi" andrea.giammar...@gmail.com:IE6 ? ... I don't understand your argument. We are talking about IE8 and polyfills that work already plus this does not solve the main problem which is about tools not always compatible with ES6 and/or future proof and shim aware. If tools were OK you wuld just write wm.delete(obj); and the tool would wrap that for you instead of throwing as these might do today. Regards On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 1:52 PM, Alex Kocharin a...@kocharin.ru wrote: You can't run any ES6 script in a browser that don't support ES6, because they will throw syntax error at the first yield (unless you're using compiler like traceur, but it won't have a problem with getting .delete work either). If you use shims, that's fine, but you're not writing ES6, you're writing ES5+shims, and that's not ES6 because you can't use all the features it introduces. I believe ecmascript isn't versionless yet like html is, and that number means something. If you want to support IE6 without compiling, fine, you can write in ES3+shims using wm['delete'](object) syntax. I don't see it being an issue. 18.12.2013, 00:59, "Andrea Giammarchi" andrea.giammar...@gmail.com:sorry what ? https://github.com/WebReflection/es6-collections#es6-harmony-collections-fast-polyfillhttps://code.google.com/p/es-lab/source/browse/trunk/src/ses/WeakMap.jshttps://github.com/Benvie/ES6-Harmony-Collections-Shimhttps://github.com/paulmillr/es6-shimhttps://gist.github.com/Gozala/1269991 regards On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Alex Kocharin a...@kocharin.ru wrote: ES6 scripts will not work in IE8. Period. What's the point of making it work with a bit more ES6 scripts since all of them will never be supported anyway? I would only welcome if that badly written or outdated software gets exposed this way. 17.12.2013, 22:59, "Andrea Giammarchi" andrea.giammar...@gmail.com:not shold but **does** work ;-) Although I agree that specific thing is very inconvenient in some case and minifiers knows this too. As example, google closure compiler fails with this script in two ways ```_javascript_var wm = new WeakMap;wm.delete(Object);``` Simple minification does the right, resulting in an IE8 safe script such` wm['delete'](Object)` thing but it throws a warning:```JSC_INVALID_ES3_PROP_NAME: Keywords and reserved words are not allowed as unquoted property names in older versions of _javascript_. If you are targeting newer versions of _javascript_, set the appropriate language_in option. at line 2 character 3 wm.delete(Object);``` While in advance mode and no special flags it just breaks resulting in: `(new WeakMap).a(Object);` YUI is not even able to minify that script ... in few words developers tools do not make the usage of these methods in ES6 collections easy to write and use for developers themselves so tey have to remember those square brackets ... pretty silly if you ask me ^_^ ES6#del() or remove() would have been way easier solution ... choosing a reserved word was OKish, but was also asking for few extra gotchas/troubles nobody really needed/wanted. The good part is: nobody will care about IE8 anymore ... and pretty soon!!! Still tools should be smarter about this issue Best RegardsOn Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 1:38 AM, David Bruant bruan...@gmail.com wrote:Le 17/12/2013 10:19, Shijun He a écrit :There are some methods using reserved word "delete", such as
Re: Could delete methods rename to remove?
On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 11:30 AM, Rick Waldron waldron.r...@gmail.comwrote: Right, and map[delete](key) works fine. The future of the language itself should not be impaired by a browser that has an expiration date. No, it does NOT work. Because you can't ask all module/library authors write like that. And that means even such modules should be work in old browsers with ES6-shim, they actually fail just because a simple name problem. And, ES6 and any future version of this language already impaired by legacy browsers. For example, typeof null MUST be 'object'. The proposed collection APIs have been public for _years_ with a delete method. It's really not as bad as you're making seem, please be objective. Yes they are here for years, but most JS devs never know about it. And I am sure I can represent some of them. ___ es-discuss mailing list es-discuss@mozilla.org https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/es-discuss
Re: Could delete methods rename to remove?
On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 11:28 AM, Alex Kocharin a...@kocharin.ru wrote: How can you migrate to ES6 if you didn't even migrate to ES5 first? Even IE5 (pre-ES3) can use string.prototype.repeat with simple shim. And with es6 shim, Map/Set SHOULD works on IE5, and all modules depend on Map/Set (but not depend on complex features such as Proxy) also works. So that's what I mean migration step by step. Some of your codes migrate to ES6 API, but keep working on legacy browsers. It's very important for real products. Or migration is totally impossible until 2023 if all pre-ES6 browsers disappear it that time. ___ es-discuss mailing list es-discuss@mozilla.org https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/es-discuss
Re: Could delete methods rename to remove?
On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 10:45 PM, Shijun He hax@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 11:30 AM, Rick Waldron waldron.r...@gmail.comwrote: Right, and map[delete](key) works fine. The future of the language itself should not be impaired by a browser that has an expiration date. No, it does NOT work. Because you can't ask all module/library authors write like that. Submit patches—libraries intended for use in IE8 should be made to support that platform, it's that simple. And that means even such modules should be work in old browsers with ES6-shim, they actually fail just because a simple name problem. And, ES6 and any future version of this language already impaired by legacy browsers. For example, typeof null MUST be 'object'. Wrong—that impairment has nothing to do with browsers, but with _existing_ code that makes incorrect assumptions (or none at all) about the return value of typeof. Rick ___ es-discuss mailing list es-discuss@mozilla.org https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/es-discuss
Re: Could delete methods rename to remove?
On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 11:02 PM, Shijun He hax@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 11:28 AM, Alex Kocharin a...@kocharin.ru wrote: How can you migrate to ES6 if you didn't even migrate to ES5 first? Even IE5 (pre-ES3) can use string.prototype.repeat with simple shim. And with es6 shim, Map/Set SHOULD works on IE5, and all modules depend on Map/Set (but not depend on complex features such as Proxy) also works. I doubt it. https://github.com/paulmillr/es6-shim/blob/master/es6-shim.js#L30-L34 So that's what I mean migration step by step. Some of your codes migrate to ES6 API, but keep working on legacy browsers. It's very important for real products. Or migration is totally impossible until 2023 if all pre-ES6 browsers disappear it that time. I estimate the new version of ECMAScript will be either 9 or 10 in 2023 ;) Rick ___ es-discuss mailing list es-discuss@mozilla.org https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/es-discuss
