EV digest 6433

[Electric Vehicle Discussion List]

EV Digest 6433

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) RE: Battery charger recommendation
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  2) Sprinter van
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  3) RE: Cost to drive a EV
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  4) Living in an EV,   was Re: EV digest 6431
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  5) Re: FreedomEV Competition - or just more hype?
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  6) RE: converting auto to man trans
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  7) Re: EV digest 6432
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  8) RE: Brake Pressure Multiplier?
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  9) RE: Brake Pressure Multiplier?
by "Dave Davidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 10) Re: Wiring up a Kostov...
by "Andrew A." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 11) Re: EV digest 6432
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 12) Re: EV digest 6432
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 13) Re: EV digest 6430
by "FRED JEANETTE MERTENS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 14) Sunrise EV kitcar,  was Re: Lithium Technology, Innosys
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 15) Re: FreedomEV Competition - or just more hype?
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 16) Re: Wide vs Skinny Tires LRR
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 17) Low Rolling Resistance Tires
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 18) Re: NiMH Batteries (was Re: Introductions)
by Mark Freidberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
On 16 Feb 2007 at 22:41, David Hrivnak wrote:

> Do you mind me asking what advantages did you see in
> the Delta-Q over the Zivan chargers?

I'm not Steve, but I'm going to take a guess : reliability and usability.  
Zivan chargers are infamous for frequent failures.  Their charge algorithms 
are also infamous for beating the life out of batteries.  

A pity really as Zivans are very reasonably priced, lightweight, isolated 
switchmode chargers.  

If only Zivan had fitted higher quality components, and made it possible for 
users to tweak the charge control themselves.  Of course then the price 
would have been higher.

Delta-Q chargers are reportedly of higher quality, though I think I recall 
reading that they're produced by contract assembly plants in China.  

Also, regrettably, the Delta-Q algorithm is not under user control.  With 
some chargers, when a battery in your pack goes south, you can just remove 
it, adjust the charger's finish voltage, and keep driving for a while.  Not 
so with a Zivan or Delta-Q.  Such changes require factory (or perhaps 
dealer) intervention.


David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator

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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A nice and informative website about the Mercedes/Dodge Sprinter van,
its various models and smaller brothers and a lot of details about
what others changed to the van.
Look at the last paragraph!
http://www.whnet.com/4x4/sprinter.html
 
Cor.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Ralph,

Yes, all batteries are always connected and all strings are connected at the
ends, with each string usually having a separate fuse of 100A to 250A,
depending on how much continuous current you normally draw, divided by the
nr of strings.
You may use multiple contactors and not connect the thick battery cables at
the ends when the car is not operated, but I would still like to see the
soft-linking of the ends of that side of the string, to be able to match the
batteries at the end.

You could disconnect all soft links with as many relays as batteries in one
string:
For 3 strings, you need 2 contacts in each relay, they make the connection
from the positive side of a battery in one string to the corresponding
battery's positive side in another string.
I assume that the neg side of the first battery in each string are all
connected together permanently.

I do not keep record of failures, I hope my memory serves me right as this
subject has been discussed before, there too several failing buddy-pairs
were mentioned, I know about Michael Bearden's Porsche.

Hope this helps,
Cor.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ralph Merwin
Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 6:22 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Cost to drive a EV


Cor,

You bring up some interesting points.  One aspect that I am uncomfortable
about when using buddy pairs is that I can't 'see'

EV digest 6434

[Electric Vehicle Discussion List]

EV Digest 6434

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: Wide vs Skinny Tires LRR
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  2) Re: Copper buss bars...
by Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  3) Re: Copper buss bars...
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  4) Re: First post
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  5) Re: EV digest 6433
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  6) Re: NiMH Batteries (was Re: Introductions)
by "Bruce" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  7) Re: NiMH Batteries (was Re: Introductions)
by "D3" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  8) Re: At what cd (drag coef) and roof size for a van would the drag  of 
the vehicle be less than the electricity generating rate of pv's  on the 
roof?
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  9) Re: At what cd (drag coef) and roof size for a van would the drag  of 
the vehicle be less than the electricity generating rate of pv's  on the 
roof?
by Steve Condie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 10) RE: Brake Pressure Multiplier?
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 11) Re: Copper buss bars...
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 12) Re: NiMH Batteries (was Re: Introductions)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 13) EV reality (was: EV digest 6432)
by Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 14) Re: NiMH Batteries (was Re: Introductions)
by Kenneth Dove <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 15) Re: EV digest 6432
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 16) Re: NiMH Batteries (was Re: Introductions)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 17) Re: NiMH Batteries (was Re: Introductions)
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 18) Re: At what cd (drag coef) and roof size for a van would the drag  
 of the vehicle be less than the electricity generating rate of 
 pv's  on the roof?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 19) Re: EV digest 6431
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.greenseal.org/resources/reports/CGR_tire_rollingresistance.pdf
LRR tire list.
- Original Message - 
From: "Ricky Suiter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV List" 
Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 12:59 PM
Subject: RE: Wide vs Skinny Tires LRR


>
>
> Wow! That's some fat rubber!
>
> I don't know if there is a formula, but in theory the less contact there
is
> with the road the less friction you have to overcome. On my Saturn
conversion
> I focused a lot on reducing losses in the wheels. The car had some no-name
> 195 width tires on it, which I think was the stock tire size. I ended up
putting
> a 185/60R15 Goodyear Integrity tire on it. These are "fuel efficient" as
they
> say on the web site. I have no rolling resistance numbers for them but
they are
> used on a lot of OEM vehicles. Between going a little skinnier and the
rolling
> resistance it made a good 10 amp improvement in current draw in the city!
>
> >From there I bought some Kosie racing wheels from Tire Rack. The 15's
only weigh
> 12.6 lbs, which is ~8 lbs a piece less than the stock Saturn alloys! This
made the
> biggest difference of all. Not only do they look good but what took 200
amps to
> accelerate now only took 150 amps to accelerate just as quickly. The car
wouln't
> roll quite as much after you took your foot of the go pedal (though I'm
sure if I
> took it up to 50 and let off the pedal it would still take a few miles
before the
> car came to a stop).
>
> Rick
>
>
>
> ---
> I'm interested in this formula as well.  I have fairly large tires
> 275/60/15 - about 10 inches wide and I'm thinking about changing them
> to
> a narrower tire.  Would my money be well spent here?
>
> John Grigg
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/723
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Mark E. Hanson
> Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 5:09 AM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Wide vs Skinny Tires LRR
>
> Hi,
>
>   Is there a formulae for tire width vs LRR?  I need to buy new tires
> for my electric Porsche and there are P155, P165 and P195 options.  I
> assume that the skinnier tire always wins in LRR but by what
> measureable
> percentage?  Is there measureable data or a formulae for width, are we
> talking about 5% range difference (or MPG) or is it a fraction of a
> percent?  When wider tires are used there's obviously a larger contact
> patch area but the pressure to the road per square inch is decreased so
> it may not be a huge percentage.
>
>   Best Regards,
>   Mark
>
>
> -
> Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate
> in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q&A.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---

At 08:36 AM 2/16/2007, you wrote:

Hi everyone,

I am in the process of wiring up my truck (120v
system, 9" Kostov) and I've decided that I want to use
copper buss bars instead of 2/0 and lugs for some of
the shorter connections.

I was just wondering, wh

EV digest 6435

[Electric Vehicle Discussion List]

EV Digest 6435

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) craigs list scooter for the flats or hills if you weigh under 140 pounds.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  2) RE: At what cd (drag coef) and roof size for a van would the drag  
  of the vehicle be less than the electricity generating rate of 
 pv's   on the roof?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  3) Re: EV digest 6432
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  4) Re: NiMH Batteries (was Re: Introductions)
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  5) Re: EV digest 6427
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  6) Re: NiMH Batteries (was Re: Introductions)
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  7) Re: EV digest 6434
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  8) Off Topic Biodiesel (was Re: First post)
by "Tom Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  9) Re: At what cd (drag coef) and roof size for a van would the drag  of 
the vehicle be less than the electricity generating rate of pv's  on the 
roof?
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 10) Re: Brake Pressure Multiplier?
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 11) RE: Brake Pressure Multiplier?
by "Dave Davidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 12) RE: FreedomEV Competition - or just more hype?
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 13) Re: EV digest 6434
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 14) First eBox Delivered to Tom Hanks
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 15) Re: NiMH Batteries (was Re: Introductions)
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 16) Re: NiMH Batteries (was Re: Introductions)
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 17) Re: NiMH Batteries (was Re: Introductions)
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 18) Re: FreedomEV Competition - or just more hype?
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 19) Re: At what cd (drag coef) and roof size for a van would the drag  of 
the vehicle be less than the electricity generating rate of pv's  on the 
roof?
by Steve Condie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 20) Re: EV digest 6434
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/mcy/279392274.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> let's be generous and say that we get 100W out of every 2ft length of van.
> To get 20 kW it will need to be 400 ft long.
> That is why you don't see a car run forever on a freeway on solar panels
> alone.

And that of course assumes that a 400 ft long van doesn't weight any more
or have any extra drag.  I came up with closer to 800 feet, then again I
started with the Sprinter's frontal area (about 50% more than an S10)

-- 
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message.  By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: csilver
> assuming money was no object, could you build a vehicle from  
> scratch out of titanium or carbon fibre in order for it to be lightweight
> enough to make a difference? Or will something 6'x15'x6' (WxLxH)
> still be too big to go anywhere faster than a snail?

Well, you can certainly do a lot better than normal production vehicles!

A small light car (Geo Metro, VW Golf) needs around 15 hp (250 watthours per 
mile) to drive at 60 mph . A small pickup or minivan (Chevy S-10, VW Microbus) 
is more like 21 hp (350 wh/mi). A full-size van like the Sprinter is higher 
yet; perhaps 27 hp (450 wh/mi).

If you convert an existing vehicle, the sort of tweaking and adjustments people 
can do themselves (low rolling resistance tires, aerodynamic modifications, 
alignment, lighter oils, fix dragging brakes, etc.) can improve on these by 
20-30%.

If you build a vehicle from scratch, there are many more things you can do. 
People have built vehicles that use about half the above amounts of power. For 
example, the GM EV1 was as low as 160 wh/mi, and the Solectria Sunrise I'm 
working on got down to 120 wh/mi.

Special "no holds barred" vehicles can get even lower. The solar race cars are 
around 20 wh/mi; the Swiss Twike is 40 wh/mi. These tend to be ultra-light 
ultra-streamlined ultra-efficient vehicles that are very far from normal.

If you are "up" for a big project, it is possible to build an ultra-light, 
ultra-streamlined, ultra-efficient vehicle that is big enough to live/camp in. 
It would probably look like the Ultravan, or Buckminster Fuller's Dymaxion car 
(scaled to whatever size you needed). Be aware that you would be exploring 
largely uncharted areas; most people have no experience in this, so their 
advice is likely to be mostly "noise".

If you want something you can do right now, on a budget, with limited skills 
and resources, you might look for one of the old postal step-vans that have 
been the subject of EV conversions. Candidates include a Grumman postal v

EV digest 6436

[Electric Vehicle Discussion List]

EV Digest 6436

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: NiMH Batteries (was Re: Introductions)
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  2) Re: At what cd (drag coef) and roof size for a van would the drag  of 
the vehicle be less than the electricity generating rate of pv's  on the 
roof?
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  3) Re: NiMH Batteries (was Re: Introductions)
by "Bruce" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  4) Re: NiMH Batteries (was Re: Introductions)
by "Bruce" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  5) Re: NiMH Batteries (was Re: Introductions)
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  6) Re: EV digest 6432
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  7) Re: At what cd (drag coef) and roof size for a van would the drag  
  of the vehicle be less than the electricity generating rate of  pv's  
 on the roof?
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  8) Vexing issue w/ battery/controller.  Nobody responded last time
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  9) Re: EV digest 6435
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 10) Re: NiMH Batteries (was Re: Introductions)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 11) Re: Vexing issue w/ battery/controller.  Nobody responded last time
by JS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 12) Re: EV digest 6435
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 13) Re: NiMH Batteries (was Re: Introductions)
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 14) Re: NiMH Batteries (was Re: Introductions)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 15) RE: Battery charger recommendation
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 16) RE: Vexing issue w/ battery/controller.  Nobody responded last time
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 17) Parts for High School Project
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 18) Looking for crimp dies for very small ring terminals
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 19) RE: FreedomEV Competition - or just more hype?
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
ANd what exactly do you think congress can do about it?  THe whole point
of Patent law is to protect the patent holder, they are allowed to do just
about anything they want with the patent, including NOT building it.
This has been done numerous times in the past.  SOmeone will patent
something that threatens a big company, so they buy the patent and sit on
it.

It's called capitalism and its how our country works.

> I'd love to see the lawsuit and the licensing agreement.
>
> If it specifically restricts electric vehicles I'd like to send it to
> some congress members and activists.
>
> On Sat, 17 Feb 2007 2:24 pm, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>>
>>>  Right but has the EAA ever tried to enter into
>>>  discussions with Chevron over releasing the patent
>>>  rights?
>>
>>
>> They won't (they're an Oil company remember)  In fact they sued (and
>> won)
>> Panasonic when Panasonic tried making EV size NiMH because it violated
>> their license with Cobasys which SPECIFICALLY states that they can NOT
>> make EV size batteries.  In fact I believe the words Electric Vehicle
>> are
>> in the licensing agreement.
>>
>>
>>>  Mark
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  --- Robert Lemke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>
  Because Chevron Oil now owns the patent rights for
  NiMH batteries of the size of 10 a/hr and larger.

Bob

  Mark Freidberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Why can't the EAA hire some fundraiser(s), rake in
  the
  cash, initialize an EV-size NIMH production
  facility,
  and sell to members at an affordable price? How hard
  can it be?

  Mark


  --- Lee Hart wrote:

  > Ian Hooper wrote:
  > > Interesting about the Cobasys/Chevron
  > relationship, why am I not
  > > surprised!?
  > >
  > > There are a few Chinese manufacturers of large
  > capacity NiMHs, e.g
  > > http://nthaiyang.en.alibaba.com/. They are
  pretty
  > expensive though, I
  > > got quoted US$153ea for 1.2V, 80Ah (600A peak
  > discharge) cells, so it's
  > > heading towards $20K for a ~10kWh pack! Ouch.
  > >
  > > The option I'm currently looking at are Sub-Cs,
  > due to their high
  > > discharge rate (>10C). Manufacturer direct,
  > they're about US$1.50 each
  > > for 1.2v 3.5Ah, I'll need about 2500 of them for
  > 10kWh. So twice the
  > > price of the best lead acid, but half the weight
  > and hopefully longer
  > > cycle life. Using that many individual cells
  seems
  > silly, but it has
  > > been done before, e.g the Tesla Roadster, or
  White
  > Lightning
  >
  > Lots of people are trying to use hundreds to
  > thousands of small cells
  > to make an EV sized battery pack. There are lots
  of
  > problems! Frankly,
  > I'm pessimistic -- NO ONE has any long-term
  > experience yet. I think it
  > works in the short term, but will prov