Re: [EVDL] GC batteries
EVDL Administrator via EV wrote: Lee Hart via EV wrote: I had a 1980 C-car. Its charger was pretty crude, but it was a little more than this... http://www.evdl.org/docs/c_car_charger.jpg Yep; that's it! :-) This circuit is in my 1973 GE SCR manual, and goes back even further than that (GE Application Note 200.33) Notice no current control of any kind. No shutoff timer. It simply keeps reducing the on-time as the voltage approaches the set-point. But it just keeps charging forever; it never turns off or switches to a lower float voltage. It would be death to lithiums. I don't recall the hysterisis. There isn't any. As the battery approaches full, the duty cycle gets very short, eventually reaching a second or less. Agreed. Nevertheless, it still keeps switching back on every minute or so, to charge some more. It's a nice simple cheap charger, suitable for flooded lead-acid batteries. But it would be bad for AGMs, and especially bad for lithiums. As for the need for a BMS, we don't know anything about Gail's adoptee, but I would caution against assuming that he can (or wants to) invest significant amounts of time in EV maintenance. We want this person to have a good experience with his C-car. Absolutely! C-cars are crude little vehicles, but are still a great set of training wheels and can be a lot of fun. There are lots of things 'broken', but everything is easy to fix if you're even slightly mechanically inclined. The average person just wants to drive the car, not babysit it. The era of regular automotive self maintenance is just about over. Aye, and that's the rub. Unless Gail knows the buyer very well (and the buyer knows *himself* pretty well), we don't want him to steer him in over his head, into something he can't afford and can't fix. Few auto owners pop the hood weekly or even monthly. Many never open it at all. Part of the problem is that cars have become so complicated that they scare away people, even those who want to do their own maintenance. In this respect, the ComutaCar is a breath of fresh air. It's easier to work on than an old VW Beetle, or even the old Ford model T! -- The greatest pleasure in life is to create something that wasn't there before. -- Roy Spence -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
[EVDL] EVLN: Ford selling-out w/ the old hiring-in w/ the new EV engineers
'4 purchase: balance battery to extend life, and regenerative system to drive further on a charge' http://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/ford/2015/05/28/bill-ford-sell-patents-electric-vehicles-mackinac-policy-conference/28034775/ For sale: Ford electric vehicle technology patents By Alisa Priddle May 28, 2015 Ford plans to hire 200 engineers this year to work on electrification programs in the new lab Ford recently built in Dearborn to expand this work Bill Ford's sustainability efforts continue with the decision to offer competitors access to the automaker's patents on its electric vehicle technology as the company adds engineers to ramp up research for future vehicles. Executive Chairman Ford was to make the announcement today during a speech at the Mackinac Policy Conference, calling it a move to help accelerate industry-wide research and development of electrified vehicles. Ford owns more than 25,000 patents in the U.S. In 2014, Ford filed more than 2,000 new applications, of which more than 400 patents — or 20% — were related to electric vehicle technologies. As the automaker sells older technology, Ford plans to hire 200 engineers this year to work on electrification programs in the new lab Ford recently built in Dearborn to expand this work. Innovation is our goal, said Kevin Layden, director, Ford Electrification Programs, in a release. The way to provide the best technology is through constant development and progress. By sharing our research with other companies, we will accelerate the growth of electrified vehicle technology and deliver even better products to customers. Ford's patents and published patent applications are available through the technology commercialization and licensing office. Interested parties can also work through AutoHarvest, a nonprofit group co-founded by industry expert David Cole to accelerate widespread adoption of new technologies. AutoHarvest posts technical worksheets on the available patents that can be purchased for a fee. Most automakers license their technology and then sell the innovations they no longer plan to use or license older versions of technology they still utilizes for a reduced royalty fee. Ford's patent division licenses everything from drawings to logos to inflatable seatbelts. The money is reinvested in engineering of new technology. Ford has six hybrid or fully electrified vehicles for the Ford and Lincoln brands. The automaker has more than 650 electrified vehicle patents and approximately 1,000 pending patent applications related to electrification. As an industry, we need to collaborate while we continue to challenge each other, said Layden. By sharing ideas, companies can solve bigger challenges and help improve the industry. Among the patents for purchase: a way to balance a battery charge to extend its life and a regenerative brake system to drive further on a charge. [© freep.com] http://www.autonews.com/article/20150528/OEM05/150529875/ford-to-make-ev-technology-patents-available-to-rivals Ford to make EV technology patents available to rivals Nick Bunkley May 28, 2015 The Focus EV is one of Ford's six fully electric or hybrid vehicles. DETROIT -- Ford Motor Co. is following Tesla Motors in opening up hundreds of patents on electric-car technology to competitors in a move aimed at accelerating development of electrified vehicles. Ford’s plan differs from Tesla’s, though, in that Ford is licensing its patents for a fee, whereas Tesla last year made its patents available to anyone for free. “Innovation is our goal,” Kevin Layden, director of Ford electrification programs, said today in a statement. “The way to provide the best technology is through constant development and progress. By sharing our research with other companies, we will accelerate the growth of electrified vehicle technology and deliver even better products to customers.” Ford said it has more than 650 patents and about 1,000 pending patent applications related to hybrid and plug-in vehicles. The automaker said it filed more than 400 patents for those technologies last year alone, accounting for more than 20 percent of its 2014 filings, and plans to hire 200 more electrified-vehicle engineers this year to further its research in that area. Among the patents Ford is making available are ones covering a method for extending battery run time and overall life, a technology to maximize the amount of energy recaptured through regenerative braking, and a system that monitors a person’s driving and provides feedback on how to improve fuel economy. Obtaining patents Ford said its patents can be obtained through its technology commercialization and licensing office or through the AutoHarvest Foundation, a nonprofit that Ford helped found in 2012. Ford has previously made some patents, such as one for inflatable seat belts, available for licensing through AutoHarvest, as have other automakers and suppliers. A Ford spokesman said pricing for the patents
[EVDL] EVLN: I really love how EVs are utterly ridiculously cheap 2operate
http://www.ocregister.com/articles/electric-663224-vehicles-battery.html
Village gets amped at electric car show
May 27, 2015 | BY JENNIFER KARMARKAR
[image / MATT MASIN
http://images.onset.freedom.com/ocregister/article/np0zcw-b88403725z.12015052713000g1a9ugmt.10.jpg
Residents of Laguna Woods get a closer look at ... an electric vehicle show
hosted by the Energy Club on May 21 at Clubhouse Three.
]
It does 0 to 60 in 7.2 seconds, it’s quiet and it takes curves like a dream.
It’s the 2014 Chevy Spark, one of several all-electric and hybrid vehicles
on display in the Clubhouse Three parking lot last week. About 70 residents
turned out for the May 21 event, sponsored by the Energy Club to raise
awareness about electric cars.
Featured were the Ford Fusion Energi and C-Max, Volkswagen e-Golf, Nissan
Leaf and Tesla 85D. A resident-owned Chevy Volt and a Chevy Spark were also
on display.
Energy Club President Bert Moldow noted that until recently you could count
the number of electric vehicles on one hand. “Today there are more than 20
models from a dozen car makers, ranging from the Porsche and Cadillac to the
Spark.”
Resident Ronald Galbraith was the first person in Orange County to own a
2014 Chevy Spark EV when he purchased his in July 2013.
“It’s an absolute trip; I really love it,” he said, adding that it’s
“utterly, ridiculously cheap to operate.”
The Spark is a battery electric vehicle, which derives all its power from a
battery pack and has no internal combustion engine or fuel tank. Plug-in
vehicles such as the Spark can be fully charged in about seven hours on a
220-volt outlet.
Once charged, they have a range of about 80 miles.
Galbraith contends that for a retired person who doesn’t drive long
distances, an electric vehicle is perfect. Still, you have to be clever
about how you make your trips, he added.
When he visits his son in Ontario, he leaves an hour or two early, stops at
a Carl’s Jr. to re-charge, has breakfast and reads the paper.
“That way I make sure I won’t have a problem getting home,” he said.
Plugging in in the Village can be tricky, especially for United Mutual
residents. Their board recently banned using carport outlets to charge
electric vehicles. Those who do will be slapped with a $50 fine each day the
vehicle is in violation.
Board President Pat English said the carports in United are fed from a
single breaker, so there isn’t enough electrical capacity to charge
vehicles. Residents can install a charging station at their own cost by
bringing power from their electric meter to their carport, she said.
Moldow said Golden Rain Foundation may put 110-volt chargers at Clubhouses
Three and Five.
Until then, residents can use the charging stations at Carl’s Jr, which cost
about 50 cents per hour. There also are charging stations at the Irvine
Spectrum. And those who don’t mind the wait can plug in at dealerships
selling electric vehicles ...
Resident Steve Leonard said ... A tire-rotation at 7,500 miles is about the
only maintenance needed, he said.
“It’s clean, it’s quiet, it’s comfortable, and I don’t have to stop for
gas,” Leonard said.
Up to $10,000 in federal and state rebates is available on the purchase of
qualified electric vehicles. Another perk: Single drivers can use HOV lanes.
[© ocregister.com]
http://www.tnledger.com/editorial/Article.aspx?id=81483
Chevy electric's price Sparks a run on sales
By Ann M. Job | AP VOL. 39 | NO. 22 | May 29, 2015
It took a price cut to generate a run on Chevrolet's 2015 Spark EV, with
savvy car buyers realizing the lower price and federal electric vehicle tax
credit can make ...
For EVLN posts use:
http://evdl.org/evln/
http://www.autoblog.com/2015/05/30/chevy-bolt-trademark-application-suspended-uspto/
200mi GM EV trademark application suspended by USPTO
http://thenewswheel.com/update-chevy-bolt-name-denied-by-us-patent-office/
...
http://www.leftlanenews.com/chevy-ev-denied-trademark-for-bolt-name-88648.html
Chevy EV denied trademark for Bolt name
http://www.torquenews.com/3618/smoking-hot-electric-cars-chevy-volt
EVS less-likely to catch fire, non-EVS are more likely to burn
http://michiganradio.org/post/lawmakers-eye-electric-vehicles-road-money
MI Rep Lawmakers eye EVs as source of road-tax money
May 25th 2015
http://www.autoevolution.com/news/the-gas-pump-is-more-germ-infested-than-money-maybe-it-s-time-to-switch-to-evs-95904.html
The Gas Pump is More Germ-Infested than Money, It's Time to Switch to EVs
... switch to an electric vehicle, but that shouldn't stop you from washing
your hands ...
http://www.wiltsglosstandard.co.uk/news/12961020.Electric_charging_point_in_Beeches_Car_park_Cirencester_up_and_runnning/
Multi-type EVSE @Beeches Car park Cirencester.uk
+
EVLN: Ford selling-out w/ the old and hiring-in w/ the new EV engineers
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[EVDL] EVLN: World’s largest 577 EV parade takes place in Berlin.de (v)
http://www.autoevolution.com/news/new-guinness-world-record-set-by-577-evs-during-berlin-eprix-video-95848.html
New Guinness World Record Set by 577 EVs During Berlin ePrix - Video
by Tudor Rus 26th May 2015
[image
http://s1.cdn.autoevolution.com/images/news-314/new-guinness-world-record-set-by-577-evs-during-berlin-eprix-video-95848-7.jpg
video flash
]
When you think of the EV/PHEV trend in the automotive world, it's hard to
consider it an invasion. In fact, it could be described more like a flower
that has just started to bloom, but nothing very intrusive at this moment.
However, it's only after seeing 577 electric vehicles parading on a circuit
in front of 21,000 spectators when you realize green cars are a big deal,
one worthy of a Guinness World Record.
While race cars were gearing up for the Berlin ePrix, the electric convoy
started to move on the 3.4-kilometer (2.1 miles) race track. The majority of
participants, as you might expect, came from Germany, but Switzerland,
Austria and Czech Republic sent quite a few green ambassadors at the event.
Now, can you guess what was the most represented vehicle at the parade? If
you're thinking Tesla Model S, you're half-right. Believe it or not, there
were 111 Citroen C-Zero models taking part in the show, and 96 Tesla Model S
EVs. The list also consisted of 59 Nissan Leafs and 36 BMW i3s.
Nevertheless, the initiative was a success according to the organizers:
“Berlin has certainly raised the bar and it was impressive to see the
support and enthusiasm of so many people for setting up this new world
record with the aim to promote electric mobility,” said Swiss environmental
adventurer and 80 Day Race Ambassador Louis Palmer.
After everything was over, the new Guinness World Record was confirmed. The
previous record was set last year in September when 507 EVs took Silicon
Valley by (electrical) storm.
[© autoevolution.com]
http://ecomento.com/2015/05/28/worlds-largest-ev-parade-berlin/
World’s largest electric car parade takes place in Berlin (w/images video)
May 28, 2015 |
[images / Wavetrophy
http://cdn.ecomento.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Wavetrophy-electric-car-2015-Berlin-5-740x425.jpg
http://cdn.ecomento.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Wavetrophy-electric-car-2015-Berlin-1-740x425.jpg
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http://cdn.ecomento.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Wavetrophy-electric-car-2015-Berlin-2-740x425.jpg
http://cdn.ecomento.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Wavetrophy-electric-car-2015-Berlin-7-740x425.jpg
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http://cdn.ecomento.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Wavetrophy-electric-car-2015-Berlin-9-740x425.jpg
video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJ-pesSMMlA
WAVE World Record Run at the DHL Berlin ePrix
Ralf-Martin Tauer May 23, 2015
YES! The current non-official counting is at 577 cars which have
participated to the Guinness world record attempt during the DHL FIA Formula
e GP at the former Berlin Tempelhof airport. This means that we've got it!
WAVE broke the official world record for the longest EV parade and pushed
the limit further up from the previous 508 vehicles. The WAVE electric car
rally will begin on the 12th of June 2015 in Berlin, stay tuned for more
electric vehicle achievements and join us along the route! The video from
the 2015 world record:
https://youtu.be/AJ-pesSMMlA
]
Guinness has confirmed: The largest ever parade of electric vehicles
occurred in Berlin during the Formula E Berlin ePrix. The parade consisted
of 577 EVs, easily beating Silicon Valley’s old record of 507. It included
scooters, cars, trucks, and luxury cars, and was viewed by 21,000
spectators.
Here’s Louis Palmer, known for receiving the UN’s Chmapion pf the Earth
Award after driving twice around the world in solar-only vehicles:
“Berlin has certainly raised the bar and it was impressive to see the
support and enthusiasm of so many people for setting up this new world
record with the aim to promote electric mobility.”
Participants came from across the globe, with countries like Austria,
Switzerland, India, the United Kingdom, Turkey, Sweden, the Netherlands,
Slovakia, Italy, Norway, and the Czech Republic all lending a few drivers.
[© ecomento.com]
http://www.nextgreencar.com/news/7098/world-record-for-largest-ev-parade/
World record for largest EV parade
Ben Lane 29th May 2015
[image
http://www.nextgreencar.com/i/news_xlarge/world-record-largest-ev-parade-f7296708.jpg
A fleet of Nissan LEAFs take part in the Berlin EV parade
]
For EVLN posts use:
http://evdl.org/evln/
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[EVDL] EVent: Polaris Victory Electric-Motorcycle @Isle of Man TT race 6/7 UK
http://overdrive.in/news/video-polaris-owned-victory-motorcycles-to-go-racing-in-june1/
Video: Polaris owned Victory Motorcycles to go racing in June
28 May 2015
[image
http://overdrive.in/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/victory-at-the-tt-ls-profile.jpg
The Victory Racing Isle of Man TT race bike
]
Victory Motorcycles, subsidiary brand of Polaris industries seems to be
getting further and further immersed into the world of two-wheeled
motorsport. This June, Victory will compete in two of the toughest races on
two wheels – the Isle of Mann TT and Pikes Peak.
The motorcycles they will be racing will also be a far cry from the cruisers
and badger style motorcycles that they are known for. At the moment, Polaris
has no plans to bring the Victory brand to India.
For the Isle of Man TT race on June 7, they will be participating in the
electric class and this will also make it the first time they will be racing
in Europe. The high power electric engines will be provided by Parker
Systems, a world leader in control and motion technology, but considering
that electric vehicle manufacturer, Brammo (also acquired by Polaris early
this year) have already raced around the island track, it’s possible that
some of their know-how has also found its way into the design ...
[© overdrive.in]
...
http://www.firstpost.com/auto/video-polaris-owned-victory-motorcycles-to-go-racing-in-june-2267006.html
Video: Polaris owned Victory Motorcycles to go racing in June
http://www.firstpost.com/auto/video-polaris-owned-victory-motorcycles-to-go-racing-in-june-2267006.html
For EVLN posts use:
http://evdl.org/evln/
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Re: [EVDL] Success!
In a phone conversation, Dr. Dahn told me that LFP starts deteriorating a 104°F when fully charged. You can simply not charge fully. Exactly how not fully? I don't know. Also there may be differences depending on the form factor, source of the electrode, electrolyte compositions, and so on. No rules of thumb here, but you may want to prudently reduce the charge cutoff voltage. The difference between 3.4V and 3.7 could be huge in terms of cell life, particularly if the pack gets hot when charged. This is complicated by the general rule not to ever, ever charge Li ion cells in your residence. Mike On Mon, Jun 1, 2015 at 10:40 AM, tomw via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: My garage is a steel building with no insulation. In summer it typically is 10 to 15 F warmer than outside temperature. You can feel the IR radiation from the walls and roof, like being in an oven, and the metal is hot to the touch. In June through August it is typically 100 to 118 F inside. My ev has been garaged there for 5 1/2 years, 40k+ miles. I live in high desert where the nights are typically 35 F lower than daytime highs, so the highest temperature the battery reaches just sitting in the garage is significantly below the daytime high temperature in the garage since the cells have significant heat capacity and are in insulated boxes. The pack has been up to 110 to 115 F a number of times in the hot months after longer drives. Seems to just keep going. Each year I do a test drive to discharge the pack to about 28% SoC, then floor the accelerator to draw 3C from the pack and see if the LVC alarm on the minibms triggers. So far it has not. Range likely has decreased a bit, but this test indicates it has not decreased all that much. My cells are LiFePO4, different than the Leaf, but according to Dahn worse with regard to temperature effects, so I don't think you need be too concerned. On the hottest days I sometimes park the car in the shade of a tree rather than leave it in the garage. Winter brings the opposite problem, but I have Farnum heaters under aluminum sheet that the batteries sit on and 1/2 insulation in the boxes. Keeps them at the set point of 65 F in the winter when it is plugged in in the garage and above 50F if left parked outside for 4 - 5 hours. -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Success-tp4675905p4675945.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 585-6737 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150601/5cb534fb/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Success!
Yes, I am aware of that. For about 5 years I have been advising people not to charge to over around 3.45V which is about where the exponential increase in the curve starts at typical charge currents. I published a number of cell measurements and charge curves around that time showing there is less than 2 Ah charge between 4.45V and 3.55V on 180Ah cells, so not much gain in charge by going there unless you use a shunt balancing BMS which I do. Shunt turn-on varies from 3.48V to 3.52V over my 36 cells, so every 4 - 6 charges I charge the highest cells to 3.54 - 3.55V and check the shunt LEDs to ensure they are all on giving me peace of mind that the pack is still balanced. The rest of the time I just do partial charges. Many people only charge to less than 3.45V every charge. No one I know of charges fully. The manufacturer's spec is final CV charge at 0.05C to 3.6V which is below the maximum voltage for the cells. You also have to keep in mind that although there are significant differences in the rates of side reactions in cells of different chemistries, the rates are fairly low, so the effects accumulate slowly over years unless you significantly over charge or discharge a cell. I don't think anyone expects these prismatic cells to last 10 or more years with less than 10% capacity loss. I'll be happy if my pack still has 90% nominal capacity in 7 years, which is only 1 1/2 years away. Then I'll replace it with a wrecked Leaf 30kWh pack :^) -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Success-tp4675905p4675947.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Success!
Michael, Exactly the problem: the average cell charging voltage was 3.75V but without BMS you had no clue how high each individual cell was getting. Due to the behavior of LFP to quickly run up in voltage once the cell is full, the one cell that was the highest in the pack (a slightly lower self-discharge will do this - remember the earlier quoted available cell capacity above 3.45V of less than 2Ah which is only 1% of capacity? So, with one only 1% higher cell, its charging voltage can easily have run up to 4+ Volts. Lithium really needs per-cell monitoring and charge shutoff or you run an unknown risk... Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless office +1 408 383 7626 Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP +31 87 784 1130 private: cvandewater.info www.proxim.com This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation. If you received this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender. Any unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is prohibited. -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Michael Ross via EV Sent: Monday, June 01, 2015 12:27 PM To: tomw; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Success! No one I know of charges fully. The eBike and light EV crowd are not so fortunate. (The area I am most concerned with.) They typically buy no name packs with, BMS of unknown function and provenance, and chargers with all the stickers removed and unknown internal tweaks. My first off the reservation pack, would probably have been a nice unit were it not for the charger which poured it on a 60V for 16 cell series of LFPs. I couldn't tell you what exactly it did, but I would plug it in with the vehicle sitting in the hot sun and let it charge until finally I thought about it. Potentially running the average cell voltage to 3.75V. Admittedly, with the charger removed the resting voltage was, 56V == 3.5 / cell. I have to think that the charger running at 60V was bad just the same, creating the conditions for activation of the electrolyte damage. Net result, pack did not last very long. On Mon, Jun 1, 2015 at 1:46 PM, tomw via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Yes, I am aware of that. For about 5 years I have been advising people not to charge to over around 3.45V which is about where the exponential increase in the curve starts at typical charge currents. I published a number of cell measurements and charge curves around that time showing there is less than 2 Ah charge between 4.45V and 3.55V on 180Ah cells, so not much gain in charge by going there unless you use a shunt balancing BMS which I do. Shunt turn-on varies from 3.48V to 3.52V over my 36 cells, so every 4 - 6 charges I charge the highest cells to 3.54 - 3.55V and check the shunt LEDs to ensure they are all on giving me peace of mind that the pack is still balanced. The rest of the time I just do partial charges. Many people only charge to less than 3.45V every charge. No one I know of charges fully. The manufacturer's spec is final CV charge at 0.05C to 3.6V which is below the maximum voltage for the cells. You also have to keep in mind that although there are significant differences in the rates of side reactions in cells of different chemistries, the rates are fairly low, so the effects accumulate slowly over years unless you significantly over charge or discharge a cell. I don't think anyone expects these prismatic cells to last 10 or more years with less than 10% capacity loss. I'll be happy if my pack still has 90% nominal capacity in 7 years, which is only 1 1/2 years away. Then I'll replace it with a wrecked Leaf 30kWh pack :^) -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Success-t p4675905p4675947.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 585-6737 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150601/a728353c/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev
Re: [EVDL] Success!
No one I know of charges fully. The eBike and light EV crowd are not so fortunate. (The area I am most concerned with.) They typically buy no name packs with, BMS of unknown function and provenance, and chargers with all the stickers removed and unknown internal tweaks. My first off the reservation pack, would probably have been a nice unit were it not for the charger which poured it on a 60V for 16 cell series of LFPs. I couldn't tell you what exactly it did, but I would plug it in with the vehicle sitting in the hot sun and let it charge until finally I thought about it. Potentially running the average cell voltage to 3.75V. Admittedly, with the charger removed the resting voltage was, 56V == 3.5 / cell. I have to think that the charger running at 60V was bad just the same, creating the conditions for activation of the electrolyte damage. Net result, pack did not last very long. On Mon, Jun 1, 2015 at 1:46 PM, tomw via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Yes, I am aware of that. For about 5 years I have been advising people not to charge to over around 3.45V which is about where the exponential increase in the curve starts at typical charge currents. I published a number of cell measurements and charge curves around that time showing there is less than 2 Ah charge between 4.45V and 3.55V on 180Ah cells, so not much gain in charge by going there unless you use a shunt balancing BMS which I do. Shunt turn-on varies from 3.48V to 3.52V over my 36 cells, so every 4 - 6 charges I charge the highest cells to 3.54 - 3.55V and check the shunt LEDs to ensure they are all on giving me peace of mind that the pack is still balanced. The rest of the time I just do partial charges. Many people only charge to less than 3.45V every charge. No one I know of charges fully. The manufacturer's spec is final CV charge at 0.05C to 3.6V which is below the maximum voltage for the cells. You also have to keep in mind that although there are significant differences in the rates of side reactions in cells of different chemistries, the rates are fairly low, so the effects accumulate slowly over years unless you significantly over charge or discharge a cell. I don't think anyone expects these prismatic cells to last 10 or more years with less than 10% capacity loss. I'll be happy if my pack still has 90% nominal capacity in 7 years, which is only 1 1/2 years away. Then I'll replace it with a wrecked Leaf 30kWh pack :^) -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Success-tp4675905p4675947.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 585-6737 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150601/a728353c/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Success!
Cell phones always have a single cell as battery and work off of the ~ 3.7V directly via DC/DC buck converters and charges off of a 5V USB connection. I can't vouch for the Mi-fi. More problematic would be the now common application of Li batteries in tools such as drills and saws, in cordless personal care products; in most internet connected devices (not only my laptops have a Li cell, but also any *-pads, kindle and the sorts. Even my internet modem has a backup battery! I don't charge my car in the livingroom, but the attached garage is just a layer of sheetrock removed from the living room... In there are a large number of CALB 180Ah cells... Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless office +1 408 383 7626 Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP +31 87 784 1130 private: cvandewater.info www.proxim.com This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation. If you received this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender. Any unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is prohibited. -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of EVDL Administrator via EV Sent: Monday, June 01, 2015 7:47 PM To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Success! On 1 Jun 2015 at 12:05, Michael Ross via EV wrote: This is complicated by the general rule not to ever, ever charge Li ion cells in your residence. Good grief, why not? In our house we regularly charge 3 portable computers, 2 mobile phones, a mi-fi router, and a e-scooter. Every one of them has a lithium ion battery. The computers and scooter have cell level BMSes. I don't know about the phones and mi-fi, but I doubt that they have cell-level control, and their chargers are powerful enough to charge them in 2-3 hours. No disasters yet! David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] 5 k pot wiring? controller wiring? mis match
Ken, do you have a multimeter? No, buy one for a few bucks, put it on resistance measurement and probe the 3 wires, If this is indeed a 5k pot then there will likely be 2 pairs of wires that read about 5k (for example blue-black and green-black) and between the two pairs (blue to green) it will likely read a low resistance. Now depress the throttle and read again. There will be one pair that is still 5k (for example blue-black) and one pair that has dropped in resistance (for example 1k from green-black) while the resistance between the pairs has increased (for example 4k between blue-green) The pair that is always 5k are the ends of the pot and represent the black and red from the controller. The wire that has changed resistance to both others is the wiper (white on the controller). Just connect it and if the throttle does not ramp the controller up but starts at max and ramps down, then you must swap the ends (black and red). Success! Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless office +1 408 383 7626 Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP +31 87 784 1130 private: cvandewater.info www.proxim.com This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation. If you received this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender. Any unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is prohibited. -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of ken via EV Sent: Monday, June 01, 2015 6:50 PM To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: [EVDL] 5 k pot wiring? controller wiring? mis match I have a very simple controller i'm using on my scooter. throttle cable it shows Blue, green, black _ Controller manaual says Red WhiteBlack 5V 1-4.5V0V SO WHICH GOES TO WHICH? Is the white the wiper? I thinks its 5 k pot? does the a hall affect show resitance across its leads. I'll have the back wheel off the ground for testing. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Success!
Cor van de Water via EV wrote: I don't charge my car in the living room, but the attached garage is just a layer of sheetrock removed from the living room... In there are a large number of CALB 180Ah cells... Our ICEs all have tens of gallons of highly flammable gasoline in them. This sits in a wooden garage, often attached to a home, with little more than a sheet of drywall between them. Yes, there are house fires caused by a car in the garage catching fire. They are rare, thanks to considerable effort on the part of the automakers to prevent that gasoline from accidentally catching fire. Presumably, EV manufacturers also consider the consequences of some design error or component failure starting a fire in their lithium battery pack. They then include safety precautions to make this impossible, or at least extremely unlikely. (If they don't, they're leaving themselves wide open for a lawsuit if anything goes wrong!) I think the risk comes from hobby DIY types that either don't know the risk, or choose not to do anything about it. There are bound to be idiots that store gasoline in an open-topped bucket in the garage, and somehow haven't blown themselves up. Or that didn't bother to install circuit breakers in their electrical wiring, and haven't set the wiring on fire yet. (What could possibly go wrong?) The same type of idiot could also wire up a bunch of lithium cells, and use a dumb charger on them. It would work fine, until the day that something goes wrong. Then he'd have a lovely roaring fire. This doesn't mean you shouldn't charge lithium batteries inside. It just means that if you do, you'd better know what you're doing, and do it RIGHT! -- The greatest pleasure in life is to create something that wasn't there before. -- Roy Spence -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
[EVDL] 5 k pot wiring? controller wiring? mis match
I have a very simple controller i'm using on my scooter. throttle cable it shows Blue, green, black _ Controller manaual says Red WhiteBlack 5V 1-4.5V0V SO WHICH GOES TO WHICH? Is the white the wiper? I thinks its 5 k pot? does the a hall affect show resitance across its leads. I'll have the back wheel off the ground for testing. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Success!
I wasn't speaking of smaller cells like phones. I guess the PC have been sorted out. I was thinking specifically of EV packs that are home built or otherwise DIY'd. If there is a malfunction you may burn it down. I am sure some other folks will chime in. I am looking at the book Battery Management Systems by Davide Andrea who makes a strong point about this. There is a cart full of LFP melted down on a cart just outside his lab exit in an early chapter. I won't do it. Good luck to you. On Mon, Jun 1, 2015 at 10:47 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On 1 Jun 2015 at 12:05, Michael Ross via EV wrote: This is complicated by the general rule not to ever, ever charge Li ion cells in your residence. Good grief, why not? In our house we regularly charge 3 portable computers, 2 mobile phones, a mi-fi router, and a e-scooter. Every one of them has a lithium ion battery. The computers and scooter have cell level BMSes. I don't know about the phones and mi-fi, but I doubt that they have cell-level control, and their chargers are powerful enough to charge them in 2-3 hours. No disasters yet! David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 585-6737 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150601/e03a5ac2/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] 5 k pot wiring? controller wiring? mis match
You are making us guess with less than you have. Can you tell what scooter and controller - maybe a link online? On Mon, Jun 1, 2015 at 9:49 PM, ken via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: I have a very simple controller i'm using on my scooter. throttle cable it shows Blue, green, black _ Controller manaual says Red WhiteBlack 5V 1-4.5V0V There is a convention in the US that Red is the supply, Black is the reference or common voltage, and white is a signal wire. You don't tell us it is an input to the controller but that is a decent guess. If correct, then the controller is expecting a signal between 1 and 4.5V. SO WHICH GOES TO WHICH? There is nothing definitive about any of this: http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_5/chpt_2/2.html I would guess the green is less likely to be supply or ground, and black and blue more likely. But who knows? Is the white the wiper? The controller is looking for voltage, not resistance, according to what you shared; but maybe you can work it out with a 5V supply what resistances would produce 1 to 4.5V and see if that makes sense with what you can read from the throttle. I thinks its 5 k pot? Why do you think that? What is it exactly? does the a hall affect show resistance across its leads. A hall effect element produces a variable voltage based on the magnetic flux density passing perpendicularly through it. A Hall Effect IC might do any number of things, and any voltage or resistance you read dependent on the internal circuitry - a mystery most likely. A Hall IC would require power and ground, and the signal would be a voltage output - not resistance. I Hall effect sensor could also be set up to produce a 4 to 20mA current. Or any number of other things. Non-specific pronouns and nouns are so unhelpful. You have presented the throttle as being either a pot or not a pot. If it is a pot, then it will be very obvious. If it is not obvious, it is broken or some other device. I'll have the back wheel off the ground for testing. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 585-6737 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150601/c44c9acb/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Success!
On 1 Jun 2015 at 12:05, Michael Ross via EV wrote: This is complicated by the general rule not to ever, ever charge Li ion cells in your residence. Good grief, why not? In our house we regularly charge 3 portable computers, 2 mobile phones, a mi-fi router, and a e-scooter. Every one of them has a lithium ion battery. The computers and scooter have cell level BMSes. I don't know about the phones and mi-fi, but I doubt that they have cell-level control, and their chargers are powerful enough to charge them in 2-3 hours. No disasters yet! David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Success!
When I first started reading this list a grief stricken person told a tale of sprrow having burned his home down, killing his dog within. I was at that time charging my 48V - 10Ah and 20Ah packs in the bedroom. More than enough to make cinders of a nice place to live. I am happy not to do that anymore. My garage is not attached to the house. On Mon, Jun 1, 2015 at 11:04 PM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Cell phones always have a single cell as battery and work off of the ~ 3.7V directly via DC/DC buck converters and charges off of a 5V USB connection. I can't vouch for the Mi-fi. More problematic would be the now common application of Li batteries in tools such as drills and saws, in cordless personal care products; in most internet connected devices (not only my laptops have a Li cell, but also any *-pads, kindle and the sorts. Even my internet modem has a backup battery! I don't charge my car in the livingroom, but the attached garage is just a layer of sheetrock removed from the living room... In there are a large number of CALB 180Ah cells... Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless office +1 408 383 7626 Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP +31 87 784 1130 private: cvandewater.info www.proxim.com This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation. If you received this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender. Any unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is prohibited. -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of EVDL Administrator via EV Sent: Monday, June 01, 2015 7:47 PM To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Success! On 1 Jun 2015 at 12:05, Michael Ross via EV wrote: This is complicated by the general rule not to ever, ever charge Li ion cells in your residence. Good grief, why not? In our house we regularly charge 3 portable computers, 2 mobile phones, a mi-fi router, and a e-scooter. Every one of them has a lithium ion battery. The computers and scooter have cell level BMSes. I don't know about the phones and mi-fi, but I doubt that they have cell-level control, and their chargers are powerful enough to charge them in 2-3 hours. No disasters yet! David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 585-6737 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150601/db13ec66/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
