[EVDL] Scrapped Tesla found in 'cause-unknown' junkyard-fire

[brucedp5 via EV]

https://electrek.co/2018/09/10/tesla-vehicle-fire-junkyard/
Tesla vehicle was found in a junkyard fire, cause unknown
Sep. 10th 2018  Fred Lambert

[images  
https://i1.wp.com/electrek.co/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2018/09/Screen-Shot-2018-09-10-at-2.16.13-PM-e1536604755376.jpg

https://electrek.co/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2018/09/download-38.jpeg

https://electrek.co/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2018/09/download-39.jpeg

https://electrek.co/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2018/09/download-40.jpeg


share
https://twitter.com/AlamedaCoFire
Alameda County Fire @AlamedaCoFire
Thanks to our partnership w/ the @acsosheriffs UAV (Drone) Team, here’s an
aerial view of the 1-alarm fire at ALCO Metals in the area of Doolittle Dr.
& Davis St. in #SanLeandro on Friday, 9/7. No reports of injuries. The cause
of the fire is unknown.
10:59 PM - Sep 7, 2018 · Alco Metals
]

The Alameda County Fire Department responded to a fire on a pile of debris
at a San Leandro [CA] junkyard last Friday.

Strangely, they found a Tesla vehicle burning in the pile of junk metal and
they are investigating if it is the source.

The fire happened at ALCO Metals, a metal junkyard near the intersection of
Davis Street and Doolittle in San Leandro, Californian on the eastern shore
of San Francisco Bay.

On Friday, the Alameda County Fire Department saw smoke coming out of the
location.

The scope of the fire was unclear.

They used a drone from the sheriffs department to get a better idea of the
situation:

The fire was controlled and no injuries were reported.

Firehouse reports that they found a Tesla in the fire and they are
investigating if it is the source:

“Firefighters are investigating whether a Tesla vehicle found in the
middle of a pile of burning debris caused a San Leandro metal yard to engulf
in flames Friday afternoon.”

The Alameda County Fire Department released a bunch of images of their
operations:

Electrek’s Take

It’s unclear what the Tesla vehicle was doing there, but vehicles often end
up in metal junkyard if they can’t be salvaged, which would be the most
likely explanation.

I’ve previously complained that the NTSB seems to be unfairly targeting
Tesla when it comes to its car fire investigations, but if the Tesla vehicle
was indeed the cause of the fire in this case, I think it’s clear that we
need some new process to take care of totaled Tesla vehicles or electric
vehicles in general.

It wouldn’t be the first time that a Tesla vehicle involved in an accident
caught on fire after the fact.

A Tesla battery pack of a Model X involved in the fatal accident in Mountain
View earlier this year reignited days after catching on fire in the crash.

The NTSB appears to be working with Tesla and first responders to see how to
best handle a vehicle that has been damaged like that.

Tesla recommends using “large amounts of water” to extinguish a battery fire
in its vehicles and to use a thermal imaging camera to monitor the battery
after it is found to be completely cooled:

“If the high voltage battery catches fire, is exposed to high heat, or
is bent, twisted, cracked, or breached in any way, use large amounts of
water to cool the battery. DO NOT extinguish with a small amount of water.
Always establish or request an additional water supply.”

It looks like we might need a new process or more awareness on how to handle
electric vehicles being discarded.
[© electrek.co]


http://www.automotivetestdrivers.com/tesla-vehicle-fire-junkyard/
Tesla vehicle was found in a junkyard fire, cause unknown
September 10, 2018 - The Alameda County Fire Department responded to a fire
on a pile of debris at a San Leandro junkyard last Friday. Strangely, they
found a ...
...
https://www.facebook.com/electrekco/posts/2219042418328400
...
https://www.google.com/search?q=Tesla+junkyard-fire




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 http://evdl.org/archive/


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Re: [EVDL] Large Format Cells vs. Small Format Cells for EVs

[George Tyler via EV]

Also worked on SONAR, really interesting stuff. Had a 1,8m high bay full of
processors, detecting ship's propeller noise. Each one had the sound of a
known ship's prop stored in ROM and did a correlation to find which ship it
was. Also did some work on the fire control for the torpedo's. those had a
speed of 24 knots, while the Russian nuclear sub had been clocked at 50, so
the subs could do circles around the torpedos. 
The other thing about Batteries. And big manufacturer now does HALT
testing highly accelerated life testing) to prove the life of components, it
is all proven science, you can prove a lifetime of 10 years in a test taking
3 months. 


-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Jan Steinman via EV
Sent: 10 September, 2018 4:47 PM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: Jan Steinman
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Large Format Cells vs. Small Format Cells for EVs

> From: George Tyler 
> 
> I used to design electronics for 
> military, (submarines) you can make MTBF say whatever you want!

Yea, so true. The Navy got so frustrated that they abandoned static analysis
for real-time testing.

I worked on linear beam forming for subs. We used card-edge scan testing
during retrace time, when the virtual beam was essentially scanning back
through the hull. Each bus interface unit had a Motorola 68000 on it, just
to control the testing, 60 times a second.

Jan

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[EVDL] EVLN: EV-newswire posts for 20180908

[brucedp5 via EV]

http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-VW-Audi-de-95kWh-e-tron-SUV-production-9-2018-r-400km-tp4691127.html
EVLN: VW/Audi.de 95kWh e-tron SUV production 9/2018 r:~400km
Audi starts mass production of its first all-electric SUV
Sep 3, 2018  Audi began production of its first all-electric SUV on Monday,
three years after the German automaker unveiled a concept version of the
vehicle at ... Frankfurt ...
https://techcrunch.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/audi-e-tron.jpg


http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Taycan-MissionE-EV-sporting-on-mountain-roads-v-tp4691128.html
EVLN: Taycan(MissionE) EV sporting on mountain roads (v)
Watch the Porsche Taycan electric concept on mountain roads in new DJI Mavic
2 drone footage
There are a lot of exciting things about Porsche's first all-electric
vehicles – mainly the deployment of the first 800-volt battery and charging
system ...
https://youtu.be/s0qPwOBKOAo


+
https://chargedevs.com/newswire/orange-ev-and-firefly-partner-to-deploy-electric-yard-goats/
Orange EV and Firefly partner to deploy electric yard goats
20180827  Orange EV and Firefly Transportation Services have announced the
deployment of Orange EV T-Series electric terminal trucks ...


https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/zeem-solutions-orders-50-lightning-systems-zero-emission-class-6-powertrains-300701541.html
Zeem Solutions Orders 50 Lightning Systems Zero-Emission Class 6 Powertrains
20180823  Zeem Solutions, based in New York, is a commercial electric
vehicle (CEV) service provider for small, medium and large fleet ...


http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/stoopid-VW-s-e-america-is-squandering-EVSE-scandal-fund-tp4690034p4691093.html
VW "JetStones" campaign ads actually come from a dark place (v)
New ads for electric cars born from car emissions scandal
Aug 24, 2018  New ads for electric cars born from car emissions scandal ...
the ad is at the very end, when an electric Golf appears with EV's from
several other manufacturers ...
https://youtu.be/KRgcJusf280




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 http://evdl.org/archive/


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[EVDL] EVLN: Taycan(MissionE) EV sporting on mountain roads (v)

[brucedp5 via EV]

https://electrek.co/2018/09/03/porsche-taycan-electric-concept-new-dji-mavic-2-drone-footage/
Watch the Porsche Taycan electric concept on mountain roads in new DJI Mavic
2 drone footage
Sep. 3rd 2018  Fred Lambert

[image  
https://i0.wp.com/electrek.co/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2018/09/Screen-Shot-2018-09-03-at-2.31.02-PM.jpg


video
https://youtu.be/s0qPwOBKOAo
DJI – Mavic 2 – Grossglockner ()
]

In a solid cross-promotional effort, DJI released some beautiful new drone
footage of the Porsche Taycan electric concept driving on mountain roads
filmed with their new DJI Mavic 2.

There are a lot of exciting things about Porsche’s first all-electric
vehicles – mainly the deployment of the first 800-volt battery and charging
system in a passenger car.

But the car’s design itself might actually end up being its biggest selling
point if it looks anything close to the Mission E concept on which it is
based on.

The vehicle, which was first unveiled back in 2015, already won several
awards for its design years before its production launch and it is clear why
in this new footage of the vehicle driving on the tallest mountain in
Austria:

DJI recently launched its next-generation Mavic 2 drones (the $1,250 DJI
Mavic 2 Zoom and the $1,450 DJI Mavic 2 Pro). To learn more about drones,
you can visit our sister site DroneDJ.com.

It looks like DJI got rare access to the Porsche Taycan prototype to use as
the subject from some promotional footage filmed with their new drones.

The production Porsche Taycan is not expected to be released until the end
of next year, but Porsche has been nonetheless ramping up its marketing
effort over the last year.

The German automaker has released several new promotional images and
footage, as well as interviews with the people behind the vehicle.
[© electrek.co]


[dated]
https://www.motor1.com/news/246932/porsche-taycan-soul-promo-video/
Porsche Finally Tells Us How To Say Taycan
Jun 13, 2018 - The Porsche Taycan is the name of Porsche's production
version of the ... a big marketing opportunity because going with a
pronunciation like ...
https://youtu.be/x4xJ-4piQxI


+
https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/zeem-solutions-orders-50-lightning-systems-zero-emission-class-6-powertrains-300701541.html
Zeem Solutions Orders 50 Lightning Systems Zero-Emission Class 6 Powertrains
20180823  Zeem Solutions, based in New York, is a commercial electric
vehicle (CEV) service provider for small, medium and large fleet ...




For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
 http://evdl.org/archive/


{brucedp.neocities.org}

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[EVDL] EVLN: VW/Audi.de 95kWh e-tron SUV production 9/2018 r:~400km

[brucedp5 via EV]

https://techcrunch.com/2018/09/03/audi-starts-mass-production-of-its-first-all-electric-suv/
Audi starts mass production of its first all-electric SUV
Sep 3, 2018  Kirsten Korosec

[image  / Audi AG
https://techcrunch.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/audi-e-tron.jpg
The Audi e-tron prototype in Copenhagen
]

Audi began production of its first all-electric SUV on Monday, three years
after the German automaker unveiled a concept version of the vehicle at the
International Motor Show in Frankfurt.

The company won’t reveal the production-version of the Audi e-tron SUV until
Sept. 17, in a what promises to be a splashy event in San Francisco.

Audi, which is owned by Volkswagen Group, has been working towards mass
production of the e-tron quattro for years now, offering periodic updates
and teasers on the pricing, range, and interior design. The Audi e-tron is
being produced at Audi’s factory in Brussels, which has been undergoing an
extensive renovation since 2016 to prepare for the new vehicle. The Brussels
factor has become the cornerstone of Volkswagen Group’s electric vehicle
plans.

Audi rebuilt the body shop, paint shop and assembly line at the Brussels
factory, the company said. It also set up its own battery production there.

The five-seater SUV will have DC fast-charging capability of up 150
kilowatts. The company has previously said the SUV would have a 95 kwh
battery with a range of more than 500 kilometers (about 310 miles). That
range has since been adjusted to somewhere around 250 miles, although the
global reveal later this month should provide finalized numbers. Sales of
the e-tron SUV are expected to begin by the end of the year.

The Audi e-tron is the first in what the company says will be a new line of
all-electric vehicles. By 2020, Audi plans to also produce a four-door Gran
Turismo (the production version of the Audi e-tron Sportback concept) and a
compact vehicle. The company has outlined plans to launch more than 20
electric vehicles and plug-in hybrids by 2025.
[© techcrunch.com]


https://www.carscoops.com/2018/09/audi-begins-production-electric-e-tron-ahead-september-17-debut/
Audi Begins Production Of The Electric E-Tron Ahead Of September 17 Debut
Audi’s first take on a mass-produced, battery-electric vehicle aims to offer
shorter charging times, claiming that 30 minutes ... (PHOTO GALLERY)
https://images.carscoops.com/2018/09/c269643f-audi-etron-production-05.jpg


https://electrek.co/2018/09/03/audi-e-tron-quattro-all-electric-suv-production-start/
Audi starts e-tron quattro all-electric SUV production today
Sep 3, 2018 ... today that it started production of its e-tron quattro
all-electric SUV at its ... This is the world's first certified CO2-neutral
mass production in the ...
https://i0.wp.com/electrek.co/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2018/09/A1810608_medium-e1535967843448.jpg?resize=1500%2C0=82=all=1


https://electriccarsreport.com/2018/09/audi-e-tron-electric-suv-enters-production-ahead-of-september-17-reveal/
Audi e-tron electric SUV enters production ahead of September 17 reveal
Audi will present the unveiled electric car for the first time at its world
premiere in San Francisco on September 17. Misano ...


+
https://chargedevs.com/newswire/orange-ev-and-firefly-partner-to-deploy-electric-yard-goats/
Orange EV and Firefly partner to deploy electric yard goats
20180827  Orange EV and Firefly Transportation Services have announced the
deployment of Orange EV T-Series electric terminal trucks ...




For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
 http://evdl.org/archive/


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[EVDL] Recycling: used LiOn CALB batteries

[brucedp5 via EV]

>find a way to dispose/donate/sell them<

https://www.batteryrecyclersofamerica.com/contact/

https://www.google.com/search?q=lithium+ion+batteries+recycle


% Yes, Virginia (or in this case, MarkA), li-ion batteries are recycled %




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Re: [EVDL] Large vs. Small Format Cells for EVs

[Paul Dove via EV]

Where do you live I already drive a model three. It has different cells than 
the model s

Sent from my iPad

> On Sep 9, 2018, at 8:04 PM, mark hanson via EV  wrote:
> 
> Hi Willie etc,
> 
> 
> 
> It's hard to find actual published Tesla battery failure numbers since Tesla
> sends internal field service guys "Tesla Rangers" out to your house to
> replace any bad cells that the car radios help for. When I was at a EV race
> about 5 years ago, I asked three Tesla owners if they had any Tesla Rangers
> come out to their homes in the past year for battery issues.  All three
> raised their hands.  While this business model of impeccable field service
> may work for high priced vehicles/wealthy customers, I don't see how it can
> be *sustained* for lower priced Model-3's (set to come out next year).
> 
> 
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> Mark in Roanoke VA
> 
> 
> 
> Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2018 06:24:04 -0500
> 
> From: Willie 
> 
> 
> 
>> On 09/08/2018 09:38 PM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
>> 
>> Well, does anyone have actual numbers regarding failures of Teslas? 
> 
>> Overall, they've been out long enough that "we" should know if there are 
> 
>> reliability problems or not. On my part, I have not heard of any 
> 
>> widespread Tesla failure. What reliability problems is C.S. referring to?
> 
> 
> 
> Anecdotal, but I know of quite of few Ss that have had their batteries 
> 
> replaced/repaired in warranty.  On my ~130k mile 2013 S, the battery was 
> 
> recently changed.  There was no real obvious issue but the Tesla service 
> 
> people said it should be changed.  Range was still above 90% of original 
> 
> and I had not complained of range loss; I considered the loss 
> 
> reasonable.  I would guess 30-50% of Tesla with more than 100k miles 
> 
> have had their batteries replaced.  Probably all under warranty; I have 
> 
> heard of no one who had to buy a battery.  Fact is, cost of replacement 
> 
> in generally unknown.  It seems Tesla is not replacing with new 
> 
> batteries.  In some cases they install a loaner battery while the faulty 
> 
> battery is being refurbished.  In other cases they replace with a 
> 
> refurbished battery.   I assume the refurbishment involves replacing a 
> 
> smallish number of bad cells.
> 
> 
> 
> Much in contrast to Nissan, the battery replacements are painless; as 
> 
> mentioned, I did not even know I had a battery problem but Tesla was 
> 
> eager to make it right.  Nissan refuses to replace obviously bad batteries.
> 
> 
> 
> -- next part --
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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> 
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Re: [EVDL] What to do with used LiOn CALB batteries?

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

I don’t know.

Perhaps it’s possible to partially recycle, or maybe it’s not 
economical.


I’ve only read about or asked the broader question. Not the why.

But my understanding is that they can’t be recycled - yet. Given the 
huge numbers of battery waste that I expect to be generated in the 
future, I’m sure that we’ll get a solution in the not-to-distant future. 
But that doesn’t help the OP.


---
- Mark

On 2018-09-10 04:13, Paul Dove wrote:

I don’t see why not. Cut them open separate the copper foil from the
aluminum and recycle them normally. You could just leave the graphene
and lithium slurry on there.

Sent from my iPad

On Sep 9, 2018, at 4:16 PM, Mark Abramowitz via EV  
wrote:


I agree with Marco.

To my knowledge, squeezing out the rest of the life through energy 
storage is really the only next useful stage for these batteries. The 
y cannot be recycled.


Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 9, 2018, at 6:09 AM, Barry Oppenheim via EV 
 wrote:


I recently took my Saturn Vue EV out of service and have 48 LiOn 
cells in

my garage.  I am trying to find a way to *dispose/donate/sell them*.

Does anyone know if *regular metal/battery recyclers* take them?  I 
did try
to give them to someone but the cross country shipping logistics were 
a

nightmare. I live halfway between Philly and NYC.

If I decide to keep them does anyone see any problems or *safety 
issues*
having them sit in a heated garage, partially to mostly discharged, 
for a

couple years?

Cell details
48 Calb 180Ah cells (they have not been charged for at least two 
years)
The cells were put into service in 2011 and have ~3 miles on 
them.  I

estimate ~500-600 partial charge/discharge cycles.
www.justanotherevconversion.blogspot.com

Thanks,

Barry
-- next part --
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Re: [EVDL] What to do with used LiOn CALB batteries?

[Paul Dove via EV]

I don’t see why not. Cut them open separate the copper foil from the aluminum 
and recycle them normally. You could just leave the graphene and lithium slurry 
on there.

Sent from my iPad

> On Sep 9, 2018, at 4:16 PM, Mark Abramowitz via EV  wrote:
> 
> I agree with Marco.
> 
> To my knowledge, squeezing out the rest of the life through energy storage is 
> really the only next useful stage for these batteries. The y cannot be 
> recycled.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Sep 9, 2018, at 6:09 AM, Barry Oppenheim via EV  wrote:
>> 
>> I recently took my Saturn Vue EV out of service and have 48 LiOn cells in
>> my garage.  I am trying to find a way to *dispose/donate/sell them*.
>> 
>> Does anyone know if *regular metal/battery recyclers* take them?  I did try
>> to give them to someone but the cross country shipping logistics were a
>> nightmare. I live halfway between Philly and NYC.
>> 
>> If I decide to keep them does anyone see any problems or *safety issues*
>> having them sit in a heated garage, partially to mostly discharged, for a
>> couple years?
>> 
>> Cell details
>> 48 Calb 180Ah cells (they have not been charged for at least two years)
>> The cells were put into service in 2011 and have ~3 miles on them.  I
>> estimate ~500-600 partial charge/discharge cycles.
>> www.justanotherevconversion.blogspot.com
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> 
>> Barry
>> -- next part --
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> URL: 
>> 
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Re: [EVDL] Large Format Cells vs. Small Format Cells for EVs

[Jukka Järvinen via EV]

Unknown future problems? What are you referring to? This is well documented
failure mode. That is the very reason of having the fuse there. :) It is
not due manufacturing defect.

Empirical evidence is empirical. One has to see it with own eyes. It does
not mean it is in public domain. Most important to make it scientific and
useful is to have all well documented and verified with proven evidence.
This is what Tesla is doing by not telling openly what is their empirical
evidence on the drive battery failure modes. It's their way to keep ahead
of the competition. Just like what I have been doing for the past ~20 years
in this field of business. I use the knowledge to improve my products and
innovations to create more innovations and make sure we survive the climate
change (while it all started with deep love to EV and technology 25 years
ago).

15 years of operational lifetime has been now proven with LiFePO4-Graphite.
Adding the new innovations on that base track record is basis on my claim
we are going to witness even better results. This is why I *see* this as a
*possible* outcome. 500Wh/kg can be achieved in printed thin film cells
which have been plagued with certain issues regarding certain things. Vague
enough? :D

-Jukka


su 9. syysk. 2018 klo 21.19 Jan Steinman via EV (ev@lists.evdl.org)
kirjoitti:

> > From: Jukka J?rvinen 
> >
> > The main question is when will the problems be there? After 200.000 or
> > 500.000 miles?... we have just now
> > mastered the solid state electrolyte and synthetic Graphene production. I
> > see now 500Wh/kg, >15 year lifetime
>
> I see someone arguing both sides of a fallacious argument.
>
> How can you criticize one manufacturer for unknown future problems who
> uses known technology, while lauding unknown technology for a long lifetime
> that none of it has even passed through?
>
> We have all sorts of empirical evidence with small cells. MTBF behaviour
> is well characterized. But there is absolutely NO empirical evidence for
> "15 year lifetime" of "solid state electrolyte and synthetic Graphene"
> cells.
>
> Personally, I prefer nickel-iron cells. But I'm an outlier. :-)
>
> Jan
>
>
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> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Large Format Cells vs. Small Format Cells for EVs

[Jukka Järvinen via EV]

You're absolutely right. Tesla has hired plenty of talent and they are
driving the cost down with vehicle designs. That said they cannot compete
in ESS with their existing design. They have now a chance as the grid side
compensations are pretty high and investments are paid back in about one
year. This is changing and the competition will be hard. The ESS business
is 100-fold compared to vehicles in next 20 years. The deployment rates are
very different as people have used to buy energy as a service but not yet
vehicle as a service. We do have the same issues with Utilities which are
comparable to OEM ICE. So this actually boils down to business models. Not
only superior technology. -Jukka



ma 10. syysk. 2018 klo 11.24 Michael Ross via EV (ev@lists.evdl.org)
kirjoitti:

> I believe Tesla has the best resources for developing batteries and
> manufacturing them.  They hired all the pertinent electrochemists at least.
> They have made themselves the subject matter experts, bar none.
>
> Also it is probable that for a while, new batteries designs will be
> manufactured in a similar manner, and Tesla will incur less capital outlay
> to retool than any new entries.
>
> Anyone with a better design would be smart to prove it to Tesla and get on
> board with them.  So far as we know, no one has demonstrated the efficacy
> of an any substantially new designs to them.
>
> An interesting point is that Tesla is not a typical for profit company.
> Musk at least will be happy to simply create a demand, and even
> competition.  The more successful the better. I have always kept this in
> mind when investing with them.  I actually think the battery business is
> more valuable than the car business.
>
> On Sun, Sep 9, 2018 at 10:14 PM robert winfield via EV 
> wrote:
>
> >  in 2018, so far Tesla has used 7,103,326 Kilowatt hours of batteries,
> 77%
> > of all the batteries used in EV's (less China) of the 9,279,755 total
> > It doesn't matter whether you argue prismatic or pouch or 18650 or
> > 2170. Tesla is outselling everyone else
> >
> > On Sunday, September 9, 2018, 8:45:20 PM EDT, ROBERT via EV <
> > ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
> >
> >  The problem with Tesla's batteries is not small vs large but Tesla has
> > put all their eggs into one type of battery.  The other automotive
> > companies are staying out of the battery business so that they can buy
> the
> > best batteries available and not spend money on development.  Vertical
> > business development is not always the best model.  At present, do what
> you
> > do best and assemble a final product and buy from numerous suppliers is
> the
> > current business model for the big automotive companies.
> >
> >
> > 
> > From: EV  on behalf of Jan Steinman via EV <
> > ev@lists.evdl.org>
> > Sent: Sunday, September 9, 2018 10:02 AM
> > To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> > Cc: Jan Steinman
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] Large Format Cells vs. Small Format Cells for EVs
> >
> > > From: Jukka J?rvinen 
> > >
> > > The main question is when will the problems be there? After 200.000 or
> > > 500.000 miles?... we have just now
> > > mastered the solid state electrolyte and synthetic Graphene
> production. I
> > > see now 500Wh/kg, >15 year lifetime
> >
> > I see someone arguing both sides of a fallacious argument.
> >
> > How can you criticize one manufacturer for unknown future problems who
> > uses known technology, while lauding unknown technology for a long
> lifetime
> > that none of it has even passed through?
> >
> > We have all sorts of empirical evidence with small cells. MTBF behaviour
> > is well characterized. But there is absolutely NO empirical evidence for
> > "15 year lifetime" of "solid state electrolyte and synthetic Graphene"
> > cells.
> >
> > Personally, I prefer nickel-iron cells. But I'm an outlier. :-)
> >
> > Jan
> >
> >
> > ___
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