[EVDL] EVsOnTVs: Musk on 60 minutes Sun 12/9 | (buy idle GM plants)
Check your local channel for time.
https://www.cbsnews.com/60-minutes/
Sunday, December 9 at 7 p.m. ET/PT ... Elon Musk
... What's in a name? For Tesla, $75,000
Elon Musk tells 60 Minutes that he had to buy his car company's name—and
gives Lesley Stahl the pronunciation of "Tesla" ...
...
https://twitter.com/60Minutes
@60Minutes
https://mashable.com/article/elon-musk-marijuana-60-minutes-video-clip/#LKhCRxgIKaq9
Elon Musk tells '60 Minutes' ...
Tesla CEO Elon Musk welcomes GM competition
https://youtu.be/Lvfv_nI9Ht0
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/tesla-ceo-elon-musk-welcomes-gm-competition-60-minutes-interview/
Tesla CEO Elon Musk welcomes GM competition
2018 Dec 07 General Motors recently announced plans to double its
investment in electric vehicles and that’s just fine with Elon Musk. Sunday
at 7 p.m. ET/PT on 60 Minutes [video flash]
https://cbsnews3.cbsistatic.com/hub/i/r/2018/12/07/27fb6584-bc51-4356-b447-a138d5105703/thumbnail/1200x630/aa3aa35d013d7e9a26ccc1ca723ebb3f/muskpreview2.jpg
Tesla CEO on 60 Minutes: I don't want to 'adhere to some CEO template'
https://www.cnbc.com/video/2018/12/07/tesla-ceo-on-60-minutes-i-dont-want-to-adhere-to-some-ceo-template.html
8 hours ago
Tesla CEO on 60 Minutes: I don't want to 'adhere to some CEO template' Tesla
is upgraded to "buy" at ...
What Did Elon Musk Say in His 60 Minutes Interview on ABC ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHL5Pqmw4Qo
7 hours ago - Uploaded by E for Electric
Tesla's CEO Elon Musk gave an interview to ABC's 60 Minutes this week which
will air on Sunday but we do ...
Elon Musk says Tesla may consider buying one of GM's idled plants
https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/elon-musk-tesla-gm-plants-interview/
10 hours ago - In a new 60 Minutes interview, Musk said he welcomed GM's
competition in the EV space. ... When Elon Musk sits down with an
interviewer, something interesting is always bound to come out of the Tesla
CEO's mouth, and his forthcoming interview with 60 Minutes is no exception
...
Elon Musk Tells "60 Minutes" Tesla Willing to Buy Idle GM Plants
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-12-07/musk-to-the-rescue-as-tesla-may-consider-buying-idle-gm-plants
9 hours ago - Tesla Inc. Chief Executive Officer Elon Musk told CBS's “60
Minutes” that he may be willing to buy some of the five factories General
Motors Co ...
[dated]
Elon Musk 60 Minutes Interview - YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpCZQPAGPog
Mar 12, 2017 - Uploaded by lincoln mullan
This video belongs to CBS news and i do not own it. All the rights go to CBS
news. Want to check it out ? Here ...
VIDEO | March 30th Elon Musk Interview on 60 Minutes - SpaceNews ...
https://spacenews.com/video-march-30th-elon-musk-interview-on-60-minutes/
Mar 31, 2014 SpaceX and Tesla CEO Elon Musk discussess the loan from the
U.S. government that helped out Tesla during ...
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Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance
On 7 Dec 2018 at 16:58, Steve Heath via EV wrote: > The car is here: http://www.evalbum.com/5368 Impressive! Even more so when you consider the low cost of conversion. Well done. You're absolutely right about the dismaying bloat of modern cars. For EV conversions, a light glider is the secret to good range and performance without a high conversion cost. In the early 1970s I owned a 1965 Opel Kadett Coupe. It would have almost certainly made for a successful conversion, though I didn't consider it then. It was dirt-simple: manual brakes and steering, roll-up windows, heating and ventilation controlled by plain mechanical linkages. The wiring diagram took up just 2 pages in the shop manual. No computers, of course. All up weight was under 1500lb (670kg) with a GWVR of almost 2300lb. Best of all, it had a nice big square trunk. Pushing the GWVR a bit, I could probably have put 800lb of lead in there and under the hood. I expect that 12 golf car batteries (72 volts) would have given me a solid 40+mi of range. With modern batteries, much more. https://postimg.cc/dZ01vRf5 https://postimg.cc/bs35sxBQ A somewhat more recent light car for EV conversion is the mid-1980s Suzuki Swift (Chevrolet Sprint in the US) at 620 to 750kg (Sprint: 680kg/1500lb). Unfortunately I suspect that these aren't much easier than mid-60s Opels to find in usable condition. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance
Nice job, Steve ! Compliments to you. Peri -- Original Message -- From: "Steve Heath" To: "Peri Hartman" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" Cc: Sent: 07-Dec-18 8:58:58 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance The car is here: http://www.evalbum.com/5368 It's the result of a bet that I couldn't built an EV for £750 (1000$). It is basically an urban run around as most of my driving is in and around Milton Keynes which has the highest density of ev charging points in the UK and many are free! It became part of my PhD studies. The area is full of gently rolling hills and is not flat which would help and yes power consumption is often higher in one direction than the other. I simulated many donor cars and came to the conclusion that the biggest factors in efficiency were weight and friction/aerodynamic losses. Interestingly if you look at the weight of European vehicles of the last 20 years today's vehicles have doubled in weight compared to their 20 year ancestors despite the use of lightweight materials. Some of it is improved safety but a lot of it are the extra gizmos that are deemed essential for today's market. Do away with those and the weight comes tumbling down. So I selected a Reliant Kitten and found one that was being used as a chicken coop in a barn. The result is a vehicle that weighs only 545kg including batteries which means I'm not expending energy moving things like electric windows, power steering etc etc. There is no wiring loom just a CAN bus and power and all the ancillaries are controlled by multiple micros. All the lights etc are LED including the headlamps, heating is done by taking the hot air from the motor cooling fan and ducting it into the vehicle. The whole vehicle is designed to be as miserly as possible. That is why it gets the good figures. Unfortunately the car has the aerodynamics of a brick but there may be some room for improvement. It has also allowed me to do some clever power management to get the most from the batteries. One big improvement is the 22x 2600F ultracapacitor pack that is connected in parallel with the batteries. These smooth out the power surges and allow more power to be harvested during regen because they can accept higher charging currents than the battery packs. End result is better battery life and the ability to extract a bit more capacity. It is quite fun watching the fuel gauge fill up when braking. Anyway I can cope with manually winding the window up and down, locking the doors individually etc for the 1.5p (2 cents) a mile it costs to run. Especially as gas/diesel is around £6 (7.2$) a gallon in the UK! If I had the aerodynamics of a Leaf, I'm sure I could get the figure to around 100 wh/mile. Not totally sure it would be cost effective though! Steve On 07/12/2018 15:34, Peri Hartman via EV wrote: Steve, Is your worst case really 230 Wh / mile? That's rather incredible (translates to 4.3 miles / kWh). That's around the *best* I ever get with my Leaf, in summer. What are you driving, and where? Peri -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20181207/b44a5b82/attachment.html> ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance
Steve Heath via EV wrote: I'm not sure that I understand what the further complications are. As far as I can see, it should be just simple math. The energy use measured at the motor should be the same as the energy consumed at the battery, minus some percentage for losses in the controller, which will vary with conditions, but can be averaged. Am I missing something? Not really but there are other factors that come into play such as battery recovery time, regen and so on. It makes these losses very difficult to calculate as they are non-linear and condition dependent. Averaging is better than nothing. Yes, it's better than ignoring them. However, most of these losses are non-linear. For example, resistive losses in the motor, batteries, and wiring go up as the square of the current; not linearly. Controller and charger efficiency are highly non-linear as well. The batteries have something called the Peukert effect, which means their apparent amphour capacity goes down as current rises. The level of effect is also dependent on how much leeway you have in your vehicle. To me it is very important as I have a small battery pack - it is now around 6-7kw - and saving 10 or 20 watts per mile can make a big difference. I agree. For most of the history of EVs, our battery packs have always been "small" compared to a tank of gasoline. It has forced EV'ers to think about efficiency. All this is all to do with removing/reducing range anxiety. Matters are not helped when power consumption doubles when the heater is on. Why manufacturers don't have a separate battery pack for the ancillaries so that their use does not reduce the driving range, I don't know. Presumably it is cost and the amount of power needed to power all the gizmos that marketing insist must be present. Anyway getting away from the original topic. It makes more sense to have one big battery than two smaller ones, only one of which is used to propel the car. Range inevitably drops when the heater or A/C is used. But that's true for ICEs as well (though not so much for the heater; ICE's have more heat than they know what to do with). On the amount of power cars use: We go out of our way to have efficient home heating and cooling systems. We have portable clocks, computers, and radios that use tiny amounts of power. But cars (including EVs) are still designed for the "oil age" when power is infinite and free. It takes more power to heat or cool a car than an entire apartment. Cars have negligible insulation, lots of air leaks, and are all single-pane windows. Most of the lights are still tungsten bulbs. A car's clock, radio, and computers use 100's of times more power than your other battery-operated clocks, radios, or computers. The automakers have simply not had to think about power. -- Obsolete (Ob-so-LETE). Adjective. 1. Something that is simple, reliable, straightforward, readily available, easy to use, and affordable. 2. Not what the salesman wants you to buy. -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance
The car is here: http://www.evalbum.com/5368 It's the result of a bet that I couldn't built an EV for £750 (1000$). It is basically an urban run around as most of my driving is in and around Milton Keynes which has the highest density of ev charging points in the UK and many are free! It became part of my PhD studies. The area is full of gently rolling hills and is not flat which would help and yes power consumption is often higher in one direction than the other. I simulated many donor cars and came to the conclusion that the biggest factors in efficiency were weight and friction/aerodynamic losses. Interestingly if you look at the weight of European vehicles of the last 20 years today's vehicles have doubled in weight compared to their 20 year ancestors despite the use of lightweight materials. Some of it is improved safety but a lot of it are the extra gizmos that are deemed essential for today's market. Do away with those and the weight comes tumbling down. So I selected a Reliant Kitten and found one that was being used as a chicken coop in a barn. The result is a vehicle that weighs only 545kg */including batteries/* which means I'm not expending energy moving things like electric windows, power steering etc etc. There is no wiring loom just a CAN bus and power and all the ancillaries are controlled by multiple micros. All the lights etc are LED including the headlamps, heating is done by taking the hot air from the motor cooling fan and ducting it into the vehicle. The whole vehicle is designed to be as miserly as possible. That is why it gets the good figures. Unfortunately the car has the aerodynamics of a brick but there may be some room for improvement. It has also allowed me to do some clever power management to get the most from the batteries. One big improvement is the 22x 2600F ultracapacitor pack that is connected in parallel with the batteries. These smooth out the power surges and allow more power to be harvested during regen because they can accept higher charging currents than the battery packs. End result is better battery life and the ability to extract a bit more capacity. It is quite fun watching the fuel gauge fill up when braking. Anyway I can cope with manually winding the window up and down, locking the doors individually etc for the 1.5p (2 cents) a mile it costs to run. Especially as gas/diesel is around £6 (7.2$) a gallon in the UK! If I had the aerodynamics of a Leaf, I'm sure I could get the figure to around 100 wh/mile. Not totally sure it would be cost effective though! Steve On 07/12/2018 15:34, Peri Hartman via EV wrote: Steve, Is your worst case really 230 Wh / mile? That's rather incredible (translates to 4.3 miles / kWh). That's around the *best* I ever get with my Leaf, in summer. What are you driving, and where? Peri -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20181207/391eff93/attachment.html> ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance
Steve, Is your worst case really 230 Wh / mile? That's rather incredible (translates to 4.3 miles / kWh). That's around the *best* I ever get with my Leaf, in summer. What are you driving, and where? Peri -- Original Message -- From: "Steve Heath" To: "Peri Hartman" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" Cc: Sent: 06-Dec-18 9:28:14 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance It could well be. The charts you refer to have so many caveats that the figures are only a very rough guide. This is one of the major problem of calculating range. The best mile/Kw I have got has been 180 and the worst is 230. Average is 190 and this measurement is based on coulomb counting over the distance. i.e. measuring the amount of power supplied by the batteries to travel the distance. This is not the same as the amount of power from the plug to charge the batteries nor is it the same power that the motor uses which causes further complications. The distances btw are also near the theoretical maximum that my battery pack can support so that the effect of the battery capacity curve cancels out. If I use the capacity used based on voltage then it can get very silly. I was getting figures of 600-700 w/mile because the voltage vs soc is non linear. I could drive 25% of the range and the capacity would drop to 50%. This did not make sense so I stopped using them and fitted coulomb counters. I do use the voltage to predict low battery but the rest of the data is just a rough guide. The gauge does look pretty on the dash though. Get the Leafspy and start collecting your own data and use that to build up the values for your car. That will indicate exactly what is happening. Cheers Steve On 06/12/2018 16:24, Peri Hartman via EV wrote: So, Steve, are you inferring the the 3.2 miles / kWh number could be inaccurate? If it's reasonably accurate, it becomes irrelevant on how efficiently I'm driving (yes, stop & go makes a big difference). I agree, my capacity and remaining charge estimates may be off. That's where the LeafSpy would help. Again, anyone care to recommend a ODB2 device? Peri -- Original Message -- From: "Steve Heath" To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" ; "Peri Hartman" Cc: "Haudy Kazemi" Sent: 06-Dec-18 8:00:26 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance There is another factor: 14 miles in one hour indicates to me a lot of stop start running and this can have a serious effect on the efficiency of the car. I do notice that stop start driving is not as efficient as cruising and there is little or no regen on braking. End result is a 15% difference is consumption in my experience. I can use less energy taking a longer route that has no speed bumps compared to one with them where I have to slow down and accelerate from. Although my car is a conversion, I do have very good coulomb counting instrumentation of what goes out and into the batteries and on the chargers and these agree within 1%. I also have a voltage system that monitors the voltage and controls engaging Turbo mode if that will force the battery voltage to drop below the BMS panic level. What is interesting is that the coulomb counting is pretty well consistent but the voltage representation can vary as much as 20%. LiION batteries are very difficult to measure SOC from the voltage except for the two extremes. So what happens is that the coulomb count is ok but the capacity estimate from the voltage can and does vary. So add all these factors up and it can explain where the missing power has gone. I would also expect to use more than 1 kw for heating. Definitely worth getting more accurate data. On 06/12/2018 15:23, Haudy Kazemi via EV wrote: Leaf owners can benefit greatly from the LeafSpy app (not free) and a quality bluetooth OBD2 adapter. They can then look at the detailed health and capacity stats in app. My guess is 9 bars would be about 16 kWh capacity. You may also be losing energy to sticky brakes. Some brake exercise, including using the parking/emergency brake may be in order. Brake issues are a common issue on gently driven vehicles with regen because the brakes don't get warmed/worked out much. On Wed, Dec 5, 2018, 13:11 Peri Hartman via EV wrote: Thanks, Collin. That affirms one part of the "mystery": poor range in winter. The other half - missing 3.5 kWh - still persists. Peri -- Original Message -- From: "Collin Kidder" To: pe...@kotatko.com; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" Cc: Sent: 05-Dec-18 9:13:32 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance I have two leafs here - 2012 and 2013. The 2012 is lucky to get 40 miles of range in the winter. In the summer it's closer to 50 miles. The 2013 can drive somewhere in the range of about 40-45 miles in Winter and 60-70 miles in Summer. I wouldn't consider any of that to be great but that's how it is. As far as I've heard, the batteries they used in 2011
Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance
On 7 Dec 2018 at 10:30, Steve Heath via EV wrote: > To me it is very important as I have a small battery > pack - it is now around 6-7kw - and saving 10 or 20 watts per mile can make a > big difference. Better extend that detention. :-) I don't mean to make a big deal about this, but saying your battery capacity is 6-7kW is kind of like saying your ICEV's gas tank holds 20 horsepower. Kilowatts are a measure of power. You want Kilowatt HOURS, the measure of energy stored in the battery. > > All this is all to do with removing/reducing range anxiety. If you have a 7kWh battery, I can see why that would be important. :-( > Why manufacturers don't have a separate battery pack for the > ancillaries so that their use does not reduce the driving range, I > don't know. There's actually a good reason for that. When you weren't using the heater, you'd be carrying around useless dead weight. It's because an EV has only so much room and weight capacity for the battery. If you dedicated part of that space to a battery solely for heat and other extras, it would just be sitting there when you didn't need it, adding weight but not range. It turns out that the most efficient and cost-effective way to handle these extras is to make the traction battery as big as it can be (given space, weight and cost considerations), and power the extras from the traction battery. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance
On 06/12/2018 22:09, Roger Stockton via EV wrote: Steve Heath wrote: The best mile/Kw I have got has been 180 and the worst is 230. Average is 190 and this measurement is based on coulomb counting over the distance. I think you are meaning to state 180-230 Wh/mi? 180-230 mile/kWh would be extremely unusual efficiency for an on-road EV, and mile/kW just doesn’t make any sense ;^> I am currently in detention for the typos... If I use the capacity used based on voltage then it can get very silly. I was getting figures of 600-700 w/mile because the voltage vs soc is non linear. I could drive 25% of the range and the capacity would drop to 50%. This did not make sense so I stopped using them and fitted coulomb counters. I do use the voltage to predict low battery but the rest of the data is just a rough guide. The gauge does look pretty on the dash though. I understand your reasoning for not using battery voltage to estimate state of charge, but when you quote any efficiency values involving Wh or kWh (Wh/mi or mi/kWh), you are, of course, taking battery voltage into account because power depends upon both the battery voltage and current, and so, therefore, does energy in Wh or kWh. Pure coulomb-counting will only give you energy usage in mi/Ah, which may be useful in the context of your own EV, but does not allow comparison to the usage of other EVs. Yes you are correct that coulomb counting is only part of the measurements. The meters I use measure the voltage at the same time and calculate the power, and so on. So my EV did a 29 mile journey last night and consumed 117 aH battery capacity and 5.7kW which works out at 196wh/mile. Cheers Steve ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance
On 07/12/2018 01:00, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote: On 6 Dec 2018 at 17:28, Steve Heath via EV wrote: The best mile/Kw I have got has been 180 and the worst is 230. Average is 190 ... If you're getting 190 miles per kWh, I want your EV. I think you probably mean Wh/mile, not miles/kWh. and this measurement is based on coulomb counting over the distance. i.e. measuring the amount of power supplied by the batteries to travel the distance. I think you mean energy, not power. :-) My apologies - you are right. I have given myself 30 minutes detention :) This is not the same as the amount of [energy] from the plug to charge the batteries nor is it the same [energy] that the motor uses which causes further complications. I'm not sure that I understand what the further complications are. As far as I can see, it should be just simple math. The energy use measured at the motor should be the same as the energy consumed at the battery, minus some percentage for losses in the controller, which will vary with conditions, but can be averaged. Am I missing something? Not really but there are other factors that come into play such as battery recovery time, regen and so on. It makes these losses very difficult to calculate as they are non-linear and condition dependent. Averaging is better than nothing. The level of effect is also dependent on how much leeway you have in your vehicle. To me it is very important as I have a small battery pack - it is now around 6-7kw - and saving 10 or 20 watts per mile can make a big difference. All this is all to do with removing/reducing range anxiety. Matters are not helped when power consumption doubles when the heater is on. Why manufacturers don't have a separate battery pack for the ancillaries so that their use does not reduce the driving range, I don't know. Presumably it is cost and the amount of power needed to power all the gizmos that marketing insist must be present. Anyway getting away from the original topic. Cheers Steve ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
