[EVDL] NMC /w zero volts

[evtlfp20 via EV]

 I recived a shipment of NMC battery pack with zero volts across 12s , 
and yes they all showed zero.
I read about bumping the cells with nicad setting to get them to 3 volts 
so the normal charging could begin and most of them charged to Storage 
voltage and have held with in 4/100 of a volt ( 3.70 ) 1 week now .  
theses are 30amhr 10C rated.


I was warned that metal based dendrits that have formed becuse of below 
zero volts could cause the cells to go blastic .


 most of the cells show an Internal Impendance  of 17 - 22 meg.
Should I put them into a light test use and do a few lights cycles or 
solud I just slowly bleed them to zero then send to recycling?


I like to get come use and No Fires
___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Re: [EVDL] plusing charger controller / no bms

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

This is kind of long (I tend to run on, sorry).  Please bear with me and 
I'll eventually come to the point.

I'm sort of the electronics equivalent of a shadetree mechanic.  I've hacked 
(in the good sense) electronics since I was a teenager.  ICs weren't really 
available to hobbyists then.  My early tinkering was with tubes, germanium 
semiconductors, and eventually silicon semiconductors. 

You young whippersnappers don't know what you've missed, not getting to play 
with 6SL7 and 6V6 tubes, inefficient selenium rectifiers, and 800 volt B+ 
supplies (yeah, I got zapped a few times).

So even though I'm a EE dropout, I have a lot of years of messing around 
with electronics and, with a little research and luck, making things work.

I'm glad to say that despite doing some moderately stupid things, I've never 
started any fires.  I want to keep it that way, which is the reason that 
when I started using lithium batteries for a few tasks, I did NOT try to 
hack up my own lithium batteries.  

Instead, I did my homework, researching who made reliable batteries with 
charging systems.  Then I bought them.  

Yes, they cost me more than buying bare cells on Ebay and tacking them 
together -- quite a bit more.  They cost me more than Aliexpress junk.  But 
they worked right out of the shipping box, delivering their rated capacity 
and then some. 

And they STILL work.  The batteries I bought from Li Ping in early 2012 are 
still producing over 90% of their rated capacity.  

You'll find lots of lithium hackers in Youtube channels, forums, and social 
media, who swear that they don't need no steenkin' BMSes.  You'll even find 
some who claim that BMSes *cause* fires.  You can identify these folks by 
their frequent use of the phrase "bottom balancing."

With all due respect, and at the risk of offending someone, I suggest that 
you not listen to them.

Your mobile phone has smart charging and discharging control.  (The charger 
IS the BMS because phones need only one lithium cell.)  Every laptop and 
tablet has a smart BMS and charging/discharging control.  Every good lithium 
power tool and home appliance has them.  Every production EV has them.  

With some notable exceptions (*cough* cheap Chinese hoverboards *cough*), 
these are lithium battery systems designed by experienced engineers.  Some 
engineers are better than others, and some bean counters managing them are 
more ethical than others, but by and large you can reasonably expect that 
you can leave a lithium-powered commercial product charging on your kitchen 
counter and it won't burst into flames.  That's because it has appropriate 
charging / discharging control.

There are people on the EVDL who have the engineering chops to design a 
lithium battery system that maximizes the life of the cells and prevents 
such disasters as fires and explosions.  However, I'm not one of them.  With 
all due respect, from what you've posted here, I don't think you are either.

In fact, one of the EV conversion pioneers that I greatly respect, Bob 
Batson of EV America, didn't try to design his own lithium battery system 
either.  He referred his customers who wanted lithium to companies with more 
experience with it.  More recently he's taken on an experienced supply 
partner for lithium.  He wisely knew and knows his own limitations.

http://evamerica.com/flux.html

I'm not recommending Bob's batteries.  I can't, since I haven't used them.  
I'm just pointing out that designing a safe and long-lived lithium battery 
for an EV is not a trivial project.  It's not (IMO) a good one for EV 
hackers like me.  

I strongly suggest that instead of jumping in feet first and maybe having to 
jump out and run really fast on singed feet, you keep using lead for a 
while.  Save up your pennies until you can afford to buy a well designed 
integrated lithium battery SYSTEM (cells, BMS, charger).

It might be boring, but it will help avoid the kind of excitement that you 
probably don't want.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not 
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my 
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Re: [EVDL] plusing charger controller / no bms

[paul dove via EV]

Doesn't somebody have to die for a Darwin award?
 

On Friday, March 22, 2019, 11:44:25 AM CDT, Lee Hart via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 Dan Baker via EV wrote:
> Thanks guys for the information. Ken and I are reaching out for help so
> don't spank us yet for putting in something dangerous lol.

Hi guys,

I'm not trying to "spank" anyone. Just get them to look before they leap!

Did you ever have a (usually teenage) friend say, "Hold my beer and 
watch this..." What followed was one of those disasterous "Darwin award" 
moments that you can only laugh about years later.

I've *been* one of those "teenagers" myself. I've done some amazingly 
stupid things out of ignorance, or just to "see what happens if..." So 
some of the things in this discussion set off alarm bells.

> In my case, where I plan to use a BMS but want to reuse a lead charger,
> a BMS and voltage cut-off so the charger doesn't just send amps to the
> shunts when all cells reach full charge is a bad idea?

It is a bad idea. It only works if

- You KNOW the voltage and current that the charger actually delivers 
when the BMS tries to shunt current around a cell.

- You KNOW the BMS can safely shunt the charger's current at that time.

- You KNOW that something will turn the charger off before it sits too 
long under these conditions.

You will have to test this for yourself. Do not trust the charger or BMS 
manufacturer's marketing claims. They will say anything to "make the 
sale", and will not accept *any* responsibility if things go wrong!

> Without a CAN bus, how does the charger know when to turn off?

Exactly! A lead-acid charger may *never* turn off. Many simply stay on 
"forever", on the assumption that a lead-acid battery won't be harmed 
(too much) by being left on a "float" charge forever.

> Does it need to turn off?

Yes! This is intolerable for lithiums. You have to be SURE the charger 
turns off, or the cells will get charged to death.

> Most of the pre-built packs for sale I have seen only employ 2 wires
> (sometimes a third for temp) to the battery which say they have an on-board 
> BMS.

The cheapest (and so most common) scheme is no BMS at all. They depend 
on the cells being matched well enough that you won't need a BMS until 
they age a bit and start to drift apart.

The second-cheapest scheme (which covers alomst everything else) is 
something equivalent to a zener diode across each cell. When it reaches 
some voltage, it shunts the charging current away from the cell.

This only works if the charger is delivering a current that is *lower* 
than the shunt can safely handle. Most shunts are tiny; they can only 
bypass maybe 100 milliamps of current.

If the shunts can't handle the charger's current, they burn up or fail. 
Then you have no protection. The next thing to fail is the cell (perhaps 
spectacularly).

Even if the shunt can handle the charging current, it is converting it 
to heat. This heat is dumped into the battery box. Having large numbers 
of shunts all producing heat for long periods is a bad thing, as heat 
kills lithium cells. That's why you must *know* that the charger will 
shut down in some relatively short time period.

> I know in lead charging, the amperage draw slowly drops to near 0 as
> the pack reaches full charge.

Yes, if all the cells are good. If a cell is bad, or the pack is hot, or 
old, the current does not drop off at full charge. Lead-acids can "take 
it" for a while (this is how you equalize them).

> With Lithium and a BMS, when the cells reach full charge
> (determined by the BMS) and the BMS shunts the load, is that load
> significant?  I have looked at a few BMS boards so far, none seem to have a
> relay or signal that controls the charger power so I'm assuming a fully
> shunted BMS isnt that much of a load.

If the BMS is any good, it will have an output that either tells a 
"smart" charger to shut off, or can control a relay to force a "dumb" 
charger to shut off.

Assuming your BMS has such an output, you also want to be sure it is 
"fail safe". That is, if the BMS fails, it STOPS the charger. Too many 
cheap ones can fail "on".

-- 
Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more
violent. It takes a touch of genius, and a lot of courage, to move
in the opposite direction. -- Albert Einstein
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

  
-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 
<http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20190322/85c6de86/attachment.html>
_

Re: [EVDL] EV Digest, Vol 77, Issue 32

[Willie via EV]

On 3/21/19 5:51 PM, fred via EV wrote:

  I had had a conversation with the folks at eMotorwerks a while ago, aimed at getting 
the once-available Juice Plug device. It was an intermediate gadget that one connected to 
the J1772 port and had the mating port at the other end. This would have 
"retrofitted" the EVSE, any EVSE to wifi capability, but was told that it was 
discontinued. Shucks. Nothing was said to me about retrofitting the existing box and 
there's no indication on the site for that feature, which I would have snapped up in a 
blink.


I attempted to purchase a Juice Plug when they first solicited on 
KickStarter:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/emw/juiceplug-a-universal-smart-ev-charging-adapter/description

That was ~3 years ago.  I am still waiting.  For a while they would tell 
us the development troubles but nothing from them in a year or so.  No 
notice to KickStarter contributors that they were giving up.  No refunds.



___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

[EVDL] Frustrating EV rebate> (in spouse's name does not count) (v)

[brucedp5 via EV]

https://www.firstcoastnews.com/article/news/local/tesla-owner-finds-getting-jea-rebate-offer-frustrating/77-2fabff78-85c7-411b-a481-006ccac32edb
TESLA owner finds getting JEA rebate offer frustrating
March 21, 2019  Kenneth Amaro

[video  flash]

He knew about federal tax incentives, but during the sale, he learned that
there is also an incentive offered by the Jacksonville Electric Authority.

JACKSONVILLE, Fla. — After waiting for his opportunity, Jameson Simmons was
finally able to buy the Model 3 TESLA electric vehicle he wanted in
December.

"It does a lot of cool things," he said.

He knew about federal tax incentives, but during the sale, he learned that
there is also an incentive offered by the Jacksonville Electric Authority.

"You can get a check for a thousand dollars for a car like this," he said.

All he was required to do was provide a valid Florida registration, proof of
sale, and a recent JEA Electric bill.

He filed out the forms and provided the required information, but his
application for a rebate was denied.

"I got a letter from them saying 'your name is not on the JEA bill,'" said
Simmons. "'So you are not eligible.'"

The car registration address and the address on the JEA account are the
same, however, the account is in his wife's name, which is not uncommon.  

To be eligible for the rebate, he had his name added to the account and
reapplied, but got the same result.

"I got a letter saying we need to see a bill with both names on it," said
Simmons.

Which is not how the billing statements are mailed. Simmons is frustrated.

"As far as I can tell we are doing everything right but it is a little bit
of that bureaucratic communication getting in the way," he said.

If he has done everything correctly why is there a problem?  

"I don't get it," Simons said. "We buy power from JEA at this address, we
register this car at this address, we're a married couple, I can prove it."

On Your Side reached out to JEA who reviewed the account and fixed the
issue.

A spokesperson said;

"We were able to go into the account and see he was listed. It has been
approved and his rebate is being processed right now."

Simmons said he followed the rules and is eligible for the rebate. 

It is the first time we have heard a complaint about the program. The JEA
began the rebate incentive for electric cars in 2015.

So far 470 electric car owners have taken advantage of the rebate, including
Jameson Simmons.

His check is now in the mail.

To learn more about the application process go to JEA.com 

If you are having a problem with the JEA Plug-In Electric Vehicles Rebate
Program you contact them at 877-620-1935 or by e-mail at jeapev @efi.org.
[© firstcoastnews.com]


+
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-y-model-3-tow-hitch-confirmed-report/
Tesla Model Y and Model 3 are both getting a tow hitch soon: report
March 20, 2019  The information was reportedly related by Tesla’s chief
designer Franz von Holzhausen himself, who confirmed that such equipment was
indeed coming for the electric vehicles. Immediately following the ...




For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
 http://evdl.org/archive/


{brucedp.neocities.org}

--
Sent from: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/
___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

[EVDL] EVLN: EV-newswire posts for 20190323

[brucedp5 via EV]

http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-EV-Convert-an-ice-or-Replace-It-5k-20k-cost-tp4693175.html
EVLN: EV-Convert an ice or Replace It?> ($5k-$20k cost?)
Is It Better to Convert a Gasoline Car to Electric or Replace It?
Mar 18 2019  Is it better to convert an old gasoline car to electric rather
than replace it, if one can ... That's because it takes much more power to
propel a heavier vehicle, while ...
https://www.sierraclub.org/sites/www.sierraclub.org/files/styles/flexslider_full/public/sierra/articles/big/SIERRA%20EV%20Conversion%20WB.jpg


http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Plug-n-play-EV-wheel-4small-urban-use-designed-whatnot-tp4693176.html
EVLN: Plug-n-play EV-wheel> 4small urban-use-designed whatnot
Plug-and-play wheel unit designed to boost production of EVs
March 18, 2019  Although Teslas and whatnot may get a lot of attention, many
electric cars are actually small vehicles designed solely for urban use,
made by struggling startup ...
https://img.newatlas.com/electric-car-wheel-unit-2.jpg?auto=format%2Ccompress=Width%2CDPR=max=60=616=4024b4f2d6a5c158e55d6c01bc5ba0b0


+
https://www.carscoops.com/2019/03/fisker-teases-entry-level-ev-will-cost-around-4/
Fisker Teases Entry-Level EV, Will Cost Around $4
March 11, 2019 ... have a “very different” design. If everything goes
according to plan, Fisker intends to produce around 250,000 vehicles
annually by 2025 ... Fisker has said this will enable electric vehicles to
travel more than 500 miles (805 km) ...
https://twitter.com/henrikfisker/status/1104032405814296581
...
https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1121983_fisker-to-reveal-details-on-close-to-4-ev-on-march-18
 (reveal $130k Fisker EMotion EV on March 18)


http://www.autocarpro.in/news-international/karma-teases-pininfarinadesigned-electric-luxury-car-42368
Karma teases Pininfarina-designed electric luxury car
12 Mar 2019  Karma has released the first teaser image of the new concept
that it's developing with Italian design house Pininfarina ... unnamed
luxury model will be revealed ...
http://www.autocarpro.in/userfiles/dc06dfff-bb9f-4ff5-a917-4212fc632bb7.jpg


http://www.itsinternational.com/sections/general/news/bharat-installs-solar-ev-chargers-along-highway-in-delhi/
Bharat installs solar EV chargers along highway in Delhi
March 11, 2019  Bharat Heavy Electricals is setting up a network of
solar-based electric vehicle chargers (SEVC) on the Delhi-Chandigarh Highway
in India to help alleviate ...


http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Free-augmented-reality-Rodem-e-scooter-tours-jp-10a-5p-through-Fri-ts-6kph-tp4693165.html
Free augmented-reality Rodem e-scooter-tours.jp 10a-5p
through Fri ts:6kph
Hi-tech scooters get trial run in Tokyo's business district
March 20, 2019  Hi-tech scooters get trial run in Tokyo's business district
... with a tablet device that allows users to access information on
restaurants and shops in the area while on the move ...
https://s.hdnux.com/photos/01/01/16/30/17098272/3/920x920.jpg




For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
 http://evdl.org/archive/
https://mail-archive.com/ev@lists.evdl.org/maillist.html


{brucedp.neocities.org}

--
Sent from: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/
___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

[EVDL] EVLN: Plug-n-play EV-wheel> 4small urban-use-designed whatnot

[brucedp5 via EV]

https://newatlas.com/electric-car-wheel-unit/58908/
Plug-and-play wheel unit designed to boost production of EVs
Automotive
March 18, 2019  Ben Coxworth

[images  
https://img.newatlas.com/electric-car-wheel-unit-1.jpg?auto=format%2Ccompress=Width%2CDPR=crop=347=60=0%2C43%2C1440%2C810=616=398535a59ee9275e763a99b914d761f9
Prof. Amir Khajepour poses with a prototype three-wheeled vehicle that uses
the new self-contained wheel units(Credit: University of Waterloo)

https://img.newatlas.com/electric-car-wheel-unit-2.jpg?auto=format%2Ccompress=Width%2CDPR=max=60=616=4024b4f2d6a5c158e55d6c01bc5ba0b0
]

Although Teslas and whatnot may get a lot of attention, many electric cars
are actually small vehicles designed solely for urban use [
https://newatlas.com/eli-zero-nev/53808/
], made by struggling startup companies. A new wheel module could help
increase the economic viability of building such vehicles, by simplifying
the design and production processes.

Created by a team at Canada's University of Waterloo, each self-contained
unit consists of a wheel with an integrated electric motor, along with
braking, suspension, steering and control systems (power is supplied by the
vehicle's existing battery pack).

Instead of having to design and fabricate all these separate components from
scratch, automakers could simply bolt the pre-made wheel units to the
corners of their cars' frames. Steering, acceleration and braking commands
would then be relayed from the cabin electronically, not mechanically.

As a side benefit of this arrangement, which does away with parts such as a
steering column, there would be more room inside the car for passengers or
cargo.
The units incorporate a dual four-bar linkage mechanism, to tilt the wheel
on side-slopes

In the technology's current state, each module weighs about 40 kg (88 lb).
And because small electric cars do tend to be tall for their width, the
units incorporate an active wheel cambering system – this means that when
the car is driving along a slope that would otherwise tip the vehicle to one
side, the wheels automatically compensate by tilting to keep the car
upright.

"The idea is modularity and plug-and-play control capability," says Prof.
Amir Khajepour. "Our wheel unit, in a sense, is a full vehicle with only one
wheel. All that's missing is a body."

Plans now call for the system to be scaled up, so it could also be used on
larger utility and commercial electric vehicles. A paper on the technology
was recently published in the Journal of Automobile Engineering [
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0954407017748810?journalCode=pidb
] ... [© newatlas.com]
...
https://uwaterloo.ca/engineering/news/researchers-develop-wheel-units-cut-vehicle-costs


+
http://www.autocarpro.in/news-international/karma-teases-pininfarinadesigned-electric-luxury-car-42368
Karma teases Pininfarina-designed electric luxury car
12 Mar 2019  Karma has released the first teaser image of the new concept
that it's developing with Italian design house Pininfarina ... unnamed
luxury model will be revealed ...
http://www.autocarpro.in/userfiles/dc06dfff-bb9f-4ff5-a917-4212fc632bb7.jpg




For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
 http://evdl.org/archive/


{brucedp.neocities.org}

--
Sent from: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/
___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

[EVDL] EVLN: EV-Convert an ice or Replace It?> ($5k-$20k cost?)

[brucedp5 via EV]

https://www.sierraclub.org/sierra/it-better-convert-gasoline-car-electric-or-replace-it
Is It Better to Convert a Gasoline Car to Electric or Replace It?
Mar 18 2019  Bob Schildgen

[image  / krisanapong detraphiphat/iStock
https://www.sierraclub.org/sites/www.sierraclub.org/files/styles/flexslider_full/public/sierra/articles/big/SIERRA%20EV%20Conversion%20WB.jpg?itok=5x8LZ1P1
]

Mr. Green pops the hood for the answer

Hey Mr. Green,

Is it better to convert an old gasoline car to electric rather than replace
it, if one can afford the conversion price? I'm hoping this might be an
environmentally friendly option for drivers like me who have a vehicle they
would like to keep for a long time.

—Cooper in Davis, California

A lot depends on what kind of car you drive. Many vehicles are more than
4,000 pounds, while some weigh in at less than half that much. If it’s up
there in the two-ton range, it may not be worth the effort. That’s because
it takes much more power to propel a heavier vehicle, while lighter weights
like a Chevrolet’s Metro (1,653 pounds) or Aveo (2,315 pounds) may be valid
candidates. It’s worth noting that cars have expanded over the years. The
successor to the Aveo, the Sonic, is now up to 2,794 pounds.


Costs and labor for the electric retrofit vary, from anywhere between $5,000
and $20,000, depending on how many steps are required for the vehicle, from
removing the engine, gas tank, exhaust system, and clutch to rewiring the
ignition switch. One source, Project ForenSwift, claims to have spent a net
of only $1,000 on electrifying a used Metro that originally cost $175. The
owner had to scrounge used parts and did not reveal how many hours they
dedicated to the project. 
[© sierraclub.org]


+
https://www.carscoops.com/2019/03/fisker-teases-entry-level-ev-will-cost-around-4/
Fisker Teases Entry-Level EV, Will Cost Around $4
March 11, 2019 ... have a “very different” design. If everything goes
according to plan, Fisker intends to produce around 250,000 vehicles
annually by 2025 ... Fisker has said this will enable electric vehicles to
travel more than 500 miles (805 km) ...
https://twitter.com/henrikfisker/status/1104032405814296581
...
https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1121983_fisker-to-reveal-details-on-close-to-4-ev-on-march-18
 (reveal $130k Fisker EMotion EV on March 18)




For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
 http://evdl.org/archive/


{brucedp.neocities.org}

--
Sent from: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/
___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

[EVDL] EVLN: EV-newswire posts for 20190322

[brucedp5 via EV]

http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-300M-Hyundai-Kia-EVs-4Ola-rideshare-in-tp4693171.html
EVLN: $300M Hyundai,Kia EVs 4Ola(rideshare.in)
Hyundai and Kia take a $300 million Ola ride into India’s electric vehicles
space
March 19, 2019  India's electric vehicles (EV) space has just received a
South Korean booster shot. Carmakers Hyundai Motors and Kia Motors today
(March 19) announced that ...


http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-DRR-Stealth-72V-e-ATV-nimble-while-sturdy-v-tp4693172.html
EVLN: DRR Stealth 72V e-ATV> nimble while sturdy (v)
DRR Stealth Electric ATV
2019-03-18  The folks at DRR have a solution ... this is the first vehicle
of its kind with a size comparable to 660cc options ... nimble while still
being sturdy ...
https://cdn.hiconsumption.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/DRR-Stealth-Electric-ATV-0-Hero.jpg


+
https://www.livemint.com/auto-news/ola-in-talks-to-buy-custom-made-e-vehicles-1552502380806.html
Ola in talks to buy custom-made e-vehicles
14 Mar 2019  ANI Technologies-owned Ola is in talks with India's top auto
makers to procure custom-made electric and connected vehicles as the
ride-hailing platform plots ...
https://images.livemint.com/img/2019/03/13/600x338/ac78e74a-457d-11e9-ae39-b55b8660fc0c_1552502379408_1552502620843.jpg


https://www.vwvortex.com/news/volkswagen-r-cars-skip-hybrid-phase-go-full-ev/
Volkswagen R Cars to Skip the Hybrid Phase and go Full EV
March 6, 2019  VW is going all-in on EVs, so the first electric car to wear
an ‘R’ badge probably isn’t too far off. The automaker is preparing to ...
https://www.vwvortex.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Volkswagen-Golf-GTE-Sport-concept-922-800x500.jpg


 (TMC partnership expands hybrid [not-EV] production)
https://www.independent.ie/business/technology/toyota-and-suzuki-drive-new-electric-vehicle-partnership-37934885.html
Toyota and Suzuki drive new electric vehicle partnership
March 21 2019  Carmakers Toyota and Suzuki yesterday said they plan to
produce electric vehicles (EVs) and compact cars for each other to better
compete with fast-changing ...
https://cdn-01.independent.ie/incoming/article37935650.ece/cb583/AUTOCROP/w620/P30.fiveways.jpg


http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/hov-rage-miffed-Bolt-EV-r-blocked4-5mi-2merge-into-carpool-lane-tp4693164.html
hov-rage: miffed Bolt EV'r blocked4 5mi 2merge into carpool lane
A new road rage? Bay Area electric car driver shares HOV lane tale
March 20, 2019  You never know what's going to make someone flip you off on
the freeway, but one recent Bay Area tale illustrates the near-constant
chaos of our local freeways. Recently, a Bay Area driver was ...
https://s.hdnux.com/photos/73/11/27/15504860/5/920x920.jpg




For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
 http://evdl.org/archive/
https://mail-archive.com/ev@lists.evdl.org/maillist.html


{brucedp.neocities.org}

--
Sent from: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/
___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Re: [EVDL] plusing charger controller / no bms

[Lee Hart via EV]

Dan Baker via EV wrote:

Thanks guys for the information. Ken and I are reaching out for help so
don't spank us yet for putting in something dangerous lol.


Hi guys,

I'm not trying to "spank" anyone. Just get them to look before they leap!

Did you ever have a (usually teenage) friend say, "Hold my beer and 
watch this..." What followed was one of those disasterous "Darwin award" 
moments that you can only laugh about years later.


I've *been* one of those "teenagers" myself. I've done some amazingly 
stupid things out of ignorance, or just to "see what happens if..." So 
some of the things in this discussion set off alarm bells.



In my case, where I plan to use a BMS but want to reuse a lead charger,
a BMS and voltage cut-off so the charger doesn't just send amps to the
shunts when all cells reach full charge is a bad idea?


It is a bad idea. It only works if

- You KNOW the voltage and current that the charger actually delivers 
when the BMS tries to shunt current around a cell.


- You KNOW the BMS can safely shunt the charger's current at that time.

- You KNOW that something will turn the charger off before it sits too 
long under these conditions.


You will have to test this for yourself. Do not trust the charger or BMS 
manufacturer's marketing claims. They will say anything to "make the 
sale", and will not accept *any* responsibility if things go wrong!



Without a CAN bus, how does the charger know when to turn off?


Exactly! A lead-acid charger may *never* turn off. Many simply stay on 
"forever", on the assumption that a lead-acid battery won't be harmed 
(too much) by being left on a "float" charge forever.



Does it need to turn off?


Yes! This is intolerable for lithiums. You have to be SURE the charger 
turns off, or the cells will get charged to death.



Most of the pre-built packs for sale I have seen only employ 2 wires
(sometimes a third for temp) to the battery which say they have an on-board BMS.


The cheapest (and so most common) scheme is no BMS at all. They depend 
on the cells being matched well enough that you won't need a BMS until 
they age a bit and start to drift apart.


The second-cheapest scheme (which covers alomst everything else) is 
something equivalent to a zener diode across each cell. When it reaches 
some voltage, it shunts the charging current away from the cell.


This only works if the charger is delivering a current that is *lower* 
than the shunt can safely handle. Most shunts are tiny; they can only 
bypass maybe 100 milliamps of current.


If the shunts can't handle the charger's current, they burn up or fail. 
Then you have no protection. The next thing to fail is the cell (perhaps 
spectacularly).


Even if the shunt can handle the charging current, it is converting it 
to heat. This heat is dumped into the battery box. Having large numbers 
of shunts all producing heat for long periods is a bad thing, as heat 
kills lithium cells. That's why you must *know* that the charger will 
shut down in some relatively short time period.



I know in lead charging, the amperage draw slowly drops to near 0 as
the pack reaches full charge.


Yes, if all the cells are good. If a cell is bad, or the pack is hot, or 
old, the current does not drop off at full charge. Lead-acids can "take 
it" for a while (this is how you equalize them).



With Lithium and a BMS, when the cells reach full charge
(determined by the BMS) and the BMS shunts the load, is that load
significant?  I have looked at a few BMS boards so far, none seem to have a
relay or signal that controls the charger power so I'm assuming a fully
shunted BMS isnt that much of a load.


If the BMS is any good, it will have an output that either tells a 
"smart" charger to shut off, or can control a relay to force a "dumb" 
charger to shut off.


Assuming your BMS has such an output, you also want to be sure it is 
"fail safe". That is, if the BMS fails, it STOPS the charger. Too many 
cheap ones can fail "on".


--
Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more
violent. It takes a touch of genius, and a lot of courage, to move
in the opposite direction. -- Albert Einstein
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

[EVDL] EVLN: DRR Stealth 72V e-ATV> nimble while sturdy (v)

[brucedp5 via EV]

https://hiconsumption.com/2019/03/drr-stealth-electric-atv/
DRR Stealth Electric ATV
2019-03-18  Sean Tirman

[images  
https://cdn.hiconsumption.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/DRR-Stealth-Electric-ATV-0-Hero.jpg

https://cdn.hiconsumption.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/DRR-Stealth-Electric-ATV-1.jpg

https://cdn.hiconsumption.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/DRR-Stealth-Electric-ATV-2.jpg

https://cdn.hiconsumption.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/DRR-Stealth-Electric-ATV-3.jpg


video
https://youtu.be/CylGd3NwKk4
DRR Stealth Electric ATV on Kickstarter
]

There are a lot of good reasons to hop aboard an ATV when tooling around
off-road. For starters, they’re far more maneuverable than most larger
vehicles. They’re also nimble while still being sturdy, unlike motorcycles.
But there are a number of downsides, as well — namely, they’re quite loud
and not at all environmentally-friendly. The folks at DRR have a solution,
however, in their Stealth electric ATV.

According to the brand, this is the first vehicle of its kind with a size
comparable to 660cc options currently available on the market. Where it
differs, most obviously, is in its power plant: a silent-running
all-electric motor powered by a 72 volt, 4-kilowatt lithium-ion battery pack
that plugs into any standard three-prong outlet. With the standard edition,
it can travel up to 35 miles uphill at full throttle, but also comes with
the option for an upgrade that’s good for 65 miles per charge. It can also
quick-charge in just six hours, has a handy digital dash, can haul a rider
alongside 365 pounds of gear (mounted on the included racks), and is
completely gear-less — so you don’t have to worry about shifting while you
ride. The project is live on Kickstarter now starting at $7,500 [
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/drrusa/the-stealth-electric-atv
] ... [© hiconsumption.com]


+
https://www.vwvortex.com/news/volkswagen-r-cars-skip-hybrid-phase-go-full-ev/
Volkswagen R Cars to Skip the Hybrid Phase and go Full EV
March 6, 2019  VW is going all-in on EVs, so the first electric car to wear
an ‘R’ badge probably isn’t too far off. The automaker is preparing to ...
https://www.vwvortex.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Volkswagen-Golf-GTE-Sport-concept-922-800x500.jpg




For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
 http://evdl.org/archive/


{brucedp.neocities.org}

--
Sent from: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/
___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

[EVDL] EVLN: $300M Hyundai,Kia EVs 4Ola(rideshare.in)

[brucedp5 via EV]

https://qz.com/india/1575789/hyundai-kia-invest-300-million-in-ola-to-enter-indian-ev-space/
Hyundai and Kia take a $300 million Ola ride into India’s electric vehicles
space
March 19, 2019  Durba Ghosh

[image]  Journalists take photographs of Hyundai Motor's first hybrid car
IONIQ during its unveiling ceremony in Seoul
Reuters/Kim Hong-Ji
The showstopper.
ELECTRIC SPARK

India’s electric vehicles (EV) space has just received a South Korean
booster shot.

Carmakers Hyundai Motors and Kia Motors today (March 19) announced that they
plan to invest $300 million (Rs2,059 crore) in the EV initiative of India’s
top cab-hailing company Ola. The two companies are tapping the app-based
taxi space to increase sales of their EVs, as personal vehicle sales are yet
to take off. Hyundai had led a Rs100-crore funding round in car rental
startup Revv in August last year.

Hyundai and Kia will also work with Ola to create new mobility solutions
using e-cars, build India-specific EVs, and develop the infrastructure
required for it, a press release said.

“Our partnership with Ola will certainly accelerate our efforts to transform
into a smart mobility solutions provider,” Euisun Chung, executive
vice-chairman of Hyundai Motor Group, said in the release.

The confluence

Taxis, according to Amit Kaushik, country head of automotive consultancy
Urban Science, will be the first mover in accelerating the adoption of EVs
in India.

In the past few years, firms such as General Motors, Ford, and Toyota, have
all backed ride-hailing companies such as Uber and Lyft. Toyota also made
its maiden investment in India’s startup ecosystem last year, having led a
$30-million round in the used automobile marketplace and auto services
company Droom.

In February, India’s homegrown Mahindra & Mahindra launched its own service,
Glyd, exclusively for the EVs it manufactures. The tractors-to-IT
conglomerate has also previously invested in car-rental firm Zoomcar over
multiple rounds.

These moves reflect the overall gloom in the Indian automobile sector.

In 2018, passenger vehicle sales saw single-digit growth of over 5% to
33,93,705 units over the previous year. The situation hasn’t improved in the
current year. The country’s largest carmaker, Maruti Suzuki, which accounts
for over 50% of the passenger vehicle market, saw a marginal growth of 1.1%
in January.

What’s in it for Ola?

For Ola, the investment is a lifeboat for its EV initiative piloted two
years ago in Nagpur, Maharashtra, as part of prime minister Narendra Modi’s
ambitious plan to make all new vehicles electric by 2030. With an initial
investment of about $8 million, Softbank-backed Ola had hoped to deploy over
10,000 EVs over the following years.

However, the programme hit a snag as drivers were left helpless in long
queues at woefully few charging stations. The company subsequently changed
track to focus on e-three wheelers that cost five times less than an e-car.

Partnering car manufacturers will help Ola revive its e-car ambitions as
Hyundai and Kia’s in-house engineering and maintenance capabilities will
help keep operating costs low.

The investment will also give the Bengaluru-based firm’s founders, Bhavish
Aggarwal and Ankit Bhati, strong leverage against its largest investor
SoftBank. The Japanese investor, which also has a stake in rival Uber, had
made a play for a majority stake in Ola in 2016 when it offered to invest $1
billion fresh capital in the company. Ola, however, preferred to curtail
SoftBank’s influence and has since been trying to bring in fresh investors.

The fresh funding will also give Ola ammunition against rival Uber.

“This partnership will also significantly benefit driver-partners on our
platform,” Bhavish Aggarwal, co-founder and CEO of Ola said.
[© qz.com]


https://www.financialexpress.com/auto/car-news/hyundai-kia-make-big-300-mn-investment-in-ola-focus-on-electric-vehicles/1520834/
Hyundai, Kia make big $ 300 mn investment in Ola: Focus on Electric Vehicles
March 19, 2019  The said investment will be used to jointly develop electric
vehicles ecosystem and fleet services for global markets. The development of
electric vehicles is also ...


https://www.firstpost.com/business/hyundai-kia-invest-300-million-in-ola-to-develop-electric-vehicles-ecosystem-smart-mobility-solutions-6286771.html
Hyundai, Kia invest $300 million in Ola to develop electric vehicles
ecosystem, smart mobility solutions
Mar 19, 2019  Under the partnership, the three companies will also aim to
develop electric vehicles (EVs) and charging infrastructure customised for
the Indian market, the ...


https://www.ft.com/content/e2ace12a-49ee-11e9-bbc9-6917dce3dc62
Hyundai and Yandex sign deal to develop self-driving car tech
March 19, 2019   The tie-up came as Hyundai announced it would invest $300m
in Indian ride-hailing company Ola, primarily to boost the Uber rival’s
expansion into electric vehicles — another trend alongside autonomous ...


+

Re: [EVDL] plusing charger controller / no bms

[Dan Baker via EV]

or fail shorted. In either case, this can lead to a
> > fire. That's why you normally have a BMS. It senses each cell, and can
> > stop the charger if something goes wrong.
> >
> > If you are a cheapskate, and don't believe in BMS, then at the very
> > least I would suggest something like my Batt-Bridge
> > <http://sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm#battbridge>. It will at least warn
> > you that something is wrong *before* the disaster. You can also use
> > the light from the Batt-Bridge LEDs to control a relay to shut down
> > the charger (if charging) or motor controller (if driving).
> >
> ___
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>
-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 
<http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20190322/abca33cf/attachment.html>
___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Re: [EVDL] plusing charger controller / no bms

[Steve Heath via EV]

Wise words indeed. The price of a BMS is so cheap these days that it is 
almost inconceivable not to fit one.


Steve

On 22/03/2019 06:42, Lee Hart via EV wrote:

ken via EV wrote:

My charger is set to be the right voltage but the old cells being 22 in
series string they need to equalized out at the top/end of the charge.
this requires some battery baby sitting,

if your cells are staying very well balanced then your voltage cut off
method/gadjet may be good.

your ebay gadget coud also be be good for those wanting to do a lower
state of  charge, like turn the voltage down   5 volts for a 10% 
lower top

charge.

I have 2 ev scooters with  22 and 24 lfp cells.


This is a harder problem than you might think. Mistakes can lead to 
expensive failures, and even fires! I have several concerns in this 
discussion:


- Lack of knowledge about the cells being charged:
- Don't know their actual state of balance.
- Don't know the right voltage to charge them to.

- Lack of information on exactly what the charger is doing:
- What voltage and current does it actually charge to?
- What exactly makes it decide the battery is full?
- And, does it really shut off, or keep on "float" charging?

- Human nature: People who are inexperienced tend to:
- Guess.
- Ignore the problem.
- Seek bad advice (that tells them what they want to hear).
- Then go with the cheapest solution.

So, my advice is to learn all you can! Get data sheets for the 
batteries and charger in question. If you can't, make measurements for 
yourself (don't rely on assumptions, or bogus experts on the internet. 
or marketing claims from unknown suppliers).


If you go without a BMS, understand that any minor failure is likely 
to escalate into a *major* failure before you notice it! It's like 
deciding you don't need any expensive fuses or circuit breakers in 
your house wiring; just wire everything directly to the incoming 
power. Cheap! Easy! And it works fine, until the first time anything 
anywhere happens to fail shorted. Then it burns your house down.


Now, on the subject of a voltage-sensing controller: This is a simple 
method of shutting off a "dumb" charger for a lead-acid pack. That's 
because voltage is a reasonable indication of state of charge for 
lead-acid. Also, overcharging an old or damaged string of lead-acid 
batteries may cause early cell failures; but they are not likely to be 
spectacular disasters.


For charging lithiums, you really need to know the voltage *and* 
current *and* time to turn off the charger. Voltage alone is not enough.


The normal approach is to have a charger that is smart enough to shut 
off when the voltage and current and time are all "right". It won't 
charge to an excessive voltage; and it will turn itself off if the 
current stays too high for too long (an indication that something is 
wrong). A good charger will also have some form of temperature 
sensing, as the correct conditions are temperature-dependent.


But if the charger is only sensing total voltage, it won't know if 
just one cell fails in the pack. That one cell could go seriously 
over-voltage, or fail shorted. In either case, this can lead to a 
fire. That's why you normally have a BMS. It senses each cell, and can 
stop the charger if something goes wrong.


If you are a cheapskate, and don't believe in BMS, then at the very 
least I would suggest something like my Batt-Bridge 
. It will at least warn 
you that something is wrong *before* the disaster. You can also use 
the light from the Batt-Bridge LEDs to control a relay to shut down 
the charger (if charging) or motor controller (if driving).



___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Re: [EVDL] plusing charger controller / no bms

[Lee Hart via EV]

ken via EV wrote:

My charger is set to be the right voltage but the old cells being 22 in
series string they need to equalized out at the top/end of the charge.
this requires some battery baby sitting,

if your cells are staying very well balanced then your voltage cut off
method/gadjet may be good.

your ebay gadget coud also be be good for those wanting to do a lower
state of  charge, like turn the voltage down   5 volts for a 10% lower top
charge.

I have 2 ev scooters with  22 and 24 lfp cells.


This is a harder problem than you might think. Mistakes can lead to 
expensive failures, and even fires! I have several concerns in this 
discussion:


- Lack of knowledge about the cells being charged:
- Don't know their actual state of balance.
- Don't know the right voltage to charge them to.

- Lack of information on exactly what the charger is doing:
- What voltage and current does it actually charge to?
- What exactly makes it decide the battery is full?
- And, does it really shut off, or keep on "float" charging?

- Human nature: People who are inexperienced tend to:
- Guess.
- Ignore the problem.
- Seek bad advice (that tells them what they want to hear).
- Then go with the cheapest solution.

So, my advice is to learn all you can! Get data sheets for the batteries 
and charger in question. If you can't, make measurements for yourself 
(don't rely on assumptions, or bogus experts on the internet. or 
marketing claims from unknown suppliers).


If you go without a BMS, understand that any minor failure is likely to 
escalate into a *major* failure before you notice it! It's like deciding 
you don't need any expensive fuses or circuit breakers in your house 
wiring; just wire everything directly to the incoming power. Cheap! 
Easy! And it works fine, until the first time anything anywhere happens 
to fail shorted. Then it burns your house down.


Now, on the subject of a voltage-sensing controller: This is a simple 
method of shutting off a "dumb" charger for a lead-acid pack. That's 
because voltage is a reasonable indication of state of charge for 
lead-acid. Also, overcharging an old or damaged string of lead-acid 
batteries may cause early cell failures; but they are not likely to be 
spectacular disasters.


For charging lithiums, you really need to know the voltage *and* current 
*and* time to turn off the charger. Voltage alone is not enough.


The normal approach is to have a charger that is smart enough to shut 
off when the voltage and current and time are all "right". It won't 
charge to an excessive voltage; and it will turn itself off if the 
current stays too high for too long (an indication that something is 
wrong). A good charger will also have some form of temperature sensing, 
as the correct conditions are temperature-dependent.


But if the charger is only sensing total voltage, it won't know if just 
one cell fails in the pack. That one cell could go seriously 
over-voltage, or fail shorted. In either case, this can lead to a fire. 
That's why you normally have a BMS. It senses each cell, and can stop 
the charger if something goes wrong.


If you are a cheapskate, and don't believe in BMS, then at the very 
least I would suggest something like my Batt-Bridge 
. It will at least warn 
you that something is wrong *before* the disaster. You can also use the 
light from the Batt-Bridge LEDs to control a relay to shut down the 
charger (if charging) or motor controller (if driving).


--
Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more
violent. It takes a touch of genius, and a lot of courage, to move
in the opposite direction. -- Albert Einstein
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)