Re: [EVDL] Ohio EV tax reduction

2020-04-03 Thread Jim Walls via EV

On 04/03/2020 22:12, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:

On 3 Apr 2020 at 19:03, Jim Walls via EV wrote:


My truck gets about 12 mpg, so 1,250 gallons or $1,062.50 total of
which $832.50 is state tax.

That's a fair bit, but it seems to me that it might not be all that unfair
or unreasonable.  Your big truck causes a lot more road wear and
environmental damage than a Tesla 3 or Bolt.  Four times as much?  Eight
times?  Now that I couldn't say.


The big difference for road damage is weight.  My truck (most of the 
time) weighs about 20% more than a Tesla model S.  So am I doing 400% 
the road damage?  I doubt it.



I understand from your other message that your work requires off-road
driving ability, and you have to be able to haul a ton of cargo.  Still,
somebody has to pay for the damage your truck does to our world.  You may
not like hearing this, but I think that that has to be either your
responsibility, or your employer's.


Actually it's personal, not work.  Although my work also requires large 
heavy vehicles at times.



It's a darn shame that US vehicle manufacturers can't figure out how to
build heavy duty vehicles that aren't such fuel pigs.  If you lived almost
anywhere else in the world, you could (for example) get a Isuzu D-Max 4WD.
It carries up to 1.4 tons, uses a 1.9 liter Diesel and a 6-speed manual
transmision, and gets 33mpg.  (If you insist on a slushbox, make that
30mpg.)


I can well imagine the performance of a vehicle that can carry 1.4 tons, 
and runs on a 1.9l engine.  Ought to make an original Volkswagon bug 
seem like a speed demon. :)



The Isuzu's nearest US relative is the Chevrolet Colorado.  It hauls only
3/4 ton, has a 2.8 liter diesel, comes only with an automatic transmission,
and gets 22mpg.


Part of that is that dang near no one wants to drive a stick shift 
vehicle anymore.  Another part is vehicle safety.  It's far easier to 
add capability to a vehicle when you don't care if it will protect the 
occupants.  I can't give you any specifics, but how much weight and 
space in that Chevy Colorado is devoted to safety - quite a bit.



Hang in there, though. Eventually maybe someone will build an EV pickup that
will work for you.

Here's an idea.  What if you could sign a contract with a company to provide
you the vehicle you needed day by day?  For daily use you could have a Tesla
or Leaf.  If you needed to get lumber, you could drive to the vehicle depot
and swap ithe Tesla for a pickup for the weekend.  For vacations you could
trade it for a minivan or crossover.  You'd pay for each by mileage.


Nice idea - not gonna work.  It took a month to equip my truck with 
power, radios, lights, and a few other things.  No rental organization 
would let you drill dozens of holes, run conduit, mount radios and other 
equipment in a rental vehicle.  Can't generally do it on a lease either.


Now what I can, and have done is to rent a more suitable vehicle for 
more traditional purposes.  For example, a few years ago I needed to 
drive solo from the Los Angeles area to Tucson, AZ and back for a long 
weekend (about 1,000 miles).  Enterprise Rent-a-car was happy to rent me 
a car that was far more suited for the purpose.  The rental contract and 
gas for the rental cost me less than just gas would have been for my 
truck - not to mention the other costs related to driving my truck 1,000 
miles.


And BTW, I do like driving a stick shift (except in stop and go rush 
hour traffic).


--
73
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j...@k6ccc.org
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Re: [EVDL] Ohio EV tax reduction

2020-04-03 Thread Paul Compton via EV
The rule of thumb is that damage to the road structure goes up in
proportion to the square of the axle load.

On Sat, 4 Apr 2020 at 06:12, EVDL Administrator via EV
 wrote:
>
> On 3 Apr 2020 at 19:03, Jim Walls via EV wrote:
>
> > My truck gets about 12 mpg, so 1,250 gallons or $1,062.50 total of
> > which $832.50 is state tax.
>
> That's a fair bit, but it seems to me that it might not be all that unfair
> or unreasonable.  Your big truck causes a lot more road wear and
> environmental damage than a Tesla 3 or Bolt.  Four times as much?  Eight
> times?  Now that I couldn't say.
>
> I understand from your other message that your work requires off-road
> driving ability, and you have to be able to haul a ton of cargo.  Still,
> somebody has to pay for the damage your truck does to our world.  You may
> not like hearing this, but I think that that has to be either your
> responsibility, or your employer's.
>
> It's a darn shame that US vehicle manufacturers can't figure out how to
> build heavy duty vehicles that aren't such fuel pigs.  If you lived almost
> anywhere else in the world, you could (for example) get a Isuzu D-Max 4WD.
> It carries up to 1.4 tons, uses a 1.9 liter Diesel and a 6-speed manual
> transmision, and gets 33mpg.  (If you insist on a slushbox, make that
> 30mpg.)
>
> The Isuzu's nearest US relative is the Chevrolet Colorado.  It hauls only
> 3/4 ton, has a 2.8 liter diesel, comes only with an automatic transmission,
> and gets 22mpg.
>
> Hang in there, though. Eventually maybe someone will build an EV pickup that
> will work for you.
>
> > Personally if I won the PowerBall, I would have a Tesla model S and
> > largely just use the truck for times when I needed it.  I would also
> > have a larger house with enough parking space in order to have
> > someplace to put it.
>
> Here's an idea.  What if you could sign a contract with a company to provide
> you the vehicle you needed day by day?  For daily use you could have a Tesla
> or Leaf.  If you needed to get lumber, you could drive to the vehicle depot
> and swap ithe Tesla for a pickup for the weekend.  For vacations you could
> trade it for a minivan or crossover.  You'd pay for each by mileage.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
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> reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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Re: [EVDL] Ohio EV tax reduction

2020-04-03 Thread EVDL Administrator via EV
On 3 Apr 2020 at 19:03, Jim Walls via EV wrote:

> My truck gets about 12 mpg, so 1,250 gallons or $1,062.50 total of
> which $832.50 is state tax. 

That's a fair bit, but it seems to me that it might not be all that unfair 
or unreasonable.  Your big truck causes a lot more road wear and 
environmental damage than a Tesla 3 or Bolt.  Four times as much?  Eight 
times?  Now that I couldn't say.

I understand from your other message that your work requires off-road 
driving ability, and you have to be able to haul a ton of cargo.  Still, 
somebody has to pay for the damage your truck does to our world.  You may 
not like hearing this, but I think that that has to be either your 
responsibility, or your employer's.

It's a darn shame that US vehicle manufacturers can't figure out how to 
build heavy duty vehicles that aren't such fuel pigs.  If you lived almost 
anywhere else in the world, you could (for example) get a Isuzu D-Max 4WD.  
It carries up to 1.4 tons, uses a 1.9 liter Diesel and a 6-speed manual 
transmision, and gets 33mpg.  (If you insist on a slushbox, make that 
30mpg.)

The Isuzu's nearest US relative is the Chevrolet Colorado.  It hauls only 
3/4 ton, has a 2.8 liter diesel, comes only with an automatic transmission, 
and gets 22mpg.

Hang in there, though. Eventually maybe someone will build an EV pickup that 
will work for you.

> Personally if I won the PowerBall, I would have a Tesla model S and
> largely just use the truck for times when I needed it.  I would also
> have a larger house with enough parking space in order to have
> someplace to put it. 

Here's an idea.  What if you could sign a contract with a company to provide 
you the vehicle you needed day by day?  For daily use you could have a Tesla 
or Leaf.  If you needed to get lumber, you could drive to the vehicle depot 
and swap ithe Tesla for a pickup for the weekend.  For vacations you could 
trade it for a minivan or crossover.  You'd pay for each by mileage.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Ohio EV tax reduction

2020-04-03 Thread Jim Walls via EV

On 04/03/2020 20:32, Peri Hartman wrote:
Hmm. 15000 miles at 12mpg. That's 1250 gallons. At nominally $3/gal, 
that's 3750. On gasoline cost alone, 10 years would buy you a nice EV 
- model 3 or Bolt, for example. Ok, I'm not being quite fair since you 
do have to pay for electricity. But you also would have less 
maintenance. You know the arguments, of course :)


A little tough to drop a ton or so into the back of a bolt and drive 
miles up a crappy dirt road (4WD required).  I have a heavy duty 4X4 
truck for a reason - and it's not to show off.  Personally if I won the 
PowerBall, I would have a Tesla model S and largely just use the truck 
for times when I needed it.  I would also have a larger house with 
enough parking space in order to have someplace to put it.


--
73
-
Jim Walls - K6CCC
j...@k6ccc.org
Ofc:  818-548-4804
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AMSAT Member 32537 - WSWSS Member 395

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Re: [EVDL] Ohio EV tax reduction

2020-04-03 Thread Peri Hartman via EV
Hmm. 15000 miles at 12mpg. That's 1250 gallons. At nominally $3/gal, 
that's 3750. On gasoline cost alone, 10 years would buy you a nice EV - 
model 3 or Bolt, for example. Ok, I'm not being quite fair since you do 
have to pay for electricity. But you also would have less maintenance. 
You know the arguments, of course :)


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Jim Walls via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: "Jim Walls" 
Sent: 03-Apr-20 7:03:03 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Ohio EV tax reduction


Trying this one again.  Sent it this morning, but just got a failure message...


On 04/03/2020 09:29, paul dove wrote:

Well then . highest in the country it $58.7 a gallon.

6000 miles divided by 30 mpg is 200 gallons at 59 cents that's $116



Let's try the correct numbers.  California currently has 61.2 cents per gallon 
+ 18.4 federal + state sales tax.  Total is about 85 cents per gallon 
(depending a little on price of the gas since sales tax varies by gas price).  
She gets about 20 mpg (OK, she does NOT drive efficiently and it's almost 
exclusively around town), so 300 gallons per year or about $255 per year.  
However since we're only talking about the state tax portion, it's almost 
exactly $200.  And yes my original statement about my wife and her car was 
based on the total gas tax not just the state gas tax.

I on the other hand drive about 15,000 miles per year.  That would be far 
higher if I did not take public transportation to work whenever my schedule 
allowed.  My truck gets about 12 mpg, so 1,250 gallons or $1,062.50 total of 
which $832.50 is state tax.

As I said, I WISH I was only paying $200 per year in state gas tax.

-- 73
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j...@k6ccc.org
Ofc:  818-548-4804
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Re: [EVDL] Ohio EV tax reduction

2020-04-03 Thread Jim Walls via EV
Trying this one again.  Sent it this morning, but just got a failure 
message...



On 04/03/2020 09:29, paul dove wrote:

Well then . highest in the country it $58.7 a gallon.

6000 miles divided by 30 mpg is 200 gallons at 59 cents that's $116



Let's try the correct numbers.  California currently has 61.2 cents per 
gallon + 18.4 federal + state sales tax.  Total is about 85 cents per 
gallon (depending a little on price of the gas since sales tax varies by 
gas price).  She gets about 20 mpg (OK, she does NOT drive efficiently 
and it's almost exclusively around town), so 300 gallons per year or 
about $255 per year.  However since we're only talking about the state 
tax portion, it's almost exactly $200.  And yes my original statement 
about my wife and her car was based on the total gas tax not just the 
state gas tax.


I on the other hand drive about 15,000 miles per year.  That would be 
far higher if I did not take public transportation to work whenever my 
schedule allowed.  My truck gets about 12 mpg, so 1,250 gallons or 
$1,062.50 total of which $832.50 is state tax.


As I said, I WISH I was only paying $200 per year in state gas tax.

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j...@k6ccc.org
Ofc:  818-548-4804
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Re: [EVDL] Ohio EV tax reduction

2020-04-03 Thread paul dove via EV
 That's the only point of the tax. and he made the claim of 6000 miles not me

On Friday, April 3, 2020, 2:47:11 PM CDT, EVDL Administrator via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 On 3 Apr 2020 at 16:29, paul dove via EV wrote:

> 6000 miles divided by 30 mpg is 200 gallons at 59 cents that's $116

How many people do you know who drive only 6000 miles per year?

> Gasoline tax is used to maintain roadways not clean the air. 

That's beside the point.  EVs benefit society.  Governments should encourage 
people to buy and use them by offering them tax breaks, no matter what tax 
it is.  

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Ohio EV tax reduction

2020-04-03 Thread EVDL Administrator via EV
On 3 Apr 2020 at 16:29, paul dove via EV wrote:

> 6000 miles divided by 30 mpg is 200 gallons at 59 cents that's $116

How many people do you know who drive only 6000 miles per year?

> Gasoline tax is used to maintain roadways not clean the air. 

That's beside the point.  EVs benefit society.  Governments should encourage 
people to buy and use them by offering them tax breaks, no matter what tax 
it is.  

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Ohio EV tax reduction

2020-04-03 Thread paul dove via EV
 Gasoline tax is used to maintain roadways not clean the air.

On Friday, April 3, 2020, 12:05:42 PM CDT, EVDL Administrator via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 On 3 Apr 2020 at 9:23, Jim Walls via EV wrote:

> I WISH I only paid $200 per year in gas tax!  I pay that much in gas 
> taxes every couple months.

Ohio gasoline tax is $.355 per gallon.  If you drive 15000 mi/yr at 30mpg, 
that's 500 gallons or $192.50 per year.  

BUT EV drivers SHOULD pay less - or nothing - because they pollute the air 
less, and therefore cause less cost to the public.

Most European nations waive or drastically reduce the yearly fees and taxes 
on EVs for that reason.  I don't know of any that try to collect an 
equivalent to fuel taxes.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Ohio EV tax reduction

2020-04-03 Thread paul dove via EV
 Well then . highest in the country it $58.7 a gallon.
6000 miles divided by 30 mpg is 200 gallons at 59 cents that's $116

On Friday, April 3, 2020, 11:24:06 AM CDT, Jim Walls via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 On 04/03/2020 08:53, Rod Hower via EV wrote:
> Ohio is one of several US states that impose taxes on EVs that are far higher 
> than the amount paid in gas taxes by a typical driver of a legacy vehicle. A 
> recently introduced bill aims to change that.
>
> Ohio’s current EV tax, which was enacted in 2019, imposes anannual fee of 
> $200 on electric drivers. The new bill (HB546) would reduce the feeto $100 
> for EVs and $50 for PHEVs.
>
> According to a recent analysis from ConsumerReports, Ohio’s existing EV tax 
> is considerably higher than the annual gastax for a typical new gas-burning 
> car.

I WISH I only paid $200 per year in gas tax!  I pay that much in gas 
taxes every couple months.  Even my wife who only drives about 6,000 
miles per year in a Toyota Corolla pays more than $200 per year in gas 
tax.  OK, it does not help that we live in the state with the highest 
state gas tax in the country.

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Re: [EVDL] Ohio EV tax reduction

2020-04-03 Thread EVDL Administrator via EV
On 3 Apr 2020 at 9:23, Jim Walls via EV wrote:

> I WISH I only paid $200 per year in gas tax!  I pay that much in gas 
> taxes every couple months.

Ohio gasoline tax is $.355 per gallon.  If you drive 15000 mi/yr at 30mpg, 
that's 500 gallons or $192.50 per year.  

BUT EV drivers SHOULD pay less - or nothing - because they pollute the air 
less, and therefore cause less cost to the public.

Most European nations waive or drastically reduce the yearly fees and taxes 
on EVs for that reason.  I don't know of any that try to collect an 
equivalent to fuel taxes.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not 
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email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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Re: [EVDL] Ohio EV tax reduction

2020-04-03 Thread Jim Walls via EV

On 04/03/2020 08:53, Rod Hower via EV wrote:

Ohio is one of several US states that impose taxes on EVs that are far higher 
than the amount paid in gas taxes by a typical driver of a legacy vehicle. A 
recently introduced bill aims to change that.

Ohio’s current EV tax, which was enacted in 2019, imposes anannual fee of $200 
on electric drivers. The new bill (HB546) would reduce the feeto $100 for EVs 
and $50 for PHEVs.

According to a recent analysis from ConsumerReports, Ohio’s existing EV tax is 
considerably higher than the annual gastax for a typical new gas-burning car.


I WISH I only paid $200 per year in gas tax!  I pay that much in gas 
taxes every couple months.  Even my wife who only drives about 6,000 
miles per year in a Toyota Corolla pays more than $200 per year in gas 
tax.  OK, it does not help that we live in the state with the highest 
state gas tax in the country.


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Jim Walls - K6CCC
j...@k6ccc.org
Ofc:  818-548-4804
http://members.dslextreme.com/users/k6ccc/
AMSAT Member 32537 - WSWSS Member 395

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[EVDL] Ohio EV tax reduction

2020-04-03 Thread Rod Hower via EV

Ohio is one of several US states that impose taxes on EVs that are far higher 
than the amount paid in gas taxes by a typical driver of a legacy vehicle. A 
recently introduced bill aims to change that.

Ohio’s current EV tax, which was enacted in 2019, imposes anannual fee of $200 
on electric drivers. The new bill (HB546) would reduce the feeto $100 for EVs 
and $50 for PHEVs.

According to a recent analysis from ConsumerReports, Ohio’s existing EV tax is 
considerably higher than the annual gastax for a typical new gas-burning car.

Ohio’s punitive fee is particularly ironic considering thatthe state is 
counting on a growing EV industry to replace jobs lost when amajor GM plant in 
Lordstownclosed in 2019.

“The tax is terrible policy in a state like Ohio, which is looking to EV 
manufacturing and associated battery and auto supply industries to create the 
skilled, middle-class jobs that our state sorely needs,” wrote the NRDC’s Mark 
Nabong. “Our focus ought to be on how we can help Ohio startups like Workhorse 
Trucks and Lordstown Motors become the next Tesla and to ensure that our state 
is the kind of place that companies like GM, BASF and Dana want to grow their 
EV businesses.”



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