Re: [EVDL] Danger to public? (was: H2 tank expiration (was OT: fuel cell mining truck)
Thank you, Bill, for making this crystal clear ! << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >> -- Original Message -- From: "Bill Dube via EV" To: ev@lists.evdl.org Cc: "Bill Dube" Sent: 10-Sep-21 19:04:37 Subject: [EVDL] Danger to public? (was: H2 tank expiration (was OT: fuel cell mining truck) "Fatigue" is the answer to your question. When you repeatedly stress materials, minute flaws grow and result in failures. Filling and emptying the pressure vessel results in a fatigue cycle, and will eventually result in failure of a highly stressed part. You can bend a coat hanger in half and it is fine, but you can't bend it repeatedly, as it will break. In the case of a pressure vessel, a failure can easily result in catastrophe. Thus, periodic inspection is required, and retirement of cylinders is required if large flaws are detected. All sorts of "life safety" items are subjected to mandatory periodic inspection and sometimes replacement at "end of predicted life" due to fatigue. For example, on airplanes, you can only fly so many hours before you must replace the wing spars (main beams in the wings) on specific airplanes. The cost will take your breath away, (millions per airplane) but it is often less expensive than buying a new airplane. The aim is to replace the "worn" part before it fails, instead of having it simply fail. Having the wing part ways with an airplane in flight is the definition of a "life safety" type event. Same as having a pressure vessel burst, especially one at high pressure full of H2. As they say "Safety regulations are written in blood". Bill D. On 9/11/2021 10:01 AM, Peter Eckhoff via EV wrote: What happens to Mirai tanks that have been refueled 300K to 500K without a tank change? Do they pose a danger to the general driving public? Today, as an aside, I drove my Model 3 90 miles at 65 mph with the equivalent of 3 adults in the car, AC running, and averaged over 5 miles per kwh. I was impressed since a Bolt I had owned averaged about 3.9 miles/kwh under similar conditions. On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 5:48 PM EVDL Administrator via EV wrote: On 10 Sep 2021 at 13:28, Bill Dube via EV wrote: This replacement cost is another "nail in the coffin" of H2 fuel cell vehicles. The cost of a battery replacement is less than the cost of _mandatory_ H2 cylinder replacement. Is it mandatory, though? It seems to be nothing more than a label inside the fuel filler door with a date and a finger-wagging advisory, "Vehicles with expired hydrogen tanks must not be driven or refueled until the hydrogen tanks are replaced." It seems as if everything is chipped and networked in cars these days. You'd think that Toyota could have the body computer query the tanks, "Hey, you guys expired yet?" before starting up, and refuse to go if they're past their use-by dates. At least it could flip on a yellow warning light or "service hydrogen tanks soon" message on the cabin display. If the manual mentions that as a possible situation, I missed it. Do FCVs require smog inspection? Would expired H2 tanks keep them from being certified? I don't have a clue. Without any consequences, the owner could just ignore the warning label, and carry on with filling and driving the car. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = I found one day in school a boy of medium size ill-treating a smaller boy. I expostulated, but he replied: "The bigs hit me, so I hit the babies; that's fair." In these words he epitomized the history of the human race. -- Bertrand Russell, "Education and the Social Order" = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/
Re: [EVDL] H2 tank expiration (was OT: fuel cell mining truck)
This is probably what will occur. Like filling your propane bottle. The attendant will check to see if it is in date, and reject it if it has expired. I can't see the dealership turning down the opportunity to "service" your fuel cell car. Bill D. On 9/11/2021 10:48 AM, John Lussmyer via EV wrote: On Fri Sep 10 07:52:03 PDT 2021 ev@lists.evdl.org said: On 10 Sep 2021 at 13:28, Bill Dube via EV wrote: Is it mandatory, though? It seems to be nothing more than a label inside the fuel filler door with a date and a finger-wagging advisory, "Vehicles with expired hydrogen tanks must not be driven or refueled until the hydrogen tanks are replaced." Since you can only refuel at special stations with specially trained attendants - seems like it would be mandatory as the attendant would probably get fired if he refilled it. -- Tigers prowl and Dragons soar in my dreams... ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
[EVDL] Danger to public? (was: H2 tank expiration (was OT: fuel cell mining truck)
"Fatigue" is the answer to your question. When you repeatedly stress materials, minute flaws grow and result in failures. Filling and emptying the pressure vessel results in a fatigue cycle, and will eventually result in failure of a highly stressed part. You can bend a coat hanger in half and it is fine, but you can't bend it repeatedly, as it will break. In the case of a pressure vessel, a failure can easily result in catastrophe. Thus, periodic inspection is required, and retirement of cylinders is required if large flaws are detected. All sorts of "life safety" items are subjected to mandatory periodic inspection and sometimes replacement at "end of predicted life" due to fatigue. For example, on airplanes, you can only fly so many hours before you must replace the wing spars (main beams in the wings) on specific airplanes. The cost will take your breath away, (millions per airplane) but it is often less expensive than buying a new airplane. The aim is to replace the "worn" part before it fails, instead of having it simply fail. Having the wing part ways with an airplane in flight is the definition of a "life safety" type event. Same as having a pressure vessel burst, especially one at high pressure full of H2. As they say "Safety regulations are written in blood". Bill D. On 9/11/2021 10:01 AM, Peter Eckhoff via EV wrote: What happens to Mirai tanks that have been refueled 300K to 500K without a tank change? Do they pose a danger to the general driving public? Today, as an aside, I drove my Model 3 90 miles at 65 mph with the equivalent of 3 adults in the car, AC running, and averaged over 5 miles per kwh. I was impressed since a Bolt I had owned averaged about 3.9 miles/kwh under similar conditions. On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 5:48 PM EVDL Administrator via EV wrote: On 10 Sep 2021 at 13:28, Bill Dube via EV wrote: This replacement cost is another "nail in the coffin" of H2 fuel cell vehicles. The cost of a battery replacement is less than the cost of _mandatory_ H2 cylinder replacement. Is it mandatory, though? It seems to be nothing more than a label inside the fuel filler door with a date and a finger-wagging advisory, "Vehicles with expired hydrogen tanks must not be driven or refueled until the hydrogen tanks are replaced." It seems as if everything is chipped and networked in cars these days. You'd think that Toyota could have the body computer query the tanks, "Hey, you guys expired yet?" before starting up, and refuse to go if they're past their use-by dates. At least it could flip on a yellow warning light or "service hydrogen tanks soon" message on the cabin display. If the manual mentions that as a possible situation, I missed it. Do FCVs require smog inspection? Would expired H2 tanks keep them from being certified? I don't have a clue. Without any consequences, the owner could just ignore the warning label, and carry on with filling and driving the car. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = I found one day in school a boy of medium size ill-treating a smaller boy. I expostulated, but he replied: "The bigs hit me, so I hit the babies; that's fair." In these words he epitomized the history of the human race. -- Bertrand Russell, "Education and the Social Order" = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] Stella Vita. Solar Home on Wheels. SHOW
I've always thought RV's were expensive and a waste of money. This design looks like a retirement vehicle I could fully embrace for traveling! On Friday, September 10, 2021, 01:59:17 PM EDT, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote: https://solarteameindhoven.nl/article?presenting-our-newest-solar-vehicle-stella-vita The engineering students of Eindhoven are not sitting on their laurels. Another genius engineering design. Bravo. Lawrence Rhodes -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20210910/dc38f380/attachment.html> ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20210911/2cd6705f/attachment.html> ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] H2 tank expiration (was OT: fuel cell mining truck)
On Fri Sep 10 07:52:03 PDT 2021 ev@lists.evdl.org said: >On 10 Sep 2021 at 13:28, Bill Dube via EV wrote: >Is it mandatory, though? It seems to be nothing more than a label inside >the fuel filler door with a date and a finger-wagging advisory, "Vehicles >with expired hydrogen tanks must not be driven or refueled until the >hydrogen tanks are replaced." Since you can only refuel at special stations with specially trained attendants - seems like it would be mandatory as the attendant would probably get fired if he refilled it. -- Tigers prowl and Dragons soar in my dreams... ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] H2 tank expiration (was OT: fuel cell mining truck)
What happens to Mirai tanks that have been refueled 300K to 500K without a tank change? Do they pose a danger to the general driving public? Today, as an aside, I drove my Model 3 90 miles at 65 mph with the equivalent of 3 adults in the car, AC running, and averaged over 5 miles per kwh. I was impressed since a Bolt I had owned averaged about 3.9 miles/kwh under similar conditions. On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 5:48 PM EVDL Administrator via EV wrote: > > On 10 Sep 2021 at 13:28, Bill Dube via EV wrote: > > > This replacement cost is another "nail in the coffin" of H2 fuel cell > > vehicles. The cost of a battery replacement is less than the cost of > > _mandatory_ H2 cylinder replacement. > > Is it mandatory, though? It seems to be nothing more than a label inside > the fuel filler door with a date and a finger-wagging advisory, "Vehicles > with expired hydrogen tanks must not be driven or refueled until the > hydrogen tanks are replaced." > > It seems as if everything is chipped and networked in cars these days. > You'd think that Toyota could have the body computer query the tanks, "Hey, > you guys expired yet?" before starting up, and refuse to go if they're past > their use-by dates. At least it could flip on a yellow warning light or > "service hydrogen tanks soon" message on the cabin display. If the manual > mentions that as a possible situation, I missed it. > > Do FCVs require smog inspection? Would expired H2 tanks keep them from > being certified? I don't have a clue. > > Without any consequences, the owner could just ignore the warning label, and > carry on with filling and driving the car. > > David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey > > To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my > offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > I found one day in school a boy of medium size ill-treating > a smaller boy. I expostulated, but he replied: "The bigs hit > me, so I hit the babies; that's fair." In these words he > epitomized the history of the human race. > > -- Bertrand Russell, "Education and the Social Order" > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > > ___ > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org > No other addresses in TO and CC fields > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ > LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] "H2 is lighter" (Was OT: fuel cell mining truck)
Also, H2 is VERY good at escaping things. The atoms are so small. So while this means it's hard to build a perfect containment system for it, it also means that if you only have a very small leakit's hard to build up in a normal (not passive house level of sealing) building, as it can escape the building just about as good as it can escape tanks/pipes/fittings, etc... Not saying it's safe...just that very small leaks probably are not enough to "build up" anywhere. You would need the combination of a decent sized leak with an well sealed "peak" and an ignition source. Jay On 9/10/21 10:52 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote: On 10 Sep 2021 at 5:04, Peri Hartman via EV wrote: Maybe the Mirai tank system is really tight. Otherwise, I'm really curious: why haven't there been any reported H2 explosions ? Could it be partly because they've sold only about 8,500 of them since 2015? Low sales volume means fewer opportunities for faults to develop. It would also be interesting to know how many of those sales were to fleets where the vehicles tend to be parked outside in open lots, and not in residential garages. ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] H2 tank expiration (was OT: fuel cell mining truck)
On 10 Sep 2021 at 13:28, Bill Dube via EV wrote: > This replacement cost is another "nail in the coffin" of H2 fuel cell > vehicles. The cost of a battery replacement is less than the cost of > _mandatory_ H2 cylinder replacement. Is it mandatory, though? It seems to be nothing more than a label inside the fuel filler door with a date and a finger-wagging advisory, "Vehicles with expired hydrogen tanks must not be driven or refueled until the hydrogen tanks are replaced." It seems as if everything is chipped and networked in cars these days. You'd think that Toyota could have the body computer query the tanks, "Hey, you guys expired yet?" before starting up, and refuse to go if they're past their use-by dates. At least it could flip on a yellow warning light or "service hydrogen tanks soon" message on the cabin display. If the manual mentions that as a possible situation, I missed it. Do FCVs require smog inspection? Would expired H2 tanks keep them from being certified? I don't have a clue. Without any consequences, the owner could just ignore the warning label, and carry on with filling and driving the car. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = I found one day in school a boy of medium size ill-treating a smaller boy. I expostulated, but he replied: "The bigs hit me, so I hit the babies; that's fair." In these words he epitomized the history of the human race. -- Bertrand Russell, "Education and the Social Order" = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] "H2 is lighter" (Was OT: fuel cell mining truck)
On 9/10/21 10:52 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote: On 10 Sep 2021 at 5:04, Peri Hartman via EV wrote: Maybe the Mirai tank system is really tight. Otherwise, I'm really curious: why haven't there been any reported H2 explosions ? Could it be partly because they've sold only about 8,500 of them since 2015? Low sales volume means fewer opportunities for faults to develop. Put another way, they have data to detect a 1/1000 or 1/1 risk over very few years. Compare to risk of BEV battery fire. WAG: 1/10 over about five years. Or the risk of using Tesla AutoPilot which makes the car around 10 times as safe as a car not using AP. ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] [GGEVA] Stella Vita. Solar Home on Wheels. SHOW
Four cars in 7 years ( Stella, Stella Lux, Stella Vie and Stella Era). All winning the Cruiser Class of the World Solar Challenge across Australia. Since the challenge was cancelled they switched it up and made an RV and will tour Europe. I like the slide out solar system. Lawrence Rhodes On Friday, September 10, 2021, 11:31:33 AM PDT, Jason Jungreis > wrote: Don't know about their laurels, but this is a pretty clever bit of packaging, On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 10:59 AM Lawrence Rhodes wrote: https://solarteameindhoven.nl/article?presenting-our-newest-solar-vehicle-stella-vita The engineering students of Eindhoven are not sitting on their laurels. Another genius engineering design. Bravo. Lawrence Rhodes _._,_._,_ Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent to this group. View/Reply Online (#765) | Reply To Group | Reply To Sender | Mute This Topic | New Topic Your Subscription | Contact Group Owner _._,_._,_ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20210910/43001bc0/attachment.html> ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
[EVDL] Stella Vita. Solar Home on Wheels. SHOW
https://solarteameindhoven.nl/article?presenting-our-newest-solar-vehicle-stella-vita The engineering students of Eindhoven are not sitting on their laurels. Another genius engineering design. Bravo. Lawrence Rhodes -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20210910/dc38f380/attachment.html> ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] "H2 is lighter" (Was OT: fuel cell mining truck)
On 10 Sep 2021 at 5:04, Peri Hartman via EV wrote: > Maybe the Mirai tank system is really tight. Otherwise, I'm really > curious: why haven't there been any reported H2 explosions ? Could it be partly because they've sold only about 8,500 of them since 2015? Low sales volume means fewer opportunities for faults to develop. It would also be interesting to know how many of those sales were to fleets where the vehicles tend to be parked outside in open lots, and not in residential garages. ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] "H2 is lighter" (Was OT: fuel cell mining truck)
> On Sep 10, 2021, at 3:05 PM, Willie via EV wrote: > Perhaps it escapes earth's gravity? Not possible without accelerating it to 11.2km/sec. And doing that does indeed create a lot of environmental problems. -Bill -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 833 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20210910/e3c73c79/attachment.sig> ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] "H2 is lighter" (Was OT: fuel cell mining truck)
Thank you Bill for all your expertise on this subject. I came across this Youtube video demonstrating how to use the Mirai’s Homelink controls to open a garage door: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7XjqEaWExY The last few seconds show a Mirai opening the garage; assuming to park the car in the garage and close the door. However, I looked at several other videos of the same generic format and **NONE** of them show a Mirai entering or leaving a garage. In one case, there is a car already parked there and it has a spoiler on its trunk. I'm wondering if they are hedging their bets?? For instance, in building apartments, there are standards with regard to fire retardant treated wood products. It makes a big difference in time on whether the fire retardant is "painted" on or it is infused into the lumber. The companies that paint it on are always trying to loosen the standards thus giving people less time to evacuate their apartment in the event of a fire. The infused products are more expensive. So there is an economic incentive to loosen and game the standards. From what you are implying, if sheltering a Mirai in a closed garage goes against hydrogen safety standards, this might be an attempt to provide the impression of normalcy without a Mirai actually entering a garage thereby actually violating the standards (and subsequent lawsuits, if something goes wrong). However, is there such a standard against garaging HFCEVs or are they too new for a standard to have been developed? On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 7:59 AM Bill Dube via EV wrote: > > There is no doubt that the H2 systems, including the tank, are > thoroughly leak checked. H2 is straightforward to detect in minute > quantities. > > However, the world is an imperfect place. Screws fall out. Leaks occur. > > I am surprised that they omit advising against parking indoors in the > owner's manual. > > Bill D. > > On 9/10/2021 5:04 PM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote: > > I suspect it's far worse than that. H2 will pool against the ceiling > > but it will probably leak through pretty quickly and fill up the joist > > cavity, and then the ceiling of the floor above, and so on. > > > > Maybe the Mirai tank system is really tight. Otherwise, I'm really > > curious: why haven't there been any reported H2 explosions ? > > > > Peri > > > > << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >> > > > > -- Original Message -- > > From: "Bill Dube via EV" > > To: ev@lists.evdl.org > > Cc: "Bill Dube" > > Sent: 09-Sep-21 20:00:22 > > Subject: [EVDL] "H2 is lighter" (Was OT: fuel cell mining truck) > > > >> Indeed, H2 is very buoyant in air and rises extremely quickly. > >> > >> However, this means that it collects and concentrates at the high > >> points of the ceiling in an enclosed space. Typically, the garage > >> door opener is also in that space, as well as light fixtures, etc. > >> The garage door opener has relays with contacts. Older fluorescent > >> lights also have contacts in the small starter. There are all sorts > >> of ignition sources at or near the ceiling where the H2 will > >> concentrate. > >> > >> Thus, garaging a H2 fuel cell vehicle is against the regulations, for > >> a multitude of reasons. > >> > >> Having worked with liquid hydrogen in a hydrogen safe building for > >> many years, I am acutely aware of the hazards it presents and the > >> measures one must take to reduce the risk of those very real hazards. > >> > >> Bill D. > >> > >>> 3.) With regard to garaging, I was reading a while back that the > >>> _hydrogen is so light that it would float and disperse_ readily > >>> generating the idea a HFCEV could be garaged. If I find the article I > >>> will post it but the comments you found in a passage about getting it > >>> out and into a well-ventilated space makes me want to find an > >>> authoritative source. It may be the difference between a slow leak > >>> and something faster. > >> > >> -- next part -- > >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > >> URL: > >> <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20210910/83dc1fe0/attachment.html> > >> ___ > >> Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org > >> No other addresses in TO and CC fields > >> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > >> ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ > >> LIST INFO: http://lis
Re: [EVDL] "H2 is lighter" (Was OT: fuel cell mining truck)
On 9/10/21 7:31 AM, Bill Dube via EV wrote: There is no doubt that the H2 systems, including the tank, are thoroughly leak checked. H2 is straightforward to detect in minute quantities. However, the world is an imperfect place. Screws fall out. Leaks occur. I am surprised that they omit advising against parking indoors in the owner's manual. Another line of thought: With perhaps increasing fool cell adoption, might escaped hydrogen become a problem with the atmosphere? Perhaps it gets oxidized and returns to earth as water? No apparent problem there. Perhaps it escapes earth's gravity? If so, it would result in a net reduction of water on earth. Perhaps a worrisome problem? ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] "H2 is lighter" (Was OT: fuel cell mining truck)
There is no doubt that the H2 systems, including the tank, are thoroughly leak checked. H2 is straightforward to detect in minute quantities. However, the world is an imperfect place. Screws fall out. Leaks occur. I am surprised that they omit advising against parking indoors in the owner's manual. Bill D. On 9/10/2021 5:04 PM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote: I suspect it's far worse than that. H2 will pool against the ceiling but it will probably leak through pretty quickly and fill up the joist cavity, and then the ceiling of the floor above, and so on. Maybe the Mirai tank system is really tight. Otherwise, I'm really curious: why haven't there been any reported H2 explosions ? Peri << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >> -- Original Message -- From: "Bill Dube via EV" To: ev@lists.evdl.org Cc: "Bill Dube" Sent: 09-Sep-21 20:00:22 Subject: [EVDL] "H2 is lighter" (Was OT: fuel cell mining truck) Indeed, H2 is very buoyant in air and rises extremely quickly. However, this means that it collects and concentrates at the high points of the ceiling in an enclosed space. Typically, the garage door opener is also in that space, as well as light fixtures, etc. The garage door opener has relays with contacts. Older fluorescent lights also have contacts in the small starter. There are all sorts of ignition sources at or near the ceiling where the H2 will concentrate. Thus, garaging a H2 fuel cell vehicle is against the regulations, for a multitude of reasons. Having worked with liquid hydrogen in a hydrogen safe building for many years, I am acutely aware of the hazards it presents and the measures one must take to reduce the risk of those very real hazards. Bill D. 3.) With regard to garaging, I was reading a while back that the _hydrogen is so light that it would float and disperse_ readily generating the idea a HFCEV could be garaged. If I find the article I will post it but the comments you found in a passage about getting it out and into a well-ventilated space makes me want to find an authoritative source. It may be the difference between a slow leak and something faster. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20210910/83dc1fe0/attachment.html> ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] "H2 is lighter" (Was OT: fuel cell mining truck)
I suspect it's far worse than that. H2 will pool against the ceiling but it will probably leak through pretty quickly and fill up the joist cavity, and then the ceiling of the floor above, and so on. Maybe the Mirai tank system is really tight. Otherwise, I'm really curious: why haven't there been any reported H2 explosions ? Peri << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >> -- Original Message -- From: "Bill Dube via EV" To: ev@lists.evdl.org Cc: "Bill Dube" Sent: 09-Sep-21 20:00:22 Subject: [EVDL] "H2 is lighter" (Was OT: fuel cell mining truck) Indeed, H2 is very buoyant in air and rises extremely quickly. However, this means that it collects and concentrates at the high points of the ceiling in an enclosed space. Typically, the garage door opener is also in that space, as well as light fixtures, etc. The garage door opener has relays with contacts. Older fluorescent lights also have contacts in the small starter. There are all sorts of ignition sources at or near the ceiling where the H2 will concentrate. Thus, garaging a H2 fuel cell vehicle is against the regulations, for a multitude of reasons. Having worked with liquid hydrogen in a hydrogen safe building for many years, I am acutely aware of the hazards it presents and the measures one must take to reduce the risk of those very real hazards. Bill D. 3.) With regard to garaging, I was reading a while back that the _hydrogen is so light that it would float and disperse_ readily generating the idea a HFCEV could be garaged. If I find the article I will post it but the comments you found in a passage about getting it out and into a well-ventilated space makes me want to find an authoritative source. It may be the difference between a slow leak and something faster. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20210910/83dc1fe0/attachment.html> ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
