Re: [EVDL] EVLN: DC plans (accidental) EV tax
Sorry, but EVs *DO* cause damage to road surfaces and bridges, since EVs are relatively heavy for their size, so they typically are several hundreds of pounds heavier that the comparable sized ICE vehicle, unless the EV maker has *also* paid a lot of attention to the weight. The great benefits of EVs are particularly in absence of vehicle emissions and noise, as well as a diversion of the consumption of fossil fuels to (renewable) electricity, depending on the EV owner's installation of solar with the purchase of the EV or other action towards renewable energy, as well as the energy balance of the local grid, which typically gets cleaner every year unlike ICE vehicles. Reducing the need for fueling stations and the on-road supply network are secondary benefits. These days I see an increasing awareness that the only way to significantly improve our emissions problem is electrification - of our homes as well as transportation. Slapping "avoided gas taxes" on EVs does not help and is certainly a support move to keep the dinosaur alive a few months more, but there simply is no turning back, so those things will pass and I am sure that someone will challenge the excessive level of tax on EVs in some places, since it does not make sense to put avoided taxes as if it were a 15MPG 30,000 mi/y vehicle that is used by the family to cleanly drive around the city for less than 5k mi each year. Anyway, EVs are here to only only stay but proliferate and the oil industry already knows, but hey those are the same guys trying to sell you "clean coal". To go back to the original issue: vehicles do damage the road. I believe it is a 3rd or 4th order function of weight per wheel contact surface, so a 2x heavier vehicle does about 10 times more damage. Now you see that for road maintenance, it would be fair to only charge semis and other vehicles with thousands of pounds per wheel AND a lot of wheels, as typical small passenger vehicles do almost no damage to properly constructed road surfaces. Cor. On Mon, Jun 13, 2022 at 3:20 PM Mr. Sharkey via EV wrote: > > Oh yeah, a stroke of pure genius, that. > > Here in Oregon, EV's are nailed with double registration fees. > Additionally there is a "road fuel tax replacement" fee that > penalizes vehicles based on fuel economy, but not in the way that > you'd expect. Cars that get higher fuel mileage pay MORE in fees, > while those which consume more pay less. I guess the thinking is > that the poor truck and SUV owners are already paying more than their > share by way of gas pump taxes, so have pity on them. Needless to > say, EV's (and hybrids) pay the highest fees, in spite of causing the > least damage to road surfaces, bridges, etc. > > The whole world seems to have lost it's mind in the last few years, > so why not make everything insane, including torpedoing possible > solutions to pollution, climate effects, oil import dependence and common > sense? > > ___ > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org > No other addresses in TO and CC fields > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/sub/index.html > CONFIG: http://lists.evdl.org/options.cgi/ev-evdl.org > ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ > INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/sub/index.html CONFIG: http://lists.evdl.org/options.cgi/ev-evdl.org ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: DC plans (accidental) EV tax
On 13 Jun 2022 at 15:15, Mr. Sharkey via EV wrote: > The whole world seems to have lost it's mind in the last few years, > so why not make everything insane, including torpedoing possible > solutions to pollution, climate effects, oil import dependence and common > sense? Maybe not the entire world yet, and least not on absolutely everything. I hate to always sound so Eurocentric here, but most EU countries have saner vehicle tax policies. The one I'm most familiar with is France's. The situation is quite different from here. You register your vehicle when you buy it and then it's done - no yearly renewal. There's no yearly tax on most private vehicles, either (I think there used to be), but there are rather high fuel taxes. Obviously EVs don't pay fuel taxes. That's a feature, not a bug, unlike in some US states as mentioned by Mr Sharkey. France's base registration fee for a new car is based on the car's "fiscal power," which is computed from rated engine power in kw and CO2 emissions in grams per km. Base registration fees for EVs are zero regardless of drive system power. In addition to the registration fee, purchasers of high CO2 emitters pay a purchase surtax that ranges from 50 euros (128 g/km CO2 WLTP) to 40,000 (!) euros (>= 224 g/km CO2 WLTP). There's a further purchase surtax on vehicles weighing over 1800kg (roughly 4000lb). In case you don't think that legislation makes a difference, let's compare a couple of similar-size fairly large (by EU standards) SUVs - a US Ford Edge and an EU Renault Espace. Ford Edge: weight = 1875kg, power = 184kw, CO2 = 230 g/km Renault Espace: weight 1680kg, power = 166kw, CO2 = 187 g/km The Renault is 10% lighter and emits 19% less CO2. Now how would these compare in costs to register? That's where it gets interesting. (I don't think you can buy a Ford Edge in France, but let's run the numbers anyway, just for fun.) Ford Edge (MSRP $42,745 == ~39,580 euros without duty or freight) fiscal power = 20 - tax rate 41 euro/FP => registration base 820 euros CO2 surcharge 40,000 euros Weight surcharge 750 euros Total registration ~41,570 euros Total cost to acquire 81,150 euros Renault Espace (MSRP: 47,500 euros) fiscal power = 14 - rate 41 eur/FP => registration base 574 euros CO2 surcharge ~11,500 euros Weight surcharge = 0 Total registration ~12,074 euros Total cost to acquire 59,574 euros Now suppose you decide that you can manage with a slightly smaller SUV, so you buy a Volkswagen ID4 EV instead. Volkswagen ID4 (MSRP 39,370 euros) Fiscal power = n/a registration base 0 euros CO2 surcharge = 0 euros Weight surcharge (2050kg) = 2,500 euros Total registration 2,500 euros Total cost to acquire 41,870 euros Summing up the relative costs to buy these 3 SUVs in France (if the Ford were available there): Ford Edge 81,150 euros Renault Espace 59,574 euros VW ID4 EV 41,870 euros David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Just How Bad is Your Job, #13: Philosophy of Life. Two statements follow. Check the one that more closely describes your current outlook. [ ] Misery loves company. [ ] The company loves misery. -- Matt Groening, "Work is Hell" = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/sub/index.html CONFIG: http://lists.evdl.org/options.cgi/ev-evdl.org ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: DC plans (accidental) EV tax
Oh yeah, a stroke of pure genius, that. Here in Oregon, EV's are nailed with double registration fees. Additionally there is a "road fuel tax replacement" fee that penalizes vehicles based on fuel economy, but not in the way that you'd expect. Cars that get higher fuel mileage pay MORE in fees, while those which consume more pay less. I guess the thinking is that the poor truck and SUV owners are already paying more than their share by way of gas pump taxes, so have pity on them. Needless to say, EV's (and hybrids) pay the highest fees, in spite of causing the least damage to road surfaces, bridges, etc. The whole world seems to have lost it's mind in the last few years, so why not make everything insane, including torpedoing possible solutions to pollution, climate effects, oil import dependence and common sense? ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/sub/index.html CONFIG: http://lists.evdl.org/options.cgi/ev-evdl.org ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: DC plans (accidental) EV tax
While batteries are increasing their power density, I’m not convinced that they will lighten. Instead, the choice will be made to increase range. - Mark Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone > On Jun 13, 2022, at 11:30 AM, Jay Summet via EV wrote: > > As an investor in Aptera (which is making lightweight aerodynamic EV's) I > have no problem taxing heavy vehicles, regardless of their mode of propulsion. > > Heavy vehicles cause more wear on the road, are less efficient than light > vehicles, and make the roads less safe for pedestrians, motorcyclists, and > compact car drivers (in collisions). > > At least this tax is fuel type agnostic, unlike some of the EV specific > license taxes that other states have implemented. > > > Jay > >> On 6/13/22 12:44, EV List Lackey via EV wrote: >> Washington DC plans to increase yearly vehicle license fees from $72 to $175 >> for vehicles over 3500lb. Owners of vehicles with weight over 5000lb would >> get hit with $250, and over 6000lb, $500. >> The proposal is aimed at discouraging purchase of big SUVs and pickups, and >> compelling their owners to pay for the heavy vehicles' greater social costs >> (traffic injuries and deaths, road degredation). >> They seem to have forgotten that EV batteries add weight. This will raise >> license fees on almost all production EVs. >> https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-05-26/a-new-way-to-curb-the- >> rise-of-oversized-pickups-and-suvs >> Shortcut: https://v.gd/Umr8Jm >> Mini Cooper SE Electric 3144lb - $72 >> Nissan Leaf 3538lb - $175 >> Tesla 3 SR Plus 3582lb - $175 >> Chevrolet Bolt 3589lb - $175 >> Hyundai Kona Electric 3715lb - $175 >> Kia Niro EV 3854lb - $175 >> Kia EV6 4023lb - $175 >> Ford Mustang Mach E 4394lb - $175 >> VW ID4 4559lb - $175 >> Tesla S LR 4561lb - $175 >> Tesla X LR 5185lb - $250 >> Ford F150 Lightning 6015lb - $500 >> GMC Hummer EV 9046lb - $500 >> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey >> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my >> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt >> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = >> Some people ask, "Why?" Others ask, "Why not?" >> Then later they say, "Oh." >> -- Found on the Net >> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = >> ___ >> Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org >> No other addresses in TO and CC fields >> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/sub/index.html >> CONFIG: http://lists.evdl.org/options.cgi/ev-evdl.org >> ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ >> INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > ___ > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org > No other addresses in TO and CC fields > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/sub/index.html > CONFIG: http://lists.evdl.org/options.cgi/ev-evdl.org > ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ > INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/sub/index.html CONFIG: http://lists.evdl.org/options.cgi/ev-evdl.org ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
[EVDL] Automakers ask Congress to lift electric vehicle tax cap
By Associated Press NEW YORK (AP) — Major automakers are asking Congress to lift the cap on how many people can receive tax credits for buying a hybrid or fully electric vehicle. In a letter to leaders of the Senate and House of Representatives on Monday, the chief executives of Ford, Toyota, GM and Stellantis asked that tax credits be extended to anyone who seeks to buy a qualified vehicle. Currently the number of tax credits allowed are capped at 200,000 per company. General Motors and Tesla have already reached the cap and Toyota is close to it. Automakers want the cap lifted until “the EV market is more mature,” they said, without giving a time frame. ... === Peri << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >> ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/sub/index.html CONFIG: http://lists.evdl.org/options.cgi/ev-evdl.org ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: DC plans (accidental) EV tax
As an investor in Aptera (which is making lightweight aerodynamic EV's) I have no problem taxing heavy vehicles, regardless of their mode of propulsion. Heavy vehicles cause more wear on the road, are less efficient than light vehicles, and make the roads less safe for pedestrians, motorcyclists, and compact car drivers (in collisions). At least this tax is fuel type agnostic, unlike some of the EV specific license taxes that other states have implemented. Jay On 6/13/22 12:44, EV List Lackey via EV wrote: Washington DC plans to increase yearly vehicle license fees from $72 to $175 for vehicles over 3500lb. Owners of vehicles with weight over 5000lb would get hit with $250, and over 6000lb, $500. The proposal is aimed at discouraging purchase of big SUVs and pickups, and compelling their owners to pay for the heavy vehicles' greater social costs (traffic injuries and deaths, road degredation). They seem to have forgotten that EV batteries add weight. This will raise license fees on almost all production EVs. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-05-26/a-new-way-to-curb-the- rise-of-oversized-pickups-and-suvs Shortcut: https://v.gd/Umr8Jm Mini Cooper SE Electric 3144lb - $72 Nissan Leaf 3538lb - $175 Tesla 3 SR Plus 3582lb - $175 Chevrolet Bolt 3589lb - $175 Hyundai Kona Electric 3715lb - $175 Kia Niro EV 3854lb - $175 Kia EV6 4023lb - $175 Ford Mustang Mach E 4394lb - $175 VW ID4 4559lb - $175 Tesla S LR 4561lb - $175 Tesla X LR 5185lb - $250 Ford F150 Lightning 6015lb - $500 GMC Hummer EV 9046lb - $500 David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Some people ask, "Why?" Others ask, "Why not?" Then later they say, "Oh." -- Found on the Net = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/sub/index.html CONFIG: http://lists.evdl.org/options.cgi/ev-evdl.org ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/sub/index.html CONFIG: http://lists.evdl.org/options.cgi/ev-evdl.org ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: DC plans (accidental) EV tax
Yes, it will apply to EVs. On the other hand, battery densities are increasing so this should be relatively short lived. Plus, the collective effect across states will be to encourage that acceleration. On the other hand, I know how you feel, it will temporarily discourage EV sales. But compare to here, Washington state, where we have a $225 flat EV annual fee. I think that's unfair but it doesn't seem to have affected EV sales. Hopefully that will be true in DC as well. Peri << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >> -- Original Message -- From: "EV List Lackey via EV" To: ev@lists.evdl.org Cc: "EV List Lackey" Sent: 13-Jun-22 09:44:38 Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: DC plans (accidental) EV tax Washington DC plans to increase yearly vehicle license fees from $72 to $175 for vehicles over 3500lb. Owners of vehicles with weight over 5000lb would get hit with $250, and over 6000lb, $500. The proposal is aimed at discouraging purchase of big SUVs and pickups, and compelling their owners to pay for the heavy vehicles' greater social costs (traffic injuries and deaths, road degredation). They seem to have forgotten that EV batteries add weight. This will raise license fees on almost all production EVs. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-05-26/a-new-way-to-curb-the- rise-of-oversized-pickups-and-suvs Shortcut: https://v.gd/Umr8Jm Mini Cooper SE Electric 3144lb - $72 Nissan Leaf 3538lb - $175 Tesla 3 SR Plus 3582lb - $175 Chevrolet Bolt 3589lb - $175 Hyundai Kona Electric 3715lb - $175 Kia Niro EV 3854lb - $175 Kia EV6 4023lb - $175 Ford Mustang Mach E 4394lb - $175 VW ID4 4559lb - $175 Tesla S LR 4561lb - $175 Tesla X LR 5185lb - $250 Ford F150 Lightning 6015lb - $500 GMC Hummer EV 9046lb - $500 David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Some people ask, "Why?" Others ask, "Why not?" Then later they say, "Oh." -- Found on the Net = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/sub/index.html CONFIG: http://lists.evdl.org/options.cgi/ev-evdl.org ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/sub/index.html CONFIG: http://lists.evdl.org/options.cgi/ev-evdl.org ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
[EVDL] EVLN: DC plans (accidental) EV tax
Washington DC plans to increase yearly vehicle license fees from $72 to $175 for vehicles over 3500lb. Owners of vehicles with weight over 5000lb would get hit with $250, and over 6000lb, $500. The proposal is aimed at discouraging purchase of big SUVs and pickups, and compelling their owners to pay for the heavy vehicles' greater social costs (traffic injuries and deaths, road degredation). They seem to have forgotten that EV batteries add weight. This will raise license fees on almost all production EVs. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-05-26/a-new-way-to-curb-the- rise-of-oversized-pickups-and-suvs Shortcut: https://v.gd/Umr8Jm Mini Cooper SE Electric 3144lb - $72 Nissan Leaf 3538lb - $175 Tesla 3 SR Plus 3582lb - $175 Chevrolet Bolt 3589lb - $175 Hyundai Kona Electric 3715lb - $175 Kia Niro EV 3854lb - $175 Kia EV6 4023lb - $175 Ford Mustang Mach E 4394lb - $175 VW ID4 4559lb - $175 Tesla S LR 4561lb - $175 Tesla X LR 5185lb - $250 Ford F150 Lightning 6015lb - $500 GMC Hummer EV 9046lb - $500 David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Some people ask, "Why?" Others ask, "Why not?" Then later they say, "Oh." -- Found on the Net = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/sub/index.html CONFIG: http://lists.evdl.org/options.cgi/ev-evdl.org ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
