Re: [EVDL] Cell Tower Interference
Wow, a lot of good information and help. Makes me think I might be able to solve the problem. I replied to all and it looks like this is going to the Discussion List. I'll need to read over the information and let everyone know. I just went over to the tower location this morning and left my cell phone at home. Same result but at least we may have eliminated that potential issue. Sorry I did not say where I was located. I live in Fairfield CA between San Francisco and Sacramento. If anyone lives in the area I would be more than happy to have them come over, if nothing else but to make sure I am not crazy about this issue. I have been thinking it has something to do with the throttle also so these comments really help. The throttle is I think a five or six wire Prius throttle with two wipers, two grounds and one or two 5 volt wires if I remember correctly. From the pedal the wires are covered with a shielding material out to a point about 2 feet of the controller where I had to add additional wiring to make it long enough to fit. At one point I wrapped the exposed wires with tin foil and grounded the foil. I also have installed a lot of ferrite beads close to the controller and the UQM inverter as someone had suggested a couple of months ago. I could possibility re-route the wiring from the peddle and do some of the other things recommended here. I'll try anything at this point. Interesting comment about the AM radio because when I was driving it in the downtown area I had it almost quit again in one specific area and since that time I have noticed that the radio on our 2007 Saturn Vue has issues in the same area and I think it is tuned to an AM station. I don't have a radio in the Avanti. I will read over all the suggestions and start trying some things. Thanks so very much to those who have commented. If you all have any questions please let me know. David On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 10:13:59 AM PDT, Lee Hart via EV wrote: Bill Dube via EV wrote: > I agree with Phil. > > I also doubt that cell towers are the root cause of your issue. I agree; cell phones operate at GHz frequencies, which is highly unlikely to affect any EV electronics. However, wherever they put cell towers, they may also put *other* radio services. There's a city water tower near us, and it literally bristles with dozens of radio antennas; police, fire, FM radio stations, etc. They operate at lower frequencies and higher power levels, which *may* get into your EV wiring. > The problem is likely due to the motor wiring and other power wiring not > kept separate/distant from the throttle wiring. The throttle wiring > needs to be a small, shielded, 3-wire cable, kept very distant from any > battery or motor cables. > > Additionally, the motor cables need to be kept very close to one > another, and the battery cables need to travel in pairs that are also > kept close to one another. Every battery cable that emerges from a > battery module needs to be paired tightly with the opposite polarity > battery cable carrying the return current. That's all good advice. When this can't be done (for instance the wiring between cells inside a battery box), then the box itself should be metal, or have some kind of shielding (even grounded aluminum foil will work). A portable AM radio is an easy way to "sniff" for RF noise. Tune the radio between stations, and turn up the volume. If something is emitting broadband RF noise, it's likely to interfere with AM radio. Lee -- Whatever the problem, be part of the solution. Don’t just sit around raising questions and pointing out obstacles. -- Tina Fey -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20230624/5a5f176b/attachment.htm> ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] Cell Tower Interference
On 24 Jun 2023 at 10:15, (-Phil-) via EV wrote: > I thought by replying maybe it was going back to the entire group. Sorry. It's supposed to. The reply-to in message headers is the list address, ev@lists.evdl.org. AFAIK Yahoo has always respected the reply-to, but they've made some changes (ostensibly for security) in recent years, so who knows. If in doubt select "reply to all" (if available) and that should do it. > The one cell tower that I use to test modifications is about one mile > from my house and it does not affect the car until i am basically on the > street right next to it, say 100 feet from the tower base. I forgot to > also mention I have a friend who is a pilot for the airlines a I'm not and engineer, but it seems to me that if the disruption always happens hear that specific tower location, but not reliably near any other mobile phone towers, it could be the mobile radiation - but it could also be something else in the area blasting out RF hash. If it occurs at many or most towers then that seems more definitive. Then you have to figure out what in your installation is acting as an antenna and how to make it stop doing so. When did the problem start? A possibly ignorance-prompted thought: you might try leaving your mobile phone at home while driving and see if that makes any difference. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = It will always be one of the best jokes of democracy that it gives its deadly enemies the means to destroy it. -- Joseph Goebbels = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] Cell Tower Interference
rd of this being a problem. I recently wrapped the controller and built > a box around it but it didn't make any difference. A number of my other > components such as my BMS and chargers are made by Thunderstruck motors and > upon contacting them they also didn't feel that their components would > cause such an issue. The motor and inverter is made by UQM and I purchased > them as a unit from Thunderstruck and I believe they came out of a Coda > car. The HV wiring between them are shielded which I found out the hard > way and they are the factory cables. > > For the battery pack I have eight 5 kWH modules that came out of the Smith > trucks so they are basically factory made. However, here is where the bad > engineering may be involved. I have six of these modules in the rear of > the car and two in the front for weight distribution. The HV cables > between the front and the rear are basically 2-0 welding wire which are not > shielded. Also to keep the cable length as short as possible, the two > cables running from the rear pack to the front pack run under the car along > the frame rails, one on either side of the car. The HV cables from the > battery pack to my contactors are also made of the same cable and not > shielded. When you say limit the length of cable between the controller > and the motor are you talking about between the inverter and the motor? As > mentioned these cables are factory original and are shielded and as short > as they can be. > > I'm not all that smart about all these electronics so I'm not sure what > you mean by battery loop inductance. Motor and the inverter are connected > with a ground cable that came with them and the inverter is basically > bolted to the frame of the car so I think things are grounded but maybe I > need additional grounding. I do not have a heavy flat braided jumper > between the motor and inverter so I guess I could improve on the original > ground wire connection. > > I have tried all kinds of shielding with no results and like you say maybe > it is internal interference or my cell phone. > > Thanks again, I welcome any and all comments. David > > On Friday, June 23, 2023 at 10:49:11 AM PDT, (-Phil-) > wrote: > > > Unless you have a cell tower right in your driveway (near-field), it's > highly unlikely that's the cause. More likely would be a local cell-phone > (yours) inside the car causing this when it responds to control channel > messages or you are on a call. > > The most energy a cell tower puts out is somewhere below a few watts in > total, and due to the Inverse Square law: The radiation Intensity is > inversely proportional to the square of the distance. A WiFi access point > close to your car is going to expose it to more RF than a cell tower a > block away, but in either case the energy at the car is super low. It > would take an exceptionally "perfect storm" of bad engineering in the EV to > have this be a cause. > > More likely it's interfering with itself. The amount of electrical and RF > noise in an EV is astounding, which is why even on carefully engineered > production EVs, AM radio doesn't work so well, and why it's being removed > from most of them. There are myriad ways your home-built EV could be doing > this, but impossible to determine without a thorough analysis. Though > obvious things to consider; Did you use shielded HV cables? Did you take > steps to minimize wire length, especially from controller to motor? Are > these routed as close together as practical? Are they shielded? What > about the battery wiring? Did you design the layout to minimize battery > loop inductance? Is the motor and controller grounded to the body with a > heavy flat braided jumper? > > On Fri, Jun 23, 2023 at 10:30 AM David Heacock via EV > wrote: > > I have converted a 1985 Avanti to an EV and with the current LFP battery > pack I have a reasonable range of about 100 miles. Everything works well > with different components from different sources. However, one problem I > have yet to resolve is what appears to be interference from Cell towers > which basically seems to cut out the throttle and at slow speeds can > actually cause the vehicle to shut off and then come back on as the car > moves relative to the cell tower position. I have contacted a number of > people and suppliers about the issue and tried a number of things to > provide RF protection but have not been able to solve the problem. Has > anyone ever experienced this issue and a possible solution? > David Heacock > -- next part -- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20230623/c58f993d/attachment.htm > > > ___ > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org > No other addresses in TO and CC fields > HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/ > > -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20230624/14e882a3/attachment.htm> ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] Cell Tower Interference
Bill Dube via EV wrote: I agree with Phil. I also doubt that cell towers are the root cause of your issue. I agree; cell phones operate at GHz frequencies, which is highly unlikely to affect any EV electronics. However, wherever they put cell towers, they may also put *other* radio services. There's a city water tower near us, and it literally bristles with dozens of radio antennas; police, fire, FM radio stations, etc. They operate at lower frequencies and higher power levels, which *may* get into your EV wiring. The problem is likely due to the motor wiring and other power wiring not kept separate/distant from the throttle wiring. The throttle wiring needs to be a small, shielded, 3-wire cable, kept very distant from any battery or motor cables. Additionally, the motor cables need to be kept very close to one another, and the battery cables need to travel in pairs that are also kept close to one another. Every battery cable that emerges from a battery module needs to be paired tightly with the opposite polarity battery cable carrying the return current. That's all good advice. When this can't be done (for instance the wiring between cells inside a battery box), then the box itself should be metal, or have some kind of shielding (even grounded aluminum foil will work). A portable AM radio is an easy way to "sniff" for RF noise. Tune the radio between stations, and turn up the volume. If something is emitting broadband RF noise, it's likely to interfere with AM radio. Lee -- Whatever the problem, be part of the solution. Don’t just sit around raising questions and pointing out obstacles. -- Tina Fey -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
