Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Wait - what? MORE labor hours?
Very few features are just optional software. Mainly FSD. They put the same computer in ALL the cars, and the same cameras in ALL the cars, as even their "AutoPilot" needs them, as well as "Sentry" mode security. Most of the purchased variations are Wheels, Color, Range, Performance. (Which varies the size of the battery pack, and a couple variations on the motor.) Keeping as many components the same in all vehicles reduces cost, reduces inventory parts, etc... and make service easier. And having a powerful computer lets them offer things like Sentry Mode, and hi-quality video games, etc... On 10/17/2023 8:00 PM, Mr. Sharkey via EV wrote: > They [Tesla] also offer very few variations And the model seems to be that some (or many) of the options are built into every car manufactured, then turned on or off via software, allowing the cars to be much closer in build complexity, while still offering the buyer the full range of option possibilities. It's a brilliant business model, but it would seem to favor buyers who select more options over those who only want basic amenities, as I doubt that the "turn on" fee for enabling FSD (or whatever), for instance, fully covers the cost of the hardware installed at manufacture. The difference is paid by the buyer whether the option(s) is enabled or not. ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/ ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Wait - what? MORE labor hours?
> They [Tesla] also offer very few variations And the model seems to be that some (or many) of the options are built into every car manufactured, then turned on or off via software, allowing the cars to be much closer in build complexity, while still offering the buyer the full range of option possibilities. It's a brilliant business model, but it would seem to favor buyers who select more options over those who only want basic amenities, as I doubt that the "turn on" fee for enabling FSD (or whatever), for instance, fully covers the cost of the hardware installed at manufacture. The difference is paid by the buyer whether the option(s) is enabled or not. ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Wait - what? MORE labor hours?
Lee, Tesla has been pulling lots of stuff in-house, specifically to avoid supply chain issues, AND because generic parts waste time, materials, and construction effort. It's massively reduced the number of hoses, wires, brackets, and wasted space. They also offer very few variations - specifically because of the added costs. On 10/17/2023 1:48 PM, Lee Hart via EV wrote: It's going to be incredibly difficult to find *real* numbers. For one thing, carmakers outsource the production of a great many components and subassemblies. There will be no way to account for the labor the subcontractors put into these assemblies. For another, all cars (EVs and ICEs alike) are getting increasingly more complex, and offered in a bewildering number of styles and options. The newer the vehicle, the more complicated it is. That's bound to increase labor per vehicle as well. Yet another is that the legacy carmakers have had decades to optimize their automation for producing common parts for their ICEs to get their labor content down. This hasn't happened yet for EV parts. If a carmaker chooses to make his own batteries (or tires, or wiring harnesses, etc.), his labor cost is going to go up. But he may do it anyway, because he can't find a reliable subcontractor, or because the total cost of doing it himself (parts and labor) is still cheaper than the low bidder's price. Lee ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Wait - what? MORE labor hours?
It's going to be incredibly difficult to find *real* numbers. For one thing, carmakers outsource the production of a great many components and subassemblies. There will be no way to account for the labor the subcontractors put into these assemblies. For another, all cars (EVs and ICEs alike) are getting increasingly more complex, and offered in a bewildering number of styles and options. The newer the vehicle, the more complicated it is. That's bound to increase labor per vehicle as well. Yet another is that the legacy carmakers have had decades to optimize their automation for producing common parts for their ICEs to get their labor content down. This hasn't happened yet for EV parts. If a carmaker chooses to make his own batteries (or tires, or wiring harnesses, etc.), his labor cost is going to go up. But he may do it anyway, because he can't find a reliable subcontractor, or because the total cost of doing it himself (parts and labor) is still cheaper than the low bidder's price. Lee -- I am thankful to all of those who said "no" to me. It's because of them that I did it myself. -- Albert Einstein -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Wait - what? MORE labor hours?
On 17 Oct 2023 at 15:57, paul dove via EV wrote: > We have some news of the efficiency of Tesla -vs- VW in terms of how many > workers can make how many cars in Germany, according to a Reuters.com article. > Let's see what the number say: I could be wrong, but unless you've started referring to yourself as the royal we, this looks like copy and paste, rather than your own words. What's the source, please? David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = If all our bicycles turn into cars, that's a horrible figure. It would scare the world. -- Zhai Guangming, China National Petroleum Corporation = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Wait - what? MORE labor hours?
Tesla Worker Efficiency We have some news of the efficiency of Tesla -vs- VW in terms of how many workers can make how many cars in Germany, according to a Reuters.com article. Let's see what the number say: In Germany: Tesla will produce 500,000 cars with 12,000 workers VW will produce 700,000 cars with 25,000 workers Let's do some simple math. Tesla will produce (500,000 / 12,000) or 41.66 cars per worker VW will produce (700,000 / 25,000) or 28 cars per worker In terms of efficiency, Tesla is about 33% more efficient in producing vehicles per worker (28 / 41.66). Tesla Worker Efficiency Has VW On the Ropes Tesla Worker Efficiency Has VW On the Ropes Torquenews.com Sent from AT&T Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Tuesday, October 17, 2023, 6:24 AM, EV List Lackey via EV wrote: On 17 Oct 2023 at 0:27, Michael Ross via EV wrote: > I am not buying these figures on unknown say so. Sounds like BS. Just > whose EVs and whose batteries? Which models? Here's the original article, with some discussion of methodology. https://heatmap.news/electric-vehicles/evs-trump-uaw-jobs-evidence > Anna Stefanopoulou, a professor of mechanical engineering at the > University of Michigan, has been investigating three manufacturing > sites that used to produce conventional cars and are now producing > EVs: A Tesla factory in California that used to be a jointly-owned > facility between GM and Toyota that produced Pontiacs and Corollas; a > Rivian plant in Illinois that previously produced Mitsubishis; and the > Orion Assembly plant in Michigan, where GM transitioned from producing > Chevy Sonics and Buick Veranos to electric Chevy Bolts ... Each one is > producing fewer vehicles per worker than they were before, meaning > it´s taking more people per vehicle to produce electric cars. The > California site, which has been producing EVs for the longest out of > the three, showed the most dramatic change. At its peak, the GM/Toyota > plant produced 80 vehicles per person per year. The Tesla plant > averages 30. > > Stefanopoulou ... predicts that after a decade or so, as processes > become more streamlined, the commonly-held belief that EV assembly > requires less labor will turn out to be correct. However, she also said > that if she were to consider battery cell production, as Cotterman did, > EV production on the whole could require more people. That's just the central point and there are qualifications. I suggest that you read the entire piece at the above link. The Tesla vs GM/Toyota vehicle productivity hit really surprises me. I thought that Tesla had gone all in for automation. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Things I once thought were funny are scary now. I often feel like a resident of Pompeii who has been asked for some humorous comments on lava. -- Tom Lehrer = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/ -- next part ------ An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20231017/d368e0bd/attachment.htm> ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Wait - what? MORE labor hours?
I think the Model 3 has less automation than the higher end models. (This could be dated info) I have always wondered how amortizing the automation do-overs shows up in cost accounting. In more than one instance Tesla had to back away from some automation and rethink. Likewise with battery pack design. Tesla has tried a lot of new ideas (aluminum body/chassis). The legacy auto companies have advantages by not starting from scratch at essential auto manufacturing, and being able to reverse engineer Teslas, don't think they don't. We should not assume the engineers, managers and worker bees at legacy plants are inferior to Tesla. They might be less good at trying new stuff over and over, and better at the basics. I would guess that legacy cars will have efficiency advantages for a long time. Financial advantages, too. I am biased, I have bought Tesla stock more due to the battery business rather than car making. I never believed the legacy manufacturers would not catch up pretty fast when they put their efforts into it. There is a reason why decades passed before new car companies appeared. It is damned hard to do. On Tue, Oct 17, 2023 at 7:25 AM EV List Lackey via EV wrote: > On 17 Oct 2023 at 0:27, Michael Ross via EV wrote: > > > I am not buying these figures on unknown say so. Sounds like BS. Just > > whose EVs and whose batteries? Which models? > > Here's the original article, with some discussion of methodology. > > https://heatmap.news/electric-vehicles/evs-trump-uaw-jobs-evidence > > > Anna Stefanopoulou, a professor of mechanical engineering at the > > University of Michigan, has been investigating three manufacturing > > sites that used to produce conventional cars and are now producing > > EVs: A Tesla factory in California that used to be a jointly-owned > > facility between GM and Toyota that produced Pontiacs and Corollas; a > > Rivian plant in Illinois that previously produced Mitsubishis; and the > > Orion Assembly plant in Michigan, where GM transitioned from producing > > Chevy Sonics and Buick Veranos to electric Chevy Bolts ... Each one is > > producing fewer vehicles per worker than they were before, meaning > > it´s taking more people per vehicle to produce electric cars. The > > California site, which has been producing EVs for the longest out of > > the three, showed the most dramatic change. At its peak, the GM/Toyota > > plant produced 80 vehicles per person per year. The Tesla plant > > averages 30. > > > > Stefanopoulou ... predicts that after a decade or so, as processes > > become more streamlined, the commonly-held belief that EV assembly > > requires less labor will turn out to be correct. However, she also said > > that if she were to consider battery cell production, as Cotterman did, > > EV production on the whole could require more people. > > That's just the central point and there are qualifications. I suggest > that > you read the entire piece at the above link. > > The Tesla vs GM/Toyota vehicle productivity hit really surprises me. I > thought that Tesla had gone all in for automation. > > David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey > > To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my > offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > > Things I once thought were funny are scary now. I often feel > like a resident of Pompeii who has been asked for some > humorous comments on lava. > >-- Tom Lehrer > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > > ___ > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org > No other addresses in TO and CC fields > HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/ > > -- Michael E. Ross (919) 585-6737 Land (919) 901-2805 Cell and Text (919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Tablet, Google Phone and Text -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20231017/0f8824f4/attachment.htm> ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Wait - what? MORE labor hours?
On 17 Oct 2023 at 0:27, Michael Ross via EV wrote: > I am not buying these figures on unknown say so. Sounds like BS. Just > whose EVs and whose batteries? Which models? Here's the original article, with some discussion of methodology. https://heatmap.news/electric-vehicles/evs-trump-uaw-jobs-evidence > Anna Stefanopoulou, a professor of mechanical engineering at the > University of Michigan, has been investigating three manufacturing > sites that used to produce conventional cars and are now producing > EVs: A Tesla factory in California that used to be a jointly-owned > facility between GM and Toyota that produced Pontiacs and Corollas; a > Rivian plant in Illinois that previously produced Mitsubishis; and the > Orion Assembly plant in Michigan, where GM transitioned from producing > Chevy Sonics and Buick Veranos to electric Chevy Bolts ... Each one is > producing fewer vehicles per worker than they were before, meaning > it´s taking more people per vehicle to produce electric cars. The > California site, which has been producing EVs for the longest out of > the three, showed the most dramatic change. At its peak, the GM/Toyota > plant produced 80 vehicles per person per year. The Tesla plant > averages 30. > > Stefanopoulou ... predicts that after a decade or so, as processes > become more streamlined, the commonly-held belief that EV assembly > requires less labor will turn out to be correct. However, she also said > that if she were to consider battery cell production, as Cotterman did, > EV production on the whole could require more people. That's just the central point and there are qualifications. I suggest that you read the entire piece at the above link. The Tesla vs GM/Toyota vehicle productivity hit really surprises me. I thought that Tesla had gone all in for automation. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Things I once thought were funny are scary now. I often feel like a resident of Pompeii who has been asked for some humorous comments on lava. -- Tom Lehrer = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
