Re: [EVDL] Rental giant Hertz dumps EVs
Hertz is in business to make money. It is a BUSINESS not a government anti pollution program. I did not build my 40 foot long Totally Electric Powered Solar (TEPS)tm boat for sale or rental. It would never yield a profit that to allow a company to generate enough money to pay workers, a design team, insurance, taxes, marketing and enough profit for me to plow back into sales. I am a solar boat nut because it works perfectly BUT only for a few folks who desire a slow go. EVs provide a fast go but limited range - therefore limited acceptance. Hertz has run the numbers and the numbers are poor (to put it exceptionally nice). My solar boat, its design, 35 years work, testing and upgrades has shown me that I will stick to ICEs for the rest of my foreseeable life. Preferable ICEs are vintage 1956 to 1979. However a 2005 Mercedes Benz Sprinter, five cylinder diesel, low emission is approaching 300k miles of carefree driving. EVs are great for certain applications and limited range unlike the MOG Canal Boat with unlimited range and low speed. As an industrial designer I expect more than a glass dash to impulse me to buy an EV. I want power, speed, economy of PURCHASE, economy of fueling (electricity), low maintenance/cost and stations galore for fuel. That ain’t happened yet and Hertz is wiser. Until there is a 10 minute zero to full battery charge station with 20 servers every few kilometers and a vastly improved national grid to deliver the gigawatts of power to slake demand, I will be on the sidelines rooting for the EVs but definitely not impressed to date. ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] EV Digest, Vol 93, Issue 8
The million mile battery? Most folks when informed with CATL or Tesla saying they have a million mile battery think its range miles are all on a single big charge. Nope! even at a projected $80/kwh at full production, not so LOL. Truth be told, range anxiety will still be the dread as it was before. Maybe the battery gets more range but that is slim consolation when driving from Helena, MT to Davenport, IA at 70 to 80 mph in peak summer or dead of winter. Until I can see a reasonable alternative to paying $10k and up for a 22kwh batt pack for our boat, I will stick to 16 to 20 LA batts at $80 each that last 7 years under constant solar charging. Technology is getting much closer and looking really great and exciting though. When the day comes I will gladly make the switch. http://mogcanalboat.com/ a private build boat. George On Jul 7, 2020, at 4:08 PM, ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org wrote: > Send EV mailing list submissions to > ev@lists.evdl.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > ev-ow...@lists.evdl.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of EV digest..." > > > Also, please be careful not to append the entire digest to your reply. Many > mail systems do this by default. Trim or delete the digest text from the > bottom of your message, and quote only the parts to which you're replying. > > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. LiFePO4 (EVDL Administrator) > 2. Re: LiFePO4 (Willie) > > > -- > > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2020 03:43:14 -0400 > From: "EVDL Administrator" > To: ev@lists.evdl.org > Subject: [EVDL] LiFePO4 > Message-ID: <5f03ef52.26496.39db...@evpost.drmm.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > While I was looking for other information a couple of days ago, I ran across > something on the web that surprised me. I didn't follow up at the time and > now I've lost track of where it was, but maybe someone else here knows > something about it. > > The post or article I saw claimed that Tesla's supposedly-upcoming much- > discussed "million mile battery" is lithium iron phosphate chemistry. > > LiFePO4 was something of an EV holy grail 15-20 years ago. Valence was > offering their Saphion phosphate-based lithium modules around 2002. A123 > was also an early LiFePO4 booster. Both claimed long cycle life and > improved safety, and A123s were also known for ferocious specific power. > > When the cheap and cheerful Chinese low-power versions from Thundersky, > CALB, and others started to appear in the States, a lot of them went into EV > conversions. You can find discussions about this in the EVDL archive around > 2006-2009. > > If memory serves, the main downside to LiFePO4 was specific energy. It just > wasn't as good as what cobalt and manganese based chemistries offered. > > I also seem to recall some kind of patent-related LiFePO4 problem. This may > have been the reason that hobbyists jumped on the cheap and cheerful Chinese > LiFePO4 cells from Thundersky, CALB, and the like. Again dredging up from > memory, I think that hose companies somehow (allegedly) made an end run > around the patent and licensing concerns. > > Now, if I'm not mistaken, Tesla's development partner in the "million mile > battery" is a Chinese firm. That's ... uh ... interesting. > > So has the EV world rehabilitated lithium iron phosphate's reputation? Has > its specific energy problem been solved? What about licensing and patents? > > David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey > > To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my > offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > A developed country is not a place where the poor have cars. > It's where the rich use public transportation. > >-- Gustavo Petro > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > > > > -- > > Message: 2 > Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2020 17:57:23 -0500 > From: Willie > To: ev@lists.evdl.org > Subject: Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4 > Message-ID: <94dd44a7-e29d-b66c-a9b4-274d1afa4...@gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed > > > > On 7/7/20 2:43 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote: > >> I also seem to recall some kind of patent-related LiFePO4 problem. This may >> have been the reason that hobbyists jumped on the cheap and cheerful Chinese >> LiFePO4 cells from Thundersky, CALB, and the like. Again dredging up from >> memory, I think that hose companies somehow (allegedly) made an end run
Re: [EVDL] EV Boat
Jerry, Thank you for your 3 following concerns…... 1. In winds or getting caught in a fast tide the boat could be out of control and you don't have enough power to handle it. >>Every boater should factor their boat, their experience & limitations, >>applying the sum to the area of passage, navigating accordingly. There will never be enough power to overcome stupidity. 2. While it can move some in good conditions, weather can go bad fast. >>Make sure that sentence is on a nice shiny brass plate attached prominently >>to your helm. 3. What I said still stands, ignore it if you want but my 45 yr boat design, building, sailing, solar and powering experience says you need to be very careful and have multiple large anchors. >>Many would be interested in your boat designs and boat builds. How is your "34 foot trimaran sail/solar powered 20 mph sail or gas power retirement home" coming along? Perhaps you might share this and your gallery of past and current marine work? Regards, George ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EV Boat
ectric motors, super cap/battery amalgamations, advanced alkaline > fuel cells, thin/flexible PV modules' > These are needlessly expensive or just not viable at all. > > Jerry Dycus > > > > From: George McNeir via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> > To: ev@lists.evdl.org > Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2015 9:06 PM > Subject: [EVDL] EV Boat > > I have just joined and subscribe to EVDL with the idea that there are > likeminded folks interested in large EV boat design and building. The MOG is > not a commercial enterprise at this time but may be key to the creation of > such. Everything designed and implemented over the past 25 years is described > on the site given below and in the videos and blog that are also given below. > > Primarily I ask for any dialog that would help in furthering the progress > made to date. In effect, those with knowledge of the Navitas NPS600 motor > controller, eCycle electric motors, super cap/battery amalgamations, advanced > alkaline fuel cells, thin/flexible PV modules, internal grid power > distribution DC networks and anything else that may be contemplated for such > a craft is welcome. > > In its present form, the totally solar electric (drive and appliance) powered > boat is very functional. Considerations in decreasing onboard use of power as > well as better use of power now created and stored is paramount in continuing > further development. > > To date, all of the boat design & build has been funded through my own > personal funds as a hobby. Below are the background data to which I referred. > > Thank you in advance for your deliberation and comments. George > > > VIDEOSMoving > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LI2nnN5892A=youtu.be > > Beached https://youtu.be/h92dWykE_Xo > > Tour https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRGKbayI2yI > > SITEhttp://www.mogcanalboat.com > > BLOGhttp://www.mognavy.blogspot.com/ > -- next part -- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150426/2660f74b/attachment.htm> > ___ > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA > (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > > > -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20160211/09adc9fa/attachment.htm> ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
[EVDL] EV vote
MOG is on a quest for the ‘totally solar electric boat’ with free build licenses for not-for-profit humanitarian use. We have entered a contest and anyone sharing our interests can join in the voting. With 7 category headings of unique inventions, there is no lack of neat stuff upon which to vote. Our blog about the totally solar electric boat, leads into the NASA Tech Pubs competition called 'Create The Future’. Getting a good ranking in the contest would bring the solar EV boat quest to light. In short, if one registers to vote (actually registering for the CR4 site/forum), once registered, they can log back in, vote and follow the contest to conclusion. CR4 is a high tech site for all. The full size solar boat, other prototypes, systems, programs and ideas are all up for recognition by vote. The solar boat is just one entry under the Sustainable Technologies heading. The blog site http://www.mognavy.blogspot.com/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150829/8b0ef5a3/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
[EVDL] Electric Solar Boat
Mike Nickerson, The 24 volts being used for the overall system voltage was a technically painful choice but needed for a salt environment. I have been shocked at 48 VDC in salt bilge water and can say that it is weird and unpleasant. There are an increasing number of marine electronics that utilize 24 to 28 volts DC as well as consumer/commercial DC/DC step downs to 12 VDC and 110v AC mod and full sine inverters. Some of that stuff was not even around 5 years ago, Moore’s Law, huh? The use of 24VDC from a PV standpoint is that the down coming voltage from the roof can be kept above the system voltage (for MPPT) whilst not being a painful shock/burn. Roof down voltage is about 30 plus VDC on one panel (5 PV modules) and 72 VDC on the other panel (6 PV modules). A Schnieder and Outback controller is used for the control of the 2 down coming voltages. The Outback is a refined MPPT (tracking the mix of current to voltage for maximum charging efficiency, Maximum Power Point Tracking). The Schnieder (was called a Trace C40) is meat and potatoes. I look forward to the total replacement of the 11 x 235 watt PVs with thin film flexibles and dropping the 72 VDC down coming voltage to about 36 VDC…… more time…. more money. The boat was designed around the roof. The gross size is about 10X26 feet but with the correct PV system I can drop from 11 huge rectangles to full coverage. Also the weight is 11 X 44 pounds which will be dropped, with the thin PVs, to a total of 140 pounds. From 484 pound to 140 pounds is a stellar achievement and reduces the inertia of rocking and the sustained lean angle. PV heat dissipation is still a trick thing and is part of the hot water heating system. History button ofhttp://www.mogcanalboat.com/ gives a bit more design insight. I sold the Onan 4Kw,1800 rpm genset a long time ago, never used it. A superb gen, it was not needed. The Lestronic 48 VDC charger was used about 5 times in 10 years and is currently used to hold down the floor tiles in the garage. I have a woefully small 24 VDC charger and have no immediate plans for a Lestronic or marine unit, but, someday though. Best to all, George Hi George, Thanks for the specifications. The 24V operation is interesting. Most cars use higher voltage and lower current. That allows smaller sized wires to carry current. However, I suspect the 24V has some benefits too. First, lower voltage is safer than higher voltage. Does the 24V integrate better with the solar cells? Seems like it might. When people ask about solar cells on a car, the typical answer is to skip them on the car and put the cells on the carport instead. The boat is big enough that it's top is probably the size of a carport. How many square feet of solar cells are on the boat? Is there charging for the batteries besides the solar panels? Mike -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150429/7e0cbd19/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
[EVDL] Electric Solar Boat
Mike Nickerson and all, My apologies for not answering your last question more accurately about total wattage off the roof and per square foot. At 65 x 39 inches (17.6sf) the 11 modules yield 2,585 watts (13.3 w/ft2). Their replacement with cells of similar output and utilizing the full roof area (not limited to large rectangles) would yield nearly 30 square feet and 3990 watts. That would probably increase the speed to well over 4 mph and keep the battery bank full all (sunny) day. There are very special batteries I will be using as soon as one of the companies with whom I am working, get them into production. They are not Li types, they are in fact extremely close in specification to current Li units but are foamed lead acid. Many of the inter/intra-cellular balancing schemes and temperature problems are avoided with weight and power density the same. Some of that is covered and linked from http://www.mogcanalboat.com/ The major difficulty with a boat, that does not arise with cars and airplanes, is the need for sleeping, cooking, watermarking, power creation, hot water, anchors/chain, ground tackle, dingy, auxiliary power and a freezer, just to mention a few. For those reasons everything on the boat must have two uses (at least) or available living space gets filled in. Heat from PVs is used for assisting hot water and refrigeration in winter is used as an additional heating source….. on and on. This all results in creating a power grid (redundancy) instead of just ‘wiring’ and breakers. Keeping the 'down from roof voltage low' is also key to avoid frying someone's pacemaker (not sure that is a reality but is an example). However, the voltage must be a bit higher than the battery bank voltage to have best performance of the MPPT solar electric controllers. George ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
[EVDL] Electric Boat
Dan Baker, What a nifty craft for a lake getaway. If I had made a boat such as yours, I am sure that I would have spent a lot more time on it than the Mog. A great deal of ingenuity, especially the auto pilot. I currently use a Spectrum DX7 remote control and look forward to an upgrade with RPM, temperature, battery voltage and more optional capabilities that show up on the RC unit’s screen. I would like to place the Mog data on the EValbum but have to find out how that data is entered. I have not read that far yet, still ironing out some minor irritations in the Navitas motor controllers (one last parameter needs a tweak). I went through all your pictures….. what a hoot I had, vicariously piloting your vessel. Don’t worry, I did not run into anything. I will get in touch later, thanks again, George ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
