Re: [EVDL] Cell Tower Interference

[David Heacock via EV]

 Wow, a lot of good information and help.  Makes me think I might be able to 
solve the problem.  I replied to all and it looks like this is going to the 
Discussion List.  
I'll need to read over the information and let everyone know.  I just went over 
to the tower location this morning and left my cell phone at home.  Same result 
but at least we may have eliminated that potential issue.  
Sorry I did not say where I was located.  I live in Fairfield CA between San 
Francisco and Sacramento.  If anyone lives in the area I would be more than 
happy to have them come over, if nothing else but to make sure I am not crazy 
about this issue.  
I have been thinking it has something to do with the throttle also so these 
comments really help.  The throttle is I think a five or six wire Prius 
throttle with two wipers, two grounds and one or two 5 volt wires if I remember 
correctly.  From the pedal the wires are covered with a shielding material out 
to a point about 2 feet of the controller where I had to add additional wiring 
to make it long enough to fit.  At one point I wrapped the exposed wires with 
tin foil and grounded the foil.  I also have installed a lot of ferrite beads 
close to the controller and the UQM inverter as someone had suggested a couple 
of months ago.  I could possibility re-route the wiring from the peddle and do 
some of the other things recommended here.  I'll try anything at this point.
Interesting comment about the AM radio because when I was driving it in the 
downtown area I had it almost quit again in one specific area and since that 
time I have noticed that the radio on our 2007 Saturn Vue has issues in the 
same area and I think it is tuned to an AM station.  I don't have a radio in 
the Avanti. 
I will read over all the suggestions and start trying some things.  Thanks so 
very much to those who have commented.  If you all have any questions please 
let me know.  David    
On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 10:13:59 AM PDT, Lee Hart via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 Bill Dube via EV wrote:
> I agree with Phil.
> 
> I also doubt that cell towers are the root cause of your issue.

I agree; cell phones operate at GHz frequencies, which is highly 
unlikely to affect any EV electronics.

However, wherever they put cell towers, they may also put *other* radio 
services. There's a city water tower near us, and it literally bristles 
with dozens of radio antennas; police, fire, FM radio stations, etc. 
They operate at lower frequencies and higher power levels, which *may* 
get into your EV wiring.

> The problem is likely due to the motor wiring and other power wiring not 
> kept separate/distant from the throttle wiring. The throttle wiring 
> needs to be a small, shielded, 3-wire cable, kept very distant from any 
> battery or motor cables.
> 
> Additionally, the motor cables need to be kept very close to one 
> another, and the battery cables need to travel in pairs that are also 
> kept close to one another. Every battery cable that emerges from a 
> battery module needs to be paired tightly with the opposite polarity 
> battery cable carrying the return current.

That's all good advice. When this can't be done (for instance the wiring 
between cells inside a battery box), then the box itself should be 
metal, or have some kind of shielding (even grounded aluminum foil will 
work).

A portable AM radio is an easy way to "sniff" for RF noise. Tune the 
radio between stations, and turn up the volume. If something is emitting 
broadband RF noise, it's likely to interfere with AM radio.

Lee

-- 
Whatever the problem, be part of the solution. Don’t just sit
around raising questions and pointing out obstacles. -- Tina Fey
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com

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Re: [EVDL] Cell Tower Interference

[EV List Lackey via EV]

On 24 Jun 2023 at 10:15, (-Phil-) via EV wrote:

> I thought by replying maybe it was going back to the entire group.

Sorry.  It's supposed to.  The reply-to in message headers is the list 
address, ev@lists.evdl.org.  AFAIK Yahoo has always respected the reply-to, 
but they've made some changes (ostensibly for security) in recent years, so 
who knows.

If in doubt select "reply to all" (if available) and that should do it.

> The one cell tower that I use to test modifications is about one mile
> from my house and it does not affect the car until i am basically on the
> street right next to it, say 100 feet from the tower base.  I forgot to
> also mention I have a friend who is a pilot for the airlines a 

I'm not and engineer, but it seems to me that if the disruption always 
happens hear that specific tower location, but not reliably near any other 
mobile phone towers, it could be the mobile radiation - but it could also be 
something else in the area blasting out RF hash.  

If it occurs at many or most towers then that seems more definitive.  Then 
you have to figure out what in your installation is acting as an antenna and 
how to make it stop doing so.

When did the problem start?

A possibly ignorance-prompted thought: you might try leaving your mobile 
phone at home while driving and see if that makes any difference.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

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Re: [EVDL] Cell Tower Interference

[(-Phil-) via EV]

Just make sure ev@lists.evdl.org is in your "To:".   I'll reply to the
group with this message.

5G isn't "more power", it's just using some of the same frequencies that
older radar altimeters use.  So the FCC has restricted those frequencies
near airports.

100 feet from the tower could definitely be considered "near field".   I'd
start by making sure all your control signals, especially the throttle
wiring is twisted and/or shielded as Bill mentioned.  Make sure the shields
are only connected at one end of the wiring, probably best to be the
controller side.  Add some snap-on RF chokes at each end of the cable too,
such as these: https://amzn.to/3XnYZnG

You could also add some filtering, such as a 0.1uF ceramic capacitor from
the accelerator signal to ground at the controller, and from the +v signal
to ground. ("outer" terminal of the pot).

Again, where are you located?  Maybe me or one of the other experienced
guys on the list are local and could come help?

On Sat, Jun 24, 2023 at 9:56 AM David Heacock  wrote:

> Phil, sorry, I have not been on the the discussion list for many years and
> I thought by replying maybe it was going back to the entire group.  I do
> want to share this with everyone if they feel it is of some value.  The one
> cell tower that I use to test modifications is about one mile from my house
> and it does not affect the car until i am basically on the street right
> next to it, say 100 feet from the tower base.  I forgot to also mention I
> have a friend who is a pilot for the airlines and about a year ago or so
> they had a notice come out that the new G5 cell signal levels had increased
> and could interfere with their radar altimeters and modifications were
> going to be made.
>
> How do I send all this to the group?
>
> On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 09:21:02 AM PDT, (-Phil-) <
> p...@ingineerix.com> wrote:
>
>
> I just don't see how a cell tower a mile away could affect you.   If it
> were right next door, maybe.   Where are you located?
>
> I notice you didn't post your reply to the whole list, but I think you
> should.   I will respect your decision and not post my reply, but keeping
> this private means the next guy won't benefit from the group's wisdom.
>
> On Fri, Jun 23, 2023 at 4:58 PM David Heacock  wrote:
>
> Phil, I first want to thank you very much for your reply which has some
> very useful information.  I have been trying to figure out the problem for
> some time and most everyone finds it hard to believe that the cell tower
> can be the issue.  Over time I have narrowed down the problem to the cell
> towers by trial and error.  I have a cell tower, which is made to look like
> a large tree, about one mile from my house.  I have had the car quit a
> couple of times in that area when I discovered the tower.  The tower is
> located about 100 or so feet from the side of the road behind a shopping
> center in an adjacent parking lot near a hotel.  What I have found is that
> when I drive the car slowly on the street I get to a point where the
> interference happens and the car will cut out.  Sometimes I can move the
> car in reverse less than 10 feet and the interference goes away and the car
> drives normally until I move it back to the point where the interference
> happened.  The road is flat in this area and I have actually needed to push
> the car 10-20 to get it out of the interference zone.  I have also had this
> happen on the local freeway where you can feel the car cut out and then
> come back on again and I know where there is another cell tower in the
> area.  At one point I discovered by driving in the far right hand lane I
> would not experience the interference as there is a hill between the tower
> and the car.  However, by driving in the third lane the tower had a more
> direct line of sight to the car because It was not behind the hill off the
> road and I would experience the interference, if that make sense?
>
> Having said all that someone else mentioned the same possible problem with
> my cell phone in the car but you explained why this might happen.  I think
> at one point I tried to wrap the cell phone in some RF screen material but
> it didn't solve the issue.  I guess from what you are saying I am going to
> have to leave my phone at home and try it again to see what happens.  I
> should say that my Avanti has a fiberglass body and from what I understand
> the fiberglass does not stop RF radiation?
>
> Thanks for you comment about a perfect storm because I would not rule that
> out.  I have tried to learn about how things should be wired but from what
> you saying I probably have some issues to correct.  The main controller is
> a GEVCU from EVTV and upon contacting them I found out that they have never
> heard of this being a problem.  I recently wrapped the controller and built
> a box around it but it didn't make any difference.  A number of my other
> components such as my BMS and chargers are made by Thunderstruck motors and
> upon 

Re: [EVDL] Cell Tower Interference

[Lee Hart via EV]

Bill Dube via EV wrote:

I agree with Phil.

I also doubt that cell towers are the root cause of your issue.


I agree; cell phones operate at GHz frequencies, which is highly 
unlikely to affect any EV electronics.


However, wherever they put cell towers, they may also put *other* radio 
services. There's a city water tower near us, and it literally bristles 
with dozens of radio antennas; police, fire, FM radio stations, etc. 
They operate at lower frequencies and higher power levels, which *may* 
get into your EV wiring.


The problem is likely due to the motor wiring and other power wiring not 
kept separate/distant from the throttle wiring. The throttle wiring 
needs to be a small, shielded, 3-wire cable, kept very distant from any 
battery or motor cables.


Additionally, the motor cables need to be kept very close to one 
another, and the battery cables need to travel in pairs that are also 
kept close to one another. Every battery cable that emerges from a 
battery module needs to be paired tightly with the opposite polarity 
battery cable carrying the return current.


That's all good advice. When this can't be done (for instance the wiring 
between cells inside a battery box), then the box itself should be 
metal, or have some kind of shielding (even grounded aluminum foil will 
work).


A portable AM radio is an easy way to "sniff" for RF noise. Tune the 
radio between stations, and turn up the volume. If something is emitting 
broadband RF noise, it's likely to interfere with AM radio.


Lee

--
Whatever the problem, be part of the solution. Don’t just sit
around raising questions and pointing out obstacles. -- Tina Fey
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com

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Re: [EVDL] Cell Tower Interference

[Bill Dube via EV]

I agree with Phil.

I also doubt that cell towers are the root cause of your issue.

The problem is likely due to the motor wiring and other power wiring not 
kept separate/distant from the throttle wiring. The throttle wiring 
needs to be a small, shielded, 3-wire cable, kept very distant from any 
battery or motor cables.


Additionally, the motor cables need to be kept very close to one 
another, and the battery cables need to travel in pairs that are also 
kept close to one another. Every battery cable that emerges from a 
battery module needs to be paired tightly with the opposite polarity 
battery cable carrying the return current.


Basically, bundle up the power leads, and motor leads on one side of the 
car. Put the shielded throttle wire (at least twisted if not shielded) 
far away from the power cables, preferably on the opposite side of the car.


A classic "self-inflicted wound" in DIY EV's is several battery boxes 
distributed around the car and wired in a large single cable, series 
loop, that surrounds the perimeter of the car. This loop acts like a 
very nice loop antenna that bathes the entire vehicle in RF. Everything 
electronic in the vehicle goes nuts when you press the throttle.


Bill D.

 On 6/24/2023 5:48 AM, (-Phil-) via EV wrote:

Unless you have a cell tower right in your driveway (near-field), it's
highly unlikely that's the cause.  More likely would be a local cell-phone
(yours) inside the car causing this when it responds to control channel
messages or you are on a call.

The most energy a cell tower puts out is somewhere below a few watts in
total, and due to the Inverse Square law: The radiation Intensity is
inversely proportional to the square of the distance.   A WiFi access point
close to your car is going to expose it to more RF than a cell tower a
block away, but in either case the energy at the car is super low.  It
would take an exceptionally "perfect storm" of bad engineering in the EV to
have this be a cause.

More likely it's interfering with itself.  The amount of electrical and RF
noise in an EV is astounding, which is why even on carefully engineered
production EVs, AM radio doesn't work so well, and why it's being removed
from most of them.  There are myriad ways your home-built EV could be doing
this, but impossible to determine without a thorough analysis.  Though
obvious things to consider; Did you use shielded HV cables?  Did you take
steps to minimize wire length, especially from controller to motor?  Are
these routed as close together as practical?  Are they shielded?   What
about the battery wiring?  Did you design the layout to minimize battery
loop inductance?  Is the motor and controller grounded to the body with a
heavy flat braided jumper?

On Fri, Jun 23, 2023 at 10:30 AM David Heacock via EV 
wrote:


I have converted a 1985 Avanti to an EV and with the current LFP battery
pack I have a reasonable range of about 100 miles.  Everything works well
with different components from different sources.  However, one problem I
have yet to resolve is what appears to be interference from Cell towers
which basically seems to cut out the throttle and at slow speeds can
actually cause the vehicle to shut off and then come back on as the car
moves relative to the cell tower position.  I have contacted a number of
people and suppliers about the issue and tried a number of things to
provide RF protection but have not been able to solve the problem.   Has
anyone ever experienced this issue and a possible solution?
David Heacock
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Re: [EVDL] Cell Tower Interference

[(-Phil-) via EV]

Unless you have a cell tower right in your driveway (near-field), it's
highly unlikely that's the cause.  More likely would be a local cell-phone
(yours) inside the car causing this when it responds to control channel
messages or you are on a call.

The most energy a cell tower puts out is somewhere below a few watts in
total, and due to the Inverse Square law: The radiation Intensity is
inversely proportional to the square of the distance.   A WiFi access point
close to your car is going to expose it to more RF than a cell tower a
block away, but in either case the energy at the car is super low.  It
would take an exceptionally "perfect storm" of bad engineering in the EV to
have this be a cause.

More likely it's interfering with itself.  The amount of electrical and RF
noise in an EV is astounding, which is why even on carefully engineered
production EVs, AM radio doesn't work so well, and why it's being removed
from most of them.  There are myriad ways your home-built EV could be doing
this, but impossible to determine without a thorough analysis.  Though
obvious things to consider; Did you use shielded HV cables?  Did you take
steps to minimize wire length, especially from controller to motor?  Are
these routed as close together as practical?  Are they shielded?   What
about the battery wiring?  Did you design the layout to minimize battery
loop inductance?  Is the motor and controller grounded to the body with a
heavy flat braided jumper?

On Fri, Jun 23, 2023 at 10:30 AM David Heacock via EV 
wrote:

> I have converted a 1985 Avanti to an EV and with the current LFP battery
> pack I have a reasonable range of about 100 miles.  Everything works well
> with different components from different sources.  However, one problem I
> have yet to resolve is what appears to be interference from Cell towers
> which basically seems to cut out the throttle and at slow speeds can
> actually cause the vehicle to shut off and then come back on as the car
> moves relative to the cell tower position.  I have contacted a number of
> people and suppliers about the issue and tried a number of things to
> provide RF protection but have not been able to solve the problem.   Has
> anyone ever experienced this issue and a possible solution?
> David Heacock
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[EVDL] Cell Tower Interference

[David Heacock via EV]

I have converted a 1985 Avanti to an EV and with the current LFP battery pack I 
have a reasonable range of about 100 miles.  Everything works well with 
different components from different sources.  However, one problem I have yet 
to resolve is what appears to be interference from Cell towers which basically 
seems to cut out the throttle and at slow speeds can actually cause the vehicle 
to shut off and then come back on as the car moves relative to the cell tower 
position.  I have contacted a number of people and suppliers about the issue 
and tried a number of things to provide RF protection but have not been able to 
solve the problem.   Has anyone ever experienced this issue and a possible 
solution?
David Heacock
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