Re: [EVDL] Updated: Outdoor home EVSE: Installing External ChargeAccess
> Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2016 14:02:10 -0800
> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Updated: Outdoor home EVSE: Installing External
> ChargeAccess
> From: ev@lists.evdl.org
>
> Mike,
> L1 is only 110V as fas as I know,
> so 240V 50A is more than most L2 can sustain and definitely L2.
> I think many countries do not have L1 where the household supply is 230V
> (delivered as 3-phase 400V to reduce copper usage by 1/3 since
> the "Neutral" return only needs to be the same gauge as of each of the
> phases, since the phases partially cancel each other,
-Hm, I have almost forgotten about the situation in your place
how do you do 1 phase motors efficient? I dont get it
Say if you have a large motor? for example *over* 2kW
that is about what a normal 1.5mm2 cable for 1phase
can do here, over that level it really starts to be
a bit crazy to use a 1 phase motor here
BTW
I think here (Sweden) the maximum "unbalanced" *feed in*
power at 1 of the phases(=230V) is about 3500 W, after that
it is "illegal" / not allowed by the powercompany to install.
And about 4600W allowed unbalanced power in Germany
(feed in = for example grid tied solar, or the steamengine :-)
But what if you need to connect your 40 kW windmill at
your 1phase house ? that would demand insane cables
and crazy currents at the very low voltage us-system.
And do you still *always* use only 1 wire(phase) systems
instead of 3 , even if it is rotating stuff you need in the endpoint?
(like motors or generators)
what if you get a bigger async motor, how to turn that efficient if
there is no rotating field between the normal L1,L2,L3 at the terminals? :-)
Do you use inverters for your big motors/generators to generate the 3phases?
> which is similar to the common US "two phase" system that saves 1/4 of
> the copper as also here the Neutral is the same gauge as the 2 phase
> wires instead of double the surface.
-Sometimes it is just 3 of the powerwires +shield(connected to earth/ground)
and sometimes it is no shield. (+neutral +protective earth)
Because if you have no 230V-stuff (1phase = 230V) at
the end of the 400Vac motor cable, then you probably dont need the neutral
anyway
> The standard household outlets in Europe are 230V 16A which means that
> they can deliver about 3kW continuously
- Almost correct, I think
The old standard is called Schuko, se pictures
http://www.internationalconfig.com/icc6.asp?item=70141
that translate to "safety-plug", I guess.. and I remember reading
that it is not always specified to be continuous used at max load.
i think it is 6hour at 16A. but did not find that now,
So about 3600W resistive load.
Also some have 1phase blueplug=230V outdoors, a 16Amp Europlug.
it is similar to the normal industrial 3phase "redplugs", red =400V
("IEC 60309" , but they are 16A @ 6h rating. but it is more robust,
have lock, & IP44 if they are mounted to face downwards)
-But of course it is only ok with 16A per phase if you
have copper enough and then fuses for this.
16Amp needs the fat cables of 2.5mm2 inside
the walls to be correct. 1.5mm2 will get hot..
Normal households plugs here have 1.5 mm2 and 10Amp fuses
So that is enough for about 2.3kW resistive per group and
1 phase plug(s) = 230V = and we use neutral for return.
(I assume it CAN be ok / legal to install a wall-charger at
"400Vac from 2 phases", then we use no neutral
as I think 400 Volt also is the voltage between 2 phases,
in that way you get even more power(4kw?)
out from 2pcs of 10A 1.5mm2wires :-)
and if we have 16A 2-phase I think it wil be:
400V*16A =6400W @1.5mm2 :-P
but.. you should of course NOT use a "230V 1-phase"
shucko/IEC-plugs at a 400Vac extensioncord.., as dangerous
fuckups *will* occur later when you plug in something
else there, that cant handle you nice and lethal illegal 400Vac "230"-cord
:-)
> incidentally the older Leaf L2
> charger power spec (half the full L2 spec of 6kW of 240V 24A which maxes
> out a standard 30A dryer outlet)
And 6kW switchmode 3phase chargers would only be
about 8.7 amps here = we use 1.5mm2 copper.
(my houses main fuses are 20Amp)
3phase FTW ! ;-)
/ John
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Re: [EVDL] Updated: Outdoor home EVSE: Installing External ChargeAccess
In my experience of installing EVSE locations over the past several years,
I have found the following to be most common. A dedicated (meaning that the
20 Amp breaker serves only the one outlet) 120 volt, 20 Amp receptacle
(usually spec grade or higher) for level for the L1. For L2, a 230 volt, 50
Amp circuit with a Clipper Creek EVSE or equivalent (many of these can be
set up with a 30 Amp option, but to avoid the need to upsize the circuit
later, I recommend installing with #6 wires and a 50 Amp 2 pole circuit
breaker, but always follow the manufacturer's instructions, as it will be
your defense when dealing with inspectors and insurance people.)
In my opinion, Clipper seems to offer a very robust product at a reasonable
price. And the tech support is good when needed.
If you do not have enough room in your electrical panel for the added
circuits, then it is usually best to have a sub panel installed for this
purpose. I usually offer customers this option, and suggest the idea of
adding out door outlets fed by this box for holiday light use as well,
reducing the typical overloading of circuits that often happens at such
times.
-Tom
On Mon, Jan 25, 2016 at 9:01 AM, Hoegberg via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2016 14:02:10 -0800
> > To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] Updated: Outdoor home EVSE: Installing External
> ChargeAccess
> > From: ev@lists.evdl.org
> >
> > Mike,
> > L1 is only 110V as fas as I know,
> > so 240V 50A is more than most L2 can sustain and definitely L2.
> > I think many countries do not have L1 where the household supply is 230V
> > (delivered as 3-phase 400V to reduce copper usage by 1/3 since
> > the "Neutral" return only needs to be the same gauge as of each of the
> > phases, since the phases partially cancel each other,
>
> -Hm, I have almost forgotten about the situation in your place
>
> how do you do 1 phase motors efficient? I dont get it
> Say if you have a large motor? for example *over* 2kW
> that is about what a normal 1.5mm2 cable for 1phase
> can do here, over that level it really starts to be
> a bit crazy to use a 1 phase motor here
>
> BTW
> I think here (Sweden) the maximum "unbalanced" *feed in*
> power at 1 of the phases(=230V) is about 3500 W, after that
> it is "illegal" / not allowed by the powercompany to install.
> And about 4600W allowed unbalanced power in Germany
> (feed in = for example grid tied solar, or the steamengine :-)
>
>
>
> But what if you need to connect your 40 kW windmill at
> your 1phase house ? that would demand insane cables
> and crazy currents at the very low voltage us-system.
>
> And do you still *always* use only 1 wire(phase) systems
> instead of 3 , even if it is rotating stuff you need in the endpoint?
> (like motors or generators)
>
> what if you get a bigger async motor, how to turn that efficient if
> there is no rotating field between the normal L1,L2,L3 at the terminals?
> :-)
> Do you use inverters for your big motors/generators to generate the
> 3phases?
>
>
>
>
> > which is similar to the common US "two phase" system that saves 1/4 of
> > the copper as also here the Neutral is the same gauge as the 2 phase
> > wires instead of double the surface.
>
> -Sometimes it is just 3 of the powerwires +shield(connected to
> earth/ground)
> and sometimes it is no shield. (+neutral +protective earth)
>
> Because if you have no 230V-stuff (1phase = 230V) at
> the end of the 400Vac motor cable, then you probably dont need the neutral
> anyway
>
>
>
>
>
> > The standard household outlets in Europe are 230V 16A which means that
> > they can deliver about 3kW continuously
>
> - Almost correct, I think
>
> The old standard is called Schuko, se pictures
> http://www.internationalconfig.com/icc6.asp?item=70141
> that translate to "safety-plug", I guess.. and I remember reading
> that it is not always specified to be continuous used at max load.
> i think it is 6hour at 16A. but did not find that now,
> So about 3600W resistive load.
>
> Also some have 1phase blueplug=230V outdoors, a 16Amp Europlug.
> it is similar to the normal industrial 3phase "redplugs", red =400V
> ("IEC 60309" , but they are 16A @ 6h rating. but it is more robust,
>have lock, & IP44 if they are mounted to face downwards)
>
> -But of course it is only ok with 16A per phase if you
> have copper enough and then fuses for this.
> 16Amp needs the fat cables of 2.5mm2 inside
> the walls to be correct. 1.5mm2 will get hot..
>
> Normal households plugs here have 1.5 mm2 and 10Amp fuses
> So that
Re: [EVDL] Updated: Outdoor home EVSE: Installing External ChargeAccess
On 25 Jan 2016 at 18:01, Hoegberg via EV wrote: > (my houses main fuses are 20Amp) That seems like a very small amount of power for a house. You can't charge 2 EVs at once, if they have 3.3kW chargers, is this not so? Even charging one 3.3kW EV would mean little power left for other uses in the house. Here in the US, my older home has a 100 amp main circuit breaker (that is, a pair of breakers mechanically fastened together, one breaker for each 120v "hot leg" of the line). Most newer houses in the US have a 200 amp main breaker at 240 volts, so they can (in theory) supply up to 48kW. Some very large houses have 400 amp service (96kW). David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Updated: Outdoor home EVSE: Installing External ChargeAccess
Mike,
L1 is only 110V as fas as I know,
so 240V 50A is more than most L2 can sustain and definitely L2.
I think many countries do not have L1 where the household supply is 230V
(delivered as 3-phase 400V to reduce copper usage by 1/3 since
the "Neutral" return only needs to be the same gauge as of each of the
phases, since the phases partially cancel each other,
which is similar to the common US "two phase" system that saves 1/4 of
the copper as also here the Neutral is the same gauge as the 2 phase
wires instead of double the surface.
The standard household outlets in Europe are 230V 16A which means that
they can deliver about 3kW continuously - incidentally the older Leaf L2
charger power spec (half the full L2 spec of 6kW of 240V 24A which maxes
out a standard 30A dryer outlet)
Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless
office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water
XoIP +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info
http://www.proxim.com
This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
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-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Mike Beem via
EV
Sent: Sunday, January 24, 2016 12:58 PM
To: brucedp5; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Updated: Outdoor home EVSE: Installing External
ChargeAccess
Thank you all, generous EVDL, for giving me enough information to pass
on
to my electrician friend to allow him give his customer some choices
about
how much he $pend$ on providing this access. I feel a little like
Columbo
with this, but "Just 1 more thing...": Is my dedicated meter and 50 amp
240
volt service, which I installed when I was doing my 1st full conversion
in
1999, level 2 or 1?
Thank you!
Michael B
On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 11:57 AM, brucedp5 via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org>
wrote:
> I updated my original (nabble evdl.org archive) post. So, Mike you may
> want
> the Electrician review it again:
>
>
>
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Installing-
External-Charge-Access-tp4679987p4679991.html
> Outdoor home EVSE: Installing External Charge Access
>
>
>
>
> For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
> http://evdl.org/evln/
>
>
> {brucedp.150m.com}
>
> --
> View this message in context:
>
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Installing-
External-Charge-Access-tp4679987p4680020.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
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> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>
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