Re: [EVDL] Tesla now using cameras only

[Glenn Brooks via EV]

Personally I see the contemporary “autopilot by default in all traffic 
conditions” policy  equally as dangerous as the ill fated Pinto

Seems like auto manufacturers are taking a good thing and purposely adding an 
aspect of Russian roulette to the mix - or maybe Blind Man’s Bluff.



Sent from my iPad

> On May 28, 2021, at 9:32 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV  
> wrote:
> 
>> On 28 May 2021 at 21:08, Mark Hanson via EV wrote:
>> 
>> All manufacturing companies are constantly reducing costs, maximizing 
>> profits.
> 
> Right.  And when those cost reductions make the product less safe, the long 
> term cost can end up being much higher.  
> 
> And that's just the economic cost.  The human cost is another matter 
> entirely.  It was cheaper for Ford to pay legal judgements for dead and 
> burned Pinto passengers than to fix the car's gas tank design.  Anybody here 
> want to argue that that was an ethical choice?
> 
> Not that I'm actually drawing an analogy between Tesla's possible hobbling 
> of their autopilot and Ford's Pinto debacle yet.  Let's see what happens.
> 
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
> 
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
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> 
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> humanity. It eliminates dreams, goals, and ideals, and 
> lets us get straight to the business of hate, debauchery, 
> and self-annihilation.
> 
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla now using cameras only

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 28 May 2021 at 21:08, Mark Hanson via EV wrote:

> All manufacturing companies are constantly reducing costs, maximizing profits.

Right.  And when those cost reductions make the product less safe, the long 
term cost can end up being much higher.  

And that's just the economic cost.  The human cost is another matter 
entirely.  It was cheaper for Ford to pay legal judgements for dead and 
burned Pinto passengers than to fix the car's gas tank design.  Anybody here 
want to argue that that was an ethical choice?

Not that I'm actually drawing an analogy between Tesla's possible hobbling 
of their autopilot and Ford's Pinto debacle yet.  Let's see what happens.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
 Cutting the space budget really restores my faith in 
 humanity. It eliminates dreams, goals, and ideals, and 
 lets us get straight to the business of hate, debauchery, 
 and self-annihilation.

   -- Johnny Hart
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

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[EVDL] Tesla now using cameras only

[Mark Hanson via EV]

Hi folks
Eliminating Lidar and Radar on Tesla’s 3 and Y is a cost cutting measure.  All 
manufacturing companies are constantly reducing costs, maximizing profits.  
Best regards
Mark

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Re: [EVDL] tesla now using cameras only

[paul dove via EV]

 I wondered what caused that, startles me every time it does that because it 
brakes hard.

On Friday, May 28, 2021, 5:39:29 AM CDT, Mark Laity-Snyder via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 So how do you determine what has priority using both vision and radar? One of 
the problems Tesla has is phantom breaking.  If you use both,  You have a 
situation where one could be saying go and the other says break.  Obviously 
breaking has to override go to be safe.  But then the car can break when not 
needed and you get rear ended because the guy behind saw no reason for your 
breaking because there was none.  

Sent from my iPhone

> IMO, Musk is not smart enough to listen to his AP team.  (some of the best
> people in the world at this)  He's known for firing people who resist his
> ideas.
> 
> I use Tesla AP all the time, and often in heavy Bay Area traffic.  One of
> the cool tricks radar enabled is detecting a car in front of another car in
> front of you.  For instance, say a Honda Civic is in front, followed by a
> Ford Excursion.  The Honda slams on his brakes, but the Excursion guy is on
> his phone and doesn't see the Honda until it's too late.  My radar-equipped
> Tesla will slow down as soon as the Honda does, giving more time for cars
> to react behind me.  It's literally saved the day on more than one
> occasion.
> 
> Elon's theory is "People drive with vision only, they don't have Lidar or
> Radar".  That's bullshit.  Driver assistance systems have to be superhuman
> if we are going to let them have full authority.  It can't just be "as good
> as a human", it has to be 100 or even 1000 times better than a human, or it
> will never be allowed to assume full control.  Radar is cheap superhero
> capability.
> 
> I think what happened is the semiconductor shortage impacted Tesla's radar
> supply, so they found a work-around.
> 
> 
> On Thu, May 27, 2021 at 11:16 AM EVDL Administrator via EV <
> ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
> 
>> Sometimes I really wonder about Tesla.  With the less than stellar
>> reputation that autopilot already has, it seems odd that they would
>> actually
>> delete some of the system's "eyes."  For the sake of EVs in general, I
>> sure
>> hope they know what they're doing.
>> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
>> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>>  Never been to Cleveland when the sun was shining.
>>  Even when it shines, it looks like rain.
>>        -- Melanie Safka, "Between the Road Signs"
>> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>> ___
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Re: [EVDL] tesla now using cameras only

[Mark Grasser via EV]

I'm not sure how to read this. I think you mean brake, not break. LOL. Sorry
just really annoyed me this morning.
Mark

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Mark Laity-Snyder
via EV
Sent: Friday, May 28, 2021 5:39 AM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: Mark Laity-Snyder
Subject: Re: [EVDL] tesla now using cameras only

So how do you determine what has priority using both vision and radar? One
of the problems Tesla has is phantom breaking.  If you use both,  You have a
situation where one could be saying go and the other says break.  Obviously
breaking has to override go to be safe.  But then the car can break when not
needed and you get rear ended because the guy behind saw no reason for your
breaking because there was none.  

Sent from my iPhone

> IMO, Musk is not smart enough to listen to his AP team.  (some of the best
> people in the world at this)   He's known for firing people who resist his
> ideas.
> 
> I use Tesla AP all the time, and often in heavy Bay Area traffic.  One of
> the cool tricks radar enabled is detecting a car in front of another car
in
> front of you.  For instance, say a Honda Civic is in front, followed by a
> Ford Excursion.  The Honda slams on his brakes, but the Excursion guy is
on
> his phone and doesn't see the Honda until it's too late.  My
radar-equipped
> Tesla will slow down as soon as the Honda does, giving more time for cars
> to react behind me.   It's literally saved the day on more than one
> occasion.
> 
> Elon's theory is "People drive with vision only, they don't have Lidar or
> Radar".  That's bullshit.  Driver assistance systems have to be superhuman
> if we are going to let them have full authority.  It can't just be "as
good
> as a human", it has to be 100 or even 1000 times better than a human, or
it
> will never be allowed to assume full control.   Radar is cheap superhero
> capability.
> 
> I think what happened is the semiconductor shortage impacted Tesla's radar
> supply, so they found a work-around.
> 
> 
> On Thu, May 27, 2021 at 11:16 AM EVDL Administrator via EV <
> ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
> 
>> Sometimes I really wonder about Tesla.  With the less than stellar
>> reputation that autopilot already has, it seems odd that they would
>> actually
>> delete some of the system's "eyes."  For the sake of EVs in general, I
>> sure
>> hope they know what they're doing.
>> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
>> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>>   Never been to Cleveland when the sun was shining.
>>   Even when it shines, it looks like rain.
>> -- Melanie Safka, "Between the Road Signs"
>> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>> ___
>> Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
>> No other addresses in TO and CC fields
>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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Re: [EVDL] tesla now using cameras only

[Mark Laity-Snyder via EV]

So how do you determine what has priority using both vision and radar? One of 
the problems Tesla has is phantom breaking.  If you use both,  You have a 
situation where one could be saying go and the other says break.  Obviously 
breaking has to override go to be safe.  But then the car can break when not 
needed and you get rear ended because the guy behind saw no reason for your 
breaking because there was none.  

Sent from my iPhone

> IMO, Musk is not smart enough to listen to his AP team.  (some of the best
> people in the world at this)   He's known for firing people who resist his
> ideas.
> 
> I use Tesla AP all the time, and often in heavy Bay Area traffic.  One of
> the cool tricks radar enabled is detecting a car in front of another car in
> front of you.  For instance, say a Honda Civic is in front, followed by a
> Ford Excursion.  The Honda slams on his brakes, but the Excursion guy is on
> his phone and doesn't see the Honda until it's too late.  My radar-equipped
> Tesla will slow down as soon as the Honda does, giving more time for cars
> to react behind me.   It's literally saved the day on more than one
> occasion.
> 
> Elon's theory is "People drive with vision only, they don't have Lidar or
> Radar".  That's bullshit.  Driver assistance systems have to be superhuman
> if we are going to let them have full authority.  It can't just be "as good
> as a human", it has to be 100 or even 1000 times better than a human, or it
> will never be allowed to assume full control.   Radar is cheap superhero
> capability.
> 
> I think what happened is the semiconductor shortage impacted Tesla's radar
> supply, so they found a work-around.
> 
> 
> On Thu, May 27, 2021 at 11:16 AM EVDL Administrator via EV <
> ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
> 
>> Sometimes I really wonder about Tesla.  With the less than stellar
>> reputation that autopilot already has, it seems odd that they would
>> actually
>> delete some of the system's "eyes."  For the sake of EVs in general, I
>> sure
>> hope they know what they're doing.
>> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
>> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>>   Never been to Cleveland when the sun was shining.
>>   Even when it shines, it looks like rain.
>> -- Melanie Safka, "Between the Road Signs"
>> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>> ___
>> Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
>> No other addresses in TO and CC fields
>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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Re: [EVDL] tesla now using cameras only

[(-Phil-) via EV]

IMO, Musk is not smart enough to listen to his AP team.  (some of the best
people in the world at this)   He's known for firing people who resist his
ideas.

I use Tesla AP all the time, and often in heavy Bay Area traffic.  One of
the cool tricks radar enabled is detecting a car in front of another car in
front of you.  For instance, say a Honda Civic is in front, followed by a
Ford Excursion.  The Honda slams on his brakes, but the Excursion guy is on
his phone and doesn't see the Honda until it's too late.  My radar-equipped
Tesla will slow down as soon as the Honda does, giving more time for cars
to react behind me.   It's literally saved the day on more than one
occasion.

Elon's theory is "People drive with vision only, they don't have Lidar or
Radar".  That's bullshit.  Driver assistance systems have to be superhuman
if we are going to let them have full authority.  It can't just be "as good
as a human", it has to be 100 or even 1000 times better than a human, or it
will never be allowed to assume full control.   Radar is cheap superhero
capability.

I think what happened is the semiconductor shortage impacted Tesla's radar
supply, so they found a work-around.


On Thu, May 27, 2021 at 11:16 AM EVDL Administrator via EV <
ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:

> Sometimes I really wonder about Tesla.  With the less than stellar
> reputation that autopilot already has, it seems odd that they would
> actually
> delete some of the system's "eyes."  For the sake of EVs in general, I
> sure
> hope they know what they're doing.
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Never been to Cleveland when the sun was shining.
> Even when it shines, it looks like rain.
>
>   -- Melanie Safka, "Between the Road Signs"
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
> ___
> Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
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Re: [EVDL] tesla now using cameras only

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

Sometimes I really wonder about Tesla.  With the less than stellar 
reputation that autopilot already has, it seems odd that they would actually 
delete some of the system's "eyes."  For the sake of EVs in general, I sure 
hope they know what they're doing.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
Never been to Cleveland when the sun was shining. 
Even when it shines, it looks like rain. 

  -- Melanie Safka, "Between the Road Signs"
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

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Re: [EVDL] tesla now using cameras only

[Jay Summet via EV]

The advantage of LIDAR is an accurate distance measurement (to every 
point in the sensors view).


Radar as a technology can give distance, but typically the units used in 
vehicles give "relative speed" instead, and are used to detect the 
distance to other moving vehicles.


Although they can detect fixed obstacles, they typically ignore them, as 
they ignore anything that is stationary because they don't have enough 
angular resolution to differentiate between the road surface and other 
objects on/near the road.


However, if a vehicle ahead of you starts to slow down or speed up, they 
can very reliably detect that.


Jay



On 5/27/21 12:23 PM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:

I can imagine that radar or lidar is only adding redundancy. An object 
"illuminated" by either of these from a head-on signal won't have any 
shadows or depth, making them mostly blobs. It seems at best, they could 
be used in conjunction with cameras, perhaps adding a bit of safety if 
the radar or lidar detected an obstruction that the cameras didn't.

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[EVDL] tesla now using cameras only

[Peri Hartman via EV]

Tesla phases out radar sensors, shifts to camera-based autopilot
https://www.seattletimes.com/business/tesla-phases-out-radar-sensors-shifts-to-camera-based-autopilot/

...
Musk has been famously opposed to lidar technology, which uses pulses of 
laser light to detect objects. He’s since soured on radar, which uses 
radio waves to do the same thing. Tesla’s sensor suite previously relied 
on radar as well as eight cameras.

...
“Beginning with deliveries in May 2021, Model 3 and Model Y vehicles 
built for the North American market will no longer be equipped with 
radar. Instead, these will be the first Tesla vehicles to rely on camera 
vision and neural net processing to deliver Autopilot, Full-Self Driving 
and certain active safety features.”

...

--

I can imagine that radar or lidar is only adding redundancy. An object 
"illuminated" by either of these from a head-on signal won't have any 
shadows or depth, making them mostly blobs. It seems at best, they could 
be used in conjunction with cameras, perhaps adding a bit of safety if 
the radar or lidar detected an obstruction that the cameras didn't.


Peri

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