Re: [EVDL] '91 BMW 318i conversion to electric

[Paul via EV]

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I’ve been following this thread a bit to see if there is anyone mentioning 
Damian Maguire (EVBMW) and the open inverter forum.  Check him out on Vimeo.  
He is all about converting BMWs using salvage components from various factory 
EVs.  The open inverter forum is a great resource as well.  One of his 
projects, the red arrow, started out  as a 1000EU BMW conversion to prove that 
you can use modern components and end up with an acceptable daily driver on a 
budget.

Regards,
Paul Wallace
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Re: [EVDL] '91 BMW 318i conversion to electric

[lektwik via EV]

>Nice to hear from you again, Roy!

You too David :-)

>I don't recall it being *quite* that bad.  IIRC, you could usually get
40-50
miles of range with only 1/3 of the vehicle weight in lead.   :-\

On a 75 degree day on level ground maybe. Drop temperature to 50 degrees
and what did you get?

>But I agree with your main point.  Once the Nissan Leaf and Tesla S were
established in the market, the days of EV conversions were numbered.  I can
see the effect in the EV list archive, with gradually declining numbers of
monthly posts starting in mid-2012.

The conversion market is healthy and strong, just completely different.
It's no longer a hobby market. Very few folks are doing it in their garages
at home. Companies like EV West in SoCal have a three or more years waiting
list. Startups that know what they are doing can find folks that will pay
the big bucks for a specialty conversion. It's the market for a cheap.
short range, lead sled that has collapsed, if it ever really existed. IIRC,
we used to say that to make a small fortune in the conversion business,
start with a large fortune :-)

>That said, I think there might still some valid reasons to convert.

I agree with the points you have made, but the original question was more
about "having it done" and not "doing it yourself". My thoughts on the
subject were geared more toward that. Not to beat the point to death but
buying a kit from a company to convert a Rabbit or similar vehicle into a
slow and short range lead sled is ancient history and an unacceptable
option. Just to buy a decent aftermarket BMS system like Orion is a big
expense and not for the fainthearted to try to set up and program.

>I've heard of really clean Citicars going for 5 figures, for example.

Some people will want one of those. Likely more for the cheese wedge
novelty and rarity than anything else. As someone who has driven a few,
even one upgraded to AC drive and lithium, I can't imagine anyone actually
wanting to daily drive one that has ever driven one. I would put them on
the top of the list as one of the ergonomically worst vehicles ever.

BTW, modern EVs are awesome compared to anything done 20 years ago. I've
driven multiple Teslas, a Rivian, and recently a friend got a Lucid Air GT
edition and let me drive it. It was the nicest and best driving car ever.
With 500+ miles of range and 800+ horsepower it's hard to beat. I must be
getting old because I lifted after putting the go pedal only halfway down
on the Lucid :-)


Take Care!
Roy

On Sun, Apr 28, 2024 at 2:07 PM EV List Lackey via EV 
wrote:

> On 27 Apr 2024 at 23:58, lektwik via EV wrote:
>
> > It's been years since I posted here
>
> Nice to hear from you again, Roy!
>
> > good luck telling someone they can only go 50 miles max on a charge now
> > and that 50% of vehicle weight in lead batteries is required to do it.
>
> I don't recall it being *quite* that bad.  IIRC, you could usually get
> 40-50
> miles of range with only 1/3 of the vehicle weight in lead.   :-\
>
> Years ago, Bob Rice wrote here about the Renault-based EFP Mars II that he
> worked on in the late 1960s.  The EV weighed about 4200lb all up, and the
> battery 1900lb.  That's ~45%.  Bob said its real-world range was 95 miles
> at
> highway speeds.
>
> But I agree with your main point.  Once the Nissan Leaf and Tesla S were
> established in the market, the days of EV conversions were numbered.  I
> can
> see the effect in the EV list archive, with gradually declining numbers of
> monthly posts starting in mid-2012.
>
> That said, I think there might still some valid reasons to convert.
>
> - As a technical challenge
>
> - To have an EV you can work on and improve yourself
>
> - To clean up a beloved classic and make it (one hopes) more reliable
>
> - To get a type or style of EV that no manufacturer currently offers, at
> least where you live
>
> > I've been predicting for years that unmolested examples of those early
> > clik-clak DC and lead-acid conversions are the future EV collector's
> > items. They are disappearing quickly.
>
> I think that that's more likely with the early modern production EVs.
> I've
> heard of really clean Citicars going for 5 figures, for example.
>
> But you might be right, and some conversions might appeal to collectors
> someday.
>
> I'm no expert, so don't take that as investment advice - or any other
> kind,
> for that matter.
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>  In every country, they make fun of city. In US you make fun of
>  Cleveland. In Russia, we make fun of Cleveland.
>
> --Yakov Smirnoff
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
> ___
> Address messages to 

Re: [EVDL] '91 BMW 318i conversion to electric

[EV List Lackey via EV]

On 27 Apr 2024 at 23:58, lektwik via EV wrote:

> It's been years since I posted here 

Nice to hear from you again, Roy!   

> good luck telling someone they can only go 50 miles max on a charge now
> and that 50% of vehicle weight in lead batteries is required to do it. 

I don't recall it being *quite* that bad.  IIRC, you could usually get 40-50 
miles of range with only 1/3 of the vehicle weight in lead.   :-\

Years ago, Bob Rice wrote here about the Renault-based EFP Mars II that he 
worked on in the late 1960s.  The EV weighed about 4200lb all up, and the 
battery 1900lb.  That's ~45%.  Bob said its real-world range was 95 miles at 
highway speeds.  

But I agree with your main point.  Once the Nissan Leaf and Tesla S were 
established in the market, the days of EV conversions were numbered.  I can 
see the effect in the EV list archive, with gradually declining numbers of 
monthly posts starting in mid-2012.

That said, I think there might still some valid reasons to convert.

- As a technical challenge

- To have an EV you can work on and improve yourself 

- To clean up a beloved classic and make it (one hopes) more reliable

- To get a type or style of EV that no manufacturer currently offers, at 
least where you live

> I've been predicting for years that unmolested examples of those early
> clik-clak DC and lead-acid conversions are the future EV collector's
> items. They are disappearing quickly. 

I think that that's more likely with the early modern production EVs.  I've 
heard of really clean Citicars going for 5 figures, for example.  

But you might be right, and some conversions might appeal to collectors 
someday.

I'm no expert, so don't take that as investment advice - or any other kind, 
for that matter.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

 In every country, they make fun of city. In US you make fun of 
 Cleveland. In Russia, we make fun of Cleveland.  

--Yakov Smirnoff
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

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Re: [EVDL] '91 BMW 318i conversion to electric

[Thos True via EV]

Hey Peri,
That is kinda what I have been kicking around lately.  I have one of my
Dad's final projects, a Geo Metro 72 volt commuter.
My plan is to swap out the lead acid batteries with a lithium pack, adding
the best. Should make a cute run around car!
-Tom True

On Sun, Apr 28, 2024, 7:02 AM Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:

> Actually, let me throw this idea around, and feel free to shoot holes in
> it. Can one still do a relatively cheap 1990s conversion ? Perhaps the
> real question is whether you really want to: no regen, not great power,
> poor range. If you do, ...
>
> I presume you can still get cheap DC motors and controllers. Of course,
> you can get lead-acid, but there might be another possibility. What
> about moderate sized backup power systems ? Since they are already
> designed to be stand alone, one doesn't have to trick them into working
> with a phantom car.
>
> Here are a few examples:
>
>
> https://www.amazon.com/Cloudenergy-Rechargeable-Lifetime-Overland-Off-Grid/dp/B0B9JWWXSY/ref=asc_df_B0B9JWWXSY
> 7.2kWh, 5kW output, 130 pounds, $1600
> (you could put in 3 of these, perhaps, for about 60 mile range)
>
> https://batteryevo.com/product/48v-husky-105ah-5-3-kwh/
> 5kWh, 5kW output, 100 pounds, $2000
>
>
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/145169131657?chn=ps=1=711-166974-028196-7=101=145169131657=2275367127251=c=pla=9033257==21021646205=168215069228=pla-2275367127251=9381015=5332630602=9033257_source=1
> 5.1kWh, 2.1kW output, 100 pounds, $1000
>
> Peri
>
>
>
> << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
>
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "lektwik via EV" 
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
> Cc: "lektwik" 
> Sent: 27-Apr-24 23:58:21
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] '91 BMW 318i conversion to electric
>
> >Howdy Folks
> >
> >It's been years since I posted here (ever since discussions of drag racing
> >were banned), but I do still read the EVDL on occasion and credit the
> folks
> >here with providing an initial crash course for me on EV technology.
> >
> >The conversion issue made me want to chime in. The days of inexpensive
> >lead-acid and DC motor conversions are long gone. I've been around this
> >industry for 25 years. It's a completely different animal now. There were
> >no factory EVs available then and folks were forced to accept extremely
> >limited range (good luck telling someone they can only go 50 miles max on
> a
> >charge now and that 50% of vehicle weight in lead batteries is required to
> >do it).
> >
> >IMHO, If you want to convert a modern car, your best bet by far is just to
> >get a factory made EV. You could buy a handful of Nissan Leafs by the time
> >you pay someone to do a modern vehicle conversion with decent power and
> >range. Just getting the onboard computerized systems of a modern vehicle
> to
> >play nice with a completely foreign drivetrain is a herculean task all by
> >itself. Plus you are pretty much tied to the person or shop doing the
> >conversion for maintenance or repair issues into the foreseeable future.
> >
> >In fact, there is little that's inexpensive or easy about it now compared
> >to then. The target market for conversions now is classic vehicles from
> >back in the days of ignition points and carburetors. Like a collector car
> >that a person would keep for decades.
> >
> >You need substantial bank to even consider having a nice conversion done
> >for you. A $100K+ price tag is not unusual, especially using brand new
> >components and including the cost of the donor vehicle. For that you could
> >likely find a Rivian, Lucid, or Tesla Plaid. Especially on the used
> market.
> >One positive aspect is that used EV components are now available from
> >wrecked EVs. We didn't have any of that back in the day. It's hard to beat
> >a Tesla rear drive setup.
> >
> >It's nice to see folks still involved here that were posting on the EVDL
> 25
> >years ago when I first got into EVs. I must say that some of those same
> >folks are recommending books on EV conversion that are like 25 years out
> of
> >date. I personally don't see this as being helpful to those new to EVs
> that
> >want to learn how modern ones operate or how to convert one, especially
> >with an abundance of free and modern info available on YouTube and other
> >online sources. Wanna learn how to set up an Orion BMS? There are videos
> on
> >that.
> >
> >Please remember that the days of 96 volt VW Rabbit lead slugs are long
> >gone. Though I've been predicting for years that unmolested examples of
> >those earl

Re: [EVDL] '91 BMW 318i conversion to electric

[Peri Hartman via EV]

Actually, let me throw this idea around, and feel free to shoot holes in 
it. Can one still do a relatively cheap 1990s conversion ? Perhaps the 
real question is whether you really want to: no regen, not great power, 
poor range. If you do, ...


I presume you can still get cheap DC motors and controllers. Of course, 
you can get lead-acid, but there might be another possibility. What 
about moderate sized backup power systems ? Since they are already 
designed to be stand alone, one doesn't have to trick them into working 
with a phantom car.


Here are a few examples:

https://www.amazon.com/Cloudenergy-Rechargeable-Lifetime-Overland-Off-Grid/dp/B0B9JWWXSY/ref=asc_df_B0B9JWWXSY
7.2kWh, 5kW output, 130 pounds, $1600
(you could put in 3 of these, perhaps, for about 60 mile range)

https://batteryevo.com/product/48v-husky-105ah-5-3-kwh/
5kWh, 5kW output, 100 pounds, $2000

https://www.ebay.com/itm/145169131657?chn=ps=1=711-166974-028196-7=101=145169131657=2275367127251=c=pla=9033257==21021646205=168215069228=pla-2275367127251=9381015=5332630602=9033257_source=1
5.1kWh, 2.1kW output, 100 pounds, $1000

Peri



<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>


-- Original Message --
From: "lektwik via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "lektwik" 
Sent: 27-Apr-24 23:58:21
Subject: Re: [EVDL] '91 BMW 318i conversion to electric


Howdy Folks

It's been years since I posted here (ever since discussions of drag racing
were banned), but I do still read the EVDL on occasion and credit the folks
here with providing an initial crash course for me on EV technology.

The conversion issue made me want to chime in. The days of inexpensive
lead-acid and DC motor conversions are long gone. I've been around this
industry for 25 years. It's a completely different animal now. There were
no factory EVs available then and folks were forced to accept extremely
limited range (good luck telling someone they can only go 50 miles max on a
charge now and that 50% of vehicle weight in lead batteries is required to
do it).

IMHO, If you want to convert a modern car, your best bet by far is just to
get a factory made EV. You could buy a handful of Nissan Leafs by the time
you pay someone to do a modern vehicle conversion with decent power and
range. Just getting the onboard computerized systems of a modern vehicle to
play nice with a completely foreign drivetrain is a herculean task all by
itself. Plus you are pretty much tied to the person or shop doing the
conversion for maintenance or repair issues into the foreseeable future.

In fact, there is little that's inexpensive or easy about it now compared
to then. The target market for conversions now is classic vehicles from
back in the days of ignition points and carburetors. Like a collector car
that a person would keep for decades.

You need substantial bank to even consider having a nice conversion done
for you. A $100K+ price tag is not unusual, especially using brand new
components and including the cost of the donor vehicle. For that you could
likely find a Rivian, Lucid, or Tesla Plaid. Especially on the used market.
One positive aspect is that used EV components are now available from
wrecked EVs. We didn't have any of that back in the day. It's hard to beat
a Tesla rear drive setup.

It's nice to see folks still involved here that were posting on the EVDL 25
years ago when I first got into EVs. I must say that some of those same
folks are recommending books on EV conversion that are like 25 years out of
date. I personally don't see this as being helpful to those new to EVs that
want to learn how modern ones operate or how to convert one, especially
with an abundance of free and modern info available on YouTube and other
online sources. Wanna learn how to set up an Orion BMS? There are videos on
that.

Please remember that the days of 96 volt VW Rabbit lead slugs are long
gone. Though I've been predicting for years that unmolested examples of
those early clik-clak DC and lead-acid conversions are the future EV
collector's items. They are disappearing quickly.


Roy LeMeur

On Fri, Apr 26, 2024 at 2:42 PM Harsha Godavari via EV 
wrote:




https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/how-volvo-landed-cheap-chinese-ev-us-shores-trade-war-2024-04-24/


 - Original Message -
 From: EV List Lackey via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
 To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org
 Cc: EV List Lackey evp...@drmm.net
 Sent: Thu, 25 Apr 2024 21:18:34 -0600 (MDT)
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] 91 BMW 318i conversion to electric

 On 25 Apr 2024 at 10:48, (-Phil-) via EV wrote:

  In our case, no OEM has stepped up to make a decent van with good
 range
  thats supremely reliable with a low cost-of-ownership.

 So what E-vans DO yall have there?

 I dont know about Asia, but there are several choices in Europe,
 most of
 them EPTOs of Diesel vans.

 Some listed here:

https://www.drivingelectric.com/bes

Re: [EVDL] '91 BMW 318i conversion to electric

[lektwik via EV]

Howdy Folks

It's been years since I posted here (ever since discussions of drag racing
were banned), but I do still read the EVDL on occasion and credit the folks
here with providing an initial crash course for me on EV technology.

The conversion issue made me want to chime in. The days of inexpensive
lead-acid and DC motor conversions are long gone. I've been around this
industry for 25 years. It's a completely different animal now. There were
no factory EVs available then and folks were forced to accept extremely
limited range (good luck telling someone they can only go 50 miles max on a
charge now and that 50% of vehicle weight in lead batteries is required to
do it).

IMHO, If you want to convert a modern car, your best bet by far is just to
get a factory made EV. You could buy a handful of Nissan Leafs by the time
you pay someone to do a modern vehicle conversion with decent power and
range. Just getting the onboard computerized systems of a modern vehicle to
play nice with a completely foreign drivetrain is a herculean task all by
itself. Plus you are pretty much tied to the person or shop doing the
conversion for maintenance or repair issues into the foreseeable future.

In fact, there is little that's inexpensive or easy about it now compared
to then. The target market for conversions now is classic vehicles from
back in the days of ignition points and carburetors. Like a collector car
that a person would keep for decades.

You need substantial bank to even consider having a nice conversion done
for you. A $100K+ price tag is not unusual, especially using brand new
components and including the cost of the donor vehicle. For that you could
likely find a Rivian, Lucid, or Tesla Plaid. Especially on the used market.
One positive aspect is that used EV components are now available from
wrecked EVs. We didn't have any of that back in the day. It's hard to beat
a Tesla rear drive setup.

It's nice to see folks still involved here that were posting on the EVDL 25
years ago when I first got into EVs. I must say that some of those same
folks are recommending books on EV conversion that are like 25 years out of
date. I personally don't see this as being helpful to those new to EVs that
want to learn how modern ones operate or how to convert one, especially
with an abundance of free and modern info available on YouTube and other
online sources. Wanna learn how to set up an Orion BMS? There are videos on
that.

Please remember that the days of 96 volt VW Rabbit lead slugs are long
gone. Though I've been predicting for years that unmolested examples of
those early clik-clak DC and lead-acid conversions are the future EV
collector's items. They are disappearing quickly.


Roy LeMeur

On Fri, Apr 26, 2024 at 2:42 PM Harsha Godavari via EV 
wrote:

>
>
> https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/how-volvo-landed-cheap-chinese-ev-us-shores-trade-war-2024-04-24/
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: EV List Lackey via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org
> Cc: EV List Lackey evp...@drmm.net
> Sent: Thu, 25 Apr 2024 21:18:34 -0600 (MDT)
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] 91 BMW 318i conversion to electric
>
> On 25 Apr 2024 at 10:48, (-Phil-) via EV wrote:
>
>  In our case, no OEM has stepped up to make a decent van with good
> range
>  thats supremely reliable with a low cost-of-ownership.
>
> So what E-vans DO yall have there?
>
> I dont know about Asia, but there are several choices in Europe,
> most of
> them EPTOs of Diesel vans.
>
> Some listed here:
>
> https://www.drivingelectric.com/best-cars/586/best-electric-vans
>
> Also small, medium, and large vans from Renault.  Theyve just
> updated their
> Kangoo and Master E-Tech vans.  The Master has a 3600 lb payload, and a
> WLTP
> range of 285 miles with the 87 kWh battery.
>
> Most of the EU brands, such as Citroen and Renault, dont have a US
> presence
> that I know of.  However, the Ford E-Transit and the VW ID Buzz Cargo are
> available there, right?
>
> Or is it mostly pickups rather than vans in the US?  (Tradespeople here
> usually drive vans, seldom pickups.)
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator  general lackey
>
> To reach me, dont reply to this message; I wont get it.  Use
> my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>  In politics, stupidity is not a handicap.
>
> -- Paul Graham
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
> ___
> Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
> No other addresses in TO and CC fields
> HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
>
>
> ___
> Address mes

Re: [EVDL] '91 BMW 318i conversion to electric

[EV List Lackey via EV]

On 27 Apr 2024 at 16:18, Dave Delman via EV wrote:

> Has anyone suggested looking at evalbum dot com and searching for BMWs? 

I did, but not very prominently, and an extra reminder is a good thing.

The EV Album is an outstanding resource, a grat place to see what's 
possible.  Make sure you check the "last updated" info which is in tiny 
print to the left of the main photo. Some of the entries date back to the 
late 1990s.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

 Never underestimate the ability of humans to overestimate their 
 ability. 

-- anonymous
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

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Re: [EVDL] '91 BMW 318i conversion to electric

[Dave Delman via EV]

Has anyone suggested looking at evalbum dot com and searching for BMWs? 

Thank you,
David Delman
eLectricDeLorean.com


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Re: [EVDL] '91 BMW 318i conversion to electric

[Harsha Godavari via EV]

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/how-volvo-landed-cheap-chinese-ev-us-shores-trade-war-2024-04-24/


- Original Message -
From: EV List Lackey via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: EV List Lackey evp...@drmm.net
Sent: Thu, 25 Apr 2024 21:18:34 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: [EVDL] 91 BMW 318i conversion to electric

On 25 Apr 2024 at 10:48, (-Phil-) via EV wrote:

 In our case, no OEM has stepped up to make a decent van with good range
 thats supremely reliable with a low cost-of-ownership. 

So what E-vans DO yall have there?

I dont know about Asia, but there are several choices in Europe, most of 
them EPTOs of Diesel vans.  

Some listed here:

https://www.drivingelectric.com/best-cars/586/best-electric-vans

Also small, medium, and large vans from Renault.  Theyve just updated 
their 
Kangoo and Master E-Tech vans.  The Master has a 3600 lb payload, and a WLTP 
range of 285 miles with the 87 kWh battery.

Most of the EU brands, such as Citroen and Renault, dont have a US 
presence 
that I know of.  However, the Ford E-Transit and the VW ID Buzz Cargo are 
available there, right?  

Or is it mostly pickups rather than vans in the US?  (Tradespeople here 
usually drive vans, seldom pickups.)

David Roden, EVDL moderator  general lackey

To reach me, dont reply to this message; I wont get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

 In politics, stupidity is not a handicap.

-- Paul Graham

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

___
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No other addresses in TO and CC fields
HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/


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Re: [EVDL] '91 BMW 318i conversion to electric

[EV List Lackey via EV]

On 25 Apr 2024 at 10:48, (-Phil-) via EV wrote:

> In our case, no OEM has stepped up to make a decent van with good range
> that's supremely reliable with a low cost-of-ownership. 

So what E-vans DO y'all have there?

I don't know about Asia, but there are several choices in Europe, most of 
them EPTOs of Diesel vans.  

Some listed here:

https://www.drivingelectric.com/best-cars/586/best-electric-vans

Also small, medium, and large vans from Renault.  They've just updated their 
Kangoo and Master E-Tech vans.  The Master has a 3600 lb payload, and a WLTP 
range of 285 miles with the 87 kWh battery.

Most of the EU brands, such as Citroen and Renault, don't have a US presence 
that I know of.  However, the Ford E-Transit and the VW ID Buzz Cargo are 
available there, right?  

Or is it mostly pickups rather than vans in the US?  (Tradespeople here 
usually drive vans, seldom pickups.)

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
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Re: [EVDL] '91 BMW 318i conversion to electric

[EV List Lackey via EV]

On 26 Apr 2024 at 5:27, Bill Dube via EV wrote:

> What is important to keep in mind is that BYD is is now offering a 
> Corrola-sized EV for about $15k.

If I understand the news stories right, that's the $ equivalent to its price 
in China.  Chinese vehicles always cost more in higher-income nations.  The 
reasons for this will be left as an exercise for the reader. 

Example: Renault launched their City K-ZE EV in 2019 in China, at the 
equivalent of US$8,700. A somewhat larger and safer version arrived in 
Europe in 2021 as the Dacia Spring.  There it cost 17,400 euros (about 
US$19k) - more than double.

I expect BYD's Qin Plus will be available in Europe at some point. I don't 
think it will cost $15k there.  A wild guess would be around $25k.  

I'd be more surprised to see it offered at any price in the US, but who 
knows?

That in no way negates Bill's suggestion to scarf a donor drivetrain from a 
production EV.

Just don't forget that there can still be significant engineering involved. 
One problem you don't have with generic motors and controllers is 
"transplant rejection." Someone - most likely you - has to find a way to 
convince the drive system's processors that they're still rolling along in 
their original home.

Bolting a generic motor to the BMW's factory trans would indeed probably be 
less efficient.  But depending on your background, the engineering problems 
might be easier for you to tackle.

Either way, you'd have to find a way to cram a battery into a car not 
designed to hold it.

It's not a trivial job, nor cheap, but maybe it's worth it if you really 
love the car AND it's in very good shape.


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Re: [EVDL] '91 BMW 318i conversion to electric/j

[jerry freedomev via EV]

 


Hi All,   I'm going with Phil here as the best engineered, lowest cost 
conversion now is swapping the whole Tesla rear end subframe and buying a 
control card from openinverter which has control cards  other drives too.And 
so, so many totaled the price should be fairly low.  DC controllers of any 
power just cost too much new comes free with the subframe.And the 3 rear will 
match the power, sportiness of the BMW better than any other I know of. I lot 
of examples on youtube to follow.For people who want to build their own body, 
using a 3 chassis is hard to beat.  Look up those who are taking everything off 
a 3 they can and still runs. Leroy is one.  'Leroy Tesla racing' should pop it 
up.Jerry Dycus
On 4/26/2024 4:14 AM, (-Phil-) via EV wrote:
> In this age I declare DC dead.  It would be hard to go wrong if you can
> cram a Tesla Model 3 rear drive unit in there, they are some of the most
> reliable and efficient units made.  Unless you do something special (such
> as SepEx) you don't get regen with DC.  This takes a large efficiency hit,
> especially in local city driving.
>
> We do OEM-level conversions of the Ram Promaster to all-electric using the
> Tesla Model 3 Drive unit.  They have been proven to be almost bomb-proof
> even lugging very heavy vans around.
>
> But that said, a Conversion is non-trivial.  We did 2 years of engineering
> to bring our vans to market.  It's a long project even for someone with
> deep mechanical and electrical experience.  It can be very rewarding, but
> it's not something I'd suggest unless you have a lot of time (such as being
> retired) and the skills.  (Either that or be willing to pay $50k+
> minimum)  Some high-quality one-off conversions done by skilled
> professionals routinely end up in the $200k range.
>
> One common "old school" method was to bolt a DC motor to an old ICE
> transmission with an adapter plate.  These drivelines are highly lossy,
> just the right-angle conversion at the hypoid pinion drive in the rear-end
> can suck down over a kilowatt of loss!  There's a reason why you see the
> lifted truck guys put big aluminum-finned covers on them.  Then there's
> the transmission...  Plus you get no regen.  Yeah it's mechanically
> easier, but you end up with a short range low-performance conversion.
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 25, 2024 at 3:52 AM bill devos via EV  wrote:
>
>> Thank you, Lee. I will definitely look up these publications. I believe I
>> did look at one of these last year and have to admit I was a bit blown over
>> by the depth of the discussion for instance, how does one decide whether to
>> go AC or DC?
>> Bill devos. Rochester, New York.
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>
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Re: [EVDL] '91 BMW 318i conversion to electric

[Thos True via EV]

Chiming in here,
My Dad (known as Father Time) and I built several conversions for over a
decade (pre lithium). We rarely spent more than 5 or 10 thousand doing most
of them.
Bear in mind that we were careful about the condition of the donor vehicle.
We usually did the machining in house, and often bought or traded for
existing projects to cannibalize for the more pricey parts. On any
given day, you can find an EV project for sale, usually with a defective
battery pack for a very reasonable price.
Of course, the project needs to fit your basic needs, with a similar weight
and voltage class, but adapter plates are available (or can be made at a
machine shop), along with the battery boxes to fit the design needs of the
vehicle.
One of the cool truths of EV's is that the motor, controller and battery
pack are basically independent of each other (I realize that some AC
systems are more picky about matching the controller than others), so you
start with what you can afford and upgrade as the opportunities present
themselves. We changed battery systems several times during the racing
career of our Silver Bullet 280ZX from the late 1990's until retiring it in
2005. During that time we enjoyed the experience of setting 8 consecutive
world speed records, and inspiring the Nedra rule of participating in one
voltage class per event (we melted a battery post setting a record, and
kept reducing the voltage in 12V increments from 144V until Dave Cloud
stopped us from running in the 96V class, setting new records in each as we
went).
Naturally, if you need to hire the work done, it will be very costly. In
that case, you are probably better off buying a manufactured vehicle with a
warranty.
- My 2 Watt's worth,
-Tom True

On Thu, Apr 25, 2024, 1:27 PM EV List Lackey via EV 
wrote:

> On 25 Apr 2024 at 9:14, (-Phil-) via EV wrote:
>
> > One common "old school" method was to bolt a DC motor to an old ICE
> > transmission with an adapter plate ... it's mechanically easier, but
> > you end up with a short range low-performance conversion.
>
> Exhibit B is the Solectria Force.  It was an early- to mid-1990s
> conversion
> of the Geo Metro (Suzuki Swift).  With regenerative braking from a high-
> efficiency AC induction drive, and a low-friction custom aluminum
> transaxle,
> it achieved better than 150 Wh/mile in city driving.
>
> But it wasn't exactly a shadetree conversion.  The folks who designed it
> had
> engineering degrees from MIT.
>
> Also, a Geo Metro and a BMW 3 are almost from different planets.
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
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>
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>  up its own fundament.
>
> -- JG Ballard
>
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Re: [EVDL] '91 BMW 318i conversion to electric

[EV List Lackey via EV]

On 25 Apr 2024 at 9:14, (-Phil-) via EV wrote:

> One common "old school" method was to bolt a DC motor to an old ICE
> transmission with an adapter plate ... it's mechanically easier, but
> you end up with a short range low-performance conversion.

Exhibit B is the Solectria Force.  It was an early- to mid-1990s conversion 
of the Geo Metro (Suzuki Swift).  With regenerative braking from a high-
efficiency AC induction drive, and a low-friction custom aluminum transaxle, 
it achieved better than 150 Wh/mile in city driving.  

But it wasn't exactly a shadetree conversion.  The folks who designed it had 
engineering degrees from MIT.

Also, a Geo Metro and a BMW 3 are almost from different planets.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

 Finnegans Wake is the best example of modernism disappearing 
 up its own fundament. 

-- JG Ballard

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Re: [EVDL] '91 BMW 318i conversion to electric

[bill devos via EV]

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Re: [EVDL] '91 BMW 318i conversion to electric

[(-Phil-) via EV]

Yes, I've owned a 325 long ago.  What I'm saying is that no matter what
form the conversion takes, it's a lot more time and money than you expect,
almost without exception.  I don't know your skills, but it seems like you
are looking to pay someone to do most of the work, so expect multiple tens
of thousands for a quality job.   I would never advise taking on a
conversion without native skills.  Even if you pay a lot to get it done and
it turns out ok, you still are now beholden to that one person or shop if
anything goes wrong, and chances are almost assured it will.

If the motivation is to save a car with a blown engine and get a low-cost
EV, this is not going to happen.

Sorry to be a downer


On Thu, Apr 25, 2024 at 11:29 AM bill devos  wrote:

> So you probably know the 318 is RWD now.  To put a Tesla motor in the rear
> would require removing transmission and rear pumpkin and reworking the
> connection to the rear wheels, right?  That’s what you’re alluding to
> regarding  engineering, time and money?  Bill
>
> William J. DeVos, AIA
> Architect
> 237 Rockingham Street
> Rochester, NY   14620
> (585) 435-0364
> >
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 25, 2024 at 12:15 PM (-Phil-)  wrote:
>
>> In this age I declare DC dead.   It would be hard to go wrong if you can
>> cram a Tesla Model 3 rear drive unit in there, they are some of the most
>> reliable and efficient units made.   Unless you do something special (such
>> as SepEx) you don't get regen with DC.  This takes a large efficiency hit,
>> especially in local city driving.
>>
>> We do OEM-level conversions of the Ram Promaster to all-electric using
>> the Tesla Model 3 Drive unit.   They have been proven to be almost
>> bomb-proof even lugging very heavy vans around.
>>
>> But that said, a Conversion is non-trivial.  We did 2 years of
>> engineering to bring our vans to market.   It's a long project even for
>> someone with deep mechanical and electrical experience.   It can be very
>> rewarding, but it's not something I'd suggest unless you have a lot of time
>> (such as being retired) and the skills.  (Either that or be willing to pay
>> $50k+ minimum)   Some high-quality one-off conversions done by skilled
>> professionals routinely end up in the $200k range.
>>
>> One common "old school" method was to bolt a DC motor to an old ICE
>> transmission with an adapter plate.  These drivelines are highly lossy,
>> just the right-angle conversion at the hypoid pinion drive in the rear-end
>> can suck down over a kilowatt of loss!  There's a reason why you see the
>> lifted truck guys put big aluminum-finned covers on them.   Then there's
>> the transmission...   Plus you get no regen.   Yeah it's mechanically
>> easier, but you end up with a short range low-performance conversion.
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 25, 2024 at 3:52 AM bill devos via EV 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Thank you, Lee. I will definitely look up these publications. I believe
>>> I did look at one of these last year and have to admit I was a bit blown
>>> over by the depth of the discussion for instance, how does one decide
>>> whether to go AC or DC?
>>> Bill devos. Rochester, New York.
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>>
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Re: [EVDL] '91 BMW 318i conversion to electric

[bill devos via EV]

So you probably know the 318 is RWD now.  To put a Tesla motor in the rear
would require removing transmission and rear pumpkin and reworking the
connection to the rear wheels, right?  That’s what you’re alluding to
regarding  engineering, time and money?  Bill

William J. DeVos, AIA
Architect
237 Rockingham Street
Rochester, NY   14620
(585) 435-0364
>


On Thu, Apr 25, 2024 at 12:15 PM (-Phil-)  wrote:

> In this age I declare DC dead.   It would be hard to go wrong if you can
> cram a Tesla Model 3 rear drive unit in there, they are some of the most
> reliable and efficient units made.   Unless you do something special (such
> as SepEx) you don't get regen with DC.  This takes a large efficiency hit,
> especially in local city driving.
>
> We do OEM-level conversions of the Ram Promaster to all-electric using the
> Tesla Model 3 Drive unit.   They have been proven to be almost bomb-proof
> even lugging very heavy vans around.
>
> But that said, a Conversion is non-trivial.  We did 2 years of engineering
> to bring our vans to market.   It's a long project even for someone with
> deep mechanical and electrical experience.   It can be very rewarding, but
> it's not something I'd suggest unless you have a lot of time (such as being
> retired) and the skills.  (Either that or be willing to pay $50k+
> minimum)   Some high-quality one-off conversions done by skilled
> professionals routinely end up in the $200k range.
>
> One common "old school" method was to bolt a DC motor to an old ICE
> transmission with an adapter plate.  These drivelines are highly lossy,
> just the right-angle conversion at the hypoid pinion drive in the rear-end
> can suck down over a kilowatt of loss!  There's a reason why you see the
> lifted truck guys put big aluminum-finned covers on them.   Then there's
> the transmission...   Plus you get no regen.   Yeah it's mechanically
> easier, but you end up with a short range low-performance conversion.
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 25, 2024 at 3:52 AM bill devos via EV 
> wrote:
>
>> Thank you, Lee. I will definitely look up these publications. I believe I
>> did look at one of these last year and have to admit I was a bit blown over
>> by the depth of the discussion for instance, how does one decide whether to
>> go AC or DC?
>> Bill devos. Rochester, New York.
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>
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Re: [EVDL] '91 BMW 318i conversion to electric

[(-Phil-) via EV]

Yeah, people doing one-off conversions today are not (should not) be doing
it for "low cost", that's just not possible.  The motivation should only be
borne out of love for the car you want to convert.   In our case, no OEM
has stepped up to make a decent van with good range that's supremely
reliable with a low cost-of-ownership.  When they do, we will probably stop
converting.

On Thu, Apr 25, 2024 at 10:29 AM Bill Dube via EV  wrote:

> What is important to keep in mind is that BYD is is now offering a
> Corrola-sized EV for about $15k.
>
> https://electrek.co/2024/02/19/byd-launches-15k-qin-plus-ev-kicking-off-price-war-gas-cars/
>
> It is impossible to build your own EV for even double this price, even
> getting all the labor for free.
>
> It would likely be less expensive to buy a brand new $15k BYD and move
> all the components into your motorless BMW. Seriously.
>
> In "days of yor" there were no OEM EVs to be bought, so we built them
> ourselves. This is no longer the case.
>
> Bill D.
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] '91 BMW 318i conversion to electric

[Bill Dube via EV]

What is important to keep in mind is that BYD is is now offering a 
Corrola-sized EV for about $15k.

https://electrek.co/2024/02/19/byd-launches-15k-qin-plus-ev-kicking-off-price-war-gas-cars/

It is impossible to build your own EV for even double this price, even 
getting all the labor for free.


It would likely be less expensive to buy a brand new $15k BYD and move 
all the components into your motorless BMW. Seriously.


In "days of yor" there were no OEM EVs to be bought, so we built them 
ourselves. This is no longer the case.


Bill D.

On 4/26/2024 4:14 AM, (-Phil-) via EV wrote:

In this age I declare DC dead.   It would be hard to go wrong if you can
cram a Tesla Model 3 rear drive unit in there, they are some of the most
reliable and efficient units made.   Unless you do something special (such
as SepEx) you don't get regen with DC.  This takes a large efficiency hit,
especially in local city driving.

We do OEM-level conversions of the Ram Promaster to all-electric using the
Tesla Model 3 Drive unit.   They have been proven to be almost bomb-proof
even lugging very heavy vans around.

But that said, a Conversion is non-trivial.  We did 2 years of engineering
to bring our vans to market.   It's a long project even for someone with
deep mechanical and electrical experience.   It can be very rewarding, but
it's not something I'd suggest unless you have a lot of time (such as being
retired) and the skills.  (Either that or be willing to pay $50k+
minimum)   Some high-quality one-off conversions done by skilled
professionals routinely end up in the $200k range.

One common "old school" method was to bolt a DC motor to an old ICE
transmission with an adapter plate.  These drivelines are highly lossy,
just the right-angle conversion at the hypoid pinion drive in the rear-end
can suck down over a kilowatt of loss!  There's a reason why you see the
lifted truck guys put big aluminum-finned covers on them.   Then there's
the transmission...   Plus you get no regen.   Yeah it's mechanically
easier, but you end up with a short range low-performance conversion.


On Thu, Apr 25, 2024 at 3:52 AM bill devos via EV  wrote:


Thank you, Lee. I will definitely look up these publications. I believe I
did look at one of these last year and have to admit I was a bit blown over
by the depth of the discussion for instance, how does one decide whether to
go AC or DC?
Bill devos. Rochester, New York.

Sent from my iPhone



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Re: [EVDL] '91 BMW 318i conversion to electric

[(-Phil-) via EV]

In this age I declare DC dead.   It would be hard to go wrong if you can
cram a Tesla Model 3 rear drive unit in there, they are some of the most
reliable and efficient units made.   Unless you do something special (such
as SepEx) you don't get regen with DC.  This takes a large efficiency hit,
especially in local city driving.

We do OEM-level conversions of the Ram Promaster to all-electric using the
Tesla Model 3 Drive unit.   They have been proven to be almost bomb-proof
even lugging very heavy vans around.

But that said, a Conversion is non-trivial.  We did 2 years of engineering
to bring our vans to market.   It's a long project even for someone with
deep mechanical and electrical experience.   It can be very rewarding, but
it's not something I'd suggest unless you have a lot of time (such as being
retired) and the skills.  (Either that or be willing to pay $50k+
minimum)   Some high-quality one-off conversions done by skilled
professionals routinely end up in the $200k range.

One common "old school" method was to bolt a DC motor to an old ICE
transmission with an adapter plate.  These drivelines are highly lossy,
just the right-angle conversion at the hypoid pinion drive in the rear-end
can suck down over a kilowatt of loss!  There's a reason why you see the
lifted truck guys put big aluminum-finned covers on them.   Then there's
the transmission...   Plus you get no regen.   Yeah it's mechanically
easier, but you end up with a short range low-performance conversion.


On Thu, Apr 25, 2024 at 3:52 AM bill devos via EV  wrote:

> Thank you, Lee. I will definitely look up these publications. I believe I
> did look at one of these last year and have to admit I was a bit blown over
> by the depth of the discussion for instance, how does one decide whether to
> go AC or DC?
> Bill devos. Rochester, New York.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] '91 BMW 318i conversion to electric

[bill devos via EV]

Thank you, Lee. I will definitely look up these publications. I believe I did 
look at one of these last year and have to admit I was a bit blown over by the 
depth of the discussion for instance, how does one decide whether to go AC or 
DC?
Bill devos. Rochester, New York.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 24, 2024, at 11:31 PM, Lee Hart  wrote:
> 
> Hi Bill. Welcome to the EV Discussion List!
> 
> Converting a car can be as big or as small a project as you like. I've been 
> driving and converting EVs since the 1970's, and been on the EVDL a long 
> time. I've seen everything from $1000 conversions with cheap surplus parts, 
> to $100k conversions that rival factory fit and finish and have race car 
> performance.
> 
> Since your BMW is a '91 and this is your first conversion, I would suggest 
> keeping it simple. Look for the book "Build your own electric vehicle" by Bob 
> Brant. It does a great job explaining the ins and outs of 1990's conversions.
> 
> There are 2nd and 3rd editions of this book by a different author, Seth 
> Leitman. He added a lot of new material to bring the theory and parts 
> availability into the current century. However, it is weaker on the actual 
> techniques for using these newer parts and materials.
> 
> "Convert It!" by Mike Brown and Shari Prange is another great book on classic 
> car conversions. It too has been edited and expanded into the current century 
> by another author, Ron Toms.
> 
> Finding someone local to help that has done it before is important! Books, 
> emails, and videos can only go so far. They can save you from a lot of 
> mistakes and expense.
> 
> Happy hacking!
> Lee Hart
> --
> Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James
> --
> Lee A. Hart https://www.sunrise-ev.com
> 
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Re: [EVDL] '91 BMW 318i conversion to electric

[Lee Hart via EV]

Hi Bill. Welcome to the EV Discussion List!

Converting a car can be as big or as small a project as you like. I've been 
driving and converting EVs since the 1970's, and been on the EVDL a long time. 
I've seen everything from $1000 conversions with cheap surplus parts, to $100k 
conversions that rival factory fit and finish and have race car performance.

Since your BMW is a '91 and this is your first conversion, I would suggest 
keeping it simple. Look for the book "Build your own electric vehicle" by Bob 
Brant. It does a great job explaining the ins and outs of 1990's conversions.

There are 2nd and 3rd editions of this book by a different author, Seth 
Leitman. He added a lot of new material to bring the theory and parts 
availability into the current century. However, it is weaker on the actual 
techniques for using these newer parts and materials.

"Convert It!" by Mike Brown and Shari Prange is another great book on classic 
car conversions. It too has been edited and expanded into the current century 
by another author, Ron Toms.

Finding someone local to help that has done it before is important! Books, 
emails, and videos can only go so far. They can save you from a lot of mistakes 
and expense.

Happy hacking!
Lee Hart
--
Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James
--
Lee A. Hart https://www.sunrise-ev.com

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Re: [EVDL] '91 BMW 318i conversion to electric

[EV List Lackey via EV]

Hi Bill!  Pretty far to go, I know, but here's someone who could probably 
help you:

https://greenshedconversions.com/

That's Steve Clunn's conversion operation.  Steve's a member of this list 
but hasn't posted very much in recent years - busy, I guess.

Maybe someone else knows of a conversion service closer to you.

For inspiration, you might look here:

http://evalbum.com/type/BMW

Keep us posted!

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

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 People don't sleep enough, and they all seem to be hunting 
 something that can't be caught.  You think you're the dominant 
 species just because you go to the bathroom in a bowl instead 
 of a box.  But who's cleaning up after whom? 

   -- Souseme, "Felines of New York"
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